WHEN TO EAT BIGGER?

[MyKH3LL]

Hi guys,

If you had to choose, what day would you eat more calories? The day of training or the day after (rest day)?

I've been keeping my calories minimal on training days except for my pre and post workout meals and eating a lot more on recovery days. Is this the right approach?

I feel like this is a stupid question, but I just wanted confirmation I'm going about the basics the right way.

 

[TN Lift]

After Leg day!

 

[bolt10]

On training days.

While overall caloric balance over the week will be the biggest factor in overall weight gain, if you are eating different caloric intakes on different days it would be best to center the higher calorie days around training (or higher volume training days).

 

[breezy11]

On training days.

While overall caloric balance over the week will be the biggest factor in overall weight gain, if you are eating different caloric intakes on different days it would be best to center the higher calorie days around training (or higher volume training days).

Agreed.

 

[DB1219]

This is a great question. I intermittent fast (IF) on some days to augment fat burning. I tend to eat less when I IF and my macros suffer. I am increasing protein and carbs now on some days to see if muscles respond. Yesterday was squat day. I always workout fasted. Afterward I ate more than I normally do. I have been wondering is it more important to provide the nutrients on the day of versus the day after.

 

[AntM1564]

On training days.

While overall caloric balance over the week will be the biggest factor in overall weight gain, if you are eating different caloric intakes on different days it would be best to center the higher calorie days around training (or higher volume training days).

This.

However, there are two trains of thought on this. Eating more on the day prior to a tough workout, legs for example, will provide your body with enough energy for that workout the next day. However, the other side is eating more on the day of a tough workout is better because you will have the cals for recovery. But overall, you should look at it on a more macro (big picture, weekly) basis.

 

[EatMoar]

On training days. While overall caloric balance over the week will be the biggest factor in overall weight gain, if you are eating different caloric intakes on different days it would be best to center the higher calorie days around training (or higher volume training days).

Hence why cheat days and 0 carb low cal days are awesome to toss in

 

[The Solution]

Hi guys,

If you had to choose, what day would you eat more calories? The day of training or the day after (rest day)?

I've been keeping my calories minimal on training days except for my pre and post workout meals and eating a lot more on recovery days. Is this the right approach?

I feel like this is a stupid question, but I just wanted confirmation I'm going about the basics the right way.

why are you keeping calories minimal if you want to grow
You simply just need to eat more period. if you are short changing on rest days it may take a toll on your training and energy/recovery. So i would make sure if you train early in the morning to load up the night before (To fuel glycogen stores), or to really make sure your getting in adequate calories around your workout for optimal performance and really hammering your intra/peri workout nutrition if you are going to cut back on other days.

The total weekly surplus and daily surplus is a key factor to your growth!

 

[MyKH3LL]

This is a great question. I intermittent fast (IF) on some days to augment fat burning. I tend to eat less when I IF and my macros suffer. I am increasing protein and carbs now on some days to see if muscles respond. Yesterday was squat day. I always workout fasted. Afterward I ate more than I normally do. I have been wondering is it more important to provide the nutrients on the day of versus the day after.

Thanks... I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering about this. I was thinking I'd sound like a fool haha.

 

[MyKH3LL]

why are you keeping calories minimal if you want to grow
You simply just need to eat more period. if you are short changing on rest days it may take a toll on your training and energy/recovery. So i would make sure if you train early in the morning to load up the night before (To fuel glycogen stores), or to really make sure your getting in adequate calories around your workout for optimal performance and really hammering your intra/peri workout nutrition if you are going to cut back on other days.

The total weekly surplus and daily surplus is a key factor to your growth!

Budget primarily... Not exactly by choice to be honest.

Also, I sometimes feel like I'm confusing myself form overthinking things. I want to grow but I need to drop all this fat I've collected over the last year or so.

I eat on a regular basis but should I just keep the meals small and simple and constant... like MORE than every 3 hours? Would it hurt to be grazing on something clean every 1-2 hours?

 

[The Solution]

no point in eating more often (1-2 hours) it may be better to space your meals further apart 4-6 hours as demonstrated and shown to help increase muscle protein synthesis

personally i would suggest just eating the same or dropping a bit of carbs on non - workout days to help with maintaining a surplus and allowing for better recovery on off days (some like it) some do not. Dropping kcals real low on off days may impact training the next day, but that is personal preference.

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass

 

[Jjbballs]

I have a question I'm just going to post here. I didn't eat much carbs today on my off day but I have running at 6am tomorrow. So will eating my carbs at night act like my preworkout meal and give me energy and burn them. I can't really eat much at 530 just want to know some info on it. Thanks

 

[MyKH3LL]

I have a question I'm just going to post here. I didn't eat much carbs today on my off day but I have running at 6am tomorrow. So will eating my carbs at night act like my preworkout meal and give me energy and burn them. I can't really eat much at 530 just want to know some info on it. Thanks

I'm obviously not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but from my understanding, if you're doing cardio I wouldn't even backload the carbs at all and force your body to use it's fat for fuel instead...? Maybe have some BCAA's to preserve muscle.

If it was resistance training then yeah, I'd think loading up on carbs the night before would fill the glycogen stores and give you the muscle energy to lift.

Hopefully one of the more experienced guys can weigh in on this and correct/educate me at the same time

 

[MyKH3LL]

Hence why cheat days and 0 carb low cal days are awesome to toss in

Just to clarify - cheat meals or cheat days?

How often a week would you incorporate a cheat and a zero/low carb day?

 

[MyKH3LL]

Hence why cheat days and 0 carb low cal days are awesome to toss in

Just to clarify - cