Exhausted 24/7 while on cycle...help

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    The issue with Superdrol I think is a compounded one. While I agree that it has been shown through anecdotal feedback to really eat up carbs and fill glycogen reserves quickly, i'd also wager that it's shutting down your endogenous test production just as quickly. Seeing that you're using a longer acting ester of test here (Enanthate), this all makes sense in the end. Once your body is shutdown and becomes hypogonadal, lethargy is a very common side effect. Ask any guy that's currently on TRT how they felt beforehand.....until they integrated that supplement modality to mitigate those effects.

    Now.....I think much of this could be avoided if you frontload with a shorter acting ester (prop) for a few weeks while the enanthate begins to kick in (week 5-6). This in addition to the use of hCG on cycle (which should be a MUST on every cycle) should help to alleviate some of these symptoms overall.

    I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here. Hypogonadal men exhibit the exact same type of symptoms before they intervene with TRT. While I absolutely agree that maintaining a sufficient level of carbohydrates is paramount, that's only part of the problem.

    No test = feeling like ****; plain and simple. Some of these designers probably affect the HPTA in varying degrees of suppression; so the overall feeling is not as pronounced. There are no scietific studies on just about all the designers, so we're left to go off anecdotes and speculation. Look at M1T for example.....lethargy, lethargy, lethargy. I'd bet my paycheck that it's due to the fact that suppression is aggressive.

    I advise you look into useing hCG on all your future cycles. It will help your body maintain some of its own endogenous test production and prevent the desensitization that can occur though the use of exogenous hormones; which can leave permanent effects on our HPTA rendering you hypogonadal in the end.




    -John
    I'm not trying to attack here or anything, but I'm just confused by your suggestion.

    He's on 1000mg/wk of test-e...so it shouldn't matter if he is suppressed by any means, or even if he had not frontloaded. One shot at 1000mg is enough to supply way beyond human range, without even having to wait for the ester to kick in.

    I think his issues are thyroid related. No one in here has mention t3. Testosterone, steroids etc..especially in higher dosages, are proven to lower t3 substantially. Could this be where the source of fatigue? Simply the fact the the workouts, muscle growth, metabolism is so insane with the dosages that the adrenals/thryoid can't keep up.

    However, regardless of the testosterone replacement in the system, suppression of the HPTA can lead to lowered production of DHEA and pregnenolone i think...which help with fatigue/energy levels. HCG restores preg. levels tremendously. Whenever i shoot HCG, I feel a slight buzz of energy...sometimes it gives me an uncomfortable anxiety rush.


  2. to the op, on a side note, just how insane is 1000mg/week of test? I've run 500mg and didn't feel to much at all...I want to bump it up to 600-750...but something inside me just wants to pin 1000mg week like you hahaha.....is the water retention/estrogen conversion/etc much much more pronounced, like double?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Evan Bageris View Post
    Tripdog asked the question but I didn't see an answer. I have gone through periods of sleeping 20 hours a day and after extensive bloodwork and speaking with numerous sleep specialist and endocrinologists my first thought when I saw your post was to ask if you are running an AI. The serms have some effect on daytime sleepiness but the issue of free estrogen levels and fatigue really came to light with the introduction of Arimidex. Aromasin, Letrozole etc. followed and people ended up gunning for near zero estrogen levels. Often the extreme lethargy was blamed on contest dieting but estrogen appears essential for vigilance. Too much cortisol inhibition can of course leave you exhausted as well. The SD is supposed to have some anti estrogenic effect so I ask again, what are you using for estrogen control? It is almost always just a matter of reducing the dosage if an AI is the culprit. The other very simple explanation is that you are just growing at a rate that requires ATP uncoupling throughout the day to provide the catalyst for a massive increase in protein synthesis. D-ribose and Creatine will help anyone with fatigue issues. Another common culprit is an allergy of any kind, but gluten and lactose and even casein are very common and anytime we are compromising our immune system in any way we are opening up to developing food allergies. I developed an allergy to oats and that was all I wanted to eat. I missed a semester of school because of oats and eventually had to count getting out of bed to pee was my main goal for the day. I stopped the oats and now have much loftier goals. I wish you the best, check your temp upon rising on the off chance that there is a thyroid issue but I don't think you would be seeing such gains. Both progesterone and estrogen over suppression can exhaust a man. I hope it is that simple.
    I am not using an AI...I never have, so didn't start now.....

