Ephedrine and Blood Glucose

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    Ephedrine and Blood Glucose


    Here's one quick example from Pubmed emphasis mine:

    Enhanced stimulant and metabolic effects of combined ephedrine and caffeine.

    * Haller CA,
    * Jacob P 3rd,
    * Benowitz NL.

    Department of Medicine, Division of Clinical Pharmacology, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94143, USA. dchaller@worldnet.att.net

    OBJECTIVE: Herbal weight loss and athletic performance-enhancing supplements that contain ephedrine and caffeine have been associated with serious adverse health events. We sought to determine whether ephedrine and caffeine have clinically significant pharmacologic interactions that explain these toxicities. METHODS: Sixteen healthy adults ingested 25 mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, or both drugs in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study. Plasma and urine samples were collected over a 24-hour period and analyzed by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry for ephedrine and caffeine concentrations. Heart rate, blood pressure, and subjective responses were recorded. Serum hormonal and metabolic markers were serially measured during a 3-hour fasting period. RESULTS: Ephedrine plus caffeine increased systolic blood pressure (peak difference, 11.7 +/- 9.4 mm Hg; compared with placebo, P =.0005) and heart rate (peak difference, 5.9 +/- 8.8 beats/min; compared with placebo, P =.001) and raised fasting glucose, insulin, free fatty acid, and lactate concentrations. Ephedrine alone increased heart rate and glucose and insulin concentrations but did not affect systolic blood pressure. Caffeine increased systolic blood pressure and plasma free fatty acid and urinary epinephrine concentrations but did not increase heart rate. Compared with ephedrine, caffeine produced more subjective stimulant effects. Clinically significant pharmacokinetic interactions between ephedrine and caffeine were not observed. Women taking oral contraceptives had prolonged caffeine elimination (mean elimination half-life, 9.7 hours versus 5.0 hours in men; P =.05), but sex differences in pharmacodynamic responses were not seen. CONCLUSIONS: The individual effects of ephedrine and caffeine were modest, but the drugs in combination produced significant cardiovascular, metabolic, and hormonal responses. These enhanced effects appear to be a result of pharmacodynamic rather than pharmacokinetic interactions.

    PMID: 15060505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    ^^pulled this form Tnation. I have heard about this before. Now I know the aspirin may help with the spikes in cystolic BP but does anyone think the increases in blood glucose while using EC/ECA is something to worry about. (non diabetics?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...does anyone think the increases in blood glucose while using EC/ECA is something to worry about...
    For the last two days I've been using my glucose monitor to check my blood glucose after ingestion of coffee.

    • Black coffee w/ no additives = zero rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Stevia = a 2 point rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Splenda = a 5 - 8 point rise in glucose.
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & generic Coffee Mate creamer = 15+ point rise in glucose
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & 2% Lactose free Milk = 17+ point rise in glucose


    The take home message for you is that caffeine in a cup of coffee does not effect blood glucose BUT the additives sure as heck do!

    How do you reduce the rise in blood glucose w/ these additives (besides the obvious)? ....add FIBER.

    So ingesting 2 grams of Psyllium Husk powder just prior to drinking Coffee w/ Splenda & Coffee Mate creamer resulted in only a 4 point rise in blood glucose. WOW!

    I have never done any monitoring of blood glucose after taking ephedrine or ephedrine+caffeine but I don't imagine that it would be that high. But if it were or if it is a concern of yours add FIBER and it should reduce the blood glucose spike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    For the last two days I've been using my glucose monitor to check my blood glucose after ingestion of coffee.

    • Black coffee w/ no additives = zero rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Stevia = a 2 point rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Splenda = a 5 - 8 point rise in glucose.
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & generic Coffee Mate creamer = 15+ point rise in glucose
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & 2% Lactose free Milk = 17+ point rise in glucose


    The take home message for you is that caffeine in a cup of coffee does not effect blood glucose BUT the additives sure as heck do!

    How do you reduce the rise in blood glucose w/ these additives (besides the obvious)? ....add FIBER.

    So ingesting 2 grams of Psyllium Husk powder just prior to drinking Coffee w/ Splenda & Coffee Mate creamer resulted in only a 4 point rise in blood glucose. WOW!

