First Test-E cycle and Estrogen

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    First Test-E cycle and Estrogen


    Hello guys,

    I lifting since several years and I've tried several ph/ps. I am 3wks into an Epi cyle right now and gained 8lbs so far.

    Well I am planning my first injectable cycle summer 2010. I know it is still lots of time but I am a friend of getting my sh!t ready early in the day :-) . I was thinking about a 3 month Test-E run at 250 mg e5d. PCT Nolva.

    Question: What to take during cycle to keep estrogen sides to a minimum. I do not want to bloat and I am not a friend of extensive water retension??? Would something like formex @50mg or 6-bromo duringh cycle make sense to prevent test conversion to estrogen???

    Most of the ph/ps I took are dry so I have no clue how it feels to be on a wet compound.

    Thanks for your advice

    ~abuleh

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    thats a relatively small dose. I'd suggest 500mg/week for your first cycle. You won't be disappointed. I'd run amiridex .25mg ED to control estrogen.

    I've been talking to Mooch (on this board) lately and he highly recommend nolva PLUS clomid. Makes sense to me (his claims are nolva is better at controlling estrogen binding and clomid is better at stimulating LH - you need both during PCT).

    You might also research frontloading with larger doses of Test or using a compound like Dianabol.
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    I like the 250 e5d, that works out to 350/wk which is a reasonable dose for first cycle to see gains. Pros back in the 70s and 80s ran 300, more isn't always better.

    if you really want to minimize estrogen sides and bloat, 2 choices - either using something like arimidex, exemestane etc or to split your dose up. so going with 250mg/ml and 250 E5D, you could inject 1/5ml every day which noticeably lowers your estrogen conversion. its a pain in the ass, delts, thighs and wherever else you are injecting but it also means not needing to take anything else with it. all the AIs have some side effects one way or the other, so less things you need to take is a plus in my book
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    Thanks man. So you say 250 e5d is not enough?

    To give you a little more background. First injection cycle is not a 100% correct since I did one in my early 20's. I did Omnadren with Stanozonol and Dianabol and didn't know what the f*ck I was doing. I had no PCT and developed gyno, even got surgery in my left tit.

    I want to make it right this time. I always thought 250 e5d was a good starting dose. When dosing 500mg wk would you pin e5d or e7d??

    Would using formex or 6-bromo have the same results in preventing aromatization than using adex at .25 ed?

    ~abuleh
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I like the 250 e5d, that works out to 350/wk which is a reasonable dose for first cycle to see gains. Pros back in the 70s and 80s ran 300, more isn't always better.

    if you really want to minimize estrogen sides and bloat, 2 choices - either using something like arimidex, exemestane etc or to split your dose up. so going with 250mg/ml and 250 E5D, you could inject 1/5ml every day which noticeably lowers your estrogen conversion. its a pain in the ass, delts, thighs and wherever else you are injecting but it also means not needing to take anything else with it. all the AIs have some side effects one way or the other, so less things you need to take is a plus in my book
    Sounds good but pinning every day.....autsch.... :-)

    It seems like all the AAS (injectable) users use adex or aromasin for estrogen and all the ph/ps user use stuff like formex, bromo etc.

    Any reason for this?

    ~abuleh
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    legality the ph/ds stuff is not crossing the line legality wise, so you tend to use ancilliaries that dont cross either.
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    well I'm sure you'll have some nice gains at 350mg/week...I'd just say 500mg/week...test is cheap...and you're going to be shutdown from 350 same as 500...

    I never ran one below 500 so I can't give my thoughts...maybe it would work just as well though...
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    Thanks for your answers.

    I'll get some adex and run it at .25 ed through the cycle.

    How would you actually dose 300mg of test e if 1ml is 250mg and it comes in 10ml bottles. Whats the math?

    ~abuleh
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    1,2ml would be 300mg of test, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by abuleh View Post
    Thanks for your answers.

    I'll get some adex and run it at .25 ed through the cycle.

    How would you actually dose 300mg of test e if 1ml is 250mg and it comes in 10ml bottles. Whats the math?

    ~abuleh
    You might not need the adex for that light amount of test. You might though. I used 25mg of proviron with 500mg test and was fine.
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    "you're going to be shutdown from 350 same as 500"

    Sure, but he will get back faster, pct should be smoother, and he might not need estrogen control on cycle.

    Try to stay away from Adex, Letro ... (Aromatase inhibitor), they have the nasty side effect of screwing up your cholesterol profil too much.

    Two last things, even if we are not talking about a highly suppressive cycle or compounds such as Tren, ... get some hcg. And, finally, get some bloodwork done, precycle, end cycle, prepct ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by abuleh View Post
    1,2ml would be 300mg of test, right?
    yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I like the 250 e5d, that works out to 350/wk which is a reasonable dose for first cycle to see gains. Pros back in the 70s and 80s ran 300, more isn't always better.
    Absolutely. I am a fan of "lowest effective dose," and since it's his first TestE, at 350mg/week he should see results. I guess it all depends on your goals too. I could see a performance enhancement (think sports, i.e. football, baseball) from 200mg/week along with adding some size (I'm 6', ~230 lbs), but would opt for 300+mg/week if I wanted to gain a lot of size and was not afraid to answer the questions of how I did so. I'm also a bit of a hyper-responder to Test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Antony View Post
    Try to stay away from Adex, Letro ... (Aromatase inhibitor), they have the nasty side effect of screwing up your cholesterol profil too much.
    This is due to low Estrogen and low estrogen messes with your lipids!? Then this would apply to otc AIs as well, right?

    I just don't want to blow up like a baloon, retain water like a mofo and look bloated like my head was a f*cking water melone, just quality gains . I mean a little bloat or water retention is normal I guess but I want to really keep it to a minimum.

    Anyway thanks everybody. It is always good to come here for good advice + feedback.

    ~abuleh
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    Quote Originally Posted by abuleh View Post
    This is due to low Estrogen and low estrogen messes with your lipids!? Then this would apply to otc AIs as well, right?

    I just don't want to blow up like a baloon, retain water like a mofo and look bloated like my head was a f*cking water melone, just quality gains . I mean a little bloat or water retention is normal I guess but I want to really keep it to a minimum.

    Anyway thanks everybody. It is always good to come here for good advice + feedback.

    ~abuleh
    OTC Ai's are less potent, by far, and therefor should not mess with your lipids that significantly, but at the same time, OTC supps are not that great when it comes to having your estrogen under control, so ... This doesn't mean that they cannot be utilized on cycle with success (6-bromo), in addition to serms.

    Another point worth mentionning is water retention, and gyno, they are both genetically predetermined, so it is up to you to find what doses are best for you, without having to add to many ancilliary drugs.

    And, this is why I don't feel 500mg/week is written in stone, some ppl get away just fine with 400mg no bloat, no gyno, and at 500, will blow up from the water, keep the first cycle simple, as this will be your base for futur ones.

    A positive point to add, is that ppl with low estrogen tolerance, can have significant gains with lower test cycles (this does not apply to everybody, obviously), so if you can grow 10lbs with 300-400 instead of 500, it's all cool.
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    For a first cycle, I would say that 300mg/week is a nice dose, concidering risk-reward ratio. And, simply, concidering LBM increase, 300mg/week = 11.5lbs, 600mg/week = 17.5 (20weeks).

    That's a 6lbs difference with less risk of acne, gyno, bloat, just in concidering visual sides. But, also smoother pct, etc etc ... This is obviously not written in stone, and everybody should do what they feel is best for them.

    And 600mg/week (10 weeks) = 13.5lbs (from another study "The effects of supraphysiological doses of testosterone on muscle size"), that would mean 9lbs for a 300mg/week (for 10 weeks) keeping that same LBM increase ratio.




    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.

    Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.

    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. SBHASIN@UCLA.EDU

    Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.

    Testosterone-induced increase in muscle size in healthy young men is associated with muscle fiber hypertrophy.Sinha-Hikim I, Artaza J, Woodhouse L, Gonzalez-Cadavid N, Singh AB, Lee MI, Storer TW, Casaburi R, Shen R, Bhasin S.
    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

    Administration of replacement doses of testosterone to healthy hypogonadal men and supraphysiological doses to eugonadal men increases muscle size. To determine whether testosterone-induced increase in muscle size is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy, 61 healthy men, 18-35 yr of age, received monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Thigh muscle volume was measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and muscle biopsies were obtained from vastus lateralis muscle in 39 men before and after 20 wk of combined treatment with GnRH agonist and testosterone. Administration of GnRH agonist plus TE resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 234, 289, 695, 1,344, and 2,435 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Graded doses of testosterone administration were associated with testosterone dose and concentration-dependent increase in muscle volume measured by MRI (changes in vastus lateralis volume, -4, +7, +15, +32, and +48 ml at 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively). Changes in cross-sectional areas of both type I and II fibers were dependent on testosterone dose and significantly correlated with total (r = 0.35, and 0.44, P < 0.0001 for type I and II fibers, respectively) and free (r = 0.34 and 0.35, P < 0.005) testosterone concentrations during treatment. The men receiving 300 and 600 mg of TE weekly experienced significant increases from baseline in areas of type I (baseline vs. 20 wk, 3,176 +/- 186 vs. 4,201 +/- 252 microm(2), P < 0.05 at 300-mg dose, and 3,347 +/- 253 vs. 4,984 +/- 374 microm(2), P = 0.006 at 600-mg dose) muscle fibers; the men in the 600-mg group also had significant increments in cross-sectional area of type II (4,060 +/- 401 vs. 5,526 +/- 544 microm(2), P = 0.03) fibers. The relative proportions of type I and type II fibers did not change significantly after treatment in any group. The myonuclear number per fiber increased significantly in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses of TE and was significantly correlated with testosterone concentration and muscle fiber cross-sectional area. In conclusion, the increases in muscle volume in healthy eugonadal men treated with graded doses of testosterone are associated with concentration-dependent increases in cross-sectional areas of both type I and type II muscle fibers and myonuclear number. We conclude that the testosterone induced increase in muscle volume is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy.
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    Cool, thats good stuff man. I appreciate the info!

    ~abuleh
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    How do you dose arimidex at .25mg since they are 1mg pills? Just cut them into tiny ass chunks or what?
  

  
 

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