1. Calling all nutrition gurus...

Okay, I was just going over a diet (another that I wont go through with *sigh*) and got to thinking...

Well, most people calculate macro ratios...that is, they will have a percentage of their total calories from each of the three major macronutrients. On top of that, many people eat different amounts of food on different days. For example, more cals on training days then non-training days, etc.

However, why do we need to vary things like fat and protein based off of our caloric increases? Protein and fat are not primary sources of energy (not so much dietary fat anyway), so why should we vary it?

What I'm saying is, should we just base our protein and fat intakes off of our LBM, and let carbs take care of the rest of the cal intake, and let it be the only macro that varies on a day to day basis.

For example, say I need 3200kcal to cut on workout days, and 2700 on non-workout days. I'll give my body .65g/kg of fat and 3.3g/kg of protein on both types of days. However, I'll vary the carbs.

So, no matter what day of the week it is, for protein and fat we'll have this:

100kg* 3.3g protein/kg = 330g protein
100kg* 0.65g fat/kg = 65g fat
That's a consistent 1905 calories day to day.

This would mean that I have different cal requirments left over from day to day, which can be filled with carbs. So, I would need 324g carbs on a training day and on a non-training day I'll need 198g carbs.

Makes sense to me, and it would actually make eating much easier for me. I hate changing fat and protein intake.

Insight appreciated.

2. Not only is that a good idea, many people do just that and get great results from it. I am just too lazy to change calories based on activity so I just eat the same every day and hope by the end of the week it will all balance out.

3. Excellent idear. I'm going to give that some thought.
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4. Oh yeah, I just re-read and forgot to state something...hehe..basically, I meant to ask somewhere in there if there was a good reason for increasing fat and/or protein intake on workout days, rather than just timing the deliveryof those nutrients appropriately.

thx for the response bpmartyr...I knew it wasn't "original", I just wanted to discuss it a litle bit

5. Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

thx for the response bpmartyr...I knew it wasn't "original", I just wanted to discuss it a litle bit
I know bro, just gettin the discussion rollin.

6. I'm working towards leaning out right now and I do exactly that, vary the carbs which also varies the calories depending on energy requirements. It works great, since the first of the year I've lost ~10 lbs. and from what I can tell it's all fat and I've had no plateaus. In my case it works out to 300g Protein, ~50g Fat, and 300g Carbs (W/O days), and 150g Carbs (Non-W/O days).

7. Originally Posted by bpmartyr
Not only is that a good idea, many people do just that and get great results from it. I am just too lazy to change calories based on activity so I just eat the same every day and hope by the end of the week it will all balance out.
Same here.

CROWLER

8. Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Oh yeah, I just re-read and forgot to state something...hehe..basically, I meant to ask somewhere in there if there was a good reason for increasing fat and/or protein intake on workout days, rather than just timing the deliveryof those nutrients appropriately.

thx for the response bpmartyr...I knew it wasn't "original", I just wanted to discuss it a litle bit
Well, I believe this would be a variable but in general I couldn't see a particular reason for it. I like your ideas behind carbs and their important role. Especially if one is not bulking, it may not be all that beneficial to rev up protein and fat on workout days.

It's always best to listen to your body though. But, yea...I think upping the carbs on workout days and other things constant isn't a bad way of doing things.

9. Excellent topic. Although I am far from a nutrition guru I have often thought about this. I figure my needs daily depending on my LBM and my activity for the day (using MET's). I then add them for the week and divide by 7, spreading out the calories evenly. I have thought about changing up/down depending on the expenditure for the day. I have not done this because I started thinking that the actual day that my needs are increased is not the day I need the calories, but the 24-36 hour period after. I am not sure of the validity of my thinking but I do know most of the repletion and tissue repair occurs in that time range. IMO the day after a heavy exercise day is just as important as the day of even if that day is an off day from exercise.