    I have never done any monitoring of blood glucose after taking ephedrine or ephedrine+caffeine but I don't imagine that it would be that high. But if it were or if it is a concern of yours add FIBER and it should reduce the blood glucose spike.

    thats very interesting..... I will do that. But I thought that the issue was that ephedrine and caffeine were KEEPING blood glucose elevated for some reason.... I really dont think its something I will worry about to any large degree. But just an inquiry.

    hey dat,

    have you ever measured the blood glucose response to BCAA or the popular BCAA product Xtend.? that would be interesting to note considering many including myself sip on it throughout the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...
    have you ever measured the blood glucose response to BCAA or the popular BCAA product Xtend.? that would be interesting to note considering many including myself sip on it throughout the day.
    No I haven't but I did discover that Xtend negated the "weight loss" effect of VS taken at night.

    I love to sip on coffee though...so that was my motivation for breaking out the glucose monitor and torturing my finger tips.
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    The additives in the coffee are contributing to a BG increase because they contribute positive calories. I thought that Stevia was zero calorie however a 2 pt change on a ng/dL scale could just be error. Splenda contains maltodextrin.

    Ephedrine, on the other hand is related to adrenaline, which triggers glucose release. Caffeine does not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    The additives in the coffee are contributing to a BG increase because they contribute positive calories. I thought that Stevia was zero calorie however a 2 pt change on a ng/dL scale could just be error. Splenda contains maltodextrin.

    Ephedrine, on the other hand is related to adrenaline, which triggers glucose release. Caffeine does not.
    right I was aware that ephedrine was the cause of BG rise, but what Im asking is whether or not its something to worry about? and what steps should be taken to control this? I think the aspirin play some role....not sure. I suppose the use of chromium and vanadyl sulfate could help dispose of extra BG
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    For the last two days I've been using my glucose monitor to check my blood glucose after ingestion of coffee.

    • Black coffee w/ no additives = zero rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Stevia = a 2 point rise in glucose
    • Black coffee w/ Splenda = a 5 - 8 point rise in glucose.
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & generic Coffee Mate creamer = 15+ point rise in glucose
    • Coffee w/ Splenda & 2% Lactose free Milk = 17+ point rise in glucose


    The take home message for you is that caffeine in a cup of coffee does not effect blood glucose BUT the additives sure as heck do!

    How do you reduce the rise in blood glucose w/ these additives (besides the obvious)? ....add FIBER.

    So ingesting 2 grams of Psyllium Husk powder just prior to drinking Coffee w/ Splenda & Coffee Mate creamer resulted in only a 4 point rise in blood glucose. WOW!

    I have never done any monitoring of blood glucose after taking ephedrine or ephedrine+caffeine but I don't imagine that it would be that high. But if it were or if it is a concern of yours add FIBER and it should reduce the blood glucose spike.
    Honestly this would depend on amount of coffee, a person's insulin resistance, and the time period by which you measured this. Any stimulant such as caffeine is going to cause an increase in blood glucose. It increases norepinephrine, which is what gives you the fight or flight feeling and rapid heart rate. The sympathetic nervous system takes over and blood vessels in most organs such as the stomach and places like the penis restrict, while the blood vessels to the brain and skeletal muscles dilate. This is what causes that spike in blood pressure, the contraction of many of the blood vessels not important to fight or flight.
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    Glucophage XR, aka extended release metformin HCl can help control blood glucose levels by reducing an increase in BG from breaking down glycogen.

    A coffee berry extract does this, too. I've seen it offered through Life Extension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil5585 View Post
    Glucophage XR, or extended release metformin HCl can help control blood glucose levels by reducing an increase in BG from breaking down glycogen.

    A coffee berry extract does this, too. I've seen it offered through Life Extension.
    very interesting. You have a link?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    right I was aware that ephedrine was the cause of BG rise, but what Im asking is whether or not its something to worry about? and what steps should be taken to control this? I think the aspirin play some role....not sure. I suppose the use of chromium and vanadyl sulfate could help dispose of extra BG
    I am confused. Why is it that you want to use a product to lower high BG caused by taking another product?

    Drop the ephedrine and use coffee in moderation. Problem solved and your body will probably thank you for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    The additives in the coffee are contributing to a BG increase because they contribute positive calories. I thought that Stevia was zero calorie however a 2 pt change on a ng/dL scale could just be error. Splenda contains maltodextrin.

