Topic of the Week: Post Workout - High GI Carbs? Yes or No

[Driven2lift]

So AM, I know a lot of you play around extensively with carbohydrate techniques,

How many of you like high GI post work out?

Why or why not?

 

[Driven2lift]

Myself I do enjoy the majority of my carbohydrates peri-workout and most High GI sources fall into this area so its more for convenience.

I say why not, if its convenient and may offer better results from enhanced partitioning compared to other times.



Do I need high GI post?
No

But if I'm eating them I'll eat it then

 

[Shasow]

Cutting no, just protein for a few hours then reintroduce carbs min 6 hours latter.

Bulking yes, why? Just cos.... ?

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

I tried it when cutting and normally, follow brostopanni's workout plans then on my own. What I noticed is that when eating a banana or skittles post that I had more energy faster. W/o the post sugars I felt a bit tired (like usual at end of workout) but still regained my energy, it just took longer.

Honestly does not matter IMO

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I am very carb sensitive and i find that staying away from high gi carbs altogether benefits me greatly. If i am going to have any at all, i would have them post workout. This would however depend on the diet, if i am going with anabolic diet or similar, high gi carb def have thier place.

 

[Rodja]

I use them since I usually lift for 2-3 hours and I start infra.

 

[Driven2lift]

I use them since I usually lift for 2-3 hours and I start infra.

HBCD?

 

[john.patterson]

I agree with what others said. I'm not usually a big fan of high glycemic carbs, other than sugars from fruit while i'm on dieting. I typically have a whey shake and a banana post workout, and if I do decide to have sugary high glycemic carbs I try to time them so they fall post workout. I incorporate more higher glycemic carbs on refeed days, but I usually consume them post workout as well

 

[Driven2lift]

I know we have some pop-tart fanatics on board too lol

 

[kdubson14]

80-120g waxy maize post wo for me. While cutting too.

 

[Admin]

Why do people consume waxy maize again?

 

[bb333]

My personal trainer,
in bulk period
the best carbohydrates I did eat in the post work,
was 70 GR, Vitargo.
1gr x 1 kg of body mass.

During the cut,
I have always recommended,
500 ml of pineapple juice (so high GI), during work.
Nothing in the postwork.

Currently I'm cut,
I'm less burdened in the postwork.
Sometimes, in bulk, after eating, I felt sleepy.

 

[Rodja]

HBCD?

Just Gatorade. I've noticed zero difference since switching back from HBCD or Vitargo.

 

[booneman77]

Since I switched to early am training, I havent been having any carbs around my workouts except maybe an occasional late one on the weekend... Honestly havent noticed much of a difference. Even going no/super low carb lately hasn't hampered my recovery much.... That said, I love (and feel better about) eating a ton of cereal pwo when bulking or refeeding ha.

 

[bolt10]

I drink Gatorade during and eat something sugary after. Come at me bros.

 

[Admin]

I drink Gatorade during and eat something sugary after. Come at me bros.

You're wrong.

 

[bolt10]

You're wrong.

Sorry.

 

[Admin]

Sorry.

 

[JoeHT]

Old school: dextro + malto + iso/whey

 

[kdubson14]

Why do people consume waxy maize again?

Bro science, bro.

It doesn't upset my stomach like other liquid carb sources, it's cheap, and the high amylopectin should, in theory, help take advantage of whatever glut4 translocation that's present post-exercise.

 

[Admin]

Bro science, bro.

It doesn't upset my stomach like other liquid carb sources, it's cheap, and the high amylopectin should, in theory, help take advantage of whatever glut4 translocation that's present post-exercise.

Thats like saying you need a sledgehammer to open a door...when its already open.

GLUT4 is increased by exercise alone..with or without carbs. So its sort of pointless unless you are working out for 2-3 hours with high volume, depletion type exercises.

 

[kdubson14]

Thats like saying you need a sledgehammer to open a door...when its already open.

GLUT4 is increased by exercise alone..with or without carbs. So its sort of pointless unless you are working out for 2-3 hours with high volume, depletion type exercises.

That's actually exactly what I'm doing fasted, in the afternoons

And yes, glut4 translocation results from exercise alone, but my understanding is that this effect is rather short lived, so I go with a liquid carb source over a whole meal

 

[Admin]

That's actually exactly what I'm doing fasted, in the afternoons

Interesting.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

That's actually exactly what I'm doing fasted, in the afternoons

And yes, glut4 translocation results from exercise alone, but my understanding is that this effect is rather short lived, so I go with a liquid carb source over a whole meal

Where did you find information saying GLUT4 increased expression is short lived? Genuinely interested.

 

[booneman77]

This may have turned into a legitimately exciting... gasp... discussion

 

[kdubson14]

Where did you find information saying GLUT4 increased expression is short lived? Genuinely interested.

It's not the expression of GLUT4 thats short lived, but the acute translocation from cytoplasm to cell membrane via muscle contraction.

I'll look for sources tonight as I'm currently restricted to mobile access. Comcast has been dropping more than half thebpackets sent the last two days.

 

[Hyde]

Waxy Maize tears my gut UP. I bloat all to hell and I think it tastes like trash, so that's that for me.

Intra>post for me -with gatorade intra for longer/more demanding sessions. Just seems to improve endurance over the session. Karbolyn & HBCD work fine too, but for the relatively modest volume I accomplish in my style of training it just doesn't seem to matter. I train for 2 hour usually, but the first hour is more strength focused so really only an hour of volume-focused work really. I could see it being more relevant for a bigger guy that's really busting some volume for an extended period, but I'm not that guy.

 

[kdubson14]

NoAddedHmones

I did a quick scan of my research archive but came up blank. I'll do a more thorough search after exams and the holiday. Cheers

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Oh the good ole "cant find it at the moment eh bro!?!"

:D

...subbed">I did a quick scan of my research archive but came up blank. I'll do a more thorough search after exams and the holiday. Cheers[/QUOTE]

Oh the good ole "cant find it at the moment eh bro!?!"

:D

...subbed

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Oh the good ole "cant find it at the moment eh bro!?!"



...subbed

That old chestnut... all good kdubson14 will keep an eye out on this thread.

 

[kdubson14]

Haha if nothing else the search for it made me realize I need to do a better job organizing my files


I can't find the full text for some reason but this measured contraction stimulated GLUT4 translocation in the absence of insulin

"Plasma membrane glucose transporter number was elevated 1.8- and 1.6-fold immediately and 30 min after exercise, although facilitated D-glucose transport in plasma membrane vesicles was elevated 4- and 1.8-fold immediately and 30 min after exercise, respectively. By 2 h after exercise both glucose transporter number and transport activity had returned to nonexercised control values"

Goodyear LJ, Hirshman MF, King PA, Horton ED, Thompson CM, Horton ES. Skeletal muscle plasma membrane glucose transport and glucose transporters after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1990;68(1):193-8.


Searching for more

 

[kdubson14]

This is worth a read too

Regulation of Muscle Glycogen Repletion, Muscle Protein Synthesis and Repair Following Exercise

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Haha if nothing else the search for it made me realize I need to do a better job organizing my files


I can't find the full text for some reason but this measured contraction stimulated GLUT4 translocation in the absence of insulin

"Plasma membrane glucose transporter number was elevated 1.8- and 1.6-fold immediately and 30 min after exercise, although facilitated D-glucose transport in plasma membrane vesicles was elevated 4- and 1.8-fold immediately and 30 min after exercise, respectively. By 2 h after exercise both glucose transporter number and transport activity had returned to nonexercised control values"

Goodyear LJ, Hirshman MF, King PA, Horton ED, Thompson CM, Horton ES. Skeletal muscle plasma membrane glucose transport and glucose transporters after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1990;68(1):193-8.


Searching for more

Interesting, but end of the day i remember i am not a rat. Are you a rat?

Thanks again for taking the time to post these.

 

[kdubson14]

Of course you can't extrapolate directly from rats to humans but if you chose to disregard all research in the murine model... there wouldn't be much left to look at

 

[Jiigzz]

^filter for biopsies.

http://m.diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/48/5/1192.short

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/10683091

http://m.ajpendo.physiology.org/content/274/1/E89.short

Glut4 translocation is indeed rapidly diminished after exercise but it is replaced by an increase in muscle cell insulin sensitivity which has the same effect; rapid glucose uptake which lasts for longer periods post exercise (hours).

The need for high high GI carbs post workout is not needed UNLESS people require it for blood sugar levels or sanity reasons.

From a scientific standpoint, we can say it may not matter as far as the evidence so far suggests, but from a personal standpoint it may matter greatly.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I go sort of a carb backloading approach but not too much really high. Med to high would be closer. Yams, banana's rice later at night and sometimes some frozen yogurt depending

 

[JudoJosh]

^filter for biopsies.

http://m.diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/48/5/1192.short

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/10683091

http://m.ajpendo.physiology.org/content/274/1/E89.short

Glut4 translocation is indeed rapidly diminished after exercise but it is replaced by an increase in muscle cell insulin sensitivity which has the same effect; rapid glucose uptake which lasts for longer periods post exercise (hours).

The need for high high GI carbs post workout is not needed UNLESS people require it for blood sugar levels or sanity reasons.

From a scientific standpoint, we can say it may not matter as far as the evidence so far suggests, but from a personal standpoint it may matter greatly.

Nail on head

 

[LiftWithDonuts]

If the only carbs im having during the day are going to be post workout then I personally prefer high GI carbs, if im eating carbs throughout the day then I prefer low.

 

[kdubson14]

Jiigzz yes, the insulin dependent phase takes over after, but why not try to take advantage of the insulin independent phase as well? You aren't losing anything by attempting to do so and it may assist in glyocogen resynthesis in those with minimal post-wo feeding windows.

 

[Admin]

Jiigzz yes, the insulin dependent phase takes over after, but why not try to take advantage of the insulin independent phase as well? You aren't losing anything by attempting to do so and it may assist in glyocogen resynthesis in those with minimal post-wo feeding windows.

Not sure what you mean "take advantage of". You are basically spiking insulin for no reason.

 

[Jiigzz]

Not sure what you mean "take advantage of". You are basically spiking insulin for no reason.

In the post 'window', glut4 uptake is insulin indepedant (one of the reasons why exercise inhibits insulin production) and even still, if it is present, insulin sensitivity in myocytes is increased dramatically; so the subsequent 'spike' wouldnt really be all that high.

This is one of the reasons exercise is very crucial in type 2 diabetics.

 

[Admin]

In the post 'window', glut4 uptake is insulin indepedant (one of the reasons why exercise inhibits insulin production) and even still, if it is present, insulin sensitivity in myocytes is increased dramatically; so the subsequent 'spike' wouldnt really be all that high.

This is one of the reasons exercise is very crucial in type 2 diabetics.

The spike and load is still quite high with 80g of carbs regardless of exercise.

 

[Jiigzz]

The spike and load is still quite high with 80g of carbs regardless of exercise.

What I should have said is that epinephrine tends to hinder insulin secretion during exercise, and that muscle contraction stimulates glut4 translocation which promotes glucose uptake.

80g is a hefty CHO load, and a lot of the data out there on insulin during and post exercise is on diabetics. Some studies show that CHO (oral delivery) during exercise does not cause an increase in insulin during exercise due to oxidation rates matching intake compared with placebo (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3525502) but I did see one that had a hefty spike (cannot find it now but I know its there)

But importantly:

Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30–60 minutes (phase I)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200333020-00004

Which is echoed again here: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ralph_Manders/publication/7246419_Effects_of_increasing_insulin_secretion_on_acute_postexercise_blood_glucose_disposal/links/546c8afa0cf2c4819f21bb72.pdf

It is hard to see what amount of CHO would be needed to spike insulin that oxidation, GLUT4 etc could not handle post exercise (and during) in non-diabetics but TBH I don't really care as, aside from this debate, it doesn't matter all that much to me

 

[Admin]

80g is a hefty CHO load, and a lot of the data out there on insulin during and post exercise is on diabetics. Some studies show that CHO (oral delivery) during exercise does not cause an increase in insulin during exercise due to oxidation rates matching intake comapred with pacebo (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3525502) and also

There are hundreds of studies showing the insulin response post workout by card, carb+protein, and protein alone (protein+carb being the largest increases). Tipton made a career on it. Increases in GLUT4 expression is insulin independent initially but subsides quickly and its also biphasic which means there is a insulin dependent phase as well.

Also, 80g is what the guy was using.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200333020-00004

Which is echoed again here: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ralph_Manders/publication/7246419_Effects_of_increasing_insulin_secretion_on_acute_postexercise_blood_glucose_disposal/links/546c8afa0cf2c4819f21bb72.pdf

Does that mean it cannot be spiked? Not at all. But again the question is, do you need to spike it? And the answer (which AA and Brad cover very well) is largely a resounding no, unless you are an athlete or exercise multiple times per day.

