Ephedrine and Blood Glucose
- 02-29-2008, 11:15 PM
Ephedrine and Blood Glucose
Here's one quick example from Pubmed emphasis mine:
Enhanced stimulant and metabolic effects of combined ephedrine and caffeine.
* Haller CA,
* Jacob P 3rd,
* Benowitz NL.
Department of Medicine, Division of Clinical Pharmacology, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94143, USA. email@example.com
OBJECTIVE: Herbal weight loss and athletic performance-enhancing supplements that contain ephedrine and caffeine have been associated with serious adverse health events. We sought to determine whether ephedrine and caffeine have clinically significant pharmacologic interactions that explain these toxicities. METHODS: Sixteen healthy adults ingested 25 mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, or both drugs in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study. Plasma and urine samples were collected over a 24-hour period and analyzed by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry for ephedrine and caffeine concentrations. Heart rate, blood pressure, and subjective responses were recorded. Serum hormonal and metabolic markers were serially measured during a 3-hour fasting period. RESULTS: Ephedrine plus caffeine increased systolic blood pressure (peak difference, 11.7 +/- 9.4 mm Hg; compared with placebo, P =.0005) and heart rate (peak difference, 5.9 +/- 8.8 beats/min; compared with placebo, P =.001) and raised fasting glucose, insulin, free fatty acid, and lactate concentrations. Ephedrine alone increased heart rate and glucose and insulin concentrations but did not affect systolic blood pressure. Caffeine increased systolic blood pressure and plasma free fatty acid and urinary epinephrine concentrations but did not increase heart rate. Compared with ephedrine, caffeine produced more subjective stimulant effects. Clinically significant pharmacokinetic interactions between ephedrine and caffeine were not observed. Women taking oral contraceptives had prolonged caffeine elimination (mean elimination half-life, 9.7 hours versus 5.0 hours in men; P =.05), but sex differences in pharmacodynamic responses were not seen. CONCLUSIONS: The individual effects of ephedrine and caffeine were modest, but the drugs in combination produced significant cardiovascular, metabolic, and hormonal responses. These enhanced effects appear to be a result of pharmacodynamic rather than pharmacokinetic interactions.
PMID: 15060505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
^^pulled this form Tnation. I have heard about this before. Now I know the aspirin may help with the spikes in cystolic BP but does anyone think the increases in blood glucose while using EC/ECA is something to worry about. (non diabetics?)
- 02-29-2008, 11:47 PM
- Black coffee w/ no additives = zero rise in glucose
- Black coffee w/ Stevia = a 2 point rise in glucose
- Black coffee w/ Splenda = a 5 - 8 point rise in glucose.
- Coffee w/ Splenda & generic Coffee Mate creamer = 15+ point rise in glucose
- Coffee w/ Splenda & 2% Lactose free Milk = 17+ point rise in glucose
The take home message for you is that caffeine in a cup of coffee does not effect blood glucose BUT the additives sure as heck do!
How do you reduce the rise in blood glucose w/ these additives (besides the obvious)? ....add FIBER.
So ingesting 2 grams of Psyllium Husk powder just prior to drinking Coffee w/ Splenda & Coffee Mate creamer resulted in only a 4 point rise in blood glucose. WOW!
I have never done any monitoring of blood glucose after taking ephedrine or ephedrine+caffeine but I don't imagine that it would be that high. But if it were or if it is a concern of yours add FIBER and it should reduce the blood glucose spike.
- 02-29-2008, 11:52 PM
thats very interesting..... I will do that. But I thought that the issue was that ephedrine and caffeine were KEEPING blood glucose elevated for some reason.... I really dont think its something I will worry about to any large degree. But just an inquiry.
have you ever measured the blood glucose response to BCAA or the popular BCAA product Xtend.? that would be interesting to note considering many including myself sip on it throughout the day.
03-01-2008, 12:23 AM
03-01-2008, 01:22 AM
The additives in the coffee are contributing to a BG increase because they contribute positive calories. I thought that Stevia was zero calorie however a 2 pt change on a ng/dL scale could just be error. Splenda contains maltodextrin.
Ephedrine, on the other hand is related to adrenaline, which triggers glucose release. Caffeine does not.
03-01-2008, 03:21 PM
03-01-2008, 05:08 PM
03-01-2008, 06:50 PM
Glucophage XR, aka extended release metformin HCl can help control blood glucose levels by reducing an increase in BG from breaking down glycogen.
A coffee berry extract does this, too. I've seen it offered through Life Extension.
03-01-2008, 09:06 PM
03-01-2008, 09:14 PM
03-02-2008, 12:51 AM
03-02-2008, 01:43 AM
03-02-2008, 01:54 AM
My tests were more about the additives then the caffeine. However as a non-diabetic a cup of black coffee has zero effect on my blood glucose...in fact in moderation (say 4 spaced out cups a day) it has zero effect on my blood glucose. This is from multiple testing of coffee ingestion at least an hour after a meal.