    Ephedrine, on the other hand is related to adrenaline, which triggers glucose release. Caffeine does not.
    Nitrox I always enjoy reading your posts especially when it pertains to insulin & blood sugar. I appreciate you bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Honestly this would depend on amount of coffee, a person's insulin resistance, and the time period by which you measured this. Any stimulant such as caffeine is going to cause an increase in blood glucose. It increases norepinephrine, which is what gives you the fight or flight feeling and rapid heart rate. The sympathetic nervous system takes over and blood vessels in most organs such as the stomach and places like the penis restrict, while the blood vessels to the brain and skeletal muscles dilate. This is what causes that spike in blood pressure, the contraction of many of the blood vessels not important to fight or flight.
    Thanks Lake...very informative post as usual...much appreciated.

    My tests were more about the additives then the caffeine. However as a non-diabetic a cup of black coffee has zero effect on my blood glucose...in fact in moderation (say 4 spaced out cups a day) it has zero effect on my blood glucose. This is from multiple testing of coffee ingestion at least an hour after a meal.

    I would be surprised if moderate black coffee drinking effected glucose levels in others...at least to any significant degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Thanks Lake...very informative post as usual...much appreciated.

    My tests were more about the additives then the caffeine. However as a non-diabetic a cup of black coffee has zero effect on my blood glucose...in fact in moderation (say 4 spaced out cups a day) it has zero effect on my blood glucose. This is from multiple testing of coffee ingestion at least an hour after a meal.

    I would be surprised if moderate black coffee drinking effected glucose levels in others...at least to any significant degree.
    Yeah, I just wanted to point out to everyone that theoretically this is how they work, etc. It is going to effect everyone differently and I agree that it needs to be done in moderation. It is interesting to see the spikes in insulin though from such minute amounts of additives lol. People take note .


    Nitrox is absolutely right that your body will thank you for it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    ...It is interesting to see the spikes in insulin though from such minute amounts of additives lol. People take note .
    EXACTLY...this is important to know, especially if you are dieting. The following is what prompted me to check blood sugar...as I was intermittently fasting and drinking a cup of coffee...

    From the textbook Biochemical and Physiological Aspects of Human Nutrition, Stipanuk et al. ed. 2000

    Insulin ...is secreted in response to changes in circulating glucose; a change of as little as 2mg/100ml of plasma can be detected by the pancreas. Insulin release can also be stimulated in response to certain amino acids in the circulation. Other important signals for insulin secretion include gut hormones and nervous stimulation. - p395

    In adipose tissue insulin increases fatty acid uptake and triacylglycerol storage via increases in lipoprotein lipase activity, and at the same time decreases lipolysis by decreasing hormone-sensitive lipase activity. The latter may be one of insulin's strongest actions because it occurs at very low insulin levels and effectively lowers the levels of free fatty acids in the circulation thereby decreasing there utilization as fuel. - p396
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post

    In adipose tissue insulin increases fatty acid uptake and triacylglycerol storage via increases in lipoprotein lipase activity, [/B] - p396[/INDENT]
    This is actually the interesting part of IGF-1, is that it binds to insulin receptors, yet not to adipose tissue.

    But very interesting read.
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    The use of fiber probably has no effect on glucose triggered by ephedrine or large amounts of caffeine but it will if used w/ food that triggers glucose rise.

    Again from the textbook Biochemical and Physiological Aspects of Human Nutrition, Stipanuk et al. ed. 2000

    Soluable viscous polysaccharides [certain fibers] can delay and even interfere with the absorption of nutrients...

    Positive benefits of delayed nutrient absorption include an improvement of glucose tolerance and a lowering of serum cholesterol levels. Delayed absorption of carbohydrates results in a lower postprandial (following a meal) glucose level. In general the more viscous the fiber the greater the effect on blood glucose. This is similiar to the effect seen with eating several small meals rather than one large meal. When glucose is absorbed in small amounts over an extended period, such as seen with viscous fibers, the insulin response is attenuated (Pick, et al. (1996) Oat bran concentrate bread products improve long term control of diabetes: A pilot study J. Am Diet Assoc 96:1254-1261)

    ...

