Soy, is there a conspiracy theory on this?
- 09-18-2006, 07:39 PM
Soy, is there a conspiracy theory on this?
I've been reading more and more about soy's effect on lowering testosterone, so been trying to cut out all foods that I eay that contain soy.
Wow I'm in shock, what doesn't have soy in it. My beef jerkey, my soup, my coffee mate, my multi and even my fish oil have soy, I've been reading everything and there is so much soy pushed on us, even my 3 times a day sesamin, has soy in it. No wonder I got low test, I'm a soy eating machine.
Is this what has happen to man over the past 10-20 years, we've wimped out on soy by some conspiracy from the era or cia fbi, fda or somebody, or ?
- 09-18-2006, 09:02 PM
:good:Originally Posted by MadJimF
Soy = SH!T
Soy aquires very negative properties.... too many to list. Do yourself and everyone you care about a favor and avoid it when you can.
Soy used to be found mainly in the varnish sections of the old hardware stores. Then as time went on, it's variety of uses became more evident but more importantly.... it remained very inexpensive to produce.
If ya ever have any spare time, here's a google search.... the dangers of soy - Google Search
- 09-18-2006, 09:20 PM
09-18-2006, 09:22 PM
- 6'2" 250 lbs.
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You are right. Soy is in a ton of stuff and it all adds up. And supplement companies use it in their protiens. ONs 100% Whey even has it in it. 100% Whey = 100% LIE. Do what you can to aviod soy at all costs.
09-19-2006, 01:41 PM
You're right that soy is friggin EVERYWHERE. It's a multimillion dollar industry that continues to grow.Originally Posted by MadJimF
I once had a client who was VERY acutely allergic to soy. She could literally break out into a bad reaction from even miniscule amounts. So I compiled a list of soy-containing foods for her (from various net sources) that's 44 pages long. I can post it here if you want.
But here's the thing that's important to note. Unless you're supplementing your diet with soy protein powder, soy-fortified products, & having tofu & edamame every day in large amounts, or if you have a clinically diagnosed soy allergy, I don't think the incidental amount of soy in the commercial food supply is gonna affect you negatively.
09-19-2006, 01:47 PM
It's Hillary Clintons attempt at getting into the WhiteHouse. Only you discovered her master plan too soon. Damn, we are now doomed for Jeb. Just couldn't let this one go could you?
09-19-2006, 02:14 PM
Soy is not the reason.Originally Posted by MadJimF
The Vindication of Soy Protein by Will Brink
Ok, now here is where things start to get interesting as it applies the bodybuilders. Though soy proteins contain these estrogenic compounds, it appears that they are "tissue specific." One study that used Rhesus monkeys found that soy proteins had no effects on the reproductive hormones of these animals. Testosterone, DHEAS, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), testicular weight, prostatic weight, and other measurements were taken. They found no difference between male animals who ate soy protein that contained the plant estrogens and those who ate soy with the estrogens removed, leading researchers to conclude: "thus, the isoflavones (genistein and diadzein) in soy protein improve cardiovascular risk factors without apparent deleterious effects on the reproductive system."
09-19-2006, 02:14 PM
Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men
Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men.
* Nagata C,
* Takatsuka N,
* Shimizu H,
* Hayashi H,
* Akamatsu T,
* Murase K.
Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.
Soy consumption has been associated with a reduced risk of prostate cancer. The mechanism for this association may involve the effect of soy on the endocrine system. We conducted a randomized dietary intervention study to determine the effects of soy consumption on serum levels of steroid hormones in men. Thirty-five men were randomly assigned to either a soymilk-supplemented group or a control group. The men in the soy-supplemented group were asked to consume 400 ml of soymilk daily for 8 weeks. The men in the control group maintained their usual diet. Blood samples were obtained just before the initiation of the dietary period and thereafter every two weeks for 12 weeks. Changes in hormone concentrations were analyzed and compared between the two groups using the mixed linear regression model against weeks from the start of the dietary period. The mean (SD) soymilk intake estimated from dietary records during the dietary study period was 342.9 (SD, 74.2) ml in the soymilk-supplemented group. There was a significant difference between the two groups in terms of changes in serum estrone concentrations, which tended to decrease in the soy-supplemented group and increase in the control group over time. None of the other hormones measured (estradiol, total and free-testosterone, or sex hormone-binding globulin) showed any statistical difference between the two groups in terms of patterns of change. The results of the study indicate that soymilk consumption may modify circulating estrone concentrations in men.