I would be surprised if moderate black coffee drinking effected glucose levels in others...at least to any significant degree.
03-02-2008, 09:06 AM
Nitrox is absolutely right that your body will thank you for it!
03-02-2008, 09:59 PM
From the textbook Biochemical and Physiological Aspects of Human Nutrition, Stipanuk et al. ed. 2000
Insulin ...is secreted in response to changes in circulating glucose; a change of as little as 2mg/100ml of plasma can be detected by the pancreas. Insulin release can also be stimulated in response to certain amino acids in the circulation. Other important signals for insulin secretion include gut hormones and nervous stimulation. - p395
In adipose tissue insulin increases fatty acid uptake and triacylglycerol storage via increases in lipoprotein lipase activity, and at the same time decreases lipolysis by decreasing hormone-sensitive lipase activity. The latter may be one of insulin's strongest actions because it occurs at very low insulin levels and effectively lowers the levels of free fatty acids in the circulation thereby decreasing there utilization as fuel. - p396
03-02-2008, 10:06 PM
03-02-2008, 10:43 PM
The use of fiber probably has no effect on glucose triggered by ephedrine or large amounts of caffeine but it will if used w/ food that triggers glucose rise.
Again from the textbook Biochemical and Physiological Aspects of Human Nutrition, Stipanuk et al. ed. 2000
Soluable viscous polysaccharides [certain fibers] can delay and even interfere with the absorption of nutrients...
Positive benefits of delayed nutrient absorption include an improvement of glucose tolerance and a lowering of serum cholesterol levels. Delayed absorption of carbohydrates results in a lower postprandial (following a meal) glucose level. In general the more viscous the fiber the greater the effect on blood glucose. This is similiar to the effect seen with eating several small meals rather than one large meal. When glucose is absorbed in small amounts over an extended period, such as seen with viscous fibers, the insulin response is attenuated (Pick, et al. (1996) Oat bran concentrate bread products improve long term control of diabetes: A pilot study J. Am Diet Assoc 96:1254-1261)
Viscosity of the polysaccharides and their ability to form gels in the stomach appear to slow gastric emptying. This in turn results in a more uniform presentation of the meal to the small intestine for absorption. [Poorly soluable fibers that do not form gels such as wheat and cellulose have little effect...unlike those that do which include guar gum, pectin, psyllium, oat bran.] - p146. 147
03-02-2008, 10:47 PM
03-03-2008, 09:37 AM
03-03-2008, 09:39 AM
I have found IGF-1 when NOT used in conjunction with other peptides like pegMGF usuefull for exactly what you mentioned above, as well as its connective tissue healing abilities. I notice also that my finger and toe nails grow noticeably faster even when on 10mcg EOD to E3D.....
for keeping blood glucose down to prevent fat gain I think I would respond better to 10mcg ED. the E3D seems to inconsistent for my body. to each his own
03-03-2008, 09:52 AM
03-03-2008, 10:42 AM
03-03-2008, 09:37 PM
...here we are a couple years later and practical experience by a LOT of users (mostly off this board) has proved you correct on that point.
Now those users more in tune w/ their bodies have come to realize that IGF-1 LR3 isn't really DIRECTLY responsible for overall muscle growth...so once again you were way ahead of the curve on that one.
A few years ago the only trainers saying use small amounts (if at all) were Muscle trainee and Dave Palumbo...
Lake, have you ever used the nonLR3 IGF-1 (IGF-1 RH)? Maybe pinned that one 3 times a day and then compared it to the LR3 version...
I was wondering if the IGF-1 RH might prove to be better...I have seen a few claim so.
03-03-2008, 10:13 PM
Well as nerdy as I was and as much damn research as I did on that damn compound I would have hoped I was somewhat right lol. I literally studied that stuff all day, it absolutely intrigued me at the time. Dave palumbo was saying it but there was something about his dosing that was insane and I forgot what it was.
I had definitely told people that PEG-MGF was going to go systemic, the stuff was just too damn stable. I mean that isn't a bad thing by any means, but with that half life you have to expect it to go systemic. There is a reason why regular MGF's half life is so short, it only needs to act on the cells right next to where it is secreted pretty much, it has no reason to last long in the body.
As for the RH IGF-1 I have never used it. The stuff is so expensive that it is far too hard to just buy some up and test it out ya know.
03-03-2008, 10:53 PM
Yea I have used LR3 for a while, using different protocols. Any time I used it I got the following result: increase in appetite that eventually normalizes, smoother PCT recovery, Significant impact on connective tissue repair (I had a few tendon issues) and that is about it. I agree that LR3 is not responsible to site specific growth, and I am not so sure that using it the way we have been causes any muscle growth.
