Waxy Maize Starch Craze

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    Waxy Maize Starch Craze


    I've been reading up on Waxy Maize Starch. Can anybody tell me what the difference is between WMS and regular Cornstarch? Maize seems to be a type of corn thats ah.......Waxy. Can't we just take in Cornstarch Pre and Post workout? Here's the Nutritional Profile.
    Calories in Cornstarch

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    I think waxy maze is made by enzymatically digestion of cornstarch to shorter polysacharide (but not as short as maltodextrine) than what is naturally found in plain cornstarch.
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    Anybody have any ideas on this? I'm not spending 7 bucks for a lb of starch.
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    Im a huge fan of this. My muscles feel more full when I take it. It also gives me zero stomach bloat. I keep talking about experimenting with it as my only carb source, but I havent got around to it yet. Hopefully soon though

    Jason
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    I am going to source this stuff. I haven't been able to yet but I will. No bloat, aw man I love it.
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    Thumbs up


    It's all I use anymore mach. I can't take the bloat with having to take in 3 shakes. I do 40g during my workout, 40 more with my BCAA, glutamine and CEE and then another 40 with my whey 20 mins after that. Before I even started playing on the darkside, I added about 5 lbs of muscle in 10 weeks. I LOVE the fullness of my muscles as well. I will warn you, the bulk stuff tastes like wallpaper paste, sweet wallpaper paste, I mix mine with orange Vitargo.
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    I've found that they bake and make sauces with this stuff. I got an email back from one company saying that they didn't trade it whatever that means. There is a place in the UK that has it for 3 dollars and change a lb, but it looks like they don't ship to the US. I know TP has it, I just want cheaper. I can't imagine this stuff with superdrol.

    Edit:I just contacted a company this morning. It looks like they sell by the pallet(750kg). I inquired about pricing for laughs.

    Ok, Now when did you get a chance to taste wallpaper paste? Oh wait, you're a Ranger.That explains alot, nevermind. When I was a lifeguard, we had a guy that basically lived in the pines near the beach. Just about everyday he would come down with full gear and proceed to go swimming with full gear, maybe a mile or so. Somebody told me he would kill dear in the woods with his knife.

    I'm glad you guys are on our side. Keep up the hard work never discussed in the news.
    Last edited by Mach .78; 12-20-2006 at 08:51 AM.
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    Question


    Did you get a price on the 750 kg package ?

    Ye, I used to do a 5 mile open ocean swim each morning as well when I transfered into the USCG. People always asked me about sharks. There was never one around me as I had a pod of dolphins that swam with me from Coquina light to the Oregon Inlet.
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    Dolphins were my friends as well on the beach. Many dead sharks showed up because of them.

    I just sent an email back to the company I contacted this morning. They seem like they may be helpful. I asked for a price and minimum volume. She wrote back saying they sell typically by the pallet but asked what my need was. I said 20 lbs but that maybe that I could sell the rest to a company here. We'll see what she says. I just wrote her back asking for the pallet price.



    Edited: Ok first she shot me down saying that they did not sell to individuals and dealt with just the industrial sector.

    I asked for the pallet price in another email and she says....


    I leave for holiday until 1/3/06. Kindly advise of your complete contact information, and company name and we will further advise in the new year.
    Thank you.

    Best regards,
    Camille


    What should I do? Make up a company name?
    Last edited by Mach .78; 12-20-2006 at 06:12 PM.
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    say you work at an independantly owned GNC or natural health foods store! lol i dont know
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    WMS has a higher molecular weight than other starch derivatives. It is able to bypass the stomach for the most part. It also replenishes glycogen stores much faster than maltodextrin and dextrose. It also prevents bloating caused by maltodextrin and dextrose.
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    (sigh)
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    Ok, I'm intrigued. What's on your mind B?
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    That people are still concerned with speed when its almost irrelevant if you simply eat correctly.
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    Not to mention the majority of absortion is done in the small intestine, not the stomach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Not to mention the majority of absortion is done in the small intestine, not the stomach.
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.

    So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.
    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.



    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.
    What Bobo means is that WMS' increased rate of absorption in the gastric uptake phase is completely irrelevant because if your diet is competent glycolytic stores should not be an issue, ever.
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    I would be interested in seeing some testing with AP and WMS, personally.

    Yes, glucogen stores should not be a problem with most people, but having used vitargo myself the reports of increased muscle fullness are valid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.



