Intermittent fasting?

Vikingbro

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Hey all has anyone tried IM whilst bodybuilding? Looking to get into it for weight loss initially then maintenance whilst adding a little muscle. Has anyone experience with adding muscle in a shorter eating window I.e 8 hours eating and 16 hours fasting? Interested in your thoughts about catabolism in the 16 hours of not eating or does the natural higher HGH release by the body offset this? And can as much muscle be added if all other variables were the same I.e macros, training etc. Thanks in advance for your responses.
 
mickc1965

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Interested in the responses you get on this as have just started to try and lean bulk in the last 5 weeks but still seem to be losing weight at a caloric intake where I would previously have been in surplus, raised it to body weight x18 and weight is slowly climbing but need to see what the average increase is over a few weeks as my weight fluctuates quite a lot despite eating the same foods day to day.

Below weights are my weekly average, body weight multiple is food intake less calories from cardio

10/08 - 167.0
17/08 - 167.8 (+0.8 at x17)
24/08 - 166.6 (-1.2 at x15.5)
31/08 - 166.5 (-0.1 at x17)
07/09 - 166.5 (0 at x17)
14/09 - 167.6 (+1.1 at x18) *

* The last week was a big weight fluctuation (166.2, 165.8, 169.6, 170.8, 168.2, 167.4, 165.2) from a serious food binge after a drinking session on the Saturday afternoon.
 
Vikingbro

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Interested in the responses you get on this as have just started to try and lean bulk in the last 5 weeks but still seem to be losing weight at a caloric intake where I would previously have been in surplus, raised it to body weight x18 and weight is slowly climbing but need to see what the average increase is over a few weeks as my weight fluctuates quite a lot despite eating the same foods day to day.

Below weights are my weekly average, body weight multiple is food intake less calories from cardio

10/08 - 167.0
17/08 - 167.8 (+0.8 at x17)
24/08 - 166.6 (-1.2 at x15.5)
31/08 - 166.5 (-0.1 at x17)
07/09 - 166.5 (0 at x17)
14/09 - 167.6 (+1.1 at x18) *

* The last week was a big weight fluctuation (166.2, 165.8, 169.6, 170.8, 168.2, 167.4, 165.2) from a serious food binge after a drinking session on the Saturday afternoon.
Interesting mate thanks. Are you doing IM at the moment as this could cause the weight loss? That's one of the biggest side effects of this diet.
 
mickc1965

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Yes I am currently doing Intermittent Fasting (approx 6 months), more for the supposed health benefits rather than weight loss after researching on behalf of the missus as she is suffering from Metastatic Pancreatic Cancer
 
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Hey all has anyone tried IM whilst bodybuilding? Looking to get into it for weight loss initially then maintenance whilst adding a little muscle. Has anyone experience with adding muscle in a shorter eating window I.e 8 hours eating and 16 hours fasting? Interested in your thoughts about catabolism in the 16 hours of not eating or does the natural higher HGH release by the body offset this? And can as much muscle be added if all other variables were the same I.e macros, training etc. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Are you going to fast daily?

I've used IF for a little less than a year. Both off season and pre contest.

I've never considered it much of a tool for fat-loss. I don't let the window of fasting effect my intake for the day. If I'm eating 3,200 kcal's and fasting 16hrs, it's no different then spreading that 3,200 kcal's out over a longer period.

Digestion, blood glucose maintenance, and a trying to lower systemic inflammation is what I'm using it for. I add in one or two 14-16 hr fasts weekly.
Biggest issue I could see with someone using it daily (for growth) would be your ability to consume enough calories in that window. For me...3,200 calories in 8-10hr ain't happening! Lol not through turkey and white rice anyway.


It has worked really well for me in controlling my blood glucose....inflammation --I can't really tell...and digestion--nothing noticeable.

