SOY Protein... Helpful or Harmful???

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    Reaper:

    What's this CASEIN protein I see on Optimum Nutrition's website?
    What is a decent price that you normally pay, I see $30 for 2 lbs (of egg)...

    I gotta roll guys... Reaper, good talking to you bud...
    Xodus, sorry man...I get a little edgy afte a while. No hard feelings, I gotta roll...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDrive View Post
    Reaper:

    What's this CASEIN protein I see on Optimum Nutrition's website?
    What is a decent price that you normally pay, I see $30 for 2 lbs (of egg)...

    I gotta roll guys... Reaper, good talking to you bud...
    Xodus, sorry man...I get a little edgy afte a while. No hard feelings, I gotta roll...
    No worries.


    Check trueprotein.com Egg White Protein is $10.79/lb and Whole Egg Protein is $9.99/lb


    Casein is good whey! It digests slowly, so its not a great PWO shake, but it is very good for your Pre-Bed Shake. Casein is what is in Cottage Cheese (curds & whey) The curds are the casein protein.

    X
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Personally I don't like the idea of pulsing. When you are being supressed by an outside compound your suppressed. I feel that compounds should just be ran all the way through so you get the full effect. Pulsing sounds like a good idea and I'm not bashing it, but I don't think the compound when it was manufactured by the company made it to be pulsed. At the same time Halodrol is such a mild compound I don't think there is much to benefit from a pulse.

    At any rate, that is just my personal opinion.
    reaper have you ever ran an oral compound before?

    but pulsing is a rather good idea to lesson the side effects yet make the cycle still worth while. however i would still make sure i had more SERM available. as far as your whey goes, have u tried lactose free whey isolate? i have the same problem and sh!t a storm when i use regular whey but whey isolate has fixed the problem.
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    schmidt-

    I tried generic superdrol once last year Jan '06. I did it for 4 days and threw away the bottle. At the time I was still fairly new into bodybuilding and I was not sure what the compound was. It was given to me by a friend and the side effects from it were very harsh....yes I started running it immediately at 30mg....stupid i know..like I said last I was still fairly new into bodybuilding and I was not sure exactly what it was. I'm glad I tossed it and I'm not doing orals/ps/ph/gear ever again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    schmidt-

    I tried generic superdrol once last year Jan '06. I did it for 4 days and threw away the bottle. At the time I was still fairly new into bodybuilding and I was not sure what the compound was. It was given to me by a friend and the side effects from it were very harsh....yes I started running it immediately at 30mg....stupid i know..like I said last I was still fairly new into bodybuilding and I was not sure exactly what it was. I'm glad I tossed it and I'm not doing orals/ps/ph/gear ever again.
    stupid, yes
    but it happens. my only wonder was where your knowledge was coming from cuz i was under the impression you have never used. so i was curious. superdrol if you get the original is really not all that harsh it is like most steroids hard on the lipid profiles, but that is expected. other than that most sides i have ever noted was aggression. bloodwork always clean. pulsing tho, is a very good idea with anything doctors pulse patients all the time so no harm is done other than reducing sides.
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    I would take a hefty dose of Nolva with that Soy shake...jk, but that's how dangerous I think soy is.
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    Similar 'Soy' Thread here:

    Fake meats good or bad?
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    I technically ingested a total of 120mg those 4 days of a superdrol clone before I stopped. It made me really sick around the 3rd day, but I decided to just try it a 4th till I got sick again. I didn't know the original was different than the clones. I was under the impression that it was exactly the same thing as AX put out. anyways, since then I've had 2 work annual physicals with bloodwork that came out alright so my assumption was that it was one of those 'live and learn' type deals. At any rate, if people want to use that kind of stuff that is a personal decision, but I'm not willing to play that game so that's my take on it.
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    Ahhh...I see, no Casein for me then. I'm gonna get myself some Egg protein. From what I gather in all of this conversation, it's hard to say if soy is actually evil or not... Do I want to gamble with it anymore...? Definitely not.

    Yes I have tried the "Lactose Free" "Whey Isolate"... Gut rot... for me at least. I'm not really sure why if it actually is lactose free like they say.

    I'm still pretty unsure whether I want to take it ED or pulse it...
    If I pulse it, I may not even need PCT but I'll have the 30 tabs/10mg Nolvadex anyway. If I take it ED I'll need more Nolvadex. Still hard to say. I've got about a month before I go on cycle. Like I mentioned before, I'll keep a log and let everyone know whats going on...
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    Vyotech makes a product called Oryx Goat Whey. It's supposed to be good for those of you who are not lactose tolerant. I'm on my 2nd jug and I am quite pleased with it. I am not lactose intolerant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    I technically ingested a total of 120mg those 4 days of a superdrol clone before I stopped. It made me really sick around the 3rd day, but I decided to just try it a 4th till I got sick again. I didn't know the original was different than the clones. I was under the impression that it was exactly the same thing as AX put out. anyways, since then I've had 2 work annual physicals with bloodwork that came out alright so my assumption was that it was one of those 'live and learn' type deals. At any rate, if people want to use that kind of stuff that is a personal decision, but I'm not willing to play that game so that's my take on it.
    claiming to be the same thing and being the same thing are not the same thing. i only used superdrol clones that dr. d himself approved of and that isnt many. when using a clone of a product you are more likely to get sides many of them are not all that pure
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    Hey Drive,

    Go to bodybuilding.com/store/egg.html and you can make other choices for protien from powdered egg whites. Best of luck and Thank you for what you are doing for our FREEDOM!
    Last edited by GolFNUTT; 08-13-2007 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Forgot to add powdered in fron of egg whites
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigschmidt821 View Post
    claiming to be the same thing and being the same thing are not the same thing. i only used superdrol clones that dr. d himself approved of and that isnt many. when using a clone of a product you are more likely to get sides many of them are not all that pure
    any info on what those few and farbetween clones were?
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    i replaced regular milk with soy milk in my diet.. doing so allowed me to drop bodyfat quite a bit faster and I look a lot better since. I'm not sure what the research says..but soy works well for me. I like to have a mixture of proteins in my diet.
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    I would go with egg protein. It a little more expensive than whey (believe it or not) but eggs are about as close as you are going to get to the bioavailablity of whey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwing7 View Post
    any info on what those few and farbetween clones were?
    genetic edge labs but they are a european company
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    I would go with egg protein. It a little more expensive than whey (believe it or not) but eggs are about as close as you are going to get to the bioavailablity of whey.
    When I can clear some room in my fridge, I will be going with Liquid Egg Whites:

    http://www.eggwhitesint.com/


    Apparently they are much more bio-available than powdered eggs.


    X
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    When I can clear some room in my fridge, I will be going with Liquid Egg Whites:

    http://www.eggwhitesint.com/


    Apparently they are much more bio-available than powdered eggs.


    X
    That would be a lot easier than the method that I use which is crack the egg and scoop out the yolk and to that about two dozen times per day!
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    so is it cheaper to but a few galons of egg whites or buy a few cases of eggs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwing7 View Post
    so is it cheaper to but a few galons of egg whites or buy a few cases of eggs?

    There are 14 dozen eggs per gallon @ ~$35/gal (when you buy 2).

    The thing I like is that it doesn't take up the room that 14 dozen eggs do, they stay good for up to 6-8 months, they are pasteurized, easy, convenient, and can be frozen indefinitely if needed.

    Not something you can say about 'real' eggs.

    I'm not sure what eggs go for at Costco or other bulk places, I think my local safeway is ~$2/dozen (not including buy one, get one) but for the extra few dollars and not having to separate and toss half an egg out, its worth it to be able to just pump it.

    X
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwing7 View Post
    so is it cheaper to but a few galons of egg whites or buy a few cases of eggs?
    I am in the military so I shop at the on base commissary and 1 dozen jumbo eggs are $1.00. But man, do they take up a lot of room. I think I am going to use the link above and get some of the liquid kind.
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    Just saw this thread but would like to say that Soy definitely promotes aromitization...which is a bad thing. Egg protein is a good alternative and has a great amino profile.
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    C'mon gents....I have to make the same post twice in the same thread. Read the scientific literature!!!

    Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones
    Douglas Kalman , Samantha Feldman , Michele Martinez , Diane R Krieger and Mark J Tallon

    Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2007

    Published 23 July 2007

    Background

    Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.

    Methods

    For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.

    Results

    Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 1.1 and 0.9 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+ 16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (- 9.1 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).

    Conclusions
    This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
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    Thanks 'DieTrying', I appreciate the research data.

    I have stopped drinking the Soy shakes for about 10 days now. I think it may indeed have just been "all in my head" but I swear my muscles felt softer after a couple weeks of Soy protein shakes.

    The only other thing I wanted to mention about that study is "...20 subjects were supplemented with 50 gr. per day..." IMO, 50 gr. per day isn't SH*T... How many of us strive for 200 gr. of protein a day? Given, most of us get some protein from other food sources, but I'd be willing to bet many people reading this consume 150 gr. of protein from shakes daily when bulking.

    I have taken into consideration that the study lasted 12 weeks, so I would have thought with that amount of time you'd see a difference in hormone levels.

    I probably am just paranoid... I'm not going to get rid of it yet. I'm sure I'll eventually begin taking it again, and this time I'll make a conscious effort to see how I feel and if I notice any differences in muscle tone, size and/or decrease in performance in the gym. I appreciate all the input from everyone!!! You guys rock!
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    Here is another studay and this one says that soy protein acts like a SERM!

    Submitted to: Meeting Proceedings
    Publication Type: Abstract
    Publication Acceptance Date: March 1, 2006
    Publication Date: April 1, 2006
    Citation: Ronis, M.J., Gilchrist, J.M., Nagarajan, S., Simmen, F.A., Simmen, R.C., Badger, T.M. 2006. Developmental exposure to soy protein isolate: Potential health effects [abstract]. International Life Sciences Institute Food, Nutrition, and Safety Program. Available: http://www.ilsina.org/programs/food_...promotion.html.

    Interpretive Summary: Recently, concerns have been raised about the safety of soy-based baby formula. Soy formulas make up about 25% of the U.S. market and are fed to over 1 million babies each year. Soy protein isolate (SPI) is the sole protein source in these formulas and is made by processing and extracting soy beans. Arguments about health effects have centered around plant chemicals called isoflavones that are naturally found in soy and are structurally related to the female sex hormone estradiol. The major soy isoflavones are called genistein and daidzein, and they weakly bind to estrogen and androgen receptors in the test tube. However, most of the studies have used cells exposed to pure chemicals, or experimental animals injected with genistein or daidzein, and ignore many issues related to feeding soy protein isolate to babies. In particular, the chemical form of isoflavones is different in SPI. In SPI the isoflavones exist as sugar conjugates that have to be digested by gut bacteria before genistein or daidzein can be absorbed into the body. In addition, during absorption these chemicals are re-conjugated to sugars and sulfate. As a result, the tissue levels of isoflavones are 10-fold lower after dietary consumption of SPI, compared to injecting the pure chemicals i.v. In addition, effects of mixtures are often very different from those of pure components and experimental animals including monkeys break down isoflavones significantly differently from babies. We have observed no harmful effects of feeding SPI to rats throughout development including no effects on fertility, reproductive development, or endocrine disruption. The only potentially important health effect we have observed is increases of liver enzymes (CYP3A) that may speed up the break down of some pediatric drugs. In contrast to toxic effects, we have observed health benefical anti-cancer effects and reduced body fat in SPI-fed rats and soy formula fed infants associated with increased fat breakdown.
    Technical Abstract: Soy protein isolate (SPI) is the sole protein source in soy infant formulas, which constitute approximately 25% of all formula sold in America. No reports of significant health problems associated with soy formula feeding have appeared in the more than 20 million infants fed soy formulas since they came on the market. However, health concerns have been raised as the result of the presence of some plant-derived chemicals (the phytochemicals called isoflavones) found in SPI. The major isoflavones in SPI are genistein and daidzein. These compounds and the daidzein metabolite equol, which is made by gut bacteria during the digestion of soy products, are structurally similar to the female hormone 17 beta-estradiol and have been called phytoestrogens. They have been shown to have weak binding to estrogen receptors with activity similar to selective estrogen-receptor modulators (SERMS) such as the breast cancer drug tamoxifen. They have been shown to stimulate or inhibit estrogen signaling depending on dose, levels of endogenous estrogens, and relative expression of estrogen receptor alpha or beta in the target cells. In some studies, isoflavones also appear to have anti-androgenic activities such as the ability to reduce testosterone concentrations. There is controversy regarding possible safety issues associated with soy formula consumption based on early exposure to high concentrations of these isoflavones (4-7 mg/kg/d), and as a result, several governments have issued restrictions against soy-based formulas. The toxicity issues raised relate to possible endocrine disruption, including effects on fertility, increased cancer risk, and immune dysfunction. Safety fears have been based largely on studies in which pure isoflavones have been administered to laboratory animals at high doses, often by routes other than the diet: in vitro cell culture studies and animal studies in which SPI has been administered following castration to remove normal sex steroids. These studies have largely ignored important dose-response issues, the role of metabolism by gut microflora and metabolism during first pass intestinal absorption, species differences in isoflavone metabolism, the complexity of SPI which contains many different phytochemicals and bioactive peptides or proteins, and interactions between isoflavones and normal steroids. In studies in our laboratory, feeding diets containing SPI as the sole protein source to Sprague Dawley rats results in no significant effects on fertility, reproductive or endocrine development relative to rats fed casein-based diets. We have observed no changes in weight of testis, ovary or secondary sex organs, and no changes in normal sex hormone concentrations during development. The only potential safety issue we have observed is increased expression of CYP3A enzymes in the livers of rats fed SPI compared to casein which might be associated with faster breakdown of some pediatric medications. In contrast, we have observed protection against chemically induced breast and colon cancer in rats fed SPI. Breast cancer protection was associated with significant increases in mammary gland differentiation and impaired signaling through a transcription factor in SPI-fed rats called the Ah receptor which normally stimulates metabolic activation of chemical pro-carcinogens. In addition we have seen increased cell death in breast tumor cells exposed to serum from SPI-fed rats in the test tube. These data are consistent with population studies indicating that soy consumption is cancer protective. In addition, we have data from animal models and soy-fed infants showing reduced body fat and protection against development of coronary artery disease in apoE knockout mice models. We have also demonstrated reduced fatty liver, and cholesterol content associated with activation of a number of liver nuclear receptors incl
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    And what of all this?

    ============================== ================
    Soy Dangers Summarised
    SOY DANGERS:

    High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.


    Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.


    Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.


    Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.


    Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.


    Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.


    Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.


    Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.


    Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.


    Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

    SOY INFANT FORMULA — BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR BABIES

    Babies fed soy-based formula have 13,000 to 22,000 times more estrogen compounds in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula.


    Infants exclusively fed soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.


    Male infants undergo a “testosterone surge” during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, baby boys are programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of their sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behavior.


    Pediatricians are noticing greater numbers of boys whose physical maturation is delayed, or does not occur at all, including lack of development of the sexual organs. Learning disabilities, especially in male children, have reached epidemic proportions.


    Soy infant feeding—which floods the bloodstream with female hormones that inhibit testosterone—cannot be ignored as a possible cause for these tragic developments. In animals, soy feeding indicates that phytoestrogens in soy are powerful endocrine disrupters.


    Almost 15 percent of white girls and 50 percent of African-American girls show signs of puberty such as breast development and pubic hair, before the age of eight. Some girls are showing sexual development before the age of three. Premature development of girls has been linked to the use of soy formula and exposure to environmental estrogens such as PCBs and DDE.
  

  
 

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