Exhausted 24/7 while on cycle...help

Wudog

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This is now my 5th cycle. I have had experience with Test E, Tren, EQ, Dboll, Winny, and a few other things. This was my first time trying superdrol. I am currently just into my 7th week. The cycle looks as follows:

Weeks 1-4 Beastdrol 20/20/30/30 ed
Weeks 1-12 Test E 1,000mg/ew

Supplements:

3.5g fish oil ed
3g flaxseed oil ed
multi
milk thistle
whey protein
casein protein

I am tired just about 24/7. Tired to the point where I can just always sleep more, take a nap, yawning, the whole nine yards. I even sometimes yawn while working out, even though my workouts are always top notch. I cannot figure this out. I thought it had something to do with the Beast, but I have now been off of that for about 3 weeks. I'm still tired all the dang time. I basically just workout, go to class, eat, and sleep. It's tough staying up past like 9pm, even when I sleep in till 1 or 2pm. I am eating plenty of carbs so I am not carb depleted or anything.

Anyone have any ideas?
 
TripDog

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If you're exhausted on a test cycle...Umm you got bunk test...
 
Wudog

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If you're exhausted on a test cycle...Umm you got bunk test...
I can gurantee you I don't. I've been hitting PR's on lifts and wake up every day not feeling sore at all. My strength continues to jump up every week and not by like 5lbs a lift, like 15-20. Way past natural growth.
 
TripDog

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I can gurantee you I don't. I've been hitting PR's on lifts and wake up every day not feeling sore at all. My strength continues to jump up every week and not by like 5lbs a lift, like 15-20. Way past natural growth.
Interesting, I really don't know what could be the issue then. How has your body weight changed since you started the cycle, and any anti aromatase use with it?
 
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dsade

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Superdrol without enough carbs = lethargy.

Up your carbs.
 
TripDog

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Superdrol without enough carbs = lethargy.

Up your carbs.
If beastdrol is superdrol, then yes that is a very accurate equation.
 
dsade

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If beastdrol is superdrol, then yes that is a very accurate equation.
When we did that exclusive run of Designer's Superdrol through Bulk Nutrition back in 2004, I grabbed THE FIRST bottle that arrived.

Took me a few days to figure out why I felt like total hell, but once I upped carbs everything went great.
 
TripDog

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When we did that exclusive run of Designer's Superdrol through Bulk Nutrition back in 2004, I grabbed THE FIRST bottle that arrived.

Took me a few days to figure out why I felt like total hell, but once I upped carbs everything went great.
Yea, I still have a bottle and a half of that version, and got a european (London) version through Dr.D called Genetic SD.
 
dsade

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Yea, I still have a bottle and a half of that version, and got a european (London) version through Dr.D called Genetic SD.
I've tried clones since then and hated every one.
 
TripDog

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I've tried clones since then and hated every one.
I agree, nothing is like the original run of Superdrol. Great compound.
 
EasyEJL

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I have an original DS bottle that I haven't opened... but he stopped the superdrol 3 weeks ago, so its not that.

I'd have to wonder if its something else going on medically. No real easy way to tell what though.
 
dsade

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When did you have your thyroid last checked?
 
Dragon13

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Pretty sure this is the same guy who had a thread about his possible high blood pressure. Well guess what OP? Lethargy is a symptom of high blood pressure. 1g of test + Superdrol at your height and weight is a perfect storm for hypertension. Check your BP.
 
Wudog

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I have been off the SD for 3 weeks, that should have no bearing on why I feel like this. I don't have the attacks like I was having while on SD that I felt was BP related.

I'm just tired, like all the damn time. I have gained tons of weight and strength on this cycle, if I wasn't continue to gain constantly I would just cut it short. I guess I will have my friend come over and check my bp make sure it's not all ****ed up. There just has to be something else going on to make me feel like this!
 
schwellington

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When we did that exclusive run of Designer's Superdrol through Bulk Nutrition back in 2004, I grabbed THE FIRST bottle that arrived.

Took me a few days to figure out why I felt like total hell, but once I upped carbs everything went great.
what is your science here?