For me it's worth it for just the BG maintenance. It's important to me how well I'm partitioning my food. I check my BG a few times a week.
 
mickc1965

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I am fasting daily (16:8) and currently consuming ~3000 kcals
 
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Yes I am currently doing Intermittent Fasting (approx 6 months), more for the supposed health benefits rather than weight loss after researching on behalf of the missus as she is suffering from Metastatic Pancreatic Cancer
Sorry to hear this brother. Hoping the best for you both.
 
celliem

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I've been counting macros for months but started IF a month ago steady 8 on, 16 off weekdays. 12 on and 12 off weekends. I've lost nearly 4% BF in 3 weeks. I know I've gained muscle cause I've only lost 11.5 lbs. At first, I felt a little sluggish as my body adapted. But now... I feel fantastic. My body looks leaner and I've seen an increase in my gains. When you train your body to do this, it lowers your insulin levels so you burn fat instead of muscle. I absolutely love IF.
 
celliem

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Yes I am currently doing Intermittent Fasting (approx 6 months), more for the supposed health benefits rather than weight loss after researching on behalf of the missus as she is suffering from Metastatic Pancreatic Cancer
Prayers and <3 for you both.
 
Vikingbro

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I've been counting macros for months but started IF a month ago steady 8 on, 16 off weekdays. 12 on and 12 off weekends. I've lost nearly 4% BF in 3 weeks. I know I've gained muscle cause I've only lost 11.5 lbs. At first, I felt a little sluggish as my body adapted. But now... I feel fantastic. My body looks leaner and I've seen an increase in my gains. When you train your body to do this, it lowers your insulin levels so you burn fat instead of muscle. I absolutely love IF.
Awesome thanks mate
 
Vikingbro

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Yes I am currently doing Intermittent Fasting (approx 6 months), more for the supposed health benefits rather than weight loss after researching on behalf of the missus as she is suffering from Metastatic Pancreatic Cancer
Thanks for your answer and I'm sorry to hear about your partner brother
 
Vikingbro

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Are you going to fast daily?

I've used IF for a little less than a year. Both off season and pre contest.

I've never considered it much of a tool for fat-loss. I don't let the window of fasting effect my intake for the day. If I'm eating 3,200 kcal's and fasting 16hrs, it's no different then spreading that 3,200 kcal's out over a longer period.

Digestion, blood glucose maintenance, and a trying to lower systemic inflammation is what I'm using it for. I add in one or two 14-16 hr fasts weekly.
Biggest issue I could see with someone using it daily (for growth) would be your ability to consume enough calories in that window. For me...3,200 calories in 8-10hr ain't happening! Lol not through turkey and white rice anyway.


It has worked really well for me in controlling my blood glucose....inflammation --I can't really tell...and digestion--nothing noticeable.

For me it's worth it for just the BG maintenance. It's important to me how well I'm partitioning my food. I check my BG a few times a week.
In answer to your question I'm going to fast every day 8/16. This is mainly to cut before my next cycle. I'm not expecting massive gains in the muscle department whilst doing this, I just wanted to know if gains were possible doing this, albeit slow gains, and more importantly no catabolism?
 
mickc1965

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In respect of catabolism, what time of the day do you train?
 
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In answer to your question I'm going to fast every day 8/16. This is mainly to cut before my next cycle. I'm not expecting massive gains in the muscle department whilst doing this, I just wanted to know if gains were possible doing this, albeit slow gains, and more importantly no catabolism?
Look into AMPK (I'm not that smart). It's an enzyme that will give us most of the benefits from
Fasting. AMPK will inhibit MPS which is where some confusion might come from but lean tissue catabolism takes a lot... I don't think fasting 16hr is going to cause any substantial loss in muscle given adequate protein consumption during the 8hrs.

I think it's a lot harder to lose muscle than we think it is. Our body has ways of auto regulating. There's energy systems in place that'll help prevent muscle catabolism in that short of a time frame.
 
Vikingbro

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In respect of catabolism, what time of the day do you train?
So this is my daily plan. I eat daily between 11am and 7pm. I work 4 days on, 4 days off and use the gym at work. On my work days I do cardio fasted in the morning and eat first meal followed by weightlifting at 4ish. Quick protein shake afterwards then a meal before 7. On non work days I don't do cardio but lift weights in the morning followed by protein shake then lunch and dinner. So essentially I'm eating 2 meals a day.
 
