CK/Anabolic Diet mega thread
- 07-25-2008, 11:05 PM
CK/Anabolic Diet mega thread
Seems that lots of people have questions about this diet. I myself have some and will certainly have more in the future.
Question: If I'm doing a 24 hour carb up on CKD, how many grams of carbs should I shoot for? 500? If I'm using this diet to cut, should I try and maintain the same caloric intake on the carb up day?
- 07-25-2008, 11:35 PM
I'm curious as well, hope you don't mind me taking a seat to listen."I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!" - malleus25
- 07-25-2008, 11:42 PM
Not a problem at all. Hopefully there will be atleast 1 person who knows what they're doing. I have it set out for myself right now where I'll take 556g of carbs from friday night through last meal saturday.
07-25-2008, 11:56 PM
From what you've read, do people still add carbs for their post workout shakes when they're on AD or carbs just on refeed days?
About how much fiber are you pulling in per day?
"I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!" - malleus25
07-26-2008, 12:11 AM
Only people who add carbs around work out are those on TKD or targeted ketogenic diet. Targeted meaning carb intake is targeted around workouts. I haven't had any strength issues (only endurance) with CKD so I haven't switched to TKD. I take just about 20g carbs ED Sunday-Friday night.
Theoretically on the CKD your insulin is so regulated and level that carbs in pwo aren't needed.
07-26-2008, 02:28 AM
According to Lyle Macdonalds work, it's about 4.5 grams of carbohydrates per a pound of lean mass. Assuming you've worked off enough energy to sufficiently deplete glycogen levels through the week this should bring you back to 100 percent of your glycogen storage levels.
07-26-2008, 01:53 PM
There's a calculator for it. I did the CKD/anabolic diet before. I dont reccomend a 24 hour carb load unless your under 8% BF.
I would also not pig out during this time either. Maybe have one bad meal but thats it. Keep fats relatively low like 80gr or so and keep protein the same. Your calories during this time don't really matter because your body is suppose to still be using the fat as fuel and the carbs should be shuttled to the muscles to restore glycogen levels.
I think I book marked the calculator but it also called for 24-48 hour carb loads, which IMO, are waaaaay too much for dieting.
IMO here's how the carb load time should be
18%+.....1 high carb meal 100gr carbs
15-17%.....2-4hr carb loads 150gr carbs
12-14%.....4-6hr carb load 200-250gr carbs
10-11%......6-8hr carb loads 250-300gr carbs
<10%.....12-24hr carb loads 300-400gr carbs.
again I have no science but just from what I have gathered with my diet over the years. I really don't see the point to go over 400gr carbs.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
07-26-2008, 02:24 PM
Rugger1, If you're going for full glycogen supercompensation then you need to be eating a lot more carbs on the weekend (and a carb up longer than 24 hours). This is what I used when cutting:
During the first 24 hours: 16xLBM(kg) For me this was about 1152g CHO during the first 24 hours. It is extremely difficult to consume this many carbohydrates during the first 24 hours if you don't drink liquid carbs (in the form of simple sugars and glucose polymers). It may seem difficult to eat this much (especially becuase you're eating a grip of protein as well), but you need to tough it out because you only do it once a week.
During the second 24 hours: about 8-10xLBM(kg) At this point insulin sensitivity begins to decline so the second 24 hours should consist of solid starches (rice, potatoes, pasta, etc.).
You don't need to be scared if your carb up lasts a bit longer than 48 hours. Sometimes mine would last 50 hours or so. The above protocol is Dan Duchaine's and helped me to lose some good bodyfat. The problem I think people have with carbing up and storing fat is that they keep the fat content too high during the carb up. The sweet spot is that 60/30/10. I could go into this with much greater detail but I don't think most people will want to follow this protocol because at first glance they just write this carb up off thinking that its going to make them fat. What people don't understand is that a CKD is not a cutting diet, but it is rather a recomposition diet. Your workouts need to coincide with your glycogen levels in order to reap the benefits of this diet. Without getting everything in order you're better off just sticking to a different diet because the results will be less than stellar, IMHO.
07-26-2008, 02:27 PM
07-26-2008, 02:33 PM
07-26-2008, 02:36 PM
That is a very good article. One of the most important points you can take away from this article is that in order to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation your carb load should start IMMEDIATELY following a depletion workout.
07-26-2008, 02:37 PM
07-26-2008, 02:37 PM
07-26-2008, 02:41 PM
07-26-2008, 02:46 PM
So for the first 24, just eat simples like malto, wms, gatorate, white bread etc? I think that will be really hard to do in large numbers. What would some other foods be that are high in simples but can be eaten in bulk? Wouldn't regular pasta instead of wheat pasta fit this bill for the first 24?