There is no proof that SD with low carbs causes lethargy


it has been reported yes, but i know people who have run it in a cut with low carbs and been fine


so i do not think sd causes this but then again i have no science either....none of us do since sd isnt going to be researched by those in the medical field
 
UnrealMachine

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what is your science here?

There is no proof that SD with low carbs causes lethargy


it has been reported yes, but i know people who have run it in a cut with low carbs and been fine


so i do not think sd causes this but then again i have no science either....none of us do since sd isnt going to be researched by those in the medical field
Lots of people get lethargy on SD and it is alleviated by increasing carbs. I read about this a lot.
But everybody's carb response is different... I can do 0 carbs on SD and I'm fine... I can go keto and my energy is unaffected, that is just how I respond... high carbs makes me fat too.

I would expect BP must be very high to cause lethargy on that scale... I have had elevated BP on cycle, we all have, but waking up at 1pm and falling asleep at 9pm is unimaginable for me, I've never slept that much in my entire life.

Consider an alternative theory
Your test is a different steroid.
 
Evan Bageris

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Tripdog asked the question but I didn't see an answer. I have gone through periods of sleeping 20 hours a day and after extensive bloodwork and speaking with numerous sleep specialist and endocrinologists my first thought when I saw your post was to ask if you are running an AI. The serms have some effect on daytime sleepiness but the issue of free estrogen levels and fatigue really came to light with the introduction of Arimidex. Aromasin, Letrozole etc. followed and people ended up gunning for near zero estrogen levels. Often the extreme lethargy was blamed on contest dieting but estrogen appears essential for vigilance. Too much cortisol inhibition can of course leave you exhausted as well. The SD is supposed to have some anti estrogenic effect so I ask again, what are you using for estrogen control? It is almost always just a matter of reducing the dosage if an AI is the culprit. The other very simple explanation is that you are just growing at a rate that requires ATP uncoupling throughout the day to provide the catalyst for a massive increase in protein synthesis. D-ribose and Creatine will help anyone with fatigue issues. Another common culprit is an allergy of any kind, but gluten and lactose and even casein are very common and anytime we are compromising our immune system in any way we are opening up to developing food allergies. I developed an allergy to oats and that was all I wanted to eat. I missed a semester of school because of oats and eventually had to count getting out of bed to pee was my main goal for the day. I stopped the oats and now have much loftier goals. I wish you the best, check your temp upon rising on the off chance that there is a thyroid issue but I don't think you would be seeing such gains. Both progesterone and estrogen over suppression can exhaust a man. I hope it is that simple.
 
TripDog

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Tripdog asked the question but I didn't see an answer. I have gone through periods of sleeping 20 hours a day and after extensive bloodwork and speaking with numerous sleep specialist and endocrinologists my first thought when I saw your post was to ask if you are running an AI. The serms have some effect on daytime sleepiness but the issue of free estrogen levels and fatigue really came to light with the introduction of Arimidex. Aromasin, Letrozole etc. followed and people ended up gunning for near zero estrogen levels. Often the extreme lethargy was blamed on contest dieting but estrogen appears essential for vigilance. Too much cortisol inhibition can of course leave you exhausted as well. The SD is supposed to have some anti estrogenic effect so I ask again, what are you using for estrogen control? It is almost always just a matter of reducing the dosage if an AI is the culprit. The other very simple explanation is that you are just growing at a rate that requires ATP uncoupling throughout the day to provide the catalyst for a massive increase in protein synthesis. D-ribose and Creatine will help anyone with fatigue issues. Another common culprit is an allergy of any kind, but gluten and lactose and even casein are very common and anytime we are compromising our immune system in any way we are opening up to developing food allergies. I developed an allergy to oats and that was all I wanted to eat. I missed a semester of school because of oats and eventually had to count getting out of bed to pee was my main goal for the day. I stopped the oats and now have much loftier goals. I wish you the best, check your temp upon rising on the off chance that there is a thyroid issue but I don't think you would be seeing such gains. Both progesterone and estrogen over suppression can exhaust a man. I hope it is that simple.
Yea, I am currious about what he is or isn't taking in regards to hormone stabilization/manipulation.
 