Vikingbro

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Look into AMPK (I'm not that smart). It's an enzyme that will give us most of the benefits from
Fasting. AMPK will inhibit MPS which is where some confusion might come from but lean tissue catabolism takes a lot... I don't think fasting 16hr is going to cause any substantial loss in muscle given adequate protein consumption during the 8hrs.

I think it's a lot harder to lose muscle than we think it is. Our body has ways of auto regulating. There's energy systems in place that'll help prevent muscle catabolism in that short of a time frame.
Thanks for your answer. Do you think this applies if I do fasted cardio in the morning too?
 
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Thanks for your answer. Do you think this applies if I do fasted cardio in the morning too?
Yes! If you're going to fast get the benefit of fasted cardio (remember no amino! They'll break the fast). Just make sure you hit your protein requirements and you'll be good to go
 
jswain34

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Aminos dont break the fast. Martin Burkheim (spelling might be off), the creator of Lean Gains IF which is the main fasting protocol people uae, specifically states that anything under 50 cals can be consumed without any significant effect on the fasted state. Eg: bcaas pre workout, bcaas post workout before your feeding window starts, a splash of milk in your coffee, etc. I know leucine is insulinogenic, but the spike will be so transient it really should have a negligible effect on the fasted state. I dont know if the site is still up, but the leangains.com site used to be an awesome resource of information for the leangains fasting protocol.
 
mickc1965

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Technically it does break the fast but the benefit of BCAAs around AM training vastly outweighs any negative impact it has
 
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I think it all depends on what constitutes breaking the fast. I just don't see any reason why someone would take it 50 calories worth of aminos.... it's a waste. No ones losing muscle that fast
 
jswain34

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Did I say "drink 50 calories worth of aminos"? Or did I say the creator of Lean Gains IF protocol, which is the 16/8 protocol 90% of people think of when they hear the term "IF" has said that anything less than 50 calories (within reason, see the examples I already listed in my last post. Obviously you dont want to eat an apple with 12 grams of carbs, etc) has a negligible effect on the fasted state? If you have BCAAs, workout, and drink 5-10g of bcaas hourly until you break the fast with whole foods or a shake, you are still considered to be in the "fasted state" (for the lean gains 16/8 protocol) until that first whole food meal. Yes, technically, the intake of calories breaks the fasted state, but as I already mentioned the calories from bcaas are minimal and insulin spike from leucine will be so short lived that, in the LG 16/8 protocol, you are still considered to be within your fasted window.
 
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Did I say "drink 50 calories worth of aminos"? Or did I say the creator of Lean Gains IF protocol, which is the 16/8 protocol 90% of people think of when they hear the term "IF" has said that anything less than 50 calories (within reason, see the examples I already listed in my last post. Obviously you dont want to eat an apple with 12 grams of carbs, etc) has a negligible effect on the fasted state? If you have BCAAs, workout, and drink 5-10g of bcaas hourly until you break the fast with whole foods or a shake, you are still considered to be in the "fasted state" (for the lean gains 16/8 protocol) until that first whole food meal. Yes, technically, the intake of calories breaks the fasted state, but as I already mentioned the calories from bcaas are minimal and insulin spike from leucine will be so short lived that, in the LG 16/8 protocol, you are still considered to be within your fasted window.
Lol did I say you're wrong or did I say
"I think it comes down to what constitutes "breaking a fast" for any one person"
On AM people might think of some LG protocol. Real world lol not even close to what most would think of.
 
jswain34

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Lol did I say you're wrong or did I say
"I think it comes down to what constitutes "breaking a fast" for any one person"
On AM people might think of some LG protocol. Real world lol not even close to what most would think of.
You are correct, you didnt. I just assumed thats what you were saying since you used the same "50 calories" and talked about taking bcaas which you recommended against earlier. I didnt see where else you would associate those two things aside from my post, but thats my bad for assuming.

