Why not eat fats with carbs?

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    Question Why not eat fats with carbs?


    I keep seeing people say to eat protein and carbs together or protein and fats together BUT NOT TO EAT CARBS AND FATS TOGETHER.

    Why is this? And I'm not looking for, "it will make you fat" either. I would like to understand the reasoning.

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    This is just a way IMO to help with digestion, have you heard about Montignac and food combining? ex if you eat potatoes with steak, the whole mix will slow digestion and you will feel bloated for awhile. Which could lead to fat gain. IMO, it does not matter, as long as you eat clean, and are consious of what you eat. Just my opinion...
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    if you got high insulin from carb the fats in your blood will likely get stored in adiposcits
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    Good post, I am also learning a lot. Reps
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    I just read in a Scivation "Strength and Science" issue... you are supposed to eat fats with carbs and protein by its self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 314
    if you got high insulin from carb the fats in your blood will likely get stored in adiposcits

    The fats will reduce the spike in insulin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stxnas
    I keep seeing people say to eat protein and carbs together or protein and fats together BUT NOT TO EAT CARBS AND FATS TOGETHER.

    Why is this? And I'm not looking for, "it will make you fat" either. I would like to understand the reasoning.
    Ignorance is the main reason.

    Well balanced intake with carbohydrates that have a low to moderate glycemic effect is the way to go. Caloric balance is essential. Excess kcals=weight gain and higher chance of fat gain...
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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    dude a natty pb sandwhich on whole wheat bread is the SH*T
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCFan023
    dude a natty pb sandwhich on whole wheat bread is the SH*T
    Bump to dat!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21
    Ignorance is the main reason.

    Well balanced intake with carbohydrates that have a low to moderate glycemic effect is the way to go. Caloric balance is essential. Excess kcals=weight gain and higher chance of fat gain...

    at least someone knows what they are talking about.

    You can only "spruce up" healthy eating so much. After everyone has talked about eating chicken, tuna, lean red meats, turkey, and oatmeal, ww breads and healthy fats, people still need something to "kick that diet in gear"....enter Berardi and his bull****. If it "works" for you, im glad to hear it...eat clean, try to get adequate protein throughout the day and stop sweating the small ****. (and when I mean clean....I mean clean).
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    I know there probly isnt a lot of "good" science to back this up, but I have read before that eating protein first helps release stronger digestive enzymes so that after you ingest protein and you eat carbs/fats they're digested with more ease...any thoughts?
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    this is what i read...

    The function of the digestive system.
    I eat proteins first for 2 reasons-that digestive system is physiologically geared that way and it improves the effeciency of digestion and a greater overall availability of proteins/aminos from food for the body to use.
    Carbohydrates are digested 30% in the mouth with the salivary enzyme amylase and of course chewing.
    CARBS aren't digested in the stomach=they just sit there and slowly pass into the small intestines where the pancreatic enzymes do 70% more and complete the process.
    Fats are the same way if eaten first or mixed with carbs will sit there and clog up digestion.
    Proteins are primarily digested in the stomach. Therfore, eating proteins after these foods will result in a reduced amount of protein digestion-leaving some incompletely digested and unabsorbable and therefore lost.
    This in turn causes the undigested protein to be pulled into the small intestine reducing the protein effeciency of your meal and contributing to the mass of your colon.
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    please remember, not really my thoughts, i am giving this a shot but plz dont tear into me..
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21
    Ignorance is the main reason.

    Well balanced intake with carbohydrates that have a low to moderate glycemic effect is the way to go. Caloric balance is essential. Excess kcals=weight gain and higher chance of fat gain...
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo
    at least someone knows what they are talking about.

    You can only "spruce up" healthy eating so much. After everyone has talked about eating chicken, tuna, lean red meats, turkey, and oatmeal, ww breads and healthy fats, people still need something to "kick that diet in gear"....enter Berardi and his bull****. If it "works" for you, im glad to hear it...eat clean, try to get adequate protein throughout the day and stop sweating the small ****. (and when I mean clean....I mean clean).