You seem to be saying exactly what I did on page 1. To put it simply, as I stated earlier, you are trying to use a sledghammer to open a door thats already open.

Yeah AA says it now..but he didn't then. That is until I got him to look at it from a different perspective.

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.
Ivy JL1, Kuo CH.
Author information
Abstract
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

 

[Admin]

What I should have said is that epinephrine tends to hinder insulin secretion during exercise, and that muscle contraction stimulates glut4 translocation which promotes glucose uptake.

Response to your edit:

Not talking about during exercise. Muscle contraction increases glut4 rapidly but diminishes quite quickly as posted by the study above.

 

[Jiigzz]

There are hundreds of studies showing the insulin response post workout by card, carb+protein, protein and protein alone. Tipton made a career on it. Increases in GLUT4 expression is insulin independent initially but subsides quickly and its also biphasic which means there is a insulin dependent phase as well.

Also, 80g is what the guy was using.




You seem to be saying exactly what I did on page 1. To put it simply, as I states earlier, you are trying to use a sledghammer to open a door thats already open.

Yeah AA says it now..but he didn't then. That is until I got him to look at it from a different perspective.

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.
Ivy JL1, Kuo CH.
Author information
Abstract
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

I thought you meant a huge spike DURING exercise; I spent ages trying to find stuff that wasn't in diabetics. That was interesting as well as I also thought exercise blunted insulin release always, but apparently in some situations insulin can be released during exercise.

I know there's a lot of data out there on post exercise anabolism stuff, I just misinterpreted your comment

The study highlights what I was saying earlier about insulin independent shuttling subsiding but being taken over by insulin sensitivity instead (which should reduce insulin secretion to any given load of CHO). It can still be 'spiked', but in comparison to someone who doesn't exercise, the effect should be lessened. But like everyone else, whats the point in spiking if it gives us no extra benefit?

Also that AA comment is interesting. I did dig back through your archives and found he was a member here a while back. My, how times have changed

 

[Admin]

I thought you meant a huge spike DURING exercise; I spent ages trying to find stuff that wasn't in diabetics. That was interesting as well as I also thought exercise blunted insulin release always, but apparently in some situations insulin can be released during exercise.

Ha..no..POST. During you can get away with murder. :lol:

I know there's a lot of data out there on post exercise anabolism stuff, I just misinterpreted your comment

Cool beans.

The study highlights what I was saying earlier about insulin independent shuttling subsiding but being taken over by insulin sensitivity instead (which should reduce insulin secretion to any given load of CHO). It can still be 'spiked', but in comparison to someone who doesn't exercise, the effect should be lessened. But like everyone else, whats the point in spiking if it gives us no extra benefit?

And considering you are extremely sensitive post exercise, the need for high GI isn't needed...hell protein alone is insulinogenic enough to create a significant response...hence my sledgehammer/door analogy.

Also that AA comment is interesting. I did dig back through your archives and found he was a member here a while back. My, how times have changed

That debate was on bb.com. Not even sure it exists but it was a good one. You have to understand, this was in the time of 75g Cell Tech doses... Alan still promoted more a high GI post workout, although not 75g at all...more like 15-20g with protein. We debated over points that were splitting hairs.

Alan is a great guy. Open minded and has a great attitude.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Well now Im intrigued...who is you, Admin? hmmm...

 

[Jiigzz]

Ha..no..POST. During you can get away with murder. :lol:



Cool beans.



And considering you are extremely sensitive post exercise, the need for high GI isn't needed...hell protein alone is insulinogenic enough to create a significant response...hence my sledgehammer/door analogy.



That debate was on bb.com. Not even sure it exists but it was a good one. You have to understand, this was in the time of 75g Cell Tech doses... Alan still promoted more a high GI post workout, although not 75g at all...more like 15-20g with protein. We debated over points that were splitting hairs.

Alan is a great guy. Open minded and has a great attitude.

Well then I wasted a good 20 minutes trying to find data on intra LOL.

Absolutely, no need for it at all really. And considering most people exercise at roughly the same time each day, the need to rush is even less.

Alan is, too bad he doesnt come here more often. Him and brad do some cool things for this industry

 

[Admin]

Well now Im intrigued...who is you, Admin? hmmm...

Nobody.