Macros vs Calories

[Dustin07]

here's a topic that's been beat to death but I'd like to hear peoples real life experiences.

If you had a 2,000 calorie budget would you notice a difference in your body composition if you ate:

50g fat
193g carbs
193g pro

vs

100g fat
137.5 carbs
137.5 pro

vs

65g fat
200g carbs
150g pro

?

The reason I ask is because I do see a difference in my own body. higher fat does not yield to cutting. but I seem to be able to eat almost an unlimited amount of clean carbs (such as rice) without gaining bodyfat. I have a friend who is right on the money with the caloric target, but not losing weight and I believe its because the macros are fat heavy. fat and carb actually, with protein being the lowest number.

 

[Admin]

None of those is really high fat. You would need to 60-75% of your macros to really fall into the high fat territory where the increased fat burning will occur (due to ketosis)....for most that is.

 

[Admin]

And yes, I notice a big difference due to age and blood chemistry. High or moderate carbs and i blow up.

 

[Nac]

Depends on training too, I find. Doing alot of weekly volume, I notice a significant difference in performance (and muscle fullness) in as little as 50gm CHO per day, ie eating 150gm vs 200gm.

 

[Dustin07]

And yes, I notice a big difference due to age and blood chemistry. High or moderate carbs and i blow up.

see that's interesting to me. I'm the opposite. high carbs seems to help me lean up even with what seems like a caloric surplus.

 

[Young Gotti]

i prefer low carbs and higher fats as well....if for nothing else I just feel better in my day to day life that way

I saw a war going on against ppl who don't like carbs yesterday and thought it was pretty funny....at this point I'm more interested in feeling good than feeling like crap for results

 

[Dustin07]

I have a friend who says he feels much better on higher fat, low carb diets. and he's done well with dropping weight with that approach when he needed to. I've tried keto a few times with the same results every time. My mood drops, my energy drops, and I feel gross. I have just found that lower fat and higher macros really sends my body into overdrive with energy, happiness, and even metabolic efficiency.

someone I know is actually doing some reading on brain damage, the anterior cingulate gyrus, compulsivity, and how carbs can be related and its kinda funny that i'm falling into her text book readings as someone who probably would do better with carbs.

 

[Nac]

i prefer low carbs and higher fats as well....if for nothing else I just feel better in my day to day life that way

I saw a war going on against ppl who don't like carbs yesterday and thought it was pretty funny....at this point I'm more interested in feeling good than feeling like crap for results

At the end of the day, I know Aragon and Dieter etc would agree with you in your choice. We may or may not be talking of the same facebook phenomenon here, but this is my take anyway.

From what Ive seen, Aragon takes exception to keto/LC proponent claims that their dietary protocol is scientifically superior to a more traditional macro intake. He attacks the science/logic used to just justify those claims.

Where it starts falling apart is when the fanboys on either side get involved. They start making universal claims that their protocol is superior for health/result reasons, and so should be practiced by everyone else.

Again, from what Ive seen, Alan only ever prescribes "listening to the science" and following whatever protocol you find best for you. The fanboys just take it to a whole other level of potato and, well, fanaticism.

 

[Admin]

I have a friend who says he feels much better on higher fat, low carb diets. and he's done well with dropping weight with that approach when he needed to. I've tried keto a few times with the same results every time. My mood drops, my energy drops, and I feel gross. I have just found that lower fat and higher macros really sends my body into overdrive with energy, happiness, and even metabolic efficiency.

someone I know is actually doing some reading on brain damage, the anterior cingulate gyrus, compulsivity, and how carbs can be related and its kinda funny that i'm falling into her text book readings as someone who probably would do better with carbs.

I feel so much better in low carb. I find most people who don't feel good are simply not consuming enough fat, protein is too high, and they are not replenishing sodium and other trace minerals. On any keto diet you must take in extra sodium, potassium, magnesiun and calcium while getting at least 65% from fats. You can't go half way without feeling like **** and once fully keto adapted, its wonderful.....Although there are some that simply don't react to higher fats for whatever reason...but you generally know that within the first 24-48 hours with massive GI distress.

I'm been following Dr. D'Agostino and Also Rhonda Patrick in some of their research on keto and anti cancer, enhanced brain function and metabolic advantages of keto.

 

[Admin]

At the end of the day, I know Aragon and Dieter etc would agree with you in your choice. We may or may not be talking of the same facebook phenomenon here, but this is my take anyway.

From what Ive seen, Aragon takes exception to keto/LC proponent claims that their dietary protocol is scientifically superior to a more traditional macro intake. He attacks the science/logic used to just justify those claims.

Where it starts falling apart is when the fanboys on either side get involved. They start making universal claims that their protocol is superior for health/result reasons, and so should be practiced by everyone else.

Again, from what Ive seen, Alan only ever prescribes "listening to the science" and following whatever protocol you find best for you. The fanboys just take it to a whole other level of potato and, well, fanaticism.

There is plenty of science. If you have the time, here a nice 2 hour video that summarizes a lot of the benefits.

 

[Nac]

There is plenty of science. If you have the time, here a nice 2 hour video that summarizes a lot of the benefits.

Oh look, I know theres good science on either side. Its unfortunate that alot of Aragons facebook debates are with laymen lol.

Incidentally, your previous post mentioned cancer...there was a decent discussion between Brad Dieter (if I recall correctly) and a keto guy regarding ketos affects on cancer. Dieter claimed to have done his thesis on certain cancers and ketones.

Cliffs of the discussion were that it is a crude generalisation (on the keto guys part) to claim that ketogenic diets will improve cancer outcomes; there are some cancer types where ketones worsen the condition.

I wish I could remember the keto research guy who was involved with the keto claims. Some science dude.

 

[Admin]

Oh look, I know theres good science on either side. Its unfortunate that alot of Aragons facebook debates are with laymen lol.

Incidentally, your previous post mentioned cancer...there was a decent discussion between Brad Dieter (if I recall correctly) and a keto guy regarding ketos affects on cancer. Dieter claimed to have done his thesis on certain cancers and ketones.

Cliffs of the discussion were that it is a crude generalisation (on the keto guys part) to claim that ketogenic diets will improve cancer outcomes; there are some cancer types where ketones worsen the condition.

I wish I could remember the keto research guy who was involved with the keto claims. Some science dude.

Thats because you can't really group "cancer" into one large group. I know D'Agostino's main research is the reduction in the activation of cancer cells...ie, we all have pre cancerous cells and its when and if they are activated. I know there has been a very large population that responded well to a keto diet that had prostate cancer. The anti seizure effects are simply medical fact.

I like Alan. He is open to changing his mind, as he did when we debated about post workout nutrition over a decade ago.

I think keto diets have a place for older populations (35+). I think that is where they shine, especially with insulin, glucose and inflammation control but they need to followed correctly which most people simply don't do. They don't consume enough greens (i get 6-7 cups daily), they don't consume enough fats of the healthy variety and they think they can eat processed meats all day long.

I don't think they help younger populations as much and I also don't think they build muscle as well as a traditional diet.

 

[Dustin07]

I think keto diets have a place for older populations (35+). I think that is where they shine, especially with insulin, glucose and inflammation control but they need to followed correctly which most people simply don't do. They don't consume enough greens (i get 6-7 cups daily), they don't consume enough fats of the healthy variety and they think they can eat processed meats all day long.
.

I saw keto do really really well for two people who were polar opposites of each other. one was about 23yrs old and the other was closing in on 50 or 51 I think. they both loved it and swore by it. I tried it a handful of times and it always left me feeling very gross. I even felt like my skin was reacting, I felt more oily, etc.

but having known first hand that it worked so well for some people I know that my experiences won't match everyone elses.

 

[Admin]

I saw keto do really really well for two people who were polar opposites of each other. one was about 23yrs old and the other was closing in on 50 or 51 I think. they both loved it and swore by it. I tried it a handful of times and it always left me feeling very gross. I even felt like my skin was reacting, I felt more oily, etc.

but having known first hand that it worked so well for some people I know that my experiences won't match everyone elses.

Definitely could be one of those that don't react well to higher fats. It happens...just like those who blow up with moderate or higher carbs. Thats why nutrition is such a personal thing for many. I think the reason so many keto advocates get so excited is they finally have something that helps them achieve their goals while feeling better than they ever have. And many times, its by taking a leap of faith because you won't see many doctors recommending it because they are still trained to think saturated fats, or any fats, cause heart attacks. Then you have those who market it and try to make money off it....and even though you will find nuggets of truth, they take it beyond "science" and make us all look bad. lol

 

[Young Gotti]

At the end of the day, I know Aragon and Dieter etc would agree with you in your choice. We may or may not be talking of the same facebook phenomenon here, but this is my take anyway.

From what Ive seen, Aragon takes exception to keto/LC proponent claims that their dietary protocol is scientifically superior to a more traditional macro intake. He attacks the science/logic used to just justify those claims.

Where it starts falling apart is when the fanboys on either side get involved. They start making universal claims that their protocol is superior for health/result reasons, and so should be practiced by everyone else.

Again, from what Ive seen, Alan only ever prescribes "listening to the science" and following whatever protocol you find best for you. The fanboys just take it to a whole other level of potato and, well, fanaticism.

Yeah but I think Alan saying "whatever protocol you find best" is a cop out for him to play both sides of the fence when it's convenient for him....now he may not like the science behind keto and that's fine, but it seems like he does whatever he can to post good or bad articles to get his crowd all riled up to march for him and what he believes in

I've done keto but don't usually follow a keto diet....I eat carbs, I just don't go nearly as high as some of the diets I've seen around the internet

The comments on his stuff though are just hilarious

 

[Nac]

Definitely could be one of those that don't react well to higher fats. It happens...just like those who blow up with moderate or higher carbs. Thats why nutrition is such a personal thing for many. I think the reason so many keto advocates get so excited is they finally have something that helps them achieve their goals while feeling better than they ever have. And many times, its by taking a leap of faith because you won't see many doctors recommending it because they are still trained to think saturated fats, or any fats, cause heart attacks. Then you have those who market it and try to make money off it....and even though you will find nuggets of truth, they take it beyond "science" and make us all look bad. lol

Any thoughts on Taubes anti sugar crusade

 

[Young Gotti]

Any thoughts on Taubes anti sugar crusade

did you listen to him on rogan?

 

[Nac]

did you listen to him on rogan?

Nah the facebook comments have put me off lol. Is it total cringe?

 

[Young Gotti]

Nah the facebook comments have put me off lol. Is it total cringe?

I enjoyed it....I don't necessarily follow or totally buy into what he says but the history if accurate was pretty interesting....and if what he's saying about non eating sugar groups in the world and get introduced to sugar blow up with obesity and diabetes...that's pretty incredible if true.....plus the argonites going crazy made things pretty funny

But I like a lot of Rogans podcasts except I don't do the comedians anymore

 

[Nac]

I enjoyed it....I don't necessarily follow or totally buy into what he says but the history if accurate was pretty interesting....and if what he's saying about non eating sugar groups in the world and get introduced to sugar blow up with obesity and diabetes...that's pretty incredible if true.....plus the argonites going crazy made things pretty funny

But I like a lot of Rogans podcasts except I don't do the comedians anymore

Im of the opinion that, just because someone is an expert in field A but a layman in field B, doesnt mean they cannot offer insight (scientific hypotheses/criticism) in field B. Im with Popper: in an open society "source" is irrelevant in regards to valid criticism.

Lots of guys write Taubes off based on this fallacy (he's an engineer by trade).

However, I think he does over estimate his authority in field B (nutrition). Offering descriptions of the world is one thing; running seminars and writing books that also make prescriptions recommending how we should live is taking the p1ss, and I empathise with Alan and Lyle there.

And yeah, really wanna see Rogan interviewing James Hetfield.

EDIT: are you familiar with Aragons alternative hypothesis re obesity? If he is right, sugar is a red herring.

 

[Young Gotti]

Im of the opinion that, just because someone is an expert in field A but a layman in field B, doesnt mean they cannot offer insight (scientific hypotheses/criticism) in field B. Im with Popper: in an open society "source" is irrelevant in regards to valid criticism.

Lots of guys write Taubes off based on this fallacy (he's an engineer by trade).

However, I think he does over estimate his authority in field B (nutrition). Offering descriptions of the world is one thing; running seminars and writing books that also make prescriptions recommending how we should live is taking the p1ss, and I empathise with Alan and Lyle there.

And yeah, really wanna see Rogan interviewing James Hetfield.

EDIT: are you familiar with Aragons alternative hypothesis re obesity? If he is right, sugar is a red herring.

I'm not familiar with it...care to post a link?

 

[macedog24]

And yes, I notice a big difference due to age and blood chemistry. High or moderate carbs and i blow up.

yes . this goes for me also I keep my protein high, carbs lower. and healthy fats.

 

[macedog24]

calories start to go up really when your carbs are high.

 

[macedog24]

but on a cheat day or moderate carb day I still try and keep protein up

 

[Nac]

Gawd, the more I read Aragon, Schoenfeld and Lyle Mcd on facebook the more I see the blatant hypocrisy and double standards. Some of the other guys come across more reasonable, though (Dieter is mellow as fuk and highly intelligent, as is Krieger).

 

[macedog24]

for example today so far. I've had some fish and chicken fresh spinach.

 

[macedog24]

 

[macedog24]

I try and get more carbs in the day time like my Greek yogurt or eggs oatmeal etc. but didn't have any with me. and short on cash so I have to adjust

 

[Dustin07]

I love that app. I've been using it for about a week now and its crazy convenient.

so to help me make your calories/macros all relevant, what is your current height/weight, what is your goal that you're trying to accomplish (physique, weight gain, strength, etc?).

 

[Dustin07]

This was monday, I missed my calories by way of fat grams mostly with what i'm shooting for.

 

[macedog24]

This was monday, I missed my calories by way of fat grams mostly with what i'm shooting for.


View attachment 144746

Did you set those goals, or were they set that way. you can adjust them in case you did t know

 

[Dustin07]

Did you set those goals, or were they set that way. you can adjust them in case you did t know

it was based upon a slow weight gain attempt.

 

[macedog24]

it was based upon a slow weight gain attempt.

ok . just checking .

 

[Dustin07]

I seem to need very few calories to maintain, much fewer than I would have thought. maybe age is playing a role there. But I wanted to try to slow gain, and as lean as possible. so far after two weeks i'm liking the results.

 

[macedog24]

I seem to need very few calories to maintain, much fewer than I would have thought. maybe age is playing a role there. But I wanted to try to slow gain, and as lean as possible. so far after two weeks i'm liking the results.

great are you running a log?

 

[Dustin07]

since 2011

 

[macedog24]

since 2011

well throw me a link I will follow

 

[Dustin07]

this was when I transferred over to AM
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/273191-infinity-beyond.html#post5086038

 

[rodherm]

Definitely could be one of those that don't react well to higher fats. It happens...just like those who blow up with moderate or higher carbs. Thats why nutrition is such a personal thing for many. I think the reason so many keto advocates get so excited is they finally have something that helps them achieve their goals while feeling better than they ever have. And many times, its by taking a leap of faith because you won't see many doctors recommending it because they are still trained to think saturated fats, or any fats, cause heart attacks. Then you have those who market it and try to make money off it....and even though you will find nuggets of truth, they take it beyond "science" and make us all look bad. lol

I hear you and see lots of rationale in the logic but how do you manage to keep fats tht high? Might also be a bit of a mental blocker in my case since as you say we are initially thought to believe that fats are bad for your health.

I started my diet back in mid October after many years of not looking after myself and struggling to like myself in the mirror wearing almost anything. Since then I have lost +20kgs and I still have 5-8kgs more to go. When I started I did a lot of reading and the intention of following a Keto diet (eating meats, full eggs, cheese, bacon, etc) is what kept me going. Started down this path but after a week or so I realised it was not possible for me to est that many fats, probably as I said part of a mental paradigma. Therefore turned my diet into a high protein, moderate fats (mostly coming from the protein itself) and very low carbs. It is working wonders for me but I am really intrigued to trying Keto! Just simply looks like I am unae to achieve it...?

 

[Admin]

I hear you and see lots of rationale in the logic but how do you manage to keep fats tht high? Might also be a bit of a mental blocker in my case since as you say we are initially thought to believe that fats are bad for your health.

I started my diet back in mid October after many years of not looking after myself and struggling to like myself in the mirror wearing almost anything. Since then I have lost +20kgs and I still have 5-8kgs more to go. When I started I did a lot of reading and the intention of following a Keto diet (eating meats, full eggs, cheese, bacon, etc) is what kept me going. Started down this path but after a week or so I realised it was not possible for me to est that many fats, probably as I said part of a mental paradigma. Therefore turned my diet into a high protein, moderate fats (mostly coming from the protein itself) and very low carbs. It is working wonders for me but I am really intrigued to trying Keto! Just simply looks like I am unae to achieve it...?

Adding fats is easy. Almond Butter to protein shakes. Unsalted Grass Fed Butter and Coconut/MCT Oil in my coffee (at least two a day for me). There are a million ways to add fats.

 

[rodherm]

Adding fats is easy. Almond Butter to protein shakes. Unsalted Grass Fed Butter and Coconut/MCT Oil in my coffee (at least two a day for me). There are a million ways to add fats.

Truebut then you calories go up to the sky and is no longer possible to remain in a 500 calories deficit, right?

 

[AntM1564]

Truebut then you calories go up to the sky and is no longer possible to remain in a 500 calories deficit, right?

If your body requires more calories to maintain, then your 500 deficit would increase as well.

For example, if you previously needed 3000 cals/day to maintain, then 2500 would be a 500 cal deficit. Now, if you increase muscle, activity, whatever the case and you need 3500 cals to maintain, you would need 300 0 cals now to be at the same 500 deficit.

 

[rodherm]

That is true but only achieved over time by increasing muse right? All things being equal is 'easier' to exceed calories on high fat than on high protein. At least in my very own personal experience.

 

[Admin]

Truebut then you calories go up to the sky and is no longer possible to remain in a 500 calories deficit, right?

No. It's easy.

 

[Admin]

That is true but only achieved over time by increasing muse right? All things being equal is 'easier' to exceed calories on high fat than on high protein. At least in my very own personal experience.

Ketosis kills your appetite.

 

[rodherm]

No. It's easy.

Guess that would depend on each person, but well get your point and I might need to do some more reading. If you have any great links please share.

Thanks

 

[Dustin07]

Guess that would depend on each person, but well get your point and I might need to do some more reading. If you have any great links please share.

Thanks

for the most part I do believe that people generally have an easier time feeling satiated on a ketogenic diet. the higher protein/fat diet is more filling than a high carb diet. For me, I just felt gross on keto. it was like I could feel fat and grease seeping through my pores. I feel healthier on a low fat diet with healthy carb choices and my body responds better.