PMID: 11303585 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hormonal response to diets high in soy or animal protein without and with isoflavones in moderately hypercholesterolemic subjects
Nutr Cancer. 2005;51(1):1-6.Click here to read Links
Hormonal response to diets high in soy or animal protein without and with isoflavones in moderately hypercholesterolemic subjects.
* Goldin BR,
* Brauner E,
* Adlercreutz H,
* Ausman LM,
* Lichtenstein AH.
Department of Family Medicine and Community Medicine, Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, MA 02111, USA.
Consumption of soy protein has been associated with altered risk of developing endocrine-regulated cancers. This study was designed to assess the independent effect of soy relative to animal protein and soy-derived isoflavones on circulating estrogen and androgen concentrations in postmenopausal women and older men. Forty-two subjects (> 50 yr) with low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels of > or = 3.36 mmol/l were fed each of 4 diets in randomized order for 6 wk/phase. All food and drink were provided. Diets contained 25 g soy or common sources of animal protein/4.2 MJ containing trace or 50 mg isoflavones/4.2 MJ. At the end of each diet phase, concentrations of estrone sulfate, estrone, estradiol, testosterone, androstendione, dihydrotestosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate were measured. In postmenopausal women, concentrations of estrone were higher and its precursor, dehydroepiandrosterone, lower after consuming the soy compared with animal protein diets (P = 0.0396 and 0.0374, respectively). There was no significant effect of isoflavones on any of the hormones measured. In older men, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate concentrations were lower after consuming the isoflavone (P = 0.0106) and higher after soy, compared with the animal protein diets (P = 0.0118). These data suggest that relatively large amounts of soy protein or soy-derived isoflavones had modest and limited sex-specific effects on circulating hormone levels.
PMID: 15749623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
09-19-2006, 02:51 PM
Not to be disrespectfull, but if you realize that it is everywhere, than how did you come to the conclusion that it is only found in incidental amounts in the commercial market?Originally Posted by alan aragon
How much of something that is harmfull, is ok to keep exposing yourself to, without having negative effects?
09-19-2006, 03:25 PM
No disrespect taken.Originally Posted by NO HYPE
My mentioning of it being "friggin everywhere" was meant figuratively, not literally. That statement was to illustrate just how pervasive the presence of soy is, and also to segue into the mentioning of a 44 page list I have of soy-containing foods.
I was also speaking in the context of a client with a severly acute soy allergy trying to avoid even trace amounts. The mentioning of "incidental" amounts came from the original poster saying "My beef jerkey, my soup, my coffee mate, my multi and even my fish oil have soy". Realize that the term incidental implies small or accidental or default. Ie, not specifically fortified with significant amounts.
As per the question of how much is too much, I'd like to know that one myself. Unfortunately, it's not a clear-cut case. It would be a fun project to sift through the research & come to some more answers, although they likely won't be definitive. Note that soy industry-funded studies ain't gonna list negatives
I'll be back to discuss this further when I get back from the hospital, just got a call that my wife went into labor.
09-19-2006, 03:54 PM
Nor will dairy-funded studies list positives.Originally Posted by alan aragon
09-19-2006, 04:27 PM
I must say.... you definetly clarified that one.Originally Posted by alan aragon
I think I remember reading that soy takes up over 65% of the commercial market. In my opinion (though not worth much) the majority of the overall population, unknowingly consumes too much soy, without realizing the potential, negative repercussions.
I mean.... just look at the amount of women going into the local Starbucks, and ordering soy this and soy that, on a daily basis.... sometimes twice a day. I wonder how they would feel about the fact that soy contains a high amount of goitrogens and phytic acid.... or should I say.... stuff that depresses thyroid function and dramatically blocks the absorbtion of calcium and minerals?
I should just make copies of a google search and other literature on the dangers of soy and just toss em out everywhere.
Anyways, good luck with the delivery.
09-19-2006, 04:41 PM
It's used so much because it's dirt cheap to manufacture.
09-19-2006, 05:19 PM
The Vindication of Soy Protein by Will BrinkOriginally Posted by NO HYPE
Now I have saved the best part for last regarding the upside of soy proteins. Soy protein has been found to raise thyroid output in a wide range of animals from rats to rabbits and pigs. Studies done with human subjects have been harder to quantify (what else is new?), but several studies suggest an effect on thyroid hormones in people eating soy protein isolate. Soy protein has been shown to raise thyroid hormone output which could be a real advantage to bodybuilders trying to shed some fat. The intake of various high quality proteins has been associated with higher levels of thyroid hormone, but soy appears to have thyroid hormone raising abilities unique to that of other proteins.
