Benefits and drawbacks of high insulin

  1. Benefits and drawbacks of high insulin


    I remember reading an article written by either @Danes or @TheSolution (pretty sure) someone'd posted in some thread, in which the writer presented an argument saying that old-school bulking regimens advocating consumption of highly insulinic carbs were wrong, as the consumption of such carbs post workout does not in fact help to result in greater strength or muscular adaptation. The argument was solidly backed with evidence.

    So now I'm in need of further direction. Are there any benefits to inducing more insulin secretion as opposed to less, per quantity of macronutrients consumption?
    I.e. Would consuming 50gs of carbs from haribos with 40gs of protein from cod, be of greater benefit than consuming 50gs of carbs from oats with 40gs of protein from cod?

    Similarly, would consuming something that lowers your blood sugars with a given meal affect your anabolic response to it. Additionally, how significant would he effect be, and would there be any other effects?


    I'd like to explore both the anabolic differences between the two options and any other differences.

    For example, I can't remember exactly what I'd read but I seem to remember a connection between leptin, ghrelin and insulin, with greater increases in insulin being beneficial for your leptin and ghrelin as it affects those two hormones in a manner which means you're satiated for longer. That said, I'm also aware that plummeting insulin later on leads to hunger.

    Could anyone add to the debate?


  2. Iím in for responses.

    I know @The_Old_Guy seems to be knowledgeable and good at finding studies on specific questions like this.
    •   
       

  3. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    The Solution's Avatar

    You are probably referring to this.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15277409
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17617942



    For most of us who train with an intra-workout BCAA or pre-workout meal there is stil food overlap as i touched in the other thread, do we need to spike insulin? absolutely not, food is still digesting, aminos are still present, so do we really need simple carbs post-workout not really..

    Could they be optimal .. sure why not? but remember the total calories/macros if meeting your protein/fat/fiber minimums on a daily basis are optimal for your goal.


    more:

    The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

    Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

    You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.




    More:

    "You do not need to neccessarily "spike" insulin for creatine to be maximally absorbed, but yes insulin is involved with the trasnsport.

    FYI: The insulin and creatine studies I have seen up to this point have involved taking the glucose 30 minutes after the creatine. This may be because the insulin release from the dextrose doesn't entirely coincident with the pharmacokinetics of the creatine absorption.

    Personally I think more consistent waves of insulin may be more anabolic than "spikes" anyway. This is because smoother waves of insulin more than likely affect ATP production more beneficially than "spikes" probably do. ATP is what rebuilds muscles and you want the most efficiency you can get here. I'm saying this because there is a delicate balance here between oxidative phosphorylation and lipogenesis (stimulated by acetyl COA carboxylase from HCO3-) in the mitochondrial in the presence of insulin. This "balance" I am talking about here is different for everyone though. Some people "shunt" over to lipgenesis so much sooner than other people. This has to do with other "global" processes happening in the body."

    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_****319


    The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulinlevels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204


    As far as your questino to the carb source used in that one meal. that wont make a major difference. Your total macros, calories, and minimums (fiber, protein ,fat) in the 24 hour period is what matters. Don't neglect your micronutrients and have a wide variety/balance in your diet

    hence this article by alan aragon the dirt on clean eating
    http://www.simplyshredded.com/resear...an-aragon.html

    "t’s important to keep in mind that protein and fat intake should not be compromised for the sake of fitting discretionary foods into the diet. In other words, make sure discretionary intake doesn’t consistently displace essential micro- & macronutrient needs, and this includes minimum daily protein and fat targets, which vary individually. This may be tough to accept, but alcohol is not an essential nutrient."

    And just in case it wasn’t made clear enough, 10-20% indicates the maximum, not minimum discretionary allotment. If someone strives to consume 0% of calories from any food that’s been processed or refined from its original state, then that’s perfectly fine – as long as this is the person’s genuine preference, and not a painful battle of will. I’d also like to make it clear that there is still plenty of grey area in the study of dietary effects on health.

    The best answer is to let personal preference decide. If we use a 2000 kcal diet as an example, a flat/linear approach would mean that 200-400 kcal per day can come from whatever you want, while meeting essential needs otherwise in the diet. Weekly, this translates to 1400-2800 kcal, depending on the factors I previously discussed. One nonlinear option would be to break the weekly allotment in half, where 2 days per week you indulge in 700-1400 kcal of whatever you want, keeping the remaining 5 days relatively Spartan. Again, there is no universally superior method of distributing the discretionary allotment. The same principle applies to the choice of foods to fulfill it.
    Anabolic Minds Site Rep
    www.anabolicminds.com

  4. Quote Originally Posted by CarneyFolk View Post
    I’m in for responses.

    I know @The_Old_Guy seems to be knowledgeable and good at finding studies on specific questions like this.
    No clue. I don't worry about Insulin, GDAs, etc. Enough Protein and Carbs, over 24hours, is enough for me. I consider it majoring in the minors for *my* recreational/health oriented self. Too much life going on to worry about timing, and of what, to get into that. Do what these other guys say if every possible microgram of muscle matters, and it fits with your life-style.

  5. Was wondering about this myself lately as I've started eating a small amount of high glycemic carbs with my post workout shake to see if it makes any difference(shortbread and things like that) so thanks for the info @The Solution. Think the only benefit I've noticed is I don't crave simple carbs the rest of the night like I used to. The only slight worry I have is does consuming simple carbs after a workout have any potential negative effects on health or body composition?
    •   
       

  6. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    The Solution's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    Was wondering about this myself lately as I've started eating a small amount of high glycemic carbs with my post workout shake to see if it makes any difference(shortbread and things like that) so thanks for the info @The Solution. Think the only benefit I've noticed is I don't crave simple carbs the rest of the night like I used to. The only slight worry I have is does consuming simple carbs after a workout have any potential negative effects on health or body composition?
    too black and white of a question
    how many simple carbs in that sitting
    what is your total carb intake
    how often are you doing this.
    what sources are you using
    are you meeting protein/fat/fiber minimums

    I mean its easy to ask questions, but there are way too many variables to just say. Can i do X and Y?