Considering LG 16/8 is what popularized the entire IF diet strategy, I think you are incorrect in saying that the majority of people dont think of 16/8 fasting (which is the bases of the LG protocol) when they hear the term "IF". But theres no sense in debating that nor does it really help the OP lol.
 
Vikingbro

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Guys both of you raise valid points above and debate and discussion is good and what I wanted. I'm not going to use BCAAs though, unless I feel I really need to as from what I have gathered, given the short time frames of not eating, there will be little to no catabolism
 
Rikrodgers

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With the time you're training (during your feeding window) you shouldn't need to consume BCAAs the same as if you were training early morning, fasted.

Personally, I've done IF for about 4 years now and wouldn't change it for the world. It keeps me lean and has totally changed my thoughts on food and approach to eating.
I love food and eating lots of it, so if I practice IF I can eat larger, but fewer meals in my window. On training days I eat about 3400 cals and then about 2800 on a rest day. When I really dial this in and also carb cycle too, I can get much leaner in a shorter space of time, whilst still maintaining/building a bit of muscle. I never do cardio per se either ;)

I train first thing at 6:30am, drink my BCAAs (xtend or similar with zero cals) with creatine HCL and then continue to fast until 1pm. I then have 2 main meals and a large snack (eggs, cashews and ham usually) during this time, until 9pm; so a 16:8 approach for me.

If I need to lose water weight or a bit of BF really fast then I'll sometimes fast for 20-22 hours on a rest day. Actually, this can be a lot of fun when you're used to it - plenty of water and a couple of black coffees in the am (I don't drink caffeine after 1pm) and by 4/5pm your head is clear, you don't feel hungry and you feel great! Almost a bit high in a way :)

Using the above approach I've found that I can consistently have "diet-free" weekends, as long as I at least do a 12:12 fast:feed on Saturday/Sunday
 
Vikingbro

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With the time you're training (during your feeding window) you shouldn't need to consume BCAAs the same as if you were training early morning, fasted.

Personally, I've done IF for about 4 years now and wouldn't change it for the world. It keeps me lean and has totally changed my thoughts on food and approach to eating.
I love food and eating lots of it, so if I practice IF I can eat larger, but fewer meals in my window. On training days I eat about 3400 cals and then about 2800 on a rest day. When I really dial this in and also carb cycle too, I can get much leaner in a shorter space of time, whilst still maintaining/building a bit of muscle. I never do cardio per se either ;)

I train first thing at 6:30am, drink my BCAAs (xtend or similar with zero cals) with creatine HCL and then continue to fast until 1pm. I then have 2 main meals and a large snack (eggs, cashews and ham usually) during this time, until 9pm; so a 16:8 approach for me.

If I need to lose water weight or a bit of BF really fast then I'll sometimes fast for 20-22 hours on a rest day. Actually, this can be a lot of fun when you're used to it - plenty of water and a couple of black coffees in the am (I don't drink caffeine after 1pm) and by 4/5pm your head is clear, you don't feel hungry and you feel great! Almost a bit high in a way :)

Using the above approach I've found that I can consistently have "diet-free" weekends, as long as I at least do a 12:12 fast:feed on Saturday/Sunday
Thanks. Your approach seems very similar to mine. Do you not take in a protein shake after your morning workout? You mentioned just BCAAs. How many grams do you take? I'm interested as I like to extend my fast sometimes to an 18/6 and may use BCAAs like you to cover me till I break the fast. Incidentally I also do a full days fast like you every couple of weeks.
 
Rikrodgers

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No protein shakes for me after training, just BCAAs as they're zero cal and although technically leucine breaks the fast, it's insulinogenic effect isn't as great as a whey shake would be...
Depending on which brand I'm using it'll be 5-10g with creatine HCL and glutamine after training and then maybe another 5-10g with glutamine at 11/11:30 ish. I usually skip the second dose though.

Hope this helps!
 