Though some research has shown changes in T3 and thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), the real effect appears to be with T4 which is elevated consistently in the studies done using animals-and to a lesser degree people-eating soy proteins. Also, some studies have found changes in the insulin/glucagon ratio that would favor reductions in cholesterol and possibly bodyfat. At this time, exactly how soy proteins have this effect on thyroid output is not well understood, but their working on it.
09-19-2006, 05:44 PM
Skeletal benefits of soy isoflavones: a review of the clinical trial and epidemiologic data.Originally Posted by NO HYPE
1: Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 Nov;7(6):649-58.Click here to read Links
Skeletal benefits of soy isoflavones: a review of the clinical trial and epidemiologic data.
* Messina M,
* Ho S,
* Alekel DL.
Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California, USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
PURPOSE OF REVIEW: Osteoporosis is a worldwide problem of immense magnitude that is expected to worsen in many countries with aging populations. Consequently, there is a need to identify ways to reduce the risk of developing this disease. This is especially true in light of clinical trial data showing the long-term harm of conventional hormone therapy outweighs the benefits. It is well established that many dietary components impact the skeletal system; in this regard there is particular interest in the possible skeletal benefits of soybean isoflavones. The purpose of this review is to evaluate the clinical and epidemiologic studies relevant to the hypothesis that isoflavones promote bone health. RESULTS: Fifteen clinical trials were identified that examined the effects of isoflavones or isoflavone-rich soy protein on bone mineral density. Most trials were conducted for 1 year or less and involved relatively few (<30) participants per group. The findings from these studies are inconsistent but generally suggest that isoflavones reduce bone loss in younger postmenopausal women. Similarly, the limited epidemiologic data generally show that among Asian populations isoflavone intake is associated with higher bone mineral density. The clinical data suggest that approximately 80 mg/day isoflavones are needed to derive skeletal benefits whereas the epidemiologic data suggest lower amounts are efficacious. SUMMARY: Until more definite data are available, although soy foods and isoflavones can not be viewed as substitutes for established anti-osteoporotic medications health professionals can feel justified in encouraging postmenopausal women concerned about bone health to incorporate soyfoods into their diet.
PMID: 15534433 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
09-19-2006, 10:00 PM
Goitrogens are substances that supress the function of the thyroid gland, and wich can also cause an enlargement of the thyroid.Originally Posted by NO HYPE
Goitrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
09-19-2006, 10:23 PM
Phytic acid is a strong chelator of important minerals such as calcium, magnesium, iron, and zincOriginally Posted by NO HYPE
Phytic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ok so my use of the word "dramatically" was inacurate.
09-19-2006, 11:22 PM
I realize that there are some beneficial properties that can be derived from soy, but there is just too much evidence to support it's negative properties and in my opinion, the negatives outweigh the positives.... here's a few more of them.
CONCLUSION: Soy protein, reguardless of isoflavone content, modulates serum lipid ratios in a direction beneficial for cardiovascular disease risk in healthy young men.
These goitrogens showed significant tumor promoting effect or promoting tendency on the rat thyroids.
CONCLUSION: Soy isoflavones attenuated bone loss from the lumbar spine in premenopausal women.
Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate attenuates bone loss in the lumbar spine of perimenopausal women -- Alekel et al. 72 (3): 844 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
09-20-2006, 01:30 PM
I think you read this wrong if you were citing it as a negative. It is beneficial. Here is the text prior to the conclusion:Originally Posted by NO HYPE
RESULTS: Urinary isoflavones were significantly greater with consumption of the high-iso SPI than with that of the low-iso SPI or MPI. The differences between the 3 treatments with respect to individual serum lipids were not significant, but the ratios of total to HDL cholesterol, LDL to HDL cholesterol, and apo B to apo A-I were significantly lower with both SPI treatments...
Lower ratios of total to HDL and LDL to HDL cholesterols are good signs or decreased risk of cardiovascular disease, and apo B is atherogenic while apo A-I is antiatherogenic.
Definition of attenuateCONCLUSION: Soy isoflavones attenuated bone loss from the lumbar spine in premenopausal women.
Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate attenuates bone loss in the lumbar spine of perimenopausal women -- Alekel et al. 72 (3): 844 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
Attenuate: To weaken, dilute, thin, reduce, weaken, diminish.
Thus in this study it is shown to reduce bone loss.