    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.
    The only thing that occurs to starches in the stomach is salivary enzymes are deactivated. In other words, it moves through the stomach extremely fast regardless.

    The majority of absortion is done within the sotmach and the same question that it seems nobody wants to ask is even if it absorbs extrmeely fast, where does it go? Glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting when large amounts are digested.


    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


    I'm just waiting for the day someone starts to sell bulk glucose powder. Why not just eliminate all the steps and cram it in as fast as we can....

    ...because the body has a way of regulating what goes where and how much is needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade
    I would be interested in seeing some testing with AP and WMS, personally.

    Yes, glucogen stores should not be a problem with most people, but having used vitargo myself the reports of increased muscle fullness are valid.
    Of course you are increasing fullness....you are filling glycogen stores...nothing magical about that.

    Was Maltodextrin that much more effective the Dextrose? Nope. The same arguement applies here.


    EDIT: I figured you meant glycogen, not glucagon
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    So let me get this straight. WMS and other heavy molecules will move through the stomach faster, but would be used to replenish glycogen stores at the same rate as a lighter molecule like dextrose because glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting.


    Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.

    Piehl Aulin K, Soderlund K, Hultman E.

    Department of Medical Sciences, University of Uppsala/LIVI, S-791 88 Falun, Sweden.

    The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (SD 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (SD 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.

    Entrez PubMed
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    So let me get this straight. WMS and other heavy molecules will move through the stomach faster, but would be used to replenish glycogen stores at the same rate as a lighter molecule like dextrose because glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting.
    You are measuring 2h and 4h increments after depleting exercise, not short term recovery (30-60 minutes). The method used was to give a 300g total (liquid carbohydrates) over 30,60,90 and 120 minutes then measure the effects. You islolated one variable without even introducing others such as pre, during nutrition as well as the addition of a fast acting protein. Those lack of variables is expressed in this statement:

    "Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks."

    Now add a protein and measure it.

    You can't say WMS is superior by isolating its effects without taking into consideration real world variables such as glycogen levels before and during (which are not even close to be depleted) and the addition of a protein as well which will have more of an effect on recovery than ANY carbohydrate drink.

    The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.


    EDIT: And I don't like this either. Rate limiting or not.....

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.
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    Alright thanks, I wasn't really trying to argue what you had said, I was just looking for some clarification. I'm going to keep my PWO nutrition as simple as possible from now on. Thanks again
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    I understand

    What it comes down too is that you are basically splitting hairs with something that really isn't that important. Post workout is about recovery yes, but protein synthesis is the aspect people should focus on, not how fast to refill glycogen stores.
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    While we are on the topic of protein, what do you know or think about Liquid Beef Aminos? Has anyone here tried it? I was reading "somewhere" about them and people seem to like it. Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mach .78
    While we are on the topic of protein, what do you know or think about Liquid Beef Aminos? Has anyone here tried it? I was reading "somewhere" about them and people seem to like it. Thoughts?
    I think you should start a new thread on that you will get more responses that way. Or are you just trying to get Bobo to talk while you have him here lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump
    I think you should start a new thread on that you will get more responses that way. Or are you just trying to get Bobo to talk while you have him here lol.
    Yea, pretty much . I will be trying them out here soon and post my results in a new thread.
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    Im curious where you get it at. I didnt run a search yet but you have pm.
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    I LOVE waxy maize. I used to use Dextrose and it always bloated me, made me fat, and 30-60 min later gave me a stomach ache. I switched to malto with better results. I then got cheap and did rice cakes or white rice or ww bread w/ honey. All bloat me and make me sick afterward.

    WMS goes down easy and it helped maintain my pumps. I would literally workout, get my pump, lose the pump, drink my wms and 30-60 min later get another pump. It actually increased my conditioning w/in an hour after drinking it.

    I used it for my carb up too my last competition and loved it. Right now I'm not using (price - white rice is just cheaper), but I'm thinking of using it 20-40 grams IMMEDIATE postworkout w/ bcaa's, glut, and cee then using my white rice w/ my whey 30-min later.

    A hint on making it taste good:

    Mix your wms w/ ver very little water to make like a custard. Add 1-2 packets of calorie free sweetener. Tastes AWESOME!
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    WMS differs from normal cornstarch in the content of amylopectin, look here for more info:
    Specialty Corns: Waxy, High-Amylose, High-Oil, and High-Lysine Corn, AGF-112-91
    It looks like the difference in composition isn't that big though. It sounds like the main reason for WMS is to try and get the biggest carb molecule that is still high GI (more amylopectin = higher GI), since post workout you are looking for an insulin spike.
    As far as absorption, I think any moderate to high GI food that you can tolerate, convenient, economical will work fine - not a big difference. WMS may be better tolerated by some (no personal experience), but it is kinda pricey. Lots of other options out there, just browse a GI table if you are unfamiliar ( The Glycemic Index has one). Bottom line, Experiment.
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    i've just started using this and i get a real pumped feeling (in addition to my other supps i am taking - synergistically) than i had prior to using it. no bloat, not gas, and very good energy/mood!
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    is this stuff ok for a guy on a recomp?
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    ya know...I was just telling someone the other day why I use oats in my PWO shake...I remember the debate with a certain cat that MADE this board what it is today....methinks you guys should search for it if you haven't yet. 2 of the industries heavy hitters having it out over the subject of PWO Nutrition...One of them changed my life.

    how much dextrose pwo there ya go....read it...learn it... live it!
    Last edited by rampage jackson; 02-06-2007 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Found the link
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    I like WMS no bloat, not gas, thats whats important to me cornstarch,oats,maltodextrin and dextrose = bloating,and cramping not good for hard training.
    I just wish WMS would mix easier it clogs my water bottle I'm a cyclist,as far as taste I love the plain with a dash of stevia

    freezito is this stuff ok for a guy on a recomp?
    It works great for me.

    YMMV
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    Quote Originally Posted by rampage jackson View Post
    ya know...I was just telling someone the other day why I use oats in my PWO shake...I remember the debate with a certain cat that MADE this board what it is today....methinks you guys should search for it if you haven't yet. 2 of the industries heavy hitters having it out over the subject of PWO Nutrition...One of them changed my life.

    how much dextrose pwo there ya go....read it...learn it... live it!

    such a great thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rampage jackson View Post
    2 of the industries heavy hitters having it out over the subject of PWO Nutrition...One of them changed my life.
    Who was the second heavy hitter?
    Athletic Xtreme Rep
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    You are measuring 2h and 4h increments after depleting exercise, not short term recovery (30-60 minutes). The method used was to give a 300g total (liquid carbohydrates) over 30,60,90 and 120 minutes then measure the effects. You islolated one variable without even introducing others such as pre, during nutrition as well as the addition of a fast acting protein. Those lack of variables is expressed in this statement:

    "Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks."

    Now add a protein and measure it.

    You can't say WMS is superior by isolating its effects without taking into consideration real world variables such as glycogen levels before and during (which are not even close to be depleted) and the addition of a protein as well which will have more of an effect on recovery than ANY carbohydrate drink.

    The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.


    EDIT: And I don't like this either. Rate limiting or not.....

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.


    I don't understand your point Bobo. If you want to recover from CARDIO, yeah - refilling your glycogen stores are important. To recover from weight training, glycogen storage is secondary. It's far from my main goal - especially if a lower volume, high intensity workout is followed (like I do). Then glycogen storage or re-storage is irrelevant.

    We want to reduce muscle breakdown and for THAT, speed is everything. The more carbs we get into the bloodsteam in the shortest amount of time after the workout (and the more carbs we have pre and peri workout), the higher we'll jack up insulin levels which means less cortisol and FAR LESS muscle breakdown. Less catabolism means more NET muscle gain.

    You can show me all the glycogen studies in the world, I couldn't care less. It's not even 5% of the importance from a WEIGHT TRAINING workout unless your workouts last 90-120 minutes. Then I'd worry about glycogen somewhat. My workouts are intense and 50-60 minutes. I don't drink pre/peri/post workout drinks for glycogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    I don't understand your point Bobo. If you want to recover from CARDIO, yeah - refilling your glycogen stores are important. To recover from weight training, glycogen storage is secondary. It's far from my main goal - especially if a lower volume, high intensity workout is followed (like I do). Then glycogen storage or re-storage is irrelevant.
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.

    We want to reduce muscle breakdown and for THAT, speed is everything. The more carbs we get into the bloodsteam in the shortest amount of time after the workout (and the more carbs we have pre and peri workout), the higher we'll jack up insulin levels which means less cortisol and FAR LESS muscle breakdown. Less catabolism means more NET muscle gain.

    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: zl3e@virginia.edu.

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.

    You can show me all the glycogen studies in the world, I couldn't care less. It's not even 5% of the importance from a WEIGHT TRAINING workout unless your workouts last 90-120 minutes. Then I'd worry about glycogen somewhat. My workouts are intense and 50-60 minutes. I don't drink pre/peri/post workout drinks for glycogen.
    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.




    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: zl3e@virginia.edu.

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.



    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.

    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.

    Your study on amino acids tells us NOTHING. Yes, amino acids promote protein synthesis. They do. The study you quote doesn't involve exercise. Yes, aminos promote anabolism. You and I both know that. Everyone by now should know that. They promote anabolism "in general" meaning whenever they are consumed. Your study demonstrates that. But what I am saying is that POST-EXERCISE, a human is a different being. Amino acids alone or with LOW GI carbs ARE NOT OPTIMAL. Will they reduce protein degradation and increase anabolism versus NO food? Absolutely. Will they give OPTIMAL results? You certainly haven't even begun to prove that. Yet I can prove my point. And that is that protein (whey only) PLUS HIGH GI carbs post workout will decrease catabolism and increase anabolism over and beyond what aminos alone will do.

    In a POST-EXERCISE state, insulin IS what drives anabolism and decreases catabolism. Everything you say is 100% correct - for the 22 hours of the day except for the 2 hours after exercise. The best proof of this is the control of Type II diabetes. A mild case of Type II D can be controlled with exercise ALONE. Mild cases don't even need much dietary intervention. High intensity exercise (and the higher the intensity, the better) creates muscles that are EXTREMELY insulin sensitive. Under normal conditions (which is what you always quote), fat cells are much more sensitive to insulin than muscle cells. This is why high protein, low-GI glycemic carbs are essential the other 22 hours to feed your muscles and not your fat cells. Any kind of spike of insulin under NORMAL conditions will feed your fat cells preferentially over muscle cells. Yet type II diabetics who have muscles that are extremely insensitive to insulin, can control their diabetes just by exercising intensely daily. This is b/c intense exercise makes muscle EXTREMELY sensistive to insulin for 60-90 minutes. THIS IS PHYSIOLOGY! And this is backed both by scientific studies AND "real-world" results.

    And contrary to what you wrote in this thread (I believe several years ago!), a high GI carb CAN make someone leaner (more muscle and less fat) than a low GI carb. Absolutely it can. A high GI carb will not only beat a low GI carb in recovery and muscle gains, post workout, but it will beat it in fat loss too! And yes, this is BACKED BY SCIENCE! The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb.

    This has not only been proven in studies, but in the real-world as well. Just look at a steroid user. High levels of testosterone (or a test-derivative (steroids)) will cause greater gains in muscle and greater losses of fat. Just look at any "kid" that starts steroids yet doesn't have enough knowledge or discipline to change their diet. They'll automatically gain some muscle and lose some fat. You also see this ALL OF THE TIME with people on LEGAL hormone (testosterone) replacement therapy. Without making ANY other changes, they put on muscle and lose fat. That's b/c higher levels of test shuttle more nutrients and calories to your muscles while "starving" fat cells.

    Have you ever seen someone on oral steroid medications for asthma or an illness? They blow up. They lose muscle like a wasting disease all the while gaining unbelievable amounts of fat. This is b/c cortico-steroids used in modern medicine for inflammation cause the body to shift towards storing calories and breaking down muscle. This is what our natural cortisol does and cortisol is released in large amounts when we workout. Cortisol output may also INCREASE in trained individuals which makes it harder to put on additional muscle the longer we've been training (over the years). This is one of the biggest benefits of anabolic steroids. They overpower cortisol and its catabolic effects.

    The pre and post workout shakes are the closest things natural athletes/bodybuilders can use to gain muscle and lose fat as fast as possible. A great pre/post workout drink can make it not only possible, but VERY PROBABLE to GAIN MUSCLE on a below maintenance calorie, fat loss diet.

    So in summary, a HIGH GI carb CAN and WILL beat a low GI carb post workout for not only building muscle, but losing bodyfat.

    As a side note, I'd like to point out I'm having this argument or discussion with you with all due respect. I'm not "yelling" at you or trashing you or trying to be disrespectful in any way. Sometimes intentions are not very clear on the internet with posts and threads and I just want to make my intentions clear that I'm just trying to make my point. I also use capitals in my writing for emphasis, not for "yelling or screaming". Also, for what it is worth, I have a bachelor and masters degree in nutrition and exercise and nutrition has been my foremost obsession for the past 18 years. I also work in this industry as a writer, trainer and practicing nutritionist. Thanks for your time...
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro
    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.
    Because that's what the discussion was about with WMS.