    Viscosity of the polysaccharides and their ability to form gels in the stomach appear to slow gastric emptying. This in turn results in a more uniform presentation of the meal to the small intestine for absorption. [Poorly soluable fibers that do not form gels such as wheat and cellulose have little effect...unlike those that do which include guar gum, pectin, psyllium, oat bran.] - p146. 147
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    This is actually the interesting part of IGF-1, is that it binds to insulin receptors, yet not to adipose tissue.
    YES. And THAT is what I have argued IS the primary benefit of IGF-1. Thats why I like a dosing protocol of 10mcg per day run for long periods of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    YES. And THAT is what I have argued IS the primary benefit of IGF-1. Thats why I like a dosing protocol of 10mcg per day run for long periods of time.
    Yeah I have been advocating lower dosages for longer periods for the last two years on this board. I don't think my sticky post is up anymore but I had written a 10 page article on that because I was sick of seeing people take such high dosages. It is a great way to keep BG down and prevent fat gain but beyond that it isn't anything amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Yeah I have been advocating lower dosages for longer periods for the last two years on this board. I don't think my sticky post is up anymore but I had written a 10 page article on that because I was sick of seeing people take such high dosages. It is a great way to keep BG down and prevent fat gain but beyond that it isn't anything amazing.

    I have found IGF-1 when NOT used in conjunction with other peptides like pegMGF usuefull for exactly what you mentioned above, as well as its connective tissue healing abilities. I notice also that my finger and toe nails grow noticeably faster even when on 10mcg EOD to E3D.....

    for keeping blood glucose down to prevent fat gain I think I would respond better to 10mcg ED. the E3D seems to inconsistent for my body. to each his own
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I have found IGF-1 when NOT used in conjunction with other peptides like pegMGF usuefull for exactly what you mentioned above, as well as its connective tissue healing abilities. I notice also that my finger and toe nails grow noticeably faster even when on 10mcg EOD to E3D.....

    for keeping blood glucose down to prevent fat gain I think I would respond better to 10mcg ED. the E3D seems to inconsistent for my body. to each his own
    Yeah I mean PEG-MGF doesn't really play a role in all of that anyways. It can be used effectively but the dosages have to be just right. It has a very long half life and MGF, even though it increases satellite cell proliferation, actually decreases differentiation and can have a deleterious effect on muscle growth in too high of a dosage. But if the dosage is just right you can rapidly increase healing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Yeah I mean PEG-MGF doesn't really play a role in all of that anyways. It can be used effectively but the dosages have to be just right. It has a very long half life and MGF, even though it increases satellite cell proliferation, actually decreases differentiation and can have a deleterious effect on muscle growth in too high of a dosage. But if the dosage is just right you can rapidly increase healing.
    yea its still new....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    Yeah I have been advocating lower dosages for longer periods for the last two years on this board. I don't think my sticky post is up anymore but I had written a 10 page article on that because I was sick of seeing people take such high dosages. It is a great way to keep BG down and prevent fat gain but beyond that it isn't anything amazing.
    I remember something you wrote...it was a different position then Grunt...something to the effect that there is no local site specific growth, it all goes systemic...

    ...here we are a couple years later and practical experience by a LOT of users (mostly off this board) has proved you correct on that point.

    Now those users more in tune w/ their bodies have come to realize that IGF-1 LR3 isn't really DIRECTLY responsible for overall muscle growth...so once again you were way ahead of the curve on that one.

    A few years ago the only trainers saying use small amounts (if at all) were Muscle trainee and Dave Palumbo...

    Lake, have you ever used the nonLR3 IGF-1 (IGF-1 RH)? Maybe pinned that one 3 times a day and then compared it to the LR3 version...

    I was wondering if the IGF-1 RH might prove to be better...I have seen a few claim so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    I remember something you wrote...it was a different position then Grunt...something to the effect that there is no local site specific growth, it all goes systemic...

    ...here we are a couple years later and practical experience by a LOT of users (mostly off this board) has proved you correct on that point.

    Now those users more in tune w/ their bodies have come to realize that IGF-1 LR3 isn't really DIRECTLY responsible for overall muscle growth...so once again you were way ahead of the curve on that one.

    A few years ago the only trainers saying use small amounts (if at all) were Muscle trainee and Dave Palumbo...

    Lake, have you ever used the nonLR3 IGF-1 (IGF-1 RH)? Maybe pinned that one 3 times a day and then compared it to the LR3 version...

