Waxy Maize Starch Craze

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  1. Waxy Maize Starch Craze


    I've been reading up on Waxy Maize Starch. Can anybody tell me what the difference is between WMS and regular Cornstarch? Maize seems to be a type of corn thats ah.......Waxy. Can't we just take in Cornstarch Pre and Post workout? Here's the Nutritional Profile.
    Calories in Cornstarch


  2. I think waxy maze is made by enzymatically digestion of cornstarch to shorter polysacharide (but not as short as maltodextrine) than what is naturally found in plain cornstarch.
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  3. Anybody have any ideas on this? I'm not spending 7 bucks for a lb of starch.

  4. Im a huge fan of this. My muscles feel more full when I take it. It also gives me zero stomach bloat. I keep talking about experimenting with it as my only carb source, but I havent got around to it yet. Hopefully soon though

    Jason

  5. I am going to source this stuff. I haven't been able to yet but I will. No bloat, aw man I love it.
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  6. Thumbs up


    It's all I use anymore mach. I can't take the bloat with having to take in 3 shakes. I do 40g during my workout, 40 more with my BCAA, glutamine and CEE and then another 40 with my whey 20 mins after that. Before I even started playing on the darkside, I added about 5 lbs of muscle in 10 weeks. I LOVE the fullness of my muscles as well. I will warn you, the bulk stuff tastes like wallpaper paste, sweet wallpaper paste, I mix mine with orange Vitargo.

  7. I've found that they bake and make sauces with this stuff. I got an email back from one company saying that they didn't trade it whatever that means. There is a place in the UK that has it for 3 dollars and change a lb, but it looks like they don't ship to the US. I know TP has it, I just want cheaper. I can't imagine this stuff with superdrol.

    Edit:I just contacted a company this morning. It looks like they sell by the pallet(750kg). I inquired about pricing for laughs.

    Ok, Now when did you get a chance to taste wallpaper paste? Oh wait, you're a Ranger.That explains alot, nevermind. When I was a lifeguard, we had a guy that basically lived in the pines near the beach. Just about everyday he would come down with full gear and proceed to go swimming with full gear, maybe a mile or so. Somebody told me he would kill dear in the woods with his knife.

    I'm glad you guys are on our side. Keep up the hard work never discussed in the news.
    Last edited by Mach .78; 12-20-2006 at 08:51 AM.
  8. Question


    Did you get a price on the 750 kg package ?

    Ye, I used to do a 5 mile open ocean swim each morning as well when I transfered into the USCG. People always asked me about sharks. There was never one around me as I had a pod of dolphins that swam with me from Coquina light to the Oregon Inlet.

  9. Dolphins were my friends as well on the beach. Many dead sharks showed up because of them.

    I just sent an email back to the company I contacted this morning. They seem like they may be helpful. I asked for a price and minimum volume. She wrote back saying they sell typically by the pallet but asked what my need was. I said 20 lbs but that maybe that I could sell the rest to a company here. We'll see what she says. I just wrote her back asking for the pallet price.



    Edited: Ok first she shot me down saying that they did not sell to individuals and dealt with just the industrial sector.

    I asked for the pallet price in another email and she says....


    I leave for holiday until 1/3/06. Kindly advise of your complete contact information, and company name and we will further advise in the new year.
    Thank you.

    Best regards,
    Camille


    What should I do? Make up a company name?
    Last edited by Mach .78; 12-20-2006 at 06:12 PM.

  10. say you work at an independantly owned GNC or natural health foods store! lol i dont know

  11. WMS has a higher molecular weight than other starch derivatives. It is able to bypass the stomach for the most part. It also replenishes glycogen stores much faster than maltodextrin and dextrose. It also prevents bloating caused by maltodextrin and dextrose.

  12. (sigh)
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  13. Ok, I'm intrigued. What's on your mind B?

  14. That people are still concerned with speed when its almost irrelevant if you simply eat correctly.
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  15. Not to mention the majority of absortion is done in the small intestine, not the stomach.
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Not to mention the majority of absortion is done in the small intestine, not the stomach.
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.

    So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.
    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.



    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.
    What Bobo means is that WMS' increased rate of absorption in the gastric uptake phase is completely irrelevant because if your diet is competent glycolytic stores should not be an issue, ever.

  18. I would be interested in seeing some testing with AP and WMS, personally.

    Yes, glucogen stores should not be a problem with most people, but having used vitargo myself the reports of increased muscle fullness are valid.
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    This is from an article I read, I don't have a source though.



    According to this it bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the intestines. I was referring to this in my post when I said it bypasses the stomach.

    I don't actually take WMS because of the price, I just did some reading in my free time.
    The only thing that occurs to starches in the stomach is salivary enzymes are deactivated. In other words, it moves through the stomach extremely fast regardless.