07-26-2008, 02:52 PM
07-26-2008, 02:57 PM
Even if you go with a protocol with less carbs and protein you should still follow the types of carbs I have suggested. And don't go above 10% fat whatever you do during the carb up. This can slow digestion as well as the insulin response that we are trying to set up. As far as the amount of carbs and protein I have listed, none of this is set in stone. Honestly, the entire feild of nutrition is still in its infancy. If you used a different protocol you will still see results, I am just telling you what has worked best for me through trial and error.
07-26-2008, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the tips. I really appreciate it. I'll plan something out that includes lots of simples for the beginning and then just piling on as much as I can. I assume it's safe to say that caloric intake can be disregarded.
07-26-2008, 03:02 PM
07-26-2008, 11:56 PM
07-27-2008, 10:59 PM
08-07-2008, 08:15 PM
08-08-2008, 11:26 PM
08-09-2008, 01:25 PM
I'm sorry if I rambled there. I don't know if I really answered your question. Did you want me to post a sample of a full body depletion workout?
08-09-2008, 02:01 PM
08-09-2008, 04:49 PM
08-13-2008, 02:07 PM
Squat: 185(20) 185(20)
Leg Extensions: 105(20) 105(20)
Good Mornings: 85(20) 95(20)
Leg Curls: 90(20) 90(20)
Single Leg Calf Raise on Leg Press Machine: 170(20) 170(20)
Standing Single Leg Calf Raise: bw(20) bw(20)
Pull-ups: bw(20) bw(20)
1 Arm DB Rows: 40(20) 45(20)
Upright Rows: 60(20) 60(20)
Flat Bench Press: 135(20) 145(12)<--Drop 115(10)
Incline Bench Press: 115(15)<--drop 95(10) 115(12)<--drop 95(8)
Wide Grip Bench Press: 115(18) 115(15) Superset w/
Push ups: bw(10) bw(8)
Hyperextensions: REP OUT bw(25)
DB Overhead Press: 40's(12)<--drop 30's(8)<--drop 20's(6) 30's(12)<--drop 20's(8)
Standing BB Curls: 75(20) 75(18)<--drop 65(8)
Close Grip Bench Press: 95(15)<--drop 85(8) 95(12)<--drop 85(7)<--drop 75(4)
French Press: 50(15)<--drop 40(8) 50(12)<--drop 40(9)
DB Side Lateral Raise: 10's(20) 10's(20)
DB Bent Lateral Raise: 10's(20) 10's(25)
Wrist Curls: REP OUT 30(45)
Sit-up w/ twist: 3x30
Count down abs: crunches(30), leg lifts(25), jack knives(20)
Weights are kept low as the pump just became too much for me at that high of reps to go heavier. The wrist curls are something I would usually never do as I think they hold no value as a strength builder but when the goal is to deplete every last bit of glycogen then even smiling will be helpful during this workout.
08-13-2008, 02:14 PM
08-13-2008, 02:16 PM
You do them circuit style correct? So you do 2 circuits or what?
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
08-13-2008, 02:39 PM
08-13-2008, 02:42 PM
I was doing about 8 exercises circuit style and about 4-5 circuits. Resting about 1min between exercises and 3-5 min between circuits. Usually until I felt like I was going to puke. I like your better a lot better.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
08-13-2008, 02:58 PM
08-13-2008, 09:23 PM
I've Been doing Anabolic Diet for about 6 weeks now. I play beach volleyball on Wednesdays and today I had no energy. Normally I'm pretty energetic, but I could tell I was carb depleted today. Next Wednesday I want to be able to give 100% as its the playoffs.
How much of carb up should I look to do Tues night/Wed, so I can give my peak performance Wednesday evening?
I typically carb up on Friday evenings through Saturday night. I also play on Saturdays and Sundays so I don't want to skip that carb up. Thanks in advance for responses.
08-14-2008, 01:44 PM
If this is something you are not interested in doing and you still want to carb up on Friday night through Saturday then I would suggest that you make the carb spike during the week on Wednesday morning. This should keep your energy levels nice and high for your game on Wednesday night.
08-14-2008, 03:33 PM
I have another question for you, RobInKuwait - how many carbs are you consuming over the course of Friday evening to Saturday night? I have used a carb spike during the week when playing sports and it definately helped me out but I also found that keeping my carb up to the weekend say 48-50 hours straight and eating tons of carbs really prepared me fully for the next week, no matter what my physical demands were.
08-14-2008, 05:01 PM
I normally do feel better without carbs, but for some reason I was sucking wind last night and playing bad. I am also on Leviathan, so I was thinking the Yohimbe may also be doing that.
I think I'm going to give the Wed morning carb up a chance. I don't want to mess with the Fri/Sat night carb up as that is my time for going out to restaurants with the wife and family and downing a couple of beers with friends.
Thanks for the input, and I'll let you know how the carb up affects my performance.
