Ketogenic?

[Victoross]

Anybody try KETO?
Experiences?
Good?
Bad?

 

[Afi140]

It's good for fat loss but not the end all be all. I think the keto salt craze in supplements is re-elevating its stature. I personally like it but not the only diet I will use when cutting. Try it out and see if you like it. Days 4-7 are pretty rough so be prepared.

 

[AntM1564]

Try it and see if it works for you. Some people can function and perform without carbs and others need carbs to function. I personally do not like keto based diets and think carbs should be in all diets. Carbs have plenty of benefits. This does not only include performance and recovery, but also hormonal benefits as well.

https://biotest.t-nation.com/articles/5-scientific-reasons-to-eat-carbs

https://drjohnrusin.com/low-carb-diets-dont-work/

 

[Victoross]

Thank you

 

[John Smeton]

My brother does true keto which is like 70 % fat, 25 protein, 5 % carbs, although i wouldn't be surprised if its more like 40 % protein because he eats a lot of cheese and meats. Maybe not though bc he eats nuts and avocados a good bit. He is really lean. Bloodwork, he just got some this week and we went over it, everythings great.

I personally wouldnt do it because for muscle I think carbohydrates are important for energy and keeping them glycogen stores a little full to full, but too over filled obviously, or it goes to fat. Ive been eating lower carbs than I have been since last year, year before, and Im much happier with my waist, and definition.

 

[lukinosnake]

I do keto once per year, before summer time. It's the only diet that spare muscle mass, does not lower my volume and weights and really make me look hard as f*ck. I normally do 12-8 weeks with a carb reffed every 4 weeks (just for pure pleasure). I also incorporate cardio when I cut, however it almost make it feel unnecessary. I also figured out that it is worth it ONLY during cutting. I also figured out the best supplement to incorporate for those goals, after tons of try.

 

[jp21590]

About to reach the end of my fourth week this upcoming Sunday. So far I've lost 2.5%BF (14.6 - 12.1) while eating the same amount of calories that I was prior to switching over to Keto - following a 70f 25p 5c macro break down. Energy level is through the roof. Definitely plan on running keto long term. Best part is, I don't feel like I'm "dieting" and am experiencing the best results I have ever experienced with any other methods.

 

[lukinosnake]

About to reach the end of my fourth week this upcoming Sunday. So far I've lost 2.5%BF (14.6 - 12.1) while eating the same amount of calories that I was prior to switching over to Keto - following a 70f 25p 5c macro break down. Energy level is through the roof. Definitely plan on running keto long term. Best part is, I don't feel like I'm "dieting" and am experiencing the best results I have ever experienced with any other methods.

That's nice to hear man, but I highly advise you to do not stay permanently in Keto. Regardless what many people may say, it becomes unhealthy in the long run. As per my experience the best is when using it for 3-4 months max per year to get the best of both worlds.

 

[jp21590]

That's nice to hear man, but I highly advise you to do not stay permanently in Keto. Regardless what many people may say, it becomes unhealthy in the long run. As per my experience the best is when using it for 3-4 months max per year to get the best of both worlds.

My initial plan was to get down to 8-10%BF maintain for a bit and transition back into eating a higher percentage of carbs and drop the fat. Possibly take a paleo approach until my body is used to eating carbs again. Would this be an approach you'd suggest?

 

[lukinosnake]

What I normally do, when moving from bulk diet to keto is very simple. I make you an example to understand.
When I clean bulk, I will stay around 3200 kcal (200g pro, 400g carbs, 70g Fat All fluctuating about 10% extra max.)
The month before to start, I would stay whiting "maintenance" level, which for me are around 2800kcal, removing the difference in kcal from carbs only, therefore bringing them to 200g per day.

Once I finish the month, I jump straight into pure keto. However, the first 2 weeks of it I stay at 2800kcal. After that, I reduce the kcal depending on results and energy levels.
Anyway, I successufully stay around 2100-2200 kcal for 8 weeks out of 12. This diet still allowed me to keep almost strength and reps almost exactly the same as when I am bulking.

Remember: no more than a reefed every 4 weeks. When you do it, calculate the carbs very high and good quality one. Lower fat and lower protein.
I do 600g carbs (brown pasta, fruits, rice, potatoes, oats) 100g protein and 50g fat.

I am not sure how it would work with Paleo diet considering the high amount of simple sugars you can get, depending on how your diet is set up.
At least for me, this is the best I ever reached after 4 years of try and errors.

 

[banjobounce]

There is a recent shr podcast featuring dr. Mauro di pasquale. He elaborates further upon the keto diet, and I think his insight is phenomenal. All I can suggest is that you check it out if you are interested in keto.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Keto is great for fat loss, not optimal for bodybuilding. It's absolutely a great tool in bursts, a couple weeks here or there or during a mini cut to drop some body fat and resensitize to carbs.