    For most people they are overthinking the smallest details which is over complication at its finest which will make a .00001% in the big picture of their long term success.

    If your carbs are low (Say sub 100-150g) i would opt all from complex carbs or peri-workout powder carbs. If you have more flexibility and eat 200-300-400g of carbs daily then higher GI Carbs may be easier to digest and beneficial on your GI Tract without bloating yourself off stuffing your face with oats, veggies, and potatoes.

    as stated in the article i linked above... apply the 80-20% rule. People overthink such small factors which in the big picture make the most minimal difference.
    Anabolic Minds Site Rep
    www.anabolicminds.com

  7. Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    Was wondering about this myself lately as I've started eating a small amount of high glycemic carbs with my post workout shake to see if it makes any difference(shortbread and things like that) so thanks for the info @The Solution. Think the only benefit I've noticed is I don't crave simple carbs the rest of the night like I used to. The only slight worry I have is does consuming simple carbs after a workout have any potential negative effects on health or body composition?
    '...I don't crave simple carbs the rest of the night like I used to' I've noticed the same, I don't have much of a sweet tooth after some simple carbs.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    too black and white of a question
    how many simple carbs in that sitting
    what is your total carb intake
    how often are you doing this.
    what sources are you using
    are you meeting protein/fat/fiber minimums

    I mean its easy to ask questions, but there are way too many variables to just say. Can i do X and Y?

    For most people they are overthinking the smallest details which is over complication at its finest which will make a .00001% in the big picture of their long term success.

    If your carbs are low (Say sub 100-150g) i would opt all from complex carbs or peri-workout powder carbs. If you have more flexibility and eat 200-300-400g of carbs daily then higher GI Carbs may be easier to digest and beneficial on your GI Tract without bloating yourself off stuffing your face with oats, veggies, and potatoes.

    as stated in the article i linked above... apply the 80-20% rule. People overthink such small factors which in the big picture make the most minimal difference.
    Prob about 40g post workout 5 days a week. Rest of macros during the day are roughly 290g carbs, 240g protein, 100g fat from eggs, whole grain bread, chicken, tuna, brown rice, Greek yoghurt, almonds/peanut butter plus fruit n veg. Around 3100-200 kcal. I just have set meals I can swap in or out that are roughly the same.

    Would ya say my fat and protein intake are a wee bit high? Didn't recalculate my macros after cutting just added in more carbs plus more nuts and Greek yoghurt which has kept protein the same and added in more fats than I realised.

    TBH I would drop the post w/o high GI carbs altogether if there's no benefit to it just for my teeths sake cos I hate the dentist lol

  9. Quote Originally Posted by u_e_s_i View Post
    '...I don't crave simple carbs the rest of the night like I used to' I've noticed the same, I don't have much of a sweet tooth after some simple carbs.
    I started doing it near the end of a cut and it made a huge difference to being able to control the sugar cravings I was getting.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by The_Old_Guy View Post
    No clue. I don't worry about Insulin, GDAs, etc. Enough Protein and Carbs, over 24hours, is enough for me. I consider it majoring in the minors for *my* recreational/health oriented self. Too much life going on to worry about timing, and of what, to get into that. Do what these other guys say if every possible microgram of muscle matters, and it fits with your life-style.
    Iím interested in the topic because Iím curious how eating only 1 or 2 huge meals a day effects what someones body is able to do with the food. I would rather have my time back then micromanage a redic nutritional protocol and slave in the kitchen. And like you said, to each their own. Thanks for your input.
  11. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    The Solution's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    Prob about 40g post workout 5 days a week. Rest of macros during the day are roughly 290g carbs, 240g protein, 100g fat from eggs, whole grain bread, chicken, tuna, brown rice, Greek yoghurt, almonds/peanut butter plus fruit n veg. Around 3100-200 kcal. I just have set meals I can swap in or out that are roughly the same.
    Thats totally fine then. Some people are on like 1500-1700 kcals and all their carbs come from high gi carbs, and they dont meet fat/protein/fiber minimums. IN your case your fine. It wont make a difference if those 40g are high GI or low GI with how much wiggle room and considering your other food choices.

    again... micromanaging and nit picking at this point.
    Anabolic Minds Site Rep
    www.anabolicminds.com

  12. @The Solution. Thanks for your very detailed response. It answered my question.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by CarneyFolk View Post
    I’m interested in the topic because I’m curious how eating only 1 or 2 huge meals a day effects what someones body is able to do with the food. I would rather have my time back then micromanage a redic nutritional protocol and slave in the kitchen. And like you said, to each their own. Thanks for your input.
    Look up Ramadan studies and Alternate Day Fasting studies.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Good and bad effects of high Estrogen in a man
    By darkblue1 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-07-2008, 11:48 AM
  2. Dangers and effects of high E2
    By corndog in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-18-2008, 11:15 AM
  3. pros and cons of a high protien low carb diet yearound
    By keater824 in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-07-2008, 07:39 AM
  4. Highs and Lows of ur Superdrol Cycle
    By SrT4u2Nv in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 11-14-2006, 08:54 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-03-2005, 05:30 PM
Log in
Log in