What's better post workout?

SweetLou32937

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What do u guys think is better while on a cut for post workout?
1 quart Skim Milk or 30g Whey PP w/ 2 cups Oats
(other suggestions welcomed)
 
Nitrox

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1 quart of skim milk is worth about 330 kcals
30g whey + 2 cups dried oats is worth about 725 kcals

Which one gives you an appropriate calorie deficit?
 

SweetLou32937

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1 quart of skim milk is worth about 330 kcals
30g whey + 2 cups dried oats is worth about 725 kcals

Which one gives you an appropriate calorie deficit?
opps, i ment 1 cup oats, by the way i would change my diet a lil to meet my deficit. the reason im asking is because i know low gi carbs are the carbs of choice to go with when cutting, oats w/ about a 52 gi and skim milk at about 32 gi. Also i read milk is very insulinogenic w/ 6g dex per cup, would that make it a better choice?
 
beebab

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the only negative i see for tanking milk directly PWO is the blend of different protein forms rather than straight whey. generally speaking, after a workout would be when youd seek fast acting protein in your system like whey, as opposed to slow digesting caseins which would be more optimal closer to bed or otherwise during the day. in this regard, straight whey isolate PWO is the most efficient protein source. i'd say go whey and oats if it doesn't get you bloated.
 

SweetLou32937

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the only negative i see for tanking milk directly PWO is the blend of different protein forms rather than straight whey. generally speaking, after a workout would be when youd seek fast acting protein in your system like whey, as opposed to slow digesting caseins which would be more optimal closer to bed or otherwise during the day. in this regard, straight whey isolate PWO is the most efficient protein source. i'd say go whey and oats if it doesn't get you bloated.
yeah, ur right. what if i mixed the oats with a banana? or if i used whey isolate/milk/oats? would the gi of banana's be a problem? and what if the ratio of whey to casien was 50:50 in the whey/milk shake?
 
Nitrox

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I think that you are trying to split hairs. As long as you are eating regular meals throughout the day I seriously doubt that your body will care whether it gets whey or casein. The most important part is that you get some carbs and protein that make up your necessary calories. Make something that you like; milk + oats + banana + whey sounds good to me.
 

pudzian2

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I think that you are trying to split hairs. As long as you are eating regular meals throughout the day I seriously doubt that your body will care whether it gets whey or casein. The most important part is that you get some carbs and protein that make up your necessary calories. Make something that you like; milk + oats + banana + whey sounds good to me.
agreed. The some of the leanest natural guys have told me that all these little picky details aren't as important as what you have to say for yourself (nutritionally speaking) for the entire day.
 

SweetLou32937

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I think that you are trying to split hairs. As long as you are eating regular meals throughout the day I seriously doubt that your body will care whether it gets whey or casein. The most important part is that you get some carbs and protein that make up your necessary calories. Make something that you like; milk + oats + banana + whey sounds good to me.
point taken, thx for the replies ill just forget all the specifics and run WPI/Oats/Banana post.
 
Sporto

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agreed. The some of the leanest natural guys have told me that all these little picky details aren't as important as what you have to say for yourself (nutritionally speaking) for the entire day.
Bingo!

Sporto
 
Steveoph

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I agree about the not splitting hairs. I like a frozen banana+whey and then milk or oats depending on my mood. Just blend it all up and take it right after you workout and your body will sort it all out :)
 

SweetLou32937

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base diet

This is my base diet right now with one carb load day a week (more oats and fruit w/ some yogurt).



8:00
4 oz Chicken 99% Fat Free
5 Egg Whites Large
3/4 Cup Oats
5oz Apple
2 cups Brocolli

11:00
4oz Chicken 99% Fat Free
1 cup Romaine Lettuce
1 tbsp Natural Peanut Butter
8oz Skim Milk

1:30
4oz Chicken
1 11oz Muscle Milk
(I'm a student and squeez this in between classes)

4:00 Pre-Workout
16oz Sugar Free Rockstar (only for the taste really)
1 Can Tuna Light
1oz Chicken 99% Fat Free
2 cups Brocolli
2 slices Whole Wheat Bread
120g Starwberries

6:45 Post-Workout
45g Whey Protein
3oz Banana
1/2 cup Oats

8:00-8:15
8oz Salmon (200cals/40g Protein/0g Carbs/5g Fat)
1 cup Green Beans
2 Cups Romaine Lettuce
2 Slices Whole Wheat Bread
1/2 tbsp Olive Oil

Total Macros:2,572/264.5/227/60.25 (in Cal/Pro/Carb/Fat order)
the protein count doesnt include protein from veggies.
 

pudzian2

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I just think the best thing to do is prioritize. Eating the same thing day in and day out will result in diminishing returns like anything else. Not to say that it looses nutritional value. but like sporto says, other factors such as daily activities, mood and satiety are important to compensate for. Structure is good, satisfy your caloric and macro requirements for the day, but don't stress out about each meal. Its good to throw something different in there once in a while. It keeps your metabolism guessing, pleases your mind, and will benefit you more than worrying about following any specific diet to the Tee each day. Each day you do different things. therefore your nutritional requirements will change on a daily basis. Learn your body and you will know what it needs at any given time.
 

