short cycles with longer estered steroids?
- 02-01-2010, 01:29 PM
short cycles with longer estered steroids?
What are your guys opinions on doing shorter steroid cycles, i.e 4-5 weeks with long estered drugs such as test enanthate, cypionate etc.
I've read differing things on half lives of esters and when longer estered steroids reach maxmimum concentration levels, there seems to be a lot of contrasting information out there, but I'm looking to run a cycle thats shortish in duration to try and minimise HPTA shutdown. The idea being to get in quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides such as the negative impact on lipid profile, oily skin, and most importantly HPTA surpression! I'm sick of walking round for months after a 12 weeker with no sex drive. I do understand and use PCT, but recovery just seems so much harder after 12 weeks on.
I was thinking of doing a big frontload of 1000mg test enth on day 1, then 500mg on day 3, then every 4th day another 500mg for 4 weeks, that would be akin to using about 720mg test a week (thats the test minus the room the ester takes up, thuis is also providing the half life of Test E is 4 days, as I've read its from anywhere from 4 days upto 14 days!) along with some dianabol at 30mg every day.
I know that shorter estered steroids would work much better for this type of cycle, the loger estered gear takes a long time to clear the system and that sort of goes against the philosophy of short cycles, I just HATE injecting prop, it HURTS! and other faster acting drugs like Trenbolone Acetate are difficult for me to get hold of.
Do you think running Test Enanthate in that manner would be long enough for size gains to manifest themselves? Do you think a shorter cycle similiar to the one I mentioned would be less supressive to the HPTA?
- 02-01-2010, 02:21 PM
it takes like 4-5 weeks just for test e and c to just kick in lol...
- 02-01-2010, 03:16 PM
This is what I'm trying to establish, a lot of people say that Enanthate and Cyp have half lives of 14-16 days, but alot of the medical and bodybuilding literature I've read say other wise.
What I'm thinking is that Testosterne is Testosterone, the parent hormone is always the same, all thats happened with different types of testosterone we can buy is that esters have been attached so that the rate of effects the test will exert are either faster or slower.
Now, Enanthate has a length of 7 carbons, and is stored mostly in the adipose tissue when injected intra-muscularly. It is slowly and steadily released in the body after it is injected. The blood levels of Enanthate peak 24-48 hours after injection and then decline slowly. The blood levels reach a steady point 10 days after the injection and stay there for over two weeks.
Now if thats the case, and blood levels peak 24-48 hours after injection, then using a large frontload would mean that supraphysiological levels of test are present within the bloodstream pretty quickly. I've also read studies that show that a 250mg shot of Test Enanthate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days.
So, that being the case, the Test would be exerting anabolic effects a week after administration tops. If I ran the Test for 4 weeks, then waited for 2-3 weeks for androgen levels to drop (during which time alot of the test would still be active) then started PCT, I've shortened my cycle length from 12-15 weeks total to 4-6 weeks total, which in theory should minimse side effects, but have still hopefully made some gains because of the front load and largish dosages.
I know I'll never get freaky big doing this, but thats not my goal, I just want to make some quality gains without the crash that comes with long cycles.
02-01-2010, 07:59 PM
Front loading can be dangerous if you don't know 100 percent what you are doing or are new to the game... Thats like an auto shutdown system for your hormonal system....
02-01-2010, 09:03 PM
either way you are going to be supressed doesnt matter if its only for 3 weeks of dbol or 20 weeks of test ur still going to get shut down, ur still going to need a proper PCT and if u want to run long cycles and have minimal recovery time you have to use HCG.
And if you think your going to avoid sides by running a higher doseage for a shorter period of time i can tell you that will not work at all.
If your trying to avoid HPTA shut down, then dont use steroids, if your looking for shorter cycles i would run something more along the lines of prop, which i know you said you hate, or (i cant believe im suggesting this cause i really dont think its a good idea) bridging orals.
I dont think a lot of people are going to suggest using tons of long estered tests in a short cycle even with the addition of a frontload. I mean even if you front load your still going to have to at least wait a week to feel the full effects. The dbol will be more than enough to get you going however thats going to supress HPTA as well.
I personally would not run it, I enjoy dbol and i enjoy test e very much, However i do not think i would run test shorter than 12 weeks. And with the addition of HCG i find that recovery from long cycles is actually very easy.
02-01-2010, 09:20 PM
frontloading isn't enough... i was doing 750mg a week and didn't feel like it was working 100% until the 5th week.
Short cycles with long esters is a bad idea and is never going to work IMO
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02-02-2010, 07:13 PM
the only way it works is to dose high, and dose daily. At your size, I'd probably go with 100-125mg/day for the 5 weeks. Yes, daily dosing of enanthate. Its the only way to get it to build to available bloodstream levels fast enough in that timeframe. It definitely works, just is a pain in the ass/delts/quads/bis.
02-02-2010, 07:23 PM
do the guys here that run short cycles actually keep the gains. the problems i've had in the past is that almost any cycle that was short (4 weeks) i lost a good amount of what i had gotten and that's with diet and so on. longer cycles for the body to adjust just seems like a better idea
02-02-2010, 07:29 PM
basically lean gains of much more than 2lbs a week aren't very keepable. But in a 5 weeker at doses like I was saying 15-18lbs total gained with 3-4 being water and 2-3 being fat isn't unrealistic for 10 kept at the end.