08-14-2008, 05:08 PM
On Saturday, I'll have oatmeal or cereal, a sandwich, a wrap, and go out for dinner on Saturday night followed by some beers and snacks. I also try to eat whatever I've been craving all week.
I can definitely feel and see a difference after the carb up and usually gain about 5-8 pounds in the 1.5 days, but its always gone by Tuesday. My carb up is probably not optimal, but to me the carb up is my time to maintain sanity and being able to go out to eat and drink with friends and family.
08-14-2008, 08:24 PM
08-14-2008, 08:30 PM
08-15-2008, 07:45 PM
I often receive PM's related to cyclic diets. Many of the questions I receive are the same and it seems that if all the information was compiled into a single thread it would be easier for everyone. I'm glad Rugger has taken the initiative to start this thread so I think that this is a good place for all of this information to go. Anyways, earlier today I have been communicating with Cessna via PM and I have his permission to post the message in this thread for everyone else who may have the same questions.
Well to be honest it would be impossible for you to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation over a 24 hour period. I would still advise you to eat 2g of CHO per KG of LBM for the first 4 meals immediately after your depletion workout. From the second morning of your carb load forward I would just focus on eating as many CHO's as you can and keeping your macros on point.hey botch i came to you because you have knowledge on this subject i hope you dont mind helping me a little bit on some doubts that i have and if you can give some advices that will be great.
1) first i been reading about the carb load day and im unsure how many grams per LBM do i have to take assuming im doing 24 hours only.
No, it has been my experience that this is not something you need to do. It may help you though on days when you are feeling extra sluggish. I would eat a banana before the depletion workout sometimes, but it really never made a difference for me either way. I have heard experts also comment that the high fructose meal before the depletion workout is unneccesary.2) do i really have to take a piece of fruit 2 hours before my depletion workout?
Not even. For the first 4 meals immediately following the depletion workout you should be consuming 2g of CHO per KG of LBM. Lets do the math here...for you that would mean you have 57.9 KG of LBM which would equate to 115.8g CHO every two hours. This would be closer to 2 gatorades every two hours, which is totally fine to drink by the way. The other point I want to make is that one scoop of whey protein will not suffice. Your macronutrient breakdown on the carb up should be 60/30/10 which would mean you need to be taking in ~58g of protein every two hours. Since the fat content should be 10% you will need ~7g of fat with each one of these meals as well.3) lets say after my depletion workout i have a scoop of whey protein with a gatorade is this sufficient or should i take something else or more liquid?
I would attempt to get those first 4 meals I listed above in on the same night that you had your workout. This means your last meal may be as late as 1:00am. Since you are only doing a 24 hour carb load, I would opt for starchy carbs during the next "phase" (basically once you wake up the next morning until the carb load is over). And since you are only loading for 24 hours I would eat as many carbs as I could. Rice, pasta, potatoes are all good choices. Just try and keep your macros to the 60/30/10 that was proposed. You may also find in the future that you want to extend your carb load to a full 48 hours.4) asumming my depletion w/o ends at 7:00 pm after my post workout meal, should my dinner consist of simple carbs and how many grams from protein? if you can give me an example it will be better just to have an idea
Not necessarily, but I like the enthusiasm! Usually if I wake up to pee during the night I'll get in a quick meal during the carb load. This does help to keep insulin levels stable. I do have to say though, if you go to bed before 1:00am I would really try and get in those four meals on the night of the depletion workout even if you have to wake up for the last one.5) do i have to get up at the middle of the night to eat to get a better glycogen compensation? (i dont mind to do it)
As posted above, I would move to starchy carbs during the second morning of your carb load and finish it off with starchy carbs from there. If you're not eating all starchy carbs though during the second day it wouldn't be a huge deal.6) my breakfast should still be simple carbs?
( do my meal always have to contain liquid CHO?)
(when do i move from eating HIGH-GLYCEMIC CHO to LOW GLYCEMIC CHO ASSUMING IM DOING 24 HOURS?)
Yes. Every 2 hours would be ideal.7) do i have to eat every 2 or 3 hours?