    Your study on amino acids tells us NOTHING. Yes, amino acids promote protein synthesis. They do. The study you quote doesn't involve exercise. Yes, aminos promote anabolism. You and I both know that. Everyone by now should know that. They promote anabolism "in general" meaning whenever they are consumed. Your study demonstrates that. But what I am saying is that POST-EXERCISE, a human is a different being. Amino acids alone or with LOW GI carbs ARE NOT OPTIMAL. Will they reduce protein degradation and increase anabolism versus NO food? Absolutely. Will they give OPTIMAL results? You certainly haven't even begun to prove that. Yet I can prove my point. And that is that protein (whey only) PLUS HIGH GI carbs post workout will decrease catabolism and increase anabolism over and beyond what aminos alone will do.
    Then please prove it because the studies I have are post exercise. Plus, nobody said amino's alone.

    "Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    In a POST-EXERCISE state, insulin IS what drives anabolism and decreases catabolism.
    No, it doesn't. Do you ignore studies or do you just cherry pick the ones you believe? Maybe Layne could tell you and you would believe him since since he's getting his phd in this area? Maybe Alan will as well but I know he won't go quoting his masters degree. Insulin is a factor, not THE factor.

    Does exercise pose a different physiological scenario? Yes, because exercises increase glut4 which insulin does under NORMAL feeding patters. Its also the reason WHY insulin isn't need in large amounts. Its funny in your whole paragraph you haven't even mentioned it.


    Everything you say is 100% correct - for the 22 hours of the day except for the 2 hours after exercise. The best proof of this is the control of Type II diabetes. A mild case of Type II D can be controlled with exercise ALONE. Mild cases don't even need much dietary intervention. High intensity exercise (and the higher the intensity, the better) creates muscles that are EXTREMELY insulin sensitive. Under normal conditions (which is what you always quote), fat cells are much more sensitive to insulin than muscle cells.

    High intensity exercise, any exercise, removes the need for insulin to increase glut4 for the shuttling of nutrients. Its the bodies natural response to exercise. That's fairly basic.


    This is why high protein, low-GI glycemic carbs are essential the other 22 hours to feed your muscles and not your fat cells. Any kind of spike of insulin under NORMAL conditions will feed your fat cells preferentially over muscle cells. Yet type II diabetics who have muscles that are extremely insensitive to insulin, can control their diabetes just by exercising intensely daily. This is b/c intense exercise makes muscle EXTREMELY sensistive to insulin for 60-90 minutes. THIS IS PHYSIOLOGY! And this is backed both by scientific studies AND "real-world" results.
    Yes I know..I train several type II diabetics right now. What you are forgetting is telling me HOW it does this. Well, I told you above..partly.




    nd contrary to what you wrote in this thread (I believe several years ago!), a high GI carb CAN make someone leaner (more muscle and less fat) than a low GI carb. Absolutely it can. A high GI carb will not only beat a low GI carb in recovery and muscle gains, post workout, but it will beat it in fat loss too! And yes, this is BACKED BY SCIENCE!

    Prove it. I guess all those people who I've turned around are just lying then.



    The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb.
    Please research what increase protein synthesis rates more...carbs or aminos then see which one lowers cortisol more...carbs or aminos. Hint...its amino's.

    This has not only been proven in studies, but in the real-world as well.
    Post them...I'd love to see it. Show me people who have compared both. You cna find all sorts of people around that have dropped the High GI route and for the better.

    I'd like to see the studies too because I think I've read just about every one of them.




    So in summary, a HIGH GI carb CAN and WILL beat a low GI carb post workout for not only building muscle, but losing bodyfat.
    In summary, you're wrong IMO. There are plenty of people that have made the switch for the better.

    As a side note, I'd like to point out I'm having this argument or discussion with you with all due respect. I'm not "yelling" at you or trashing you or trying to be disrespectful in any way. Sometimes intentions are not very clear on the internet with posts and threads and I just want to make my intentions clear that I'm just trying to make my point. I also use capitals in my writing for emphasis, not for "yelling or screaming". Also, for what it is worth, I have a bachelor and masters degree in nutrition and exercise and nutrition has been my foremost obsession for the past 18 years. I also work in this industry as a writer, trainer and practicing nutritionist. Thanks for your time...
    That's fine. I've had this discussion for years and have also trained people over the years with enormous amounts of success with making a simple switch.
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