Also the goitrogenic properties have only been concluded to be in rodents from what I've read. Did you see the other foods referenced as goitrogens in your wiki link? Pine nuts, Peanuts, Millet, Strawberries, Peaches, Spinach, Radishes and cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli. Interesting as well is the foods referenced to have the opposite effect, none of which I have a problem with btw.
Intragroup differences for all three measures were statistically indistinguishable at 6 months, and levels were similar between the isoflavone supplement and placebo groups at each measurement. These results indicate that in this group of healthy iodine-replete subjects, soy isoflavones do not adversely affect thyroid function.
While on the subject of thyroid:
The consumption of traditional and nontraditional soy-based foods and alfalfa sprouts were associated with reduced risk of thyroid cancer. Consumption of "western" foods with added soy flour or soy protein did not affect risk.
The only risk cited is in those with known risk of mineral deficiencies. Phytic acid aka Inositol Hexaphosphate aka IP6 has the properties of and is also used as a nootropic.Originally Posted by NO HYPE
What is interesting to me is that all of the anti-soy rhetoric started after soy was touted as a viable substitute for dairy, and with the exception of infants (which in all but the most extreme cases breast-feeding is the only acceptable option anyway) most studies referencing adverse actions of soy have been done in rodents while most human studies indicate otherwise. I just feel the anti-soy rhetoric is far overblown. There are pros and cons it seems to all foods we consume. Excessive protein ingestion may lead to adverse kidney health but is the building block of muscle, saturated fats support test levels and stimulate thyroid but have adverse effects on cardiovascular health, the list goes on and on. It does not effect me either way whether you consume soy or not, but find me one food that has absolutely no potential to adversely affect our health or our goals. Everything in moderation my friend.
09-21-2006, 07:09 AM
.... WOW.Originally Posted by Supa Freek 420
Apparently, I need to learn how to read again.
So ya wanna come help me with my homework?
You would think that the statement should have read.... in a direction beneficial for (PREVENTING THE RISK OF) cardiovascular disease in healthy young men.
On a side note, I think I remember that the highest amount of goitrogens and aluminum, belong to the soybean.
09-22-2006, 02:28 PM
Related stuff to chew on.......
Soy has potential negative vascular effects in men:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jul;86(7):3053-60.
Dietary soy has both beneficial and potentially adverse cardiovascular effects: a placebo-controlled study in men and postmenopausal women.
Teede HJ, Dalais FS, Kotsopoulos D, Liang YL, Davis S, McGrath BP.
To address the cardiovascular effects of dietary soy containing phytoestrogens, we measured blood pressure (BP), lipids, vascular function (systemic arterial compliance and pulse wave velocity), and endothelial function (flow-mediated vasodilation) in a randomized, double-blind trial. Two hundred thirteen healthy subjects (108 men and 105 postmenopausal women), 50-75 yr old, received either soy protein isolate (40 g soy protein, 118 mg isoflavones) or casein placebo for 3 months. There were 34 withdrawals (16%), with 179 subjects (96 men and 83 women) completing the protocol. After intervention in the soy group, compared with casein placebo, urinary phytoestrogens increased, accompanied by a significant fall in BP reflected by the BP model (P < 0.01) encompassing mean change (+/-SEM) in systolic (-7.5 +/- 1.2 vs. -3.6 +/- 1.1 mm Hg, P < 0.05), diastolic (-4.3 +/- 0.8 vs. -1.9 +/- 0.7 mm Hg, P < 0.05), and mean BP (-5.5 +/- 1 vs. -0.9 +/- 1 mm Hg, P < 0.008). In the lipid model, soy induced greater changes, compared with placebo (P < 0.001). On individual analysis, significant contributors included a reduction in the low- to high-density lipoprotein ratio (-0.33 +/- 0.1 vs. 0.04 +/- 0.1 mmol/L, P < 0.05) and triglycerides (-0.2 +/- 0.05 vs. -0.01 +/- 0.05 mol/L, P < 0.05) and an increase in Lp(a) lipoprotein (+/- 95% confidence interval) [42 (range, 17-67) vs. 4 (range, -22-31) mg/L, P < 0.05], whereas total, low-density lipoprotein, and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol improved in both groups; but no treatment effect was demonstrated. The arterial functional model demonstrated no difference between groups; although again, overall function improved in both groups. On individual analysis, peripheral PWV (reflecting peripheral vascular resistance) improved with soy (P < 0.01), whereas flow-mediated vasodilation (reflecting endothelial function) declined (in males only), compared with casein placebo (P < 0.02). No effect of treatment on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis was noted in males or females. In normotensive men and postmenopausal women, soy improved BP and lipids but, overall, did not improve vascular function. Potential adverse effects were noted, with a decline in endothelial function (in males only) and an increase in Lp(a). Further research in hypertensive and hyperlipidemic populations is needed.