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i took one cap aromasin (20mg) for the last 2 weeks, im f`ing exhausted all day long as well. Im stopping the Aro this week,or switching to e3d, its affecting me at work, and have a lack of motivation for training. If you are on a AI, i would try lowering the dose or cutting it al out.
 
waynaferd

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nothing to add, but this is def. interesting stuff!
 

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Get a blood-test done and check your hormones and thyroid.
If your test is high, its real. If your test is in the ****ter, you're pinning some other AAS.
The blood test will also rule out diabetes and hypothyroidism (so get your blood sugar and thyroid checked).
 
biggfly

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Tripdog asked the question but I didn't see an answer. I have gone through periods of sleeping 20 hours a day and after extensive bloodwork and speaking with numerous sleep specialist and endocrinologists my first thought when I saw your post was to ask if you are running an AI. The serms have some effect on daytime sleepiness but the issue of free estrogen levels and fatigue really came to light with the introduction of Arimidex. Aromasin, Letrozole etc. followed and people ended up gunning for near zero estrogen levels. Often the extreme lethargy was blamed on contest dieting but estrogen appears essential for vigilance. Too much cortisol inhibition can of course leave you exhausted as well. The SD is supposed to have some anti estrogenic effect so I ask again, what are you using for estrogen control? It is almost always just a matter of reducing the dosage if an AI is the culprit. The other very simple explanation is that you are just growing at a rate that requires ATP uncoupling throughout the day to provide the catalyst for a massive increase in protein synthesis. D-ribose and Creatine will help anyone with fatigue issues. Another common culprit is an allergy of any kind, but gluten and lactose and even casein are very common and anytime we are compromising our immune system in any way we are opening up to developing food allergies. I developed an allergy to oats and that was all I wanted to eat. I missed a semester of school because of oats and eventually had to count getting out of bed to pee was my main goal for the day. I stopped the oats and now have much loftier goals. I wish you the best, check your temp upon rising on the off chance that there is a thyroid issue but I don't think you would be seeing such gains. Both progesterone and estrogen over suppression can exhaust a man. I hope it is that simple.

Very interesting. I am just finishing up some Letro, and I am tired as a mofo all day. Not as much as the OP, but I can sleep til noon or one easy, and have to MAKE myself get up at that, which before the letro, no way no how. Up early and lots of energy and vigilance. Glad you posted this. I am tapering off now, so we'll see how the energy level is affected.
 
GLHF

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Let me guess. This is ur first time using a gram right. It's the test bro it happens to so manny people. I ran exact same cycle just two two week pulses of m drol. I felt just like that. Drop down the test.
 
TripDog

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recently i had a similar problem with beastdrol and headaches and also slight lethargy...i was told by some of the AM boys to up my carb intake and it worked a treat. FEEL GREAT NOW!
 
Trauma1

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This is now my 5th cycle. I have had experience with Test E, Tren, EQ, Dboll, Winny, and a few other things. This was my first time trying superdrol. I am currently just into my 7th week. The cycle looks as follows:

Weeks 1-4 Beastdrol 20/20/30/30 ed
Weeks 1-12 Test E 1,000mg/ew

Supplements:

3.5g fish oil ed
3g flaxseed oil ed
multi
milk thistle
whey protein
casein protein

I am tired just about 24/7. Tired to the point where I can just always sleep more, take a nap, yawning, the whole nine yards. I even sometimes yawn while working out, even though my workouts are always top notch. I cannot figure this out. I thought it had something to do with the Beast, but I have now been off of that for about 3 weeks. I'm still tired all the dang time. I basically just workout, go to class, eat, and sleep. It's tough staying up past like 9pm, even when I sleep in till 1 or 2pm. I am eating plenty of carbs so I am not carb depleted or anything.

Anyone have any ideas?

The issue with Superdrol I think is a compounded one. While I agree that it has been shown through anecdotal feedback to really eat up carbs and fill glycogen reserves quickly, i'd also wager that it's shutting down your endogenous test production just as quickly. Seeing that you're using a longer acting ester of test here (Enanthate), this all makes sense in the end. Once your body is shutdown and becomes hypogonadal, lethargy is a very common side effect. Ask any guy that's currently on TRT how they felt beforehand.....until they integrated that supplement modality to mitigate those effects.