10. Originally Posted by jonny21
I am not sure of the validity of my thinking but I do know most of the repletion and tissue repair occurs in that time range.
You could darn well be on in that regard. I know John Berardi does that with his diets. He doesn't change the kcal intake according to day, he just keeps it at maintenance level (with respect to workout days) and says the calorie surplus as a result of not working out a few days a week and keeping the same kcal intake will lead to gains. E.G. 4000kcal needed for maintenance cals (factoring in all daily expenditure), and 3200kcal on days where no workout take place. You workout 5x/wk and off 2, that would yield a 1600kcal surplus for the week.

That's where you were going with this right?

11. Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

That's where you were going with this right?
Yup, up/down depending on goals.

12. Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Oh yeah, I just re-read and forgot to state something...hehe..basically, I meant to ask somewhere in there if there was a good reason for increasing fat and/or protein intake on workout days, rather than just timing the deliveryof those nutrients appropriately.

thx for the response bpmartyr...I knew it wasn't "original", I just wanted to discuss it a litle bit
If I remember correctly. If too little proteins are consumed the body will break down muscle tissue for metabolic needs. Same applies if too many carbs are taken in and not enough protein.

13. I generally only keep my protein intake the same throughout a diet. On training days my carbs are higher(300g) but on non-training days, my fat intake increases by about 10-15g from 45g to 55-60g. I usually increase the fats for satiety purposes but I also like to increase my EFAs because I generally do not feel as drained and to decrease any possible catabolism.

14. I put on fat very easily with a higher carb split and conversely lean mass really easily as long as my protein remains my highest macro. I do the same as you with calories on rest days and such, protein fat basically stay the same but I limit carbs, I just cut out a cup of pasta when I don't train..I get pretty decent results using this method

15. I can only offer that Bobo presented in a thread somewhere on here that it was benificial to change cals around.

I think his reasoning was that you require more cals on leg day than chest day, so why would you eat the same amount.

16. Originally Posted by jmh80
I can only offer that Bobo presented in a thread somewhere on here that it was benificial to change cals around.

I think his reasoning was that you require more cals on leg day than chest day, so why would you eat the same amount.
I remember that thread. He said" Eating the same thing everyday is pointless" The next day I changed my diet but slipped back into my old habits. Now that you reminded me of it again, thats all gonna change real soon.

17. Originally Posted by jmh80
I can only offer that Bobo presented in a thread somewhere on here that it was benificial to change cals around.

I think his reasoning was that you require more cals on leg day than chest day, so why would you eat the same amount.
I am not too sure about this. It does make more sense that on leg day you would burn more kcals compared to chest but I think the whole energy balance equation is more dynamic and encompasses a larger time frame unable to really be boxed into a 24 hour period. I know from my personal experience that I may be up a pound 1 day, down 1 pound the next but to look at the whole picture in proper perspective I need to step back and look at a period of say 30, 60, or 90 days and see where I am at.

The time to replenish glycogen for bodybuilding is more extended than for endurance sports. And the timetable for tissue repair is even further extended. So to look at it in daily thumbnails I feel I can lose sight of the whole picture.

JMO, I am not looking to argue just discuss.

18. Originally Posted by jonny21
I am not too sure about this. It does make more sense that on leg day you would burn more kcals compared to chest but I think the whole energy balance equation is more dynamic and encompasses a larger time frame unable to really be boxed into a 24 hour period. I know from my personal experience that I may be up a pound 1 day, down 1 pound the next but to look at the whole picture in proper perspective I need to step back and look at a period of say 30, 60, or 90 days and see where I am at.

The time to replenish glycogen for bodybuilding is more extended than for endurance sports. And the timetable for tissue repair is even further extended. So to look at it in daily thumbnails I feel I can lose sight of the whole picture.

JMO, I am not looking to argue just discuss.
I have to say that I cannot find anything in there that I don't agree with. Anecdotal evidence from my experience tells me that that my body craves a higher carb intake the next day or two after leg day compared to the actual day I trained them. That is just me however and I deff am no GURU!