02-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Thanks for all the replies fellas, like I said it was just a theory, and I respect all of your opinions. I guess I'll be sticking to the tried and trusted longer cycles when it comes to longer estered drugs, either that or go buy some prop....ouch!
03-02-2010, 02:26 AM
There's no reason to do a short cycle like that with long esters like such... unless you're a beginner on your first cycle.. In that case it's acceptable because that person doesn't know jack and they are trying to figure out the game. My first cycle was 5 weeks of Test Enanthate and I was happy. But seriously if you know anything you must use multiple esters(intermediate), or short esters like Test Prop (Advanced)
03-02-2010, 04:08 AM
Why isn't TestE sooner working? With a FL the Peak is reached nearly as fas, as with TestP. It SHOULD work sooner.
03-10-2010, 11:24 AM
I'm REALLY interested in your theory, could you just tell me how this would work? I'm imagining if it was to work faster, you would also have REALLY stable blood levels right throughout the course with a longer ester. But how does it work quicker with this method?
03-10-2010, 11:52 AM
it just allows for higher buildup faster. consider a normal dosing of 500mg a week. Here you are talking about 700-1025 a week so close to double the dose. so you hit an effective overall blood level much sooner. for simplicity sake, doing the math at 500mg injected once a week and using a 7 day halflife for enan (its incorrect, but the math is way easier)
wk 1 500 injected
wk 2 500 injected + 250 from halflife
wk 3 500 injected + 375 from halflife
wk 4 500 injected + 440 from halflife
wk 5 500 injected + 475 from halflife
etc. So you can see you reach a point where you have a lot more active in bloodstream from buildup of compound because some amount of the each dose is still active up to a few weeks after. So although you are dosing 500 a week, your actual total in bloodstream is a lot more. but by injecting more a week you hit that effective blood level more rapidly, and dosing daily helps to some extent avoid some side effects.
You can use http://roidcalc.com/ to play with the #s yourself too.
The concept of the high dose daily for short spans comes from Author L Rea's book "Building the Perfect Beast:Chemical Enhancement"
03-10-2010, 12:08 PM
Would now be right in saying then, after reading your post, that test, in active form, is available right after injection?
Test is immediately being cleaved from the ester to which it's attached, so your test levels are constantly on the rise as you build up to the period when your test "kicks in", which it really doesn't. It gradually reaches a peak plasma level where its effects are most noticeably felt.
Its just that shorter estered gear reaches that peak plasma levels quicker?
03-10-2010, 12:58 PM
And basically the rest of what you said is right, that its a question of when you hit what level is considered an effective dose. Also keeping in mind that around 410-420mg of cypionate or enanthate yields around the same amount of test base as roughly 360 mg of propionate. So 100mg of prop every day is a much stronger cycle than 350mg of cyp 2x a week.
03-13-2010, 04:04 PM
I'm thinking, say I did a massive frontload of test enanthate on day 1, for arguements sake 750mg, obviousy not all of that test would be "active" due to alot of it still being bound to the relatively long enanthate ester, some of the test will be bound to SHBG, etc. But I'd still have around 550mg (give or take) of Test in my blood, whether it be active or inactive, right?
If not all of this test is "active" and exerting anabolic effects, does it still mean that all of the test in my blood is supressing HPTA?
Basically what I'm asking is, does "non-active" (still bound to the ester) or "non-free" (bound to SHBG, or not used, waste) exogenous testosterone supress HPTA function, despite not necassarily helping anabolism?
I presume the answer is yes, but can anybody shed anymore light for me?
03-13-2010, 05:53 PM
i would actually say no, because i would assume that your body's signalling would be based on binding to androgen receptors which wont happen until its cleaved from ester.
just wondering tho why it matters? any cycle that goes much over 200mg for more than 3 weeks will suppress anyhow
03-14-2010, 04:58 PM
The reason I'm interested in these shorter cycles is because I want to minimise HPTA surpression and make recovery as easy as possible. I was just wondering how long after running a long estered test such as Enanthate, in the fashion you outlined (125mg ED) would recovery begin to take place.
The protocol you posted sounds awesome and is something I'm definately going to try in the future.
Also the androgen mediated negative feedback you mentioned sounds right, I suppose if the body doesn't read high levels of androgens or estrogen then it won't be inhibited, and so high inactive or useless test levels won't hinder recovery. Which makes 125mg Test E ED for four weeks sound even more attractive!
03-22-2010, 01:17 AM
the real prob w/ long esters and short cycles is, the stuff is still in your system at high levels for a few weeks afterwords.
so say you run a 6 week of test-e... at week 9 you've still got enough test to suppress natural production.... so you're running a 9 week cycle but really only getting good growth weeks 3-7... so you get screwed.
short test cycles are great, just use a shorter ester like propionate?
seems simple to me, no need to change anything
03-22-2010, 02:47 PM
I'd never use anything else. No bloat and I felt it kick in the first week. It's great stuff.
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