HCG and HMG

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    HCG and HMG


    I'm thinking about running HCG during my next 12 week Test E cycle (and during 2 weeks after last shot before PCT. During those 2 weeks I will also pin HMG alongside the HCG. I think 50-75IU alongside 250IU 3x/week (so that would be 6 doses of the HMG and 6 doses of the HCG for the 2 week interim between last test shot and PCT).

    During cycle I will run 250IU HCG 2x/week.

    So just to make sense of this:
    Test E 250mg 2x/week 1-12 (also some other stuff Dbol and EQ probably)
    HCG 250IU 2x/week 3-12
    HCG 250IU 3x/week 13-14
    HMG 50-75IU 3x/week 13-14

    Has anybody run HMG and did you notice quicker recovery?

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    Quote Originally Posted by samadhismiles View Post
    I'm thinking about running HCG during my next 12 week Test E cycle (and during 2 weeks after last shot before PCT. During those 2 weeks I will also pin HMG alongside the HCG. I think 50-75IU alongside 250IU 3x/week (so that would be 6 doses of the HMG and 6 doses of the HCG for the 2 week interim between last test shot and PCT).

    During cycle I will run 250IU HCG 2x/week.

    So just to make sense of this:
    Test E 250mg 2x/week 1-12 (also some other stuff Dbol and EQ probably)
    HCG 250IU 2x/week 3-12
    HCG 250IU 3x/week 13-14
    HMG 50-75IU 3x/week 13-14

    Has anybody run HMG and did you notice quicker recovery?
    I would up your HCG dose to at least 1,000iu per week split in multiple injects. 500iu per week is way too low.
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    Even at a low 500mg/week? Some don't even think hcg is worth it for such a cycle.
    Would like to hear more on your take about hcg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Antony View Post
    Even at a low 500mg/week? Some don't even think hcg is worth it for such a cycle.
    Would like to hear more on your take about hcg.
    Lol, HCG is awesome on cycle. I have used it for almost 3 years now with every conceivable dose and I am totally convinced you need a minimum of 1,000iu per week. I have even used Dr Crisler's protocols but they just were not enough. My current doc prescribes 500iu two times per week but I am using 500iu 3 times weekly now. Here is the science for why you need more HCG;

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
    Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.


    full study;
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron View Post
    Lol, HCG is awesome on cycle. I have used it for almost 3 years now with every conceivable dose and I am totally convinced you need a minimum of 1,000iu per week. I have even used Dr Crisler's protocols but they just were not enough. My current doc prescribes 500iu two times per week but I am using 500iu 3 times weekly now. Here is the science for why you need more HCG;

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
    Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.


    full study;
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595

    Any sense in tappering up hcg, say for example on a 10 week cycle test E either solo, or with deca.

    week 1-3: no hcg
    week 4-6: 250u 3x/week
    week 7-9: 500iu 2x/week
    week 10-12: 500iu 3x/week
    week 13-17-18: pct

    Obviously, this is to combat lh desensitization? How would you go about it? Run hcg from week 1, or wait a bit? Start with 500iu 3x/week from the start, or lower?

    Really helpfull read, as I have been struggling the establish optimal hcg protocol. What is your take on Swale's protocol? And do you inject according to a special timing, morning, prebed, postw/o, prew/o?

    Much Respect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Antony View Post
    Any sense in tappering up hcg, say for example on a 10 week cycle test E either solo, or with deca.

    week 1-3: no hcg
    week 4-6: 250u 3x/week
    week 7-9: 500iu 2x/week
    week 10-12: 500iu 3x/week
    week 13-17-18: pct

    Obviously, this is to combat lh desensitization? How would you go about it? Run hcg from week 1, or wait a bit? Start with 500iu 3x/week from the start, or lower?

    Really helpfull read, as I have been struggling the establish optimal hcg protocol. What is your take on Swale's protocol? And do you inject according to a special timing, morning, prebed, postw/o, prew/o?

    Much Respect.
    According to the data in the trial 300iu eod would be ideal. That equals 1050iu each week. The period of time for restoration was 3 weeks so 3 week bursts seem reasonable if you don't want to take it the whole cycle but I have never seen any data to suggest desensitization at these low doses/durations. Keep in mind that fertility treatments with HCG are 10 times higher in dose and for up to six months or more in duration. Therefore using 500iu twice weekly for a 3 month cycle should be no problem. I personally like the logic of Swales timing on subq injects of HCG, I just think his doses are a little too low for restoration of ITT levels. I shoot subq in the mornings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadhismiles View Post
    Has anybody run HMG and did you notice quicker recovery?
    HMG is purported to be better but 100% not affordable.
  

  
 

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