19. I agree that fat intake can be kept similiar (could be wrong), but I don't think its a good idea to stick to a protein number. On hard work-out days I generally try to get in at least 25% more protein compared to resting days (specifically after training).

My attitude with protein is that it doesn't hurt to add more. Granted the extra calories are a factor, but protein is much more thermogenic than any other macronutrient, making high-protein foods ideal for bodybuilders/strength athletes.

Just my 2 cents.

20. Has it ever been studied how many extra calories you burn when your muscles are recovering/growing the day AFTER you worked out?

To me every day I do different things like more yard work one day than any other that week, or help a friend move, or redoing my inventory, etc etc etc. Or what about the extra calories you burn when you are more stressed one day than another or sleep 2 hours less that night.

To those who can figure it out more power to you. Personally I would go insane trying to figure out how many more or less carbs/calories to have each day according to what I did that day, didn't do that day or did the day before.

Just my 2 cents.
CROWLER

21. Originally Posted by CROWLER
Has it ever been studied how many extra calories you burn when your muscles are recovering/growing the day AFTER you worked out?

To me every day I do different things like more yard work one day than any other that week, or help a friend move, or redoing my inventory, etc etc etc. Or what about the extra calories you burn when you are more stressed one day than another or sleep 2 hours less that night.

To those who can figure it out more power to you. Personally I would go insane trying to figure out how many more or less carbs/calories to have each day according to what I did that day, didn't do that day or did the day before.

Just my 2 cents.
CROWLER
I always wonder this as well, as said earlier in the thread I am one of those people who eats more on back/leg day then I would arm day, but it seems logical your body would steel need that larger amount of fuel the day after..

22. The reason I'm doing this right now is to avoid the starvation response and avoid plateaus while slowly leaning out. I know from experience that my body will adapt to a change in calorie intake with 2-3 weeks. If I drop the calories to a fixed number everyday it won't be long until I stall out. By increasing the calories on weight training days (3X week) my body doesn't have a chance to adapt to the lower calories on non-weight training days (4X week). Several of the non-weight training days where I lower the carbs and calories I also do morning cardio. I suspect the same thing would work for lean bulking only in reverse - more high days than low days.

I am not even close to being a guru but this is what I've found works for me...

23. Something to think about. The day AFTER I work out hard is when I'm the hungriest and feel like I could eat the world. Ever since adjusting my diet to eat more food (for simplicity I'm going to let you guys figure out what "food" means in comparison to macros) the NEXT day, my body has been much happier. I've noticed recovery and DOMS down significantly, and I've been happier seeing as how I've been eating more when my body seems to require it.
Obviously you can't neglect pre/post nutrition, but think about how your body feels the next day. You guys know.... your body is way more intelligent than any of us are.

Just a thought that sometimes we overlook in trying to break everything down.

24. Yeah, there is definitely an increased metabolic rate after hard workouts, especially legs. Don't know what the exact number of increased calories would be, however.

25. Kwyck, I didn't read this whole thread (sorry), but if you ever heard of Will Brink, he has a book "Muscle Building Nutrition" and he suggest axactly what you said in your first post. Protein and fat stays the same and carbs vary depend on the day. Also he suggests 1g of protein per 1lb, 30% of fat and the rest carbs. It's for bulikng, not dieting though.

26. I'll just add that if we learned anything from the "low GI carbs post-WO" thread it was that protein + carbs was better than that taken post-WO.

Makes sense to me that cals. consumed bofore you WO are better than those cosumed after.

27. I agree with jonny21 in a general manner. What I mean is that I structure my diet around a set calorie level, i.e. maintenance plus or minus, depending on goal. But then I apply the old adage "listen to your body" and if I find I'm hungrier one day, I'll just bump up the cals. If I overdo it, I'll feel it when the next mealtime comes around and I'm less hungry than usual. I keep track of everything I eat in a food journal, so I'm constantly looking at the weekly average calories and adjusting it from there.

