Exhausted 24/7 while on cycle...help
- 11-23-2010, 03:22 PM
- 11-23-2010, 06:13 PM
11-23-2010, 06:16 PM
11-23-2010, 06:45 PM
recently i had a similar problem with beastdrol and headaches and also slight lethargy...i was told by some of the AM boys to up my carb intake and it worked a treat. FEEL GREAT NOW!
11-23-2010, 06:49 PM
The issue with Superdrol I think is a compounded one. While I agree that it has been shown through anecdotal feedback to really eat up carbs and fill glycogen reserves quickly, i'd also wager that it's shutting down your endogenous test production just as quickly. Seeing that you're using a longer acting ester of test here (Enanthate), this all makes sense in the end. Once your body is shutdown and becomes hypogonadal, lethargy is a very common side effect. Ask any guy that's currently on TRT how they felt beforehand.....until they integrated that supplement modality to mitigate those effects.
Now.....I think much of this could be avoided if you frontload with a shorter acting ester (prop) for a few weeks while the enanthate begins to kick in (week 5-6). This in addition to the use of hCG on cycle (which should be a MUST on every cycle) should help to alleviate some of these symptoms overall.
I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here. Hypogonadal men exhibit the exact same type of symptoms before they intervene with TRT. While I absolutely agree that maintaining a sufficient level of carbohydrates is paramount, that's only part of the problem.
No test = feeling like ****; plain and simple. Some of these designers probably affect the HPTA in varying degrees of suppression; so the overall feeling is not as pronounced. There are no scietific studies on just about all the designers, so we're left to go off anecdotes and speculation. Look at M1T for example.....lethargy, lethargy, lethargy. I'd bet my paycheck that it's due to the fact that suppression is aggressive.
I advise you look into useing hCG on all your future cycles. It will help your body maintain some of its own endogenous test production and prevent the desensitization that can occur though the use of exogenous hormones; which can leave permanent effects on our HPTA rendering you hypogonadal in the end.
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
11-23-2010, 07:30 PM
He's on 1000mg/wk of test-e...so it shouldn't matter if he is suppressed by any means, or even if he had not frontloaded. One shot at 1000mg is enough to supply way beyond human range, without even having to wait for the ester to kick in.
I think his issues are thyroid related. No one in here has mention t3. Testosterone, steroids etc..especially in higher dosages, are proven to lower t3 substantially. Could this be where the source of fatigue? Simply the fact the the workouts, muscle growth, metabolism is so insane with the dosages that the adrenals/thryoid can't keep up.
However, regardless of the testosterone replacement in the system, suppression of the HPTA can lead to lowered production of DHEA and pregnenolone i think...which help with fatigue/energy levels. HCG restores preg. levels tremendously. Whenever i shoot HCG, I feel a slight buzz of energy...sometimes it gives me an uncomfortable anxiety rush.
11-23-2010, 07:35 PM
to the op, on a side note, just how insane is 1000mg/week of test? I've run 500mg and didn't feel to much at all...I want to bump it up to 600-750...but something inside me just wants to pin 1000mg week like you hahaha.....is the water retention/estrogen conversion/etc much much more pronounced, like double?
11-23-2010, 07:58 PM
11-23-2010, 07:59 PM
How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...
If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
11-23-2010, 08:02 PM
11-23-2010, 08:04 PM
as far as HCG is concerned I have never used it, some people swear by it and some people never use it......so it's like a toss up to me....but if people think that it would make a difference now...I will get some and try it out.
11-23-2010, 08:05 PM
11-24-2010, 01:44 AM
Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............
I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.
SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.
Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)
If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.
Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
11-24-2010, 04:29 AM
However, HCG while on a test cycle can be felt not from the boost of natural test that it provides, but because the brain has many LH receptors that are responsible for mood and well-being. This is why HCG is important to TRT patients, even if they don't give a rat's ass about their sperm count.
11-26-2010, 01:16 AM
11-26-2010, 01:19 AM
IRRC, its been shown the testosterone and t3 levels are correlated to a degree. Above human range levels of testosterone are shown to cause a significant drop in t3, which is why alot of people recommend the introduction of T3 during a long/hefty cycle of steroids. Its similar to the affect of DNP, where DNP will work for a few days and then cause a drop in body temperature after the first week because of its lowering affect on T3 production.
11-26-2010, 08:11 AM
There is a correlation to a degree between testosterone and thyroid hormones (which is why you should always have a thyroid panel done), but if you're thyroid panel has shown to be therapeutic prior to a cycle, I highly doubt you're going to experience any significant issue that would require outside intervention. Many people that have developed hypogonadal issues also have pre-existing hypothyroid manifestations; which is what my point was.
On another note: messing around with thryoid hormones is a good way to end up dead as well. Too many guys play doctor and have no idea (or are ignorant to) what the potential hazzardous outcomes can be in the end.
11-26-2010, 08:29 AM
I can go on all day with hypotheticals here, but the fact remains the same......it's probably a compounded issue. The real problem lies when a user tries to mitigate every single aspect of their cycle or potential side effects.
11-26-2010, 08:56 AM
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4th day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
Utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.
11-27-2010, 11:30 AM
High hematocrit, high BP, or estrogen can cause this. On that much test, 20mg or aromasin eod should be totally fine... but I bet your BP + hematocrit is super high. Get your E2 + BP + hematocrit tested. Also check liver values. If your liver has taken a hit, you will feel pretty lethargic till you get it back under control. Milk thistle alone isn't enough for any oral imho.
11-27-2010, 10:08 PM
11-27-2010, 10:56 PM
11-27-2010, 11:01 PM
11-28-2010, 12:14 AM
11-28-2010, 03:18 AM
HCG, good call
If all HCG did was crank up LH post cycle it would not make sense here, but studies show its mechanism of action is much more complex than that and may even bring thyroid etc. back to baseline. Good call on HCG.
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