    I was wondering if the IGF-1 RH might prove to be better...I have seen a few claim so.

    Well as nerdy as I was and as much damn research as I did on that damn compound I would have hoped I was somewhat right lol. I literally studied that stuff all day, it absolutely intrigued me at the time. Dave palumbo was saying it but there was something about his dosing that was insane and I forgot what it was.

    I had definitely told people that PEG-MGF was going to go systemic, the stuff was just too damn stable. I mean that isn't a bad thing by any means, but with that half life you have to expect it to go systemic. There is a reason why regular MGF's half life is so short, it only needs to act on the cells right next to where it is secreted pretty much, it has no reason to last long in the body.

    As for the RH IGF-1 I have never used it. The stuff is so expensive that it is far too hard to just buy some up and test it out ya know.
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    Yea I have used LR3 for a while, using different protocols. Any time I used it I got the following result: increase in appetite that eventually normalizes, smoother PCT recovery, Significant impact on connective tissue repair (I had a few tendon issues) and that is about it. I agree that LR3 is not responsible to site specific growth, and I am not so sure that using it the way we have been causes any muscle growth.
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    I have heard conflicting things. I have heard that ECA can increase BG concentrations and YET people say avoid using insulin when using Ephedrine.......this doesnt make sense to me. what if using slin ONLY PWO? I mean.. if insulin shuttles glucose OUT of the bloodstream and ECA increases blood glucose concentrations than if anything it could only help...?
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    bump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I have heard conflicting things. I have heard that ECA can increase BG concentrations and YET people say avoid using insulin when using Ephedrine.......this doesnt make sense to me. what if using slin ONLY PWO? I mean.. if insulin shuttles glucose OUT of the bloodstream and ECA increases blood glucose concentrations than if anything it could only help...?
    Or simply nullify the effects of the ephedrine altogether.

    The body wants to maintain a stable BG level of around 90 ng/dL. Anything above that is deemed excess energy and triggers a storage response of insulin until it returns to 90. Below that level (caused by activity), down to about 72, there is insufficient circulating energy and glucagon is released to catabolize stored energy. Below that is considered critical and the body then releases epinephrine (adrenaline) to quickly release stored energy to get levels back to normal.

    Ephedrine produces adrenaline-like effects. Dosing insulin at the same time basically tells your body to do two opposing things at once.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Or simply nullify the effects of the ephedrine altogether.

    The body wants to maintain a stable BG level of around 90 ng/dL. Anything above that is deemed excess energy and triggers a storage response of insulin until it returns to 90. Below that level (caused by activity), down to about 72, there is insufficient circulating energy and glucagon is released to catabolize stored energy. Below that is considered critical and the body then releases epinephrine (adrenaline) to quickly release stored energy to get levels back to normal.

    Ephedrine produces adrenaline-like effects. Dosing insulin at the same time basically tells your body to do two opposing things at once.

    yea i was just wondering if fast acting low dose PWO insulin would be counter-productive with ephedrine
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    If you're taking your ephedrine before your workout, the increased activity will probably use up any above baseline BG anyhow.

    Also taking a small dose of insulin (even say 1 iu of Humalog) can be too much for a non-diabetic. Say you measure your BG and it is slightly high, you have no idea how much natural insulin your own body is currently putting out - remember your body wants to get back to baseline and has its own ability to get there. Say your body is already producing 1 iu and you just add another. Now you've taken too much, your BG will now drop below baseline and now your body has to go catabolic to adjust back the other way. Worst case scenario is that you way overcompensate and without dietary carbohydrate to offset, BG tanks to a disastrous level because while your body can turn off its own 'bolus' insulin when levels tank but it can't change that which you inject.

    Personally I don't think that the benefits of recreational insulin use outweight the costs/risks. I think those who are on large AAS doses and competing can justify it since they are already sacrificing their health for their careers. However I do think that it is a very poor idea for a non-diabetic to try and manage his or her BG levels by using insulin. You just have no way of telling how much your body is already producing.

    If you are going to use it then make sure you take it with an appropriate amount of food (carbs) but that is different from BG control. I know I sound like a broken record but I can't overemphasize the complexities and risks involved.
    Last edited by Nitrox; 03-06-2008 at 11:47 PM.
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