Milk beats out soy for lean mass gains in young men:
J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):134S-139S.
Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.
Phillips SM, Hartman JW, Wilkinson SB.
Resistance exercise is fundamentally anabolic and as such stimulates the process of skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in an absolute sense and relative to skeletal muscle protein breakdown (MPB). However, the net effect of resistance exercise is to shift net protein balance (NPB = MPS - MPB) to a more positive value; however, in the absence of feeding NPB remains negative. Feeding stimulates MPS to an extent where NPB becomes positive, for a transient time. When combined, resistance exercise and feeding synergistically interact to result in NPB being greater than with feeding alone. This feeding- and exercise-induced stimulation of NPB is what, albeit slowly, results in muscle hypertrophy. With this rudimentary knowledge we are now at the point where we can manipulate variables within the system to see what impact these interventions have on the processes of MPS, MPB, and NPB and ultimately and perhaps most importantly, muscle hypertrophy and strength. We used established models of skeletal muscle amino acid turnover to examine how protein source (milk versus soy) acutely affects the processes of MPS and MPB after resistance exercise. Our findings revealed that even when balanced quantities of total protein and energy are consumed that milk proteins are more effective in stimulating amino acid uptake and net protein deposition in skeletal muscle after resistance exercise than are hydrolyzed soy proteins. Importantly, the finding of increased amino acid uptake would be independent of the differences in amino acid composition of the two proteins. We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.
Soy (compared to milk protein) decreases grip strength in postmenopausal women:
Maturitas. 2005 Oct 16;52(2):102-10. Links
Soy isoflavones, body composition, and physical performance.Kok L, Kreijkamp-Kaspers S, Grobbee DE, Lampe JW, van der Schouw YT.
The Julius Center for Health Sciences and Primary Care, University Medical Center Utrecht, The Netherlands.
OBJECTIVES: Physiologic changes, occurring during the process of aging, can have serious health consequences, such as increased risk of chronic disease and disability. Decline in estradiol levels after menopause is hypothesized to contribute to this risk. Thus, hormone therapy (HT) might prevent or delay those changes. However, HT has serious side effects and alternative approaches are needed. METHODS: We performed a 12-month double-blind randomized trial comparing soy protein containing 99mg isoflavones (aglycone weights) with milk protein (placebo) daily in 202 postmenopausal women aged 60-75 years. Endpoints were body composition, and physical performance. Randomization resulted in reasonable well-balanced groups, 153 (76%) women completed the trial. Compliance was good (plasma genistein levels 55 +/- 101 and 1259 +/- 1610 nmol/L for placebo and soy group, respectively). The changes in the endpoints during the intervention period among the two intervention groups were analyzed. RESULTS: Body mass index (BMI) and waist-to-hip ratio did not change during intervention. Handgrip strength at the final visit was slightly worse in the soy group compared to the placebo group (-0.45 kg (95% C.I.: -2.5, 1.6 kg; p = 0.7), but this difference was not statistically significant. Self-reported functional status, mobility and physical performance, all slightly improved during intervention but there were no differences between the groups. CONCLUSIONS: The results of the present trial do not support the view that soy isoflavones have favorable effects on body composition and physical performance in postmenopausal women.
09-22-2006, 02:34 PM
1) True dat. Science & commerce always have this annoyingly blurred line separating them.Originally Posted by Supa Freek 420
2) Thanks man! I now have another healthy baby boy. I won't be sleeping much over the next few months, during which time I will be praising all reseach funded by the coffee industry
09-22-2006, 09:01 PM
- 5'8" 212 lbs.
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congrats on your new baby boy Alan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09-22-2006, 09:27 PM
Thanks very much. I think he will be the final hurrah for us. My wife & I are getting a little too old for this baby stuffOriginally Posted by Leggo my Ego
09-30-2006, 01:01 PM
I think ALMOST any product that television comercials push, shows, or benefits of Soy are all conspiracys if you wanna say. Couldent think of the word?
The media pushes
Pharacuticals, Diet Drinks, Low Carb/No carb everything, Low Fat/No Fat everything, Soy everything!, Antacids/Gas relievers, Pain Relievers.
Watch something during the day and see what they are trying to sell you. It's really interesting the things you find or actully realize.
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