Vikingbro

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No protein shakes for me after training, just BCAAs as they're zero cal and although technically leucine breaks the fast, it's insulinogenic effect isn't as great as a whey shake would be...
Depending on which brand I'm using it'll be 5-10g with creatine HCL and glutamine after training and then maybe another 5-10g with glutamine at 11/11:30 ish. I usually skip the second dose though.

Hope this helps!
Yes thanks very helpful
 
Rikrodgers

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Xtend are supposed to be zero cals and the ones I'm currently using from The Protein Works are nothing but BCAAs, so also zero cal.
4cals won't break the fast anyway ;)
 
mickc1965

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4 kcals per g would if taking more than 12.5g
 
celliem

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Thanks for your answer. Do you think this applies if I do fasted cardio in the morning too?
When I do fasted cardio in the AM, I take 2 servings of BCAAs before& during so it inhibits MPS and dose with another serving of BCAAs every other hour or so until I break my fast. The days I don't do fasted, I drink 1 serving of BCAAs in the AM and 1 every few hours.
 
celliem

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Yes! If you're going to fast get the benefit of fasted cardio (remember no amino! They'll break the fast). Just make sure you hit your protein requirements and you'll be good to go
Aminos don't break fasts when it's 0 cal. Leucine doesn't do much to the insulin.
 
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That is incorrect
BCAAs are 6 calories per gram, and when sipped or taken in an all day fashion, contribute heavily to both an insulin response and gluconeogenesis. Sipping on BCAA’s takes away from MPS (Muscle Protein Synthesis) as levels never get a chance to reach refractory stages before being spiked again The net effect is increased insulin and blood sugar.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2969169/

It's wrong to think your not breaking your fast because in their free form, BCAAs have btw 5-6 Calories per gram and Glutamine as about 3 Calories per gram. In essence, you are drinking a protein powder that is made up of 4 amino acids instead of 20 and has been pre digested for you.

You could even monitor your Blood Glucose (BG) levels by taking the results after meals or several doses of BCAA's and see your BG will rise. Showing there is signs of small insulin spikes from the dosings. Weather you want to use them or not is totally up to you, but they do contain calories, so you can use as you please. But if you think your doing fasted cardio while drinking a BCAA beverage that is far from true because it does have caloric value. The FDA labels them without because there is a small amount (6 calories/serving) so if you intake 20-30g of bcaa's you can do the math 120-180 kcals while you think your not breaking your fast you really are. So you need to add the calories up

The reason you think your bcaa is 0 calories is because by law the FDA can label them as that yet they still do hold a caloric value. BCAA's are free forms of protein which do contain calories.

Aminos don't break fasts when it's 0 cal. Leucine doesn't do much to the insulin.
 

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Thanks. Your approach seems very similar to mine. Do you not take in a protein shake after your morning workout? You mentioned just BCAAs. How many grams do you take? I'm interested as I like to extend my fast sometimes to an 18/6 and may use BCAAs like you to cover me till I break the fast. Incidentally I also do a full days fast like you every couple of weeks.
i'm not positive but i believe there have been a lot of studies done showing BCAAs break a fast. i run 16x8 right now and do cardio in the morning before work fasted and then workout at lunch fasted again and eat right after. i havent really noticed a performance dip and have been doing it for almost two months now.
 
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I've been taking HMB during my fast (16/8). It ramps up mTor without affecting AMPK, seems to boost GH and IGF1 and it is also beneficial to stack with leucine for added benefit. I'd post links but can't, all can be found in Suppversity and Ergolog.
 
CarneyFolk

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I run between 16/8 and 20/4 depending on what I have going on that day. I’ve found IF to increase my concentration, focus, and energy levels.

I introduced 3g HMB about two weeks ago (hadn’t heard about it) to my 6g 4:1:1 BCAAs, 1g ALCAR, 2g tyrosine, and 3g Citrulline Mal pre work out. I’ve noticed slightly reduced DOMS.