Now.....I think much of this could be avoided if you frontload with a shorter acting ester (prop) for a few weeks while the enanthate begins to kick in (week 5-6). This in addition to the use of hCG on cycle (which should be a MUST on every cycle) should help to alleviate some of these symptoms overall.

I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here. Hypogonadal men exhibit the exact same type of symptoms before they intervene with TRT. While I absolutely agree that maintaining a sufficient level of carbohydrates is paramount, that's only part of the problem.

No test = feeling like ****; plain and simple. Some of these designers probably affect the HPTA in varying degrees of suppression; so the overall feeling is not as pronounced. There are no scietific studies on just about all the designers, so we're left to go off anecdotes and speculation. Look at M1T for example.....lethargy, lethargy, lethargy. I'd bet my paycheck that it's due to the fact that suppression is aggressive.

I advise you look into useing hCG on all your future cycles. It will help your body maintain some of its own endogenous test production and prevent the desensitization that can occur though the use of exogenous hormones; which can leave permanent effects on our HPTA rendering you hypogonadal in the end.




-John
 
monsterbox

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The issue with Superdrol I think is a compounded one. While I agree that it has been shown through anecdotal feedback to really eat up carbs and fill glycogen reserves quickly, i'd also wager that it's shutting down your endogenous test production just as quickly. Seeing that you're using a longer acting ester of test here (Enanthate), this all makes sense in the end. Once your body is shutdown and becomes hypogonadal, lethargy is a very common side effect. Ask any guy that's currently on TRT how they felt beforehand.....until they integrated that supplement modality to mitigate those effects.

Now.....I think much of this could be avoided if you frontload with a shorter acting ester (prop) for a few weeks while the enanthate begins to kick in (week 5-6). This in addition to the use of hCG on cycle (which should be a MUST on every cycle) should help to alleviate some of these symptoms overall.

I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here. Hypogonadal men exhibit the exact same type of symptoms before they intervene with TRT. While I absolutely agree that maintaining a sufficient level of carbohydrates is paramount, that's only part of the problem.

No test = feeling like ****; plain and simple. Some of these designers probably affect the HPTA in varying degrees of suppression; so the overall feeling is not as pronounced. There are no scietific studies on just about all the designers, so we're left to go off anecdotes and speculation. Look at M1T for example.....lethargy, lethargy, lethargy. I'd bet my paycheck that it's due to the fact that suppression is aggressive.

I advise you look into useing hCG on all your future cycles. It will help your body maintain some of its own endogenous test production and prevent the desensitization that can occur though the use of exogenous hormones; which can leave permanent effects on our HPTA rendering you hypogonadal in the end.




-John
I'm not trying to attack here or anything, but I'm just confused by your suggestion.

He's on 1000mg/wk of test-e...so it shouldn't matter if he is suppressed by any means, or even if he had not frontloaded. One shot at 1000mg is enough to supply way beyond human range, without even having to wait for the ester to kick in.

I think his issues are thyroid related. No one in here has mention t3. Testosterone, steroids etc..especially in higher dosages, are proven to lower t3 substantially. Could this be where the source of fatigue? Simply the fact the the workouts, muscle growth, metabolism is so insane with the dosages that the adrenals/thryoid can't keep up.

However, regardless of the testosterone replacement in the system, suppression of the HPTA can lead to lowered production of DHEA and pregnenolone i think...which help with fatigue/energy levels. HCG restores preg. levels tremendously. Whenever i shoot HCG, I feel a slight buzz of energy...sometimes it gives me an uncomfortable anxiety rush.
 
monsterbox

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to the op, on a side note, just how insane is 1000mg/week of test? I've run 500mg and didn't feel to much at all...I want to bump it up to 600-750...but something inside me just wants to pin 1000mg week like you hahaha.....is the water retention/estrogen conversion/etc much much more pronounced, like double?
 