 

[John Smeton]

I'm doing ketogenic today, no carbs other than vegetables, or tomatoes, which technically is a fruit but haha

I 'm taking off training today so doing the ketogenic diet for a day helps keep me leaner.

btw yes I know im not into ketosis, I just utilize this diet on off days to keep me leaner

 

[lukinosnake]

Keto is great for fat loss, not optimal for bodybuilding. It's absolutely a great tool in bursts, a couple weeks here or there or during a mini cut to drop some body fat and resensitize to carbs.

I do not see the poit for such a short period of time. It's not keto is there is no ketosis.Also, the first 2 weeks its very hard on cravings, due to the fact you are not in ketosis. If you do not get there, there is not appetite suppression and you may bunch back fatter than before. I do not play too much with insulin

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I do not see the poit for such a short period of time. It's not keto is there is no ketosis.Also, the first 2 weeks its very hard on cravings, due to the fact you are not in ketosis. If you do not get there, there is not appetite suppression and you may bunch back fatter than before. I do not play too much with insulin

Well it all depends on the individual. If they are very obese then a long term keto diet may be optimal. If they are athletes then the medical keto diet is not optimal for performance and body composition. I personally have done many keto based diets. True keto, ckd, tkd, Peri workout carbs on training days, the anbolic diet. I personally found myself in keto in three days time. Utilizing certain techniques, sometimes a little less. No matter what as long as I kept fats high I had no cravings at all past day one, sometimes mental cravings caused by my environment (see a commercial, family dinner with dessert etc). For me two weeks at the start of a diet if I had a little more bodyfat than I wanted or if I wanted to quickly drop seem fat before an event it definitely works. I've done a month before and that was good too, but I found it negatively impacted my training. That is the deal breaker for me. None the less it all personal.

 

[Pinggolfee96]

any diet is subjective to ones opinion/ preference, unless health concerns are involved.

 

[John Smeton]

ketogenic diet is shown from a health perspective with studies to be a great health enhancer, and prevent diseases. If someone has cancer, It literally shrinks cancer cells bc cancer cells have no glucose to feed on. My cousin had cancer and died over a year ago , she was 29. She had so many chemotherapy treatments done, it broke down her immune system, went down to 90 lbs and later passed..

 

[Wedgylx]

I ran keto for 3-4 months......

- Great way to lose fat, maybe the best. If you can stick to it, you're golden

- Its going to be hard to change your view on proteins. To be truly Keto, you're talking being below 10% protein. Most bodybuilders are used to 40% protein....this is a tough transition. I didn't feel like I was losing any muscle, though, even with lesser protein. I was realistically getting around 15%-20% protein, so even my diet wasn't "true keto". They say to keep servings below 25g for protein, as too much can cause insulin spike and knock you out of ketosis. This isn't bunk, I measured my ketones and more often than not when my ketone levels went down it was due to a large protein meal.

- Cheating is much less forgiving on a Keto diet. It may take you a few days or more to get "into ketosis". One cheat can knock out out, and it can take a couple days to get back in. This means that little cheat meal that didn't affect you on 40-40-20 will have a much bigger impact. You really need to be about 100% dedicated to keep it going.

- Alcohol can be a big problem. I found I could have 2, sometimes 3 glasses of dry red wine (depending what I was eating with it) and not have a problem. Even 2 beers, though, would knock me out of ketosis. I never played with hard alcohol much during that time, I just stuck to red wine.

- You need to be in the 80+% for fat intake. This is going to mean 200g for most people - its really really hard. I had to do the butter/MCT oil in my coffee to get to my numbers. Its delicious, and the MCT definitely gives the coffee a bit more "bang"! It wreaked havoc on my GI system using the MCT, but my ketone levels were much higher when using it. Also, MCT can help you recover from a cheat or mistake quicker.

For me, a modified version was easier to run continuously. I run like 40% protein, 40% fat, 20% carbs. Its not ketosis, but the fat-loss is very close and I find its easier to get back on track/recover if I let myself cheat. I can also take in higher doses of protein, which I feel is better for adding muscle.

 

[Wedgylx]

That's nice to hear man, but I highly advise you to do not stay permanently in Keto. Regardless what many people may say, it becomes unhealthy in the long run. As per my experience the best is when using it for 3-4 months max per year to get the best of both worlds.

why do you think this? I'm not arguing, just curious.

 

[John Smeton]

I ran keto for 3-4 months......

- Great way to lose fat, maybe the best. If you can stick to it, you're golden

- Its going to be hard to change your view on proteins. To be truly Keto, you're talking being below 10% protein. Most bodybuilders are used to 40% protein....this is a tough transition. I didn't feel like I was losing any muscle, though, even with lesser protein. I was realistically getting around 15%-20% protein, so even my diet wasn't "true keto". They say to keep servings below 25g for protein, as too much can cause insulin spike and knock you out of ketosis. This isn't bunk, I measured my ketones and more often than not when my ketone levels went down it was due to a large protein meal.

- Cheating is much less forgiving on a Keto diet. It may take you a few days or more to get "into ketosis". One cheat can knock out out, and it can take a couple days to get back in. This means that little cheat meal that didn't affect you on 40-40-20 will have a much bigger impact. You really need to be about 100% dedicated to keep it going.

- Alcohol can be a big problem. I found I could have 2, sometimes 3 glasses of dry red wine (depending what I was eating with it) and not have a problem. Even 2 beers, though, would knock me out of ketosis. I never played with hard alcohol much during that time, I just stuck to red wine.

- You need to be in the 80+% for fat intake. This is going to mean 200g for most people - its really really hard. I had to do the butter/MCT oil in my coffee to get to my numbers. Its delicious, and the MCT definitely gives the coffee a bit more "bang"! It wreaked havoc on my GI system using the MCT, but my ketone levels were much higher when using it. Also, MCT can help you recover from a cheat or mistake quicker.

For me, a modified version was easier to run continuously. I run like 40% protein, 40% fat, 20% carbs. Its not ketosis, but the fat-loss is very close and I find its easier to get back on track/recover if I let myself cheat. I can also take in higher doses of protein, which I feel is better for adding muscle.

With all the meats ,eggs and cheese protein is going to be higher than 10 %.

 

[Wedgylx]

With all the meats ,eggs and cheese protein is going to be higher than 10 %.

True "keto" is like 90% fat. If you're not hitting it, you're not keto. At best it's "modified keto" like I ran. I still think it's better this way, for sure

 

[Beta]

Subbed for info

 

[Wedgylx]

Dom D'agostino is one of the leading experts in keto research.

He just had a podcast with Joe Rogan this week. He's had podcasts with Rhonda Patrick, Tim Ferriss. I highly suggest you listen if you're looking to learn more about the rules/benefits of keto.

For me personally, it not for me. But r definitely works.

 

[tyga tyga]

The one long term medical study I've read was on "clinically" obese individuals. The prescribed macro breakdown was;
1g protein per LBM
20% saturated fat
80% poly/mono fat
>30g of cho

GNG doesn't happen immediately

"Cheating" on keto( depending on how long you've been adapted) doesn't take long to fall back into ketosis also depends on if you have a transient amount around your workout (it'll clear by the time your finished working out or shortly after, think TKD) You may look more "watery" from cheating for the first day or two but it'll wash off.

Your common ketogenic diet is muscle sparring so not losing muscle isn't a surprise.

Keto Is great for short term quick loss if you can adhere to the dieting strategy. Ill use a variation of it when its time to lean out (have in the past and had great success with it)

**I don't read to much into keto because i tend to follow flexible dieting (80/20 rule with a cheat meal a week), unless I need to lean out like I mentioned above** so, always do your own research and take internet advice with a grain of salt.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Just like Tyga said above when I need to drop some body fat I use a keto approach. It's a great tool for fat loss. The technicalities of how much protein to fat %s I'm sure has it's place, but anecdotally simply replacing all carbs with fats as your energy source has worked for almost everyone I've known.

I also want to add that with some advanced supplentation there are absolutely ways to drop into keto quicker.

 

[symbianblack]

Libido?

 

[Wimsicle]

Why does everyone thing 'true keto' is low as fk protein??? It doesn't have to be. To be in ketosis you need to be low carb, less than 30g net specifically unless fat adapted for a very long time. Stop researching ketosis for medical issues (epilepsy, obese obese people) unless you are indeed treating one and research nutritional ketosis (proper protein).

Especially when cutting, why consume excess fat when you want to burn the own fat on your body?

Eat 0.8-1g per LBM, enough fat to keep energy levels up and create the rest of your calories, and then keep carbs below 30net. It's super simple and doesn't have to be low protein.

Fat is a lever when it comes to ketosis. To lose weigh you lower the fat macro, to gain weight you raise the fat macro (and potentially protein to 1.2-1.5g per LBM). I can almost garunteed results will be better with adequate instead of low protein.

Reaching higher ketone readings does also not mean more fat loss. In fact, the higher the ketone readings, typically means you are consuming too much fat and not using up the fat on your body. You'll end up peeing more out rather than using for energy (in turn, peeing out dietary fat instead of burning body fat)..

Just some food for thought.

 

[Wedgylx]

Why does everyone thing 'true keto' is low as fk protein??? It doesn't have to be. To be in ketosis you need to be low carb, less than 30g net specifically unless fat adapted for a very long time. Stop researching ketosis for medical issues (epilepsy, obese obese people) unless you are indeed treating one and research nutritional ketosis (proper protein).