I do tend to overeat this way, though, but at least I know I'm not going catabolic. Cuts take longer and sometimes turn into maintain/recomps for a few days until I fix it up. Of course, I'm not dieting for a contest, or I would be more strict, but I find this method works best.

Now, on an outright, serious cut, I believe in carb/calorie-cycling. The reason is that I'm running a deficit and the ups tend to slow or cancel any metabolic downregulation that might occur from a constant deficit. On top of that, my carb cycling doesn't coincide with my training. What I mean is that if one day is a low-calorie day and I end up with a huge deficit because it's a weights & cardio day, so be it. Catabolic? Perhaps, but then again maybe the next day I'm not exercising at all and I'm eating +500 than what I need. Overall I feel this is beneficial. For me.

28. Originally Posted by Grunt76
I agree with jonny21 in a general manner. What I mean is that I structure my diet around a set calorie level, i.e. maintenance plus or minus, depending on goal. But then I apply the old adage "listen to your body" and if I find I'm hungrier one day, I'll just bump up the cals. If I overdo it, I'll feel it when the next mealtime comes around and I'm less hungry than usual. I keep track of everything I eat in a food journal, so I'm constantly looking at the weekly average calories and adjusting it from there.

I do tend to overeat this way, though, but at least I know I'm not going catabolic. Cuts take longer and sometimes turn into maintain/recomps for a few days until I fix it up. Of course, I'm not dieting for a contest, or I would be more strict, but I find this method works best.

Now, on an outright, serious cut, I believe in carb/calorie-cycling. The reason is that I'm running a deficit and the ups tend to slow or cancel any metabolic downregulation that might occur from a constant deficit. On top of that, my carb cycling doesn't coincide with my training. What I mean is that if one day is a low-calorie day and I end up with a huge deficit because it's a weights & cardio day, so be it. Catabolic? Perhaps, but then again maybe the next day I'm not exercising at all and I'm eating +500 than what I need. Overall I feel this is beneficial. For me.
Good post.
I have found this to work well for me as well. I plan my base diet and listen to my body from day to day, to a certain extent. Sometimes my body is really stupid and asks me to eat half of a pepperoni pizza. Gotta draw the line somewhere I do find I feel better overall when allowing for occasional indulgences in cals like some honey & natty pb on whole wheat or an extra scoop of rice with my lunch. My main mistake is not tracking the additional intake but I agree with Grunt on erring on the side of a surplus. I aint no bodybuilder so who cares if I take a little longer on a cut. If anything the extra cals give me the much needed energy to assist with my proclivity for over doing it. If I had it my way I would weight train, do 1 1/2 of cardio and my MA class every single day of the week with no rest. I'm trying to be good, I promise

29. Originally Posted by jmh80
I'll just add that if we learned anything from the "low GI carbs post-WO" thread it was that protein + carbs was better than that taken post-WO.

Makes sense to me that cals. consumed bofore you WO are better than those cosumed after.
Yeah, having plenty of glycogen (and protein, to a lesser degree) freely available will help reduce catabolism caused by the workout. By reducing catabolism, we're building muscle

John Berardi had a formula for something we're all pretty familiar with, a during workout drink. He said 0.4g/kg protein and 0.8g/kg of carbs (some simple) IN a one liter drink. Drink one during, and one immediately after your workout. He made it sound cool, but I'm not going to take it for face value, yet. However, when I get some extra cash and can actually afford to eat and buy supps like protein powder (lol, I'm broke, atm) I'm gonna give it a try. I'd assume that I'd see some noticeable gains after a good 6-8wk trial period. and, for practically no money and 1000kcals of my daily totals, its damn worth a shot! Oh, and he said its crucial that you use teh entire 1L of water, has to be diluted. I'm assuming (but he didn't clarify) its b/c your blood is being transferred from your organs to your muscles and digestion is impaired.

30. Carbs and fats differ daily for me. After getting with DC I learned the way to eat. It goes basically along the way your thinking. I eat my set amount of protein first, then depending on what meal it is I take in fats or carbs until I'm full.

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