Wudog

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Tripdog asked the question but I didn't see an answer. I have gone through periods of sleeping 20 hours a day and after extensive bloodwork and speaking with numerous sleep specialist and endocrinologists my first thought when I saw your post was to ask if you are running an AI. The serms have some effect on daytime sleepiness but the issue of free estrogen levels and fatigue really came to light with the introduction of Arimidex. Aromasin, Letrozole etc. followed and people ended up gunning for near zero estrogen levels. Often the extreme lethargy was blamed on contest dieting but estrogen appears essential for vigilance. Too much cortisol inhibition can of course leave you exhausted as well. The SD is supposed to have some anti estrogenic effect so I ask again, what are you using for estrogen control? It is almost always just a matter of reducing the dosage if an AI is the culprit. The other very simple explanation is that you are just growing at a rate that requires ATP uncoupling throughout the day to provide the catalyst for a massive increase in protein synthesis. D-ribose and Creatine will help anyone with fatigue issues. Another common culprit is an allergy of any kind, but gluten and lactose and even casein are very common and anytime we are compromising our immune system in any way we are opening up to developing food allergies. I developed an allergy to oats and that was all I wanted to eat. I missed a semester of school because of oats and eventually had to count getting out of bed to pee was my main goal for the day. I stopped the oats and now have much loftier goals. I wish you the best, check your temp upon rising on the off chance that there is a thyroid issue but I don't think you would be seeing such gains. Both progesterone and estrogen over suppression can exhaust a man. I hope it is that simple.
I am not using an AI...I never have, so didn't start now.....
 
Trauma1

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I'm not trying to attack here or anything, but I'm just confused by your suggestion.

He's on 1000mg/wk of test-e...so it shouldn't matter if he is suppressed by any means, or even if he had not frontloaded. One shot at 1000mg is enough to supply way beyond human range, without even having to wait for the ester to kick in.

I think his issues are thyroid related. No one in here has mention t3. Testosterone, steroids etc..especially in higher dosages, are proven to lower t3 substantially. Could this be where the source of fatigue? Simply the fact the the workouts, muscle growth, metabolism is so insane with the dosages that the adrenals/thryoid can't keep up.

However, regardless of the testosterone replacement in the system, suppression of the HPTA can lead to lowered production of DHEA and pregnenolone i think...which help with fatigue/energy levels. HCG restores preg. levels tremendously. Whenever i shoot HCG, I feel a slight buzz of energy...sometimes it gives me an uncomfortable anxiety rush.

How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



-John
 
Wudog

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to the op, on a side note, just how insane is 1000mg/week of test? I've run 500mg and didn't feel to much at all...I want to bump it up to 600-750...but something inside me just wants to pin 1000mg week like you hahaha.....is the water retention/estrogen conversion/etc much much more pronounced, like double?
I don't retain that much water at all at 500 or 1,000mg. So for me it's not a problem.
 
Wudog

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as far as HCG is concerned I have never used it, some people swear by it and some people never use it......so it's like a toss up to me....but if people think that it would make a difference now...I will get some and try it out.
 
Trauma1

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as far as HCG is concerned I have never used it, some people swear by it and some people never use it......so it's like a toss up to me....but if people think that it would make a difference now...I will get some and try it out.
It's a HUGE difference when using it. You won't regret it.





-John
 
monsterbox

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How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



-John
Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.




Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
 

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Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.




Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
I'm with you on the ester thing, since there is no way in hell that his test levels are low and causing him lethargy. A single shot of test will put your levels above normal just hours after the fact. You don't need to wait 4-5 weeks for your TT to build up to 6000ng/ml before you stop feeling shutdown from SD.
However, HCG while on a test cycle can be felt not from the boost of natural test that it provides, but because the brain has many LH receptors that are responsible for mood and well-being. This is why HCG is important to TRT patients, even if they don't give a rat's ass about their sperm count.
 
monsterbox

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I'm with you on the ester thing, since there is no way in hell that his test levels are low and causing him lethargy. A single shot of test will put your levels above normal just hours after the fact. You don't need to wait 4-5 weeks for your TT to build up to 6000ng/ml before you stop feeling shutdown from SD.
However, HCG while on a test cycle can be felt not from the boost of natural test that it provides, but because the brain has many LH receptors that are responsible for mood and well-being. This is why HCG is important to TRT patients, even if they don't give a rat's ass about their sperm count.
The LH receptors are a great point! Thanks for backing me up, some people come in here making claims and then get so offended when you call them out...hahah!:popcorn:
 
monsterbox

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How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



-John
I forgot to follow up on the thyroid point...