Since lucine only converts to HMB at 5% and HMB is very anti-catabolic, I think it’s over looked/ under ratted for this style of training. bonbon mentioned two of the places I went before I decided to add this supp. And at 12 cents a day, it just makes sense even if it only does half of what the studies show.
 
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IF has beyond allowing some people to better sustain a net caloric deficit for the goal of weight or fat loss. Is it more convenient for some people to eat less frequently? Yes. Is it more sustainable for some people to enjoy larger meals when they eat? Yes. Can it be a simpler, less meticulous way toward a net caloric deficit for some people to include fasting days in a given ad libitum week? Yes. Is IF the magic, universal solution for every dieter? Hell no.

Per the recent claims in various herpaderp vids & other media from gurus & quacks -- does IF have special effects on body comp "buhcuz increased growth hormone"? No. The growth hormone increase as a result of IF is merely the body's stress/survival response to the physiologically 'sensed' threat of famine/starvation. It's the equivalent of the emergency lights of a building turning on when the main power is down. I've said this before, but some folks fail to grasp that skipping meals does not have a net anabolic effect. Maximizing muscle growth is not going to come from nothing but breathing and prayers all day.

Lastly, has the WEIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE in human research shown special health effects of IF compared to more linear deficits? Overall, the answer is no. Have IF studies on rodents shown cardiometabolic benefits? Yes. Have these benefits panned out in the body of human research comparing IF vs linear patterns? Sorry, but no. In the largest systematic review of IF research to-date, Seimon et al compared the effects of intermittent energy restriction (IER) to continuous energy restriction (CER). They found that overall, the two diet types resulted in “apparently equivalent outcomes” in terms of bodyweight reduction and body composition change. In addition, neither IER or CER was superior to the other at improving glucose control/insulin sensitivity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26384657

In another recent systematic review & meta-analysis, this time on long-term outcomes in IF vs linear dieting, Headland et al concluded the following: "...neither intermittent or continuous energy restriction being superior with respect to weight loss. [...] Blood lipid concentrations, glucose, and insulin were not altered by intermittent energy expenditure in values greater than those seen with continuous energy restriction." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27338458

The take-away: if you prefer to practice some variant of IF and are successfully making or maintaining progress on it, then good for you, stick with it. If you prefer a more conventional or linear dietary pattern with a higher meal frequency and are doing well on it - good for you, stick with that, because the claims of IF's supposed *superiority* do not have strong scientific support.
 
Jag

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I have just started IF again after a year or so away from it and looking back I haven't felt or trained better since then.

Losing fat/weight should NOT be the only way people judge the IF diet/lifestyle. I have experienced numerous health benefits aside from fat loss.

My knee, which has bothered me for months now, is feeling better in less than a week. Just to get out of bed, off my seat or out of the car etc. without preparing for it is worth it. So IF definitely has some anti-inflammatory properties. This alone would keep me on it.

For me, who had to cut back somewhere on calories, not eating till lunchtime or beyond is perfect. I'm not hungry anyway except if I'm just sitting around bored. And knowing my meals are restricted to only a few I tend to eat much better as well.

I'm 53 and sometimes have so much physical AND mental energy at work when I'm fasted it's almost like I have to consciously pull on the reigns to slow up a bit and harness the energy as I can get outta control pretty quickly if something or someone upsets me. Unfortunately I have a job where the potential for that to happen is quite high!!! This can actually be frustrating when you are unaware. In a fed state I'm much calmer. Having a small portion of protein and some salad for lunch helps bring me back down. Not quite sure if that has a name or not (Maybe "Fasting Rage") but something I noticed. Plus it gives me something to work on.

Training before work helps keep this under control but that's only twice a week.

BCAA's really help with fasted training for me. This time I've added Glutamine as well and feel fantastic while working out and get a great pump. I did know about the calories in the aminos and did experiment but found, hands down, my workouts were much better with them. I also have a STROOOOONG black coffee.

Training volume is down, training days are down, bodyfat is coming down, strength on the few exercises I do is up and so is my drive and enthusiasm to train. Oh, and food bill is down!!! :D
 

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