SweetLou32937

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I just think the best thing to do is prioritize. Eating the same thing day in and day out will result in diminishing returns like anything else. Not to say that it looses nutritional value. but like sporto says, other factors such as daily activities, mood and satiety are important to compensate for. Structure is good, satisfy your caloric and macro requirements for the day, but don't stress out about each meal. Its good to throw something different in there once in a while. It keeps your metabolism guessing, pleases your mind, and will benefit you more than worrying about following any specific diet to the Tee each day. Each day you do different things. therefore your nutritional requirements will change on a daily basis. Learn your body and you will know what it needs at any given time.
i understand what u mean. i try to keep the same for about for days of the week. but good point i like ur idea
 
Sporto

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haha yea i was actually referring to you!..damn man. Ur physique is sick@!
Thanks! It's just a matter of applying the basics over a long period of time :)

Sporto
 

pudzian2

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Thanks! It's just a matter of applying the basics over a long period of time :)

Sporto
I suppose time is the thing that slips peoples minds. Rome wasn't built in a day..... I do however relate to those that wish to speed up and surpass a natural limitation. But even with things like anabolics etc, time is still the biggest factor in success.
 

SweetLou32937

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??????

hey i got a question, i have some bulk BCAA's and L-Glutamine and was wondering do u count each gram of amino acids as 1 gram of protein and worth 4 cals? and do u add that to your totals for that day?
 
Nitrox

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hey i got a question, i have some bulk BCAA's and L-Glutamine and was wondering do u count each gram of amino acids as 1 gram of protein and worth 4 cals? and do u add that to your totals for that day?
I would count the BCAA's towards your calorie totals. FWIW glutamine is largely worthless as a supplement and not cheap to boot.
 

SweetLou32937

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I would count the BCAA's towards your calorie totals. FWIW glutamine is largely worthless as a supplement and not cheap to boot.
i know, glutamine is worthless, only got like 10 days left of it and figured i would use it up. by the way u would count AAKG, Beta-alanine, taurine, and leucine as protein and cals too, right?
 

pudzian2

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I would count the BCAA's towards your calorie totals. FWIW glutamine is largely worthless as a supplement and not cheap to boot.
can you explain why glutamine is worthless. If you can convince me, I'd gladly stop buying it.... it is quite expensive
 
Nitrox

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can you explain why glutamine is worthless. If you can convince me, I'd gladly stop buying it.... it is quite expensive
Umm.. yeah I'm sure.

It doesn't matter if its peptide form either, the gut destroys almost 80-90% of it.

Amino acids don't need time to "kick in".


Here is one with high dose:

The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.

Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.


The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.

van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.



Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.


Effect of glutamine and protein supplementation on exercise-induced decreases in salivary IgA.

Krzywkowski K, Petersen EW, Ostrowski K, Link-Amster H, Boza J, Halkjaer-Kristensen J, Pedersen BK.

The Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Rigshospitalet, 2200 Copenhagen, Denmark.

Postexercise immune impairment has been linked to exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration. This study examined the possibility of abolishing the exercise-induced decrease in salivary IgA through glutamine supplementation during and after intense exercise. Eleven athletes performed cycle ergometer exercise for 2 h at 75% of maximal oxygen uptake on 3 separate days. Glutamine (a total of 17.5 g), protein (a total of 68.5 g/6.2 g protein-bound glutamine), and placebo supplements were given during and up to 2 h after exercise. Unstimulated, timed saliva samples were obtained before exercise and 20 min, 140 min, 4 h, and 22 h postexercise. The exercise protocol induced a decrease in salivary IgA (IgA concentration, IgA output, and IgA relative to total protein). The plasma concentration of glutamine was decreased by 15% 2 h postexercise in the placebo group, whereas this decline was abolished by both glutamine and protein supplements.None of the supplements, however, was able to abolish the decline in salivary IgA. This study does not support that postexercise decrease in salivary IgA is related to plasma glutamine concentrations.




Should I Spend my Hard-Earned Money on Glutamine or Hookers?

.... A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 � 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine.

� While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it�s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin� on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it�s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it�s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it�s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin� on real, clinical stress. It�s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.

� The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.

� The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function.

� And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate.

The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle.

What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments.

� And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS)...
Some good quotes from Bobo.

Last week I even saw a blurb on the news about Glutamine being a bogus supp but since I already shared that opinion I didnt pay attention to the source. Of course when I google it all I get are sites quoting how useful it is. Coincidentally they all sell it too. :think:
 

pudzian2

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Some good quotes from Bobo.

Last week I even saw a blurb on the news about Glutamine being a bogus supp but since I already shared that opinion I didnt pay attention to the source. Of course when I google it all I get are sites quoting how useful it is. Coincidentally they all sell it too. :think:
I was going to stop buying it anyway. The thing with me like most people, is if i can be convinced it will do more harm then good, I will try it. What I am beginning to realize is that when I stop taking something or run out of it, it makes no difference. Therefore I'll save myself the money. Thanks for that research man.
 

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