03-06-2008, 04:42 PM
I have heard conflicting things. I have heard that ECA can increase BG concentrations and YET people say avoid using insulin when using Ephedrine.......this doesnt make sense to me. what if using slin ONLY PWO? I mean.. if insulin shuttles glucose OUT of the bloodstream and ECA increases blood glucose concentrations than if anything it could only help...?
03-06-2008, 06:43 PM
03-06-2008, 07:11 PM
The body wants to maintain a stable BG level of around 90 ng/dL. Anything above that is deemed excess energy and triggers a storage response of insulin until it returns to 90. Below that level (caused by activity), down to about 72, there is insufficient circulating energy and glucagon is released to catabolize stored energy. Below that is considered critical and the body then releases epinephrine (adrenaline) to quickly release stored energy to get levels back to normal.
Ephedrine produces adrenaline-like effects. Dosing insulin at the same time basically tells your body to do two opposing things at once.
03-06-2008, 07:35 PM
03-06-2008, 11:29 PM
If you're taking your ephedrine before your workout, the increased activity will probably use up any above baseline BG anyhow.
Also taking a small dose of insulin (even say 1 iu of Humalog) can be too much for a non-diabetic. Say you measure your BG and it is slightly high, you have no idea how much natural insulin your own body is currently putting out - remember your body wants to get back to baseline and has its own ability to get there. Say your body is already producing 1 iu and you just add another. Now you've taken too much, your BG will now drop below baseline and now your body has to go catabolic to adjust back the other way. Worst case scenario is that you way overcompensate and without dietary carbohydrate to offset, BG tanks to a disastrous level because while your body can turn off its own 'bolus' insulin when levels tank but it can't change that which you inject.
Personally I don't think that the benefits of recreational insulin use outweight the costs/risks. I think those who are on large AAS doses and competing can justify it since they are already sacrificing their health for their careers. However I do think that it is a very poor idea for a non-diabetic to try and manage his or her BG levels by using insulin. You just have no way of telling how much your body is already producing.
If you are going to use it then make sure you take it with an appropriate amount of food (carbs) but that is different from BG control. I know I sound like a broken record but I can't overemphasize the complexities and risks involved.
Last edited by Nitrox; 03-06-2008 at 11:47 PM.
03-07-2008, 12:10 AM
yea I agree with everything you said...but I am not new to insulin use. I have used it with AAS before as well.
I dont think that the natural secretion of insulin PWO is necessarily important to calculate. What I meant was using 2 or so IU WITH an overcompensated amount of carbohydrates. did you assume I meant keeping carbs the same and then adding extra slin? I would agree that is of no use and probably dangerous.
I conclude (for myself at least) that it is probably best used with AAS...and anytime thereafter is not really going to produce the type of muscle growth benefits that would outweigh the risks of use.
03-19-2008, 07:31 AM
good to know, didnt know EC raises glucose ,been tryin to get into ketosis [bodyopus]and having a very hard time .Bought a meter and the lowest I got was 70.Looked into METFORMIN but you cant get without a script[suspect Im boarderline" D" [runs in family] While I searching ,came across GALEGA OFFICINALIS supposed to be what METFORMIN is made from ,anyone ever use?
03-19-2008, 08:33 AM
03-19-2008, 09:34 AM
I was thinking of this the other day. Which has promt my interest to by a blood glucose meter even more. I'm def going to pick one up and not only test this but a few things (BCAA at different doseing, etc....)
Wont be until Mid-May but I'll def do it and make a big thread.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
03-19-2008, 10:41 AM
Say your blood glucose concentration has gone up by an amount X that requires Y iu of insulin to bring back to baseline. If you then take Y iu but also eat an amount of carbs to match then you would end up at X (from ECA) + X (from carbs) - X (from Y insulin) = X back where you started. With insulin and blood glucose it is simply additive and subtractive. The fact that you have elevated insulin in you system does not mean that it will regulate BG to normal, it has to be balanced.
Of course if you are not diabetic, your body's own insulin will work that X back to zero at its own pace once the ECA leaves your system.
03-19-2008, 10:44 AM
03-19-2008, 07:32 PM
03-19-2008, 07:37 PM
03-19-2008, 07:55 PM
Why'd Pud'z get banned?
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
03-19-2008, 07:57 PM
quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia
Research in healthy adults shows that mental efficiency declines slightly but measurably as blood glucose falls below 65 mg/dL (3.6 mM) in many people. Hormonal defense mechanisms (adrenaline and glucagon) are activated as it drops below a threshold level (about 55 mg/dL for most people), producing the typical symptoms of shakiness and dysphoria. On the other hand, obvious impairment does not often occur until the glucose falls below 40 mg/dL, and up to 10% of the population may occasionally have glucose levels below 65 in the morning without apparent effects. Brain effects of hypoglycemia, termed neuroglycopenia, determine whether a given low glucose is a "problem" for that person, and hence some people tend to use the term hypoglycemia only when a moderately low glucose is accompanied by symptoms.
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