I don't have cheat meals on this diet (aside from a few beers during the carb load, which won't set you back). Cheat meals will set you back a bit if you're idea of a cheat meal is high in fat and high in carbs. I tend to go into the carb up thinking that it is a huge cheat though. So I am satisfied with what I eat during the load just because I am happy to be eating carbs. If your idea of a cheat is sugary stuff then you can definately have some candy during the first day of the carb load. Also, usually by the time the high carb weekend is over I am looking forward to going back to high fat. Cheat meals for me tend to be high in fat so if I want a cheat meal then I will have something during the week that is low in carbs but still satisfies my cravings. I am also a dessert chef for an italian restaurant, and have experimented at home with different dessert recipes using sucralose instead of sugar...and let me tell you the baked goods turn out just as tasty as the real deal! It is up to you whether or not you want to have a cheat meal though. Through trial and error you will see what you can and can't "pull off" on this diet.8) what is the best period to have the "cheat" meal
Chromium? That one is new to me on a low carb diet. But I am surprised more people don't ask about the vitamin deficencies that can occur on this diet. As far as magnesium is concerned, you should be taking it every day along with zinc and potassium. A zinc, potassium, and magnesium supplement before bed would be a good addition (though I am not such a fan of the ZMK product that is out due to other added ingredients). Just plain ZMA and a potassium supplement (preferably a chelated version) would be good. I would also opt for 400-800IU's of vitamin E (mixed tocopherols) every day on this diet, about 500mg of vitamin C in three daily doses, and B vitamins regularly throughout the day. What I have listed here are ESSENTIAL while you're on this diet as your body is not getting the nutrients that it needs otherwise.9) do i take my chromium, magnesium and ALA during the carb load 24 hour period?
As far as ALA is concerned I would not mess with anything that manipulates insulin during the carb load. Your insulin sensitivity is already much altered from a normal person by the nature of the diet you are using and you don't need these things during the carb load. I will say that ALA or other variations should be used on monday morning and monday evening as well as tuesday morning to help lower blood sugar after the carb load.
Without you telling me how many reps you have been doing I cannot say. But I can say that your reps should be in the 6-8 range (about 80% of your 1RM) for the Monday and Tuesday workouts.10) my workout on monday and tuesday should be higher reps that i usually been doing?
If you go more than 12 days your workouts may suffer and you do run the risk of slowing down your metabolism. There are nasty side effects associated with straight ketogenic diets and quite frankly I don't recommend them for anyone except in cases of VERY obese people. Ketosis is a strange thing. When you are very deep in ketosis your body is actually less efficient at burning fat. Like I said before I would not worry about the ketostrips. DiPasquale (author of the Anabolic Diet) hates talk about ketosis. If you were to do a true AD then you would not want to be in ketosis at any point in time. On the AD your blood glucose should hover around 95 throughout the entire week. Just know this, you can still burn fat efficiently without being in ketosis.11) what could happen if i go more than 12 days (induction phase) and i wait lets say 24 days to do carb load do i run the risk to slow down my metabolism i ask you this because i took the ketostrips test and it came negative but assuming i been eating less that 20 carbs a day i should be burning fat for energy or not?
Anytime .THIS ARE MY CURRENT STATS:
FAT WEIGHT 12.6
im sorry for all this bunch of question but ill really appreciate if you can give me like a little guidance thanks in adnvance botch
BTW is it cool with you if I post this up in the CK/Anabolic diet thread? I think that there are a lot of GOOD questions here that others may also have. Please let me know.
This is the response from the previous PM:
Correct. You can eat whatever you would like for protein. Err...there are some I wouldn't recommend like drinking soy protein with every meal but hey, that's just me.hey botch ur awesome thanks for take the time to answers all this doubts.
i dont have a problem you can post those questions on the CK/Anabolic diet thread so more people can learn.
so im gonna try 24 hour period for this time just to see whats the difference between 24 and 48 hours
so as protein is concerned it dosent matter where it comes from right? IMO (whey, fish, chicken,tunna, cottage cheese, fat free milk because are lean sources am i right?
This looks very familiar . It is the same carb up protocol that I use. Your breakfast looks very tasty and is making my mouth water. You will be just fine eating those foods during the carb up, most important thing is keeping the macro ratios in check.ill be using this protocol for the carbs:
Substage A: Meals 1-4
2g liquid CHO/kg LBM (simple sugars or glucose polymers) PER MEAL
Substage B: Meals 5-8
1.5g liquid CHO + solid High-glycemic CHO (i.e.- corn flakes)/kg LBM PER MEAL
Substage C: Meals 9-12
0.5g solid starches + some liquid CHOs PER MEAL
so you think this can be a good example of a breakfast lets say milk and a cereal (any kind)+ eggs whittes OR pancakes+ sugar free syrup and fat free ice cream+ eggs whites (im asking you this because i have some tasty cravings of those foods lol)
Good choice. This is also what I do.as for fat ill be eating wallnuts
No, since you are only doing a 24 hour carb load you should eat as much as you can, really. Even if you were carbing up for 48 hours it wouldn't be such a big deal if you go over a bit here or there.also is there any problem if at any meal i go over my amount of carbs?
The fructose in gatorade is a VERY small amount. I wouldn't be concerned, but I'm glad that you've done your homework . It is mostly made up of simple sugars. But another good liquid CHO that you could drink during this time is waxy maise starch or maltodextrin (glucose polymers). A big tub of this can be bought at Nutraplanet for very cheap.and since the gatorade comes with fructose and that goes directly to the liver its there any other liquid choice you can recommend?
Anytime my friend.thanks botch
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