    A lot of what you read in exercise science and nutrition is from authors trying to re-invent the wheel to sell themselves and/or their products.
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    I agree. Authors have real incentive to come up with something new. Some of them are bull****ers looking for easy $, and a few are actually trying to build a better wheel (which may not be possible anyway).

    Many readers are eager to adopt these new "better" strategies. They need to make body comp changes extra fast because they're out of shape (because they couldn't stick to a clean, balanced diet and exercise plan in the first place). Adkins anybody? It's the same reason everyone's looking for the magic pill.
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    Very interesting, but I guess there are too many theories out there that it's almost impossible to clear and sum it up. Just eat well, balanced diet and you will see results. Guaranteed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent
    I just read in a Scivation "Strength and Science" issue... you are supposed to eat fats with carbs and protein by its self.
    ???


    Fats might decrease the insulin response but it increases the total glycemic load. Don't understand that one at all. Increasing the glycemic load with caloric dense foods doesn't make much sense to me.

    I disgree with that 100%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox


    A lot of what you read in exercise science and nutrition is from authors trying to re-invent the wheel to sell themselves and/or their products.

    While ignoring some of most basic nutrition concepts/facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbs6
    this is what i read...

    The function of the digestive system.
    I eat proteins first for 2 reasons-that digestive system is physiologically geared that way and it improves the effeciency of digestion and a greater overall availability of proteins/aminos from food for the body to use.
    Carbohydrates are digested 30% in the mouth with the salivary enzyme amylase and of course chewing.
    CARBS aren't digested in the stomach=they just sit there and slowly pass into the small intestines where the pancreatic enzymes do 70% more and complete the process.
    Fats are the same way if eaten first or mixed with carbs will sit there and clog up digestion.
    Proteins are primarily digested in the stomach. Therfore, eating proteins after these foods will result in a reduced amount of protein digestion-leaving some incompletely digested and unabsorbable and therefore lost.
    This in turn causes the undigested protein to be pulled into the small intestine reducing the protein effeciency of your meal and contributing to the mass of your colon.
    You are confusing digestion with absortion in many of those points (while some are just incorrect). Primary digetsion is breaking down solids into chyme then breaking down chyme to be absorbed into the bloodstrem through various pathways. The makeup of a meal and its individual properties determine how digestion/absortion takes place. Stating protein digests this way and carbs digest this way is incorrect becasue even within those macronturients there are varitions that determine how much and how fast gets digested and absorbed. There are simply too many variables to make blanket statements about macronutrient digestion.

    Example: A steak will take much longer to digest because of its fat content even though its an extremely high protein source. The protein portion has little to do with the intial stages of breaking down fats into lipids and until that is accomplished the protein portion won't be absorbed.

    Too many variables.
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    ok cool, thanks bobo, what are your thoughst on how much protein can raise metabolism? Just out of curiosity. Because once I hired my protein intake (i also had 4 high carb days and 3 low to medium carb days) I dropped fat pretty damn fast. Just wondering what you have to say. Thanks.
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    One more quick thing bobo, will fiber in veggies blunt some absorption ofn nutrients if in large quantities and maybe before the rest of a meal. (Like a ton of veggies right before eating the protein portion of a meal). Just wondering what your opinion is. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    ???


    Fats might decrease the insulin response but it increases the total glycemic load. Don't understand that one at all. Increasing the glycemic load with caloric dense foods doesn't make much sense to me.

    I disgree with that 100%.
    From "Strength and Science"
    "Cut Diet Principles"
    Chuck Rudolph, Marc Lobliner, Derek Charlesbois.
    Never Combine Carbohydrates and Protein
    The fact of the matter is, by utiliizing this approach, the insulin spike is dramatically minimized and the carbohydrates will do what we ant them to do, refill glycogen stores and support healty thryroid function. When you combine fat and carbohydrates, the fat encapsulates the carbohydrate and sloes down digestion, minimizing insulin spike. When you combine proteon and carbohydratesm it sends insulin skyrockting and can lead to the last thing you want when dieting, fat storage.