IRRC, its been shown the testosterone and t3 levels are correlated to a degree. Above human range levels of testosterone are shown to cause a significant drop in t3, which is why alot of people recommend the introduction of T3 during a long/hefty cycle of steroids. Its similar to the affect of DNP, where DNP will work for a few days and then cause a drop in body temperature after the first week because of its lowering affect on T3 production.
 
Trauma1

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I forgot to follow up on the thyroid point...

IRRC, its been shown the testosterone and t3 levels are correlated to a degree. Above human range levels of testosterone are shown to cause a significant drop in t3, which is why alot of people recommend the introduction of T3 during a long/hefty cycle of steroids. Its similar to the affect of DNP, where DNP will work for a few days and then cause a drop in body temperature after the first week because of its lowering affect on T3 production.
Who is making these recommendations exactly? Where are all the studies that show this? There aren't any statistically significant demonstrations, so you probably should state that's a theory.

There is a correlation to a degree between testosterone and thyroid hormones (which is why you should always have a thyroid panel done), but if you're thyroid panel has shown to be therapeutic prior to a cycle, I highly doubt you're going to experience any significant issue that would require outside intervention. Many people that have developed hypogonadal issues also have pre-existing hypothyroid manifestations; which is what my point was.

On another note: messing around with thryoid hormones is a good way to end up dead as well. Too many guys play doctor and have no idea (or are ignorant to) what the potential hazzardous outcomes can be in the end.


-John
 
Trauma1

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Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.
I stated that the issue was probably a compounded problem; not a single issue. So the next time you "call someone out" you probably should have your facts straight in forming your rebuttal. Any slight variation in the hormonal mileu can cause symptoms that are being described. Hepatotoxic effects can also cause fatigue and lethargy; which superdrol is known for.

I can go on all day with hypotheticals here, but the fact remains the same......it's probably a compounded issue. The real problem lies when a user tries to mitigate every single aspect of their cycle or potential side effects.
 
Trauma1

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Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
hCG isn't doing much for you on-cycle, huh? Actually, it is; Preventing the atrophy of ITT/INSL3 levels through testicular desensitization is exactly why hCG is warranted in cycles of greater than 8 weeks duration. If you didn't prevent this desensitized effect you can actually cause permanent loss of testicular function and/or varying degrees of primary hypogonadism as a result. What it's doing for you on-cycle is the reason why you'll have an easy transition into PCT.

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4th day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

Utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



-John
 
Gutterpump

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High hematocrit, high BP, or estrogen can cause this. On that much test, 20mg or aromasin eod should be totally fine... but I bet your BP + hematocrit is super high. Get your E2 + BP + hematocrit tested. Also check liver values. If your liver has taken a hit, you will feel pretty lethargic till you get it back under control. Milk thistle alone isn't enough for any oral imho.
 
mich29

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Superdrol without enough carbs = lethargy.

Up your carbs.
I'd say its probably this.though of course it could be the other things talked about as well but most times its just a lack of carbs.
 

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I'd say its probably this.though of course it could be the other things talked about as well but most times its just a lack of carbs.
Can't be. The OP has been off the SD for a few weeks now.
 
mich29

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Can't be. The OP has been off the SD for a few weeks now.
thats why I said or it could be the other factors.also we don't know his working hours and etc he could be over working himself and not eatting enough to keep up with his lifestyle.

sidenote:do you know if javin86 still posts?
 

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thats why I said or it could be the other factors.also we don't know his working hours and etc he could be over working himself and not eatting enough to keep up with his lifestyle.

sidenote:do you know if javin86 still posts?
I haven't seen that name since the AAS section on bb.com got shut down...
 
Evan Bageris

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HCG, good call

If all HCG did was crank up LH post cycle it would not make sense here, but studies show its mechanism of action is much more complex than that and may even bring thyroid etc. back to baseline. Good call on HCG.
 

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