  4. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I'm not trying to attack here or anything, but I'm just confused by your suggestion.

    He's on 1000mg/wk of test-e...so it shouldn't matter if he is suppressed by any means, or even if he had not frontloaded. One shot at 1000mg is enough to supply way beyond human range, without even having to wait for the ester to kick in.

    I think his issues are thyroid related. No one in here has mention t3. Testosterone, steroids etc..especially in higher dosages, are proven to lower t3 substantially. Could this be where the source of fatigue? Simply the fact the the workouts, muscle growth, metabolism is so insane with the dosages that the adrenals/thryoid can't keep up.

    However, regardless of the testosterone replacement in the system, suppression of the HPTA can lead to lowered production of DHEA and pregnenolone i think...which help with fatigue/energy levels. HCG restores preg. levels tremendously. Whenever i shoot HCG, I feel a slight buzz of energy...sometimes it gives me an uncomfortable anxiety rush.

    How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

    If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



    -John

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  5. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    to the op, on a side note, just how insane is 1000mg/week of test? I've run 500mg and didn't feel to much at all...I want to bump it up to 600-750...but something inside me just wants to pin 1000mg week like you hahaha.....is the water retention/estrogen conversion/etc much much more pronounced, like double?
    I don't retain that much water at all at 500 or 1,000mg. So for me it's not a problem.

  6. as far as HCG is concerned I have never used it, some people swear by it and some people never use it......so it's like a toss up to me....but if people think that it would make a difference now...I will get some and try it out.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Wudog View Post
    as far as HCG is concerned I have never used it, some people swear by it and some people never use it......so it's like a toss up to me....but if people think that it would make a difference now...I will get some and try it out.
    It's a HUGE difference when using it. You won't regret it.





    -John

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  8. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

    If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



    -John
    Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

    Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

    I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

    SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.




    Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

    If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

    Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

    Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

    I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

    SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.




    Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

    If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

    Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
    I'm with you on the ester thing, since there is no way in hell that his test levels are low and causing him lethargy. A single shot of test will put your levels above normal just hours after the fact. You don't need to wait 4-5 weeks for your TT to build up to 6000ng/ml before you stop feeling shutdown from SD.
    However, HCG while on a test cycle can be felt not from the boost of natural test that it provides, but because the brain has many LH receptors that are responsible for mood and well-being. This is why HCG is important to TRT patients, even if they don't give a rat's ass about their sperm count.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    I'm with you on the ester thing, since there is no way in hell that his test levels are low and causing him lethargy. A single shot of test will put your levels above normal just hours after the fact. You don't need to wait 4-5 weeks for your TT to build up to 6000ng/ml before you stop feeling shutdown from SD.
    However, HCG while on a test cycle can be felt not from the boost of natural test that it provides, but because the brain has many LH receptors that are responsible for mood and well-being. This is why HCG is important to TRT patients, even if they don't give a rat's ass about their sperm count.
    The LH receptors are a great point! Thanks for backing me up, some people come in here making claims and then get so offended when you call them out...hahah!
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    How is it that you're confused exactly? I've laid it out fairly coherently. Do you not understand the configuration of different esters and their serum concentraions over a given time period? It's blantantly apparent that you don't...

    If there was no underlying thyroid hormone issue, why would you suddenly suspect this? If that was an issue, it wouldn have been apparent well before this cycle began.



    -John
    I forgot to follow up on the thyroid point...

    IRRC, its been shown the testosterone and t3 levels are correlated to a degree. Above human range levels of testosterone are shown to cause a significant drop in t3, which is why alot of people recommend the introduction of T3 during a long/hefty cycle of steroids. Its similar to the affect of DNP, where DNP will work for a few days and then cause a drop in body temperature after the first week because of its lowering affect on T3 production.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I forgot to follow up on the thyroid point...

    IRRC, its been shown the testosterone and t3 levels are correlated to a degree. Above human range levels of testosterone are shown to cause a significant drop in t3, which is why alot of people recommend the introduction of T3 during a long/hefty cycle of steroids. Its similar to the affect of DNP, where DNP will work for a few days and then cause a drop in body temperature after the first week because of its lowering affect on T3 production.
    Who is making these recommendations exactly? Where are all the studies that show this? There aren't any statistically significant demonstrations, so you probably should state that's a theory.