    We like to refeed with starcky, nutruent-dense carbohydrates and good fats with no protein every thurs day depending on caloric intake. This all depends on the bodytype of the individual.... The reason for this is to get the body in a fat-burning state but not allow it to think it's starving. One problem we have with the low-carbohydrate phase is that a person's metabolic rate functions off of calories from? carbohydrates. If you cut out carbohydrates all the way, the body begins to sense a state of starvation. This will slow down the metabolic rate as well as thyroid production and you then hit the wall.
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    I just cant agree with that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent
    From "Strength and Science"
    "Cut Diet Principles"
    Chuck Rudolph, Marc Lobliner, Derek Charlesbois.


    These guys have little knowledge of how insulin works.

    Next they'll be suggesting to eat green vegetables only when facing west, animal protein only in spring, and dairy when hanging upside down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox


    These guys have little knowledge of how insulin works.

    Next they'll be suggesting to eat green vegetables only when facing west, animal protein only in spring, and dairy when hanging upside down.

    Derek is a well respected guy in the industry. He has two great companies, so he must know something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent
    Derek is a well respected guy in the industry. He has two great companies, so he must know something.
    Don't get me wrong, I didn't say that he didn't know anything. Just that his understanding of insulin was lacking.

    For arguments sake, one could say that J Berardi is respected yet his theory on Fat and Carb exclusion is contradictory to Derek's. So who, if either, is right?
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    Isn't Marc the owner of the two companies? Unless I missed something along the way...
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    When you combine fat and carbohydrates, the fat encapsulates the carbohydrate and sloes down digestion, minimizing insulin spike.
    I can think of two ways of seeing this.

    A.) The total calorie content of the meal is kept constant. In order to add fat, one must then subtract a corresponding amount of carbs. The reduction in insulin response is arguably due to less carb intake than the combination of macros.

    B.) Carb content is kept constant and fat is added therefore increasing total calorie content (anyone see a problem here?). Since adding fat also adds to the glycemic load, the insulin 'spike' will increase more in duration than its peak will be lowered; overall area under the curve will be greater.

    IMO neither of these really validate the original statement of the addition of fat effecting lower insulin output.

    When you combine proteon and carbohydratesm it sends insulin skyrockting and can lead to the last thing you want when dieting, fat storage.
    So if P + C makes you fat but adding F to C does not, then adding more F to C should make you less fat? I dunno, call me skeptical...
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    I for one, generally follow the P+C (generally morning/PWO) and P+F meal plans. The science can be debated with contradicoty theories/viewpoints/studies. For me, this approach has always been successful, whether I am clean bulking or cutting. Should mention that obviously caloric intake will have an overriding effect

    One other factor why I read J.Berardi's work is his emphasis on health (fruit/veg with every meal) which some diets clearly ignore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox
    I can think of two ways of seeing this.

    A.) The total calorie content of the meal is kept constant. In order to add fat, one must then subtract a corresponding amount of carbs. The reduction in insulin response is arguably due to less carb intake than the combination of macros.

    B.) Carb content is kept constant and fat is added therefore increasing total calorie content (anyone see a problem here?). Since adding fat also adds to the glycemic load, the insulin 'spike' will increase more in duration than its peak will be lowered; overall area under the curve will be greater.

    IMO neither of these really validate the original statement of the addition of fat effecting lower insulin output.


    So if P + C makes you fat but adding F to C does not, then adding more F to C should make you less fat? I dunno, call me skeptical...


    For me, F+C= much harder to cut, even if Im in cal deficit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew69


    For me, F+C= much harder to cut, even if Im in cal deficit.
    First off, thanks for everybody's responses so far. I wasn't sure if I was going to get any or not from this thread.