Especially when cutting, why consume excess fat when you want to burn the own fat on your body?

Eat 0.8-1g per LBM, enough fat to keep energy levels up and create the rest of your calories, and then keep carbs below 30net. It's super simple and doesn't have to be low protein.

Fat is a lever when it comes to ketosis. To lose weigh you lower the fat macro, to gain weight you raise the fat macro (and potentially protein to 1.2-1.5g per LBM). I can almost garunteed results will be better with adequate instead of low protein.

Reaching higher ketone readings does also not mean more fat loss. In fact, the higher the ketone readings, typically means you are consuming too much fat and not using up the fat on your body. You'll end up peeing more out rather than using for energy (in turn, peeing out dietary fat instead of burning body fat)..

Just some food for thought.

The rationale the "experts" would quote is that large servings of protein will spike insulin and get you out of ketosis. They would also site that ketones are very "muscle sparing", so that eating an abundance of protein would still be just extra calories.

with that being said, I don't necessarily disagree with your statements. To me, low carb with high protein is going to still be very productive in fat loss. But technically the procedure you're referring to (and I also use) would be "modified atkins" versus Ketosis

The only thing I disagree with is keeping fat low. I've lost 20+lb this year eating about 100g of natural fats per day, and I've never felt better while on a "cut". I stay far fuller, and I'd be willing to bet my test levels are way higher.

 

[Wimsicle]

The rationale the "experts" would quote is that large servings of protein will spike insulin and get you out of ketosis. They would also site that ketones are very "muscle sparing", so that eating an abundance of protein would still be just extra calories.

with that being said, I don't necessarily disagree with your statements. To me, low carb with high protein is going to still be very productive in fat loss. But technically the procedure you're referring to (and I also use) would be "modified atkins" versus Ketosis

The only thing I disagree with is keeping fat low. I've lost 20+lb this year eating about 100g of natural fats per day, and I've never felt better while on a "cut". I stay far fuller, and I'd be willing to bet my test levels are way higher.

I didn't say keep fat low, I but it shouldn't be 75% of your macros.

I ate 180g protein, 120g fat, 20g net carbs a day for over 6 months. Lost 40lb and never once fell out of ketosis, other than when I began a TKD, I'd fall out for less than an hour when I took 15-30g dextrose pwo.

I think it all depends who the 'experts' you listen too is.

Plus, gng doesn't happen whenever it wants to. It has a timeline in a sense, that eating protein doesn't speed up or slow down.

Im not advocating to eat low fat to do a PSMF. Being in ketosis is keto... And eating less than 30g net carbs, you'll be in ketosis. Lol

 

[Wedgylx]

I didn't say keep fat low, I but it shouldn't be 75% of your macros.

I ate 180g protein, 120g fat, 20g net carbs a day for over 6 months. Lost 40lb and never once fell out of ketosis, other than when I began a TKD, I'd fall out for less than an hour when I took 15-30g dextrose pwo.

I think it all depends who the 'experts' you listen too is.

Plus, gng doesn't happen whenever it wants to. It has a timeline in a sense, that eating protein doesn't speed up or slow down.

Im not advocating to eat low fat to do a PSMF. Being in ketosis is keto... And eating less than 30g net carbs, you'll be in ketosis. Lol

Not saying I disagree, personally I don't run Keto any longer, just trying to answer why they say to keep the protein low

 

[skinnybones]

Sub'd

I've been doing just under 100g of carbs ed for the last few days. I had no idea it was part of a Keto diet. I have been dropping some weight tho....interesting

 

[edsd]

I love keto, although I've had similar success just running a low cab/high fat diet. I'm doing a high fat keto style diet right now with intermittent fasting. I tend to stay fuller longer on high fats and don't have the cravings.

 

[Whacked]

Wim and Wedge

Low protein is advisable on a true ketogenic diet b/c the body will use protein as glucose via gluconeogenesis; thereby keeping you out of ketosis (theoretically).

Ketosis (running on ketones) is the objective of a ketogenic diet of course. Well, the energy substrate required to make the ketogenic diet “work” is fat.

***Another requisite also mandates removing carbs and other glucose substrates (>10% protein) to allow the body to become fat-adapted; convert to a fat-burning machine.

A low carb diet and a ketogenic diet are worlds apart.

Both work for fat loss but are not the same.

Powerlifter Dr Dom D’Agostino; PhD of FSU has proven time and time again that a true ketogenic diet is anti-catabolic. Yes, even at 10% protein intake.

For optimal bb’ing, I think a modified low carb diet or strategically-timed diet is superior.

For overall health and disease prevention, a ketogenic diet is nothing short of amazing.