    The majority of absortion is done within the sotmach and the same question that it seems nobody wants to ask is even if it absorbs extrmeely fast, where does it go? Glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting when large amounts are digested.


    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


    I'm just waiting for the day someone starts to sell bulk glucose powder. Why not just eliminate all the steps and cram it in as fast as we can....

    ...because the body has a way of regulating what goes where and how much is needed.
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by dsade
    I would be interested in seeing some testing with AP and WMS, personally.

    Yes, glucogen stores should not be a problem with most people, but having used vitargo myself the reports of increased muscle fullness are valid.
    Of course you are increasing fullness....you are filling glycogen stores...nothing magical about that.

    Was Maltodextrin that much more effective the Dextrose? Nope. The same arguement applies here.


    EDIT: I figured you meant glycogen, not glucagon
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  21. So let me get this straight. WMS and other heavy molecules will move through the stomach faster, but would be used to replenish glycogen stores at the same rate as a lighter molecule like dextrose because glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting.


    Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.

    Piehl Aulin K, Soderlund K, Hultman E.

    Department of Medical Sciences, University of Uppsala/LIVI, S-791 88 Falun, Sweden.

    The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (SD 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (SD 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.

    Entrez PubMed

  22. Quote Originally Posted by cdc1917
    So let me get this straight. WMS and other heavy molecules will move through the stomach faster, but would be used to replenish glycogen stores at the same rate as a lighter molecule like dextrose because glycogen resynthesis is rate limiting.
    You are measuring 2h and 4h increments after depleting exercise, not short term recovery (30-60 minutes). The method used was to give a 300g total (liquid carbohydrates) over 30,60,90 and 120 minutes then measure the effects. You islolated one variable without even introducing others such as pre, during nutrition as well as the addition of a fast acting protein. Those lack of variables is expressed in this statement:

    "Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks."

    Now add a protein and measure it.

    You can't say WMS is superior by isolating its effects without taking into consideration real world variables such as glycogen levels before and during (which are not even close to be depleted) and the addition of a protein as well which will have more of an effect on recovery than ANY carbohydrate drink.

    The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.


    EDIT: And I don't like this either. Rate limiting or not.....

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.
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  23. Alright thanks, I wasn't really trying to argue what you had said, I was just looking for some clarification. I'm going to keep my PWO nutrition as simple as possible from now on. Thanks again

  24. I understand

    What it comes down too is that you are basically splitting hairs with something that really isn't that important. Post workout is about recovery yes, but protein synthesis is the aspect people should focus on, not how fast to refill glycogen stores.
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  25. While we are on the topic of protein, what do you know or think about Liquid Beef Aminos? Has anyone here tried it? I was reading "somewhere" about them and people seem to like it. Thoughts?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Mach .78
    While we are on the topic of protein, what do you know or think about Liquid Beef Aminos? Has anyone here tried it? I was reading "somewhere" about them and people seem to like it. Thoughts?
    I think you should start a new thread on that you will get more responses that way. Or are you just trying to get Bobo to talk while you have him here lol.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump
    I think you should start a new thread on that you will get more responses that way. Or are you just trying to get Bobo to talk while you have him here lol.
    Yea, pretty much . I will be trying them out here soon and post my results in a new thread.

  28. Im curious where you get it at. I didnt run a search yet but you have pm.

  29. I LOVE waxy maize. I used to use Dextrose and it always bloated me, made me fat, and 30-60 min later gave me a stomach ache. I switched to malto with better results. I then got cheap and did rice cakes or white rice or ww bread w/ honey. All bloat me and make me sick afterward.

    WMS goes down easy and it helped maintain my pumps. I would literally workout, get my pump, lose the pump, drink my wms and 30-60 min later get another pump. It actually increased my conditioning w/in an hour after drinking it.

    I used it for my carb up too my last competition and loved it. Right now I'm not using (price - white rice is just cheaper), but I'm thinking of using it 20-40 grams IMMEDIATE postworkout w/ bcaa's, glut, and cee then using my white rice w/ my whey 30-min later.

    A hint on making it taste good:

    Mix your wms w/ ver very little water to make like a custard. Add 1-2 packets of calorie free sweetener. Tastes AWESOME!

  30. WMS differs from normal cornstarch in the content of amylopectin, look here for more info:
    Specialty Corns: Waxy, High-Amylose, High-Oil, and High-Lysine Corn, AGF-112-91
    It looks like the difference in composition isn't that big though. It sounds like the main reason for WMS is to try and get the biggest carb molecule that is still high GI (more amylopectin = higher GI), since post workout you are looking for an insulin spike.
    As far as absorption, I think any moderate to high GI food that you can tolerate, convenient, economical will work fine - not a big difference. WMS may be better tolerated by some (no personal experience), but it is kinda pricey. Lots of other options out there, just browse a GI table if you are unfamiliar ( The Glycemic Index has one). Bottom line, Experiment.
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