    This leads me to another question. I know a calorie surplus is what can lead to fat gain (3500 = 1lbs). Some have said F+C lends itself more easily to result in fat. So does this mean that theoretically the right (or wrong) macro combination, although fewer than 3500 surplus calories, can still lead to a pound of fat? Does that question make sense? It was hard to spit out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stxnas
    This leads me to another question. I know a calorie surplus is what can lead to fat gain (3500 = 1lbs). Some have said F+C lends itself more easily to result in fat. So does this mean that theoretically the right (or wrong) macro combination, although fewer than 3500 surplus calories, can still lead to a pound of fat? Does that question make sense? It was hard to spit out.
    No you cannot gain a pound of fat with less than the '3500' calorie surplus. This is a consequence of energy conservation laws.

    The reason that some people say that C + F will lead to more fat gain is because that to build muscle the body needs protein for materials and energy for the building. Without available protein the body's only large scale storage option is fat. This is another reason why eating some protein with every meal is recommended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent
    From "Strength and Science"
    "Cut Diet Principles"
    Chuck Rudolph, Marc Lobliner, Derek Charlesbois.
    I disagree 100% with that. I really don't understand where he is coming from with that one at all.

    "When you combine fat and carbohydrates, the fat encapsulates the carbohydrate and sloes down digestion, minimizing insulin spike. When you combine proteon and carbohydratesm it sends insulin skyrockting and can lead to the last thing you want when dieting, fat storage."

    I don't understnad how a fat can encapsulate a carbohydate. This completely ignores the total glycemic load.

    Fats don't always slow down digestion either especially in a liquified form. There is a big difference in the digestion of solid fat (think steak) and the digestion of a shake with added fats.

    This just seems extremely generalized to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by max silver
    Isn't Marc the owner of the two companies? Unless I missed something along the way...
    Correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stxnas
    First off, thanks for everybody's responses so far. I wasn't sure if I was going to get any or not from this thread.

    This leads me to another question. I know a calorie surplus is what can lead to fat gain (3500 = 1lbs). Some have said F+C lends itself more easily to result in fat. So does this mean that theoretically the right (or wrong) macro combination, although fewer than 3500 surplus calories, can still lead to a pound of fat? Does that question make sense? It was hard to spit out.
    You can have a greater chance of storong fat with different macronutrients because of the chances of such macro being stored as fat. By definition fats are the easiest stored, carbs second, protein last. By the same token those same macors have different thermic values which in most nutrition books doen'st mean much but when you are taking 3-4 times the recommmended FDA guideline is can have an effect. Now in this case if you are eating excess calories the higher protein intake will help resist excess fat gain but it must be coupled with moderate and smart carb/fat choices while keeping the majority of your diet to whole foods (since the body digests and abosrbes whole foods better) and increase fiber intake (which helps regulate glucose leves). Now it does sound complimcated but the easiest way you can make this simple is to start form a 40/40/20 diet and adjust from there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You can have a greater chance of storong fat with different macronutrients because of the chances of such macro being stored as fat. By definition fats are the easiest stored, carbs second, protein last. By the same token those same macors have different thermic values which in most nutrition books doen'st mean much but when you are taking 3-4 times the recommmended FDA guideline is can have an effect. Now in this case if you are eating excess calories the higher protein intake will help resist excess fat gain but it must be coupled with moderate and smart carb/fat choices while keeping the majority of your diet to whole foods (since the body digests and abosrbes whole foods better) and increase fiber intake (which helps regulate glucose leves). Now it does sound complimcated but the easiest way you can make this simple is to start form a 40/40/20 diet and adjust from there.
    Damn Bobo, you just answered all my questions that I had when I started this thread...and you did it in a way that I could understand! Thanks for it keeping simple. I'm no simpleton in any manner, but I have never studied any of this stuff before. Thanks again.
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