    There is a correlation to a degree between testosterone and thyroid hormones (which is why you should always have a thyroid panel done), but if you're thyroid panel has shown to be therapeutic prior to a cycle, I highly doubt you're going to experience any significant issue that would require outside intervention. Many people that have developed hypogonadal issues also have pre-existing hypothyroid manifestations; which is what my point was.

    On another note: messing around with thryoid hormones is a good way to end up dead as well. Too many guys play doctor and have no idea (or are ignorant to) what the potential hazzardous outcomes can be in the end.


    -John

  13. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    Well, just confused regarding the syptoms of shutdown your metion that he may be experiencing from the superdrol. Without a test base, taking superdrol would cause nearly immediate suppression causing fatigue, etc... right? But with adaquate testosterone support, via exogeneous source and/or HCG, this should allievate the shutdown symptoms brought upon by the superdrol right?

    Ok, well you were stating to front-load with a shorter ester, to provide testosterone levels immediately, to counteract the shutdown, IE prop or suspension. My confusion lies in the ester concentrations...I guess I obviously dont understand. .............

    I was under the impression, that a single shot, of a long ester like Cyp or Enanthate, dosed at 1gram, should be such a huge amount alone, that the serum levels achieved from the SINGLE shot, (without waiting for the ester release to build in the following 2-3wks) should provide enough immediate replacement of testosterone to at least achieve human levels...IE 250-1000ng. Obviously not until weeks 3-4, will the levels build to maximum superphysiological levels.

    SO, by deductive reasoning, I was simply stating that it may not be a lack of testosterone/suppression during the superdrol period that was causing the fatigue, because the such a high dose of test should provide plenty of T support regardless of the length/weight of the ester.
    I stated that the issue was probably a compounded problem; not a single issue. So the next time you "call someone out" you probably should have your facts straight in forming your rebuttal. Any slight variation in the hormonal mileu can cause symptoms that are being described. Hepatotoxic effects can also cause fatigue and lethargy; which superdrol is known for.

    I can go on all day with hypotheticals here, but the fact remains the same......it's probably a compounded issue. The real problem lies when a user tries to mitigate every single aspect of their cycle or potential side effects.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    Additonally to the OP, HCG is NOT going to do much for you ON-cycle, but will save your life when you enter POST-cycle. In fact, you wont notice it at all if you are on 1000mg/wk of test. Its just going to keep your nuts full. The amount of endogenous test maintained by the HCG will be great, but it will be completely dwarfed by the high level of exogeneous test your are using. You may notice the pregnenolone affects and an increase in estrogen from HCG usage. However, AFTERWARDS, you should notice a huge increase in recovery speed during PCT, as your leydig cells will still be full and functional, and all you need is the LH signal from your pituitary (no longer have to wait for nuts to grow back)

    If you choose to run HCG, use it in SMALL doses. 500iu-700iu/week MAX. Use it every week, from week 4 of your cycle or earlier. These bro's waiting till their nuts have already shrunk and using 5,000IU/wk are just ruining their nuts by desensitizing the leydig cells to LH.

    Im on TRT, 100mg/wk of Test-C and 250iu/2x wk of HCG. I didn't notice much with the addition of HCG besides a little well-being boost, and sometimes axiety from adrenal effects, and e2 increase.
    hCG isn't doing much for you on-cycle, huh? Actually, it is; Preventing the atrophy of ITT/INSL3 levels through testicular desensitization is exactly why hCG is warranted in cycles of greater than 8 weeks duration. If you didn't prevent this desensitized effect you can actually cause permanent loss of testicular function and/or varying degrees of primary hypogonadism as a result. What it's doing for you on-cycle is the reason why you'll have an easy transition into PCT.

    For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4th day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

    Utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



    -John

  15. High hematocrit, high BP, or estrogen can cause this. On that much test, 20mg or aromasin eod should be totally fine... but I bet your BP + hematocrit is super high. Get your E2 + BP + hematocrit tested. Also check liver values. If your liver has taken a hit, you will feel pretty lethargic till you get it back under control. Milk thistle alone isn't enough for any oral imho.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Superdrol without enough carbs = lethargy.

    Up your carbs.
    I'd say its probably this.though of course it could be the other things talked about as well but most times its just a lack of carbs.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    I'd say its probably this.though of course it could be the other things talked about as well but most times its just a lack of carbs.
    Can't be. The OP has been off the SD for a few weeks now.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    Can't be. The OP has been off the SD for a few weeks now.
    thats why I said or it could be the other factors.also we don't know his working hours and etc he could be over working himself and not eatting enough to keep up with his lifestyle.

    sidenote:do you know if javin86 still posts?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    thats why I said or it could be the other factors.also we don't know his working hours and etc he could be over working himself and not eatting enough to keep up with his lifestyle.

    sidenote:do you know if javin86 still posts?
    I haven't seen that name since the AAS section on bb.com got shut down...
  20. HCG, good call


    If all HCG did was crank up LH post cycle it would not make sense here, but studies show its mechanism of action is much more complex than that and may even bring thyroid etc. back to baseline. Good call on HCG.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    thats why I said or it could be the other factors.also we don't know his working hours and etc he could be over working himself and not eatting enough to keep up with his lifestyle.

    sidenote:do you know if javin86 still posts?
    I don't work, I just got to class 2 times a week. I don't really do anything besides sit around the house watching tv or on the computer if I'm not working out. I do not do ANY cardio right now or anything extra to burn calories that I don't need to.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post
    i know alot of guys who did 1g of test and it killed their energy.
    i agree. the less combined test+juice i have the less exhausted i feel.

  23. I may have figured out what the problem is. I've been tested for Mono and several other things, all negative. While growing up I was diagnosed with Kleine-Levin syndrome; which is a really rare sleeping disorder. It went away like it was suppose to; but I believe it is back. Not as bad as when I was younger, but still is greatly affecting me. I am contacting Stafford University this week because they have an ongoing study on the syndrome and hope I can get some info and possibly some help. At this time there is no treatment or cure for the problem and it's something you just have to wait out. Could take months, or several years for it to disappear again. When I was younger it was several years, so hopefully this time since it's not as bad I can get rid of it quickly. Since the cycle is unrelated to this issue I am going to continue on with it and workout as much as possible. Thanks to all who have replied and have tried to help me figure out what the problem was.

  24. Glad you got to the root of the problem.

    What about uppers?
    Do those help at all?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by CCV3 View Post
    Glad you got to the root of the problem.

    What about uppers?
    Do those help at all?
    in my experince pre wo didnt do much. like they would work for 30-45min, but after that even if im still at the gym im yawning.

    and doin blow just to stay awake is an expensive habbit.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by CCV3 View Post
    Glad you got to the root of the problem.

    What about uppers?
    Do those help at all?
    I use to be on really high doses of Adderal and other stimulants....they didn't do anything.....so yea there is nothing that really helps

  27. There is most likely a very simple explanation for all this.....

    LOW CORTISOL... Even on TRT you can have too high Androgens that will suppress you Cortisol.. Also, since your testes are no longer producing Pregnenolone which is responsible for your T production, it also means your Pregnenolone is not downstreaming to cortisol..

    All the stress is now placed on the Adrenals to manufacture cortisol.. If you are overtraining or missing sleep. Even on a heavy cycle, you will tax your adrenals and have too low Cort, which will result in no energy.
  28. Smile


    Quote Originally Posted by Hcc5881 View Post
    Your test is probably good to go. I finished my cycle of test 500mg/wk just recently. I was taking .5mg arimidex eod too. About two or three weeks into my cycle, I became exhausted 24/7. This lasted at least a month until I had blood work done. Everything looked fine and test read 1500+. Everything checked out. BUT THEN, my wife noticed I wasn't sleeping well. Long story short, I went to a sleep doctor to find out that the anabolics were causing the pallette in my throat to enlarge (like all other tissue). I read about sleep apneia so I decided to sleep in a lazy boy recliner (approx 30 degree angle) instead of the bed. This angle makes it harder for the Pallette to close off your airway while sleeping. AND BOOM! two days later I had ALL of my energy back. Ended up being my sleeping and not the AAS at all (but the AAS caused it). I recommend giving this a shot. It might be far from helping but Who knows?
    LOL... I snore like a Fkn Harley....

    Sleeping on your side helps, but I like your Idea..

  29. Just thinking outside the box...Do you have sleep apnea? If so, it will worsen while you are on cycle. I ended up getting on a CPAP to treat my apnea. Made all the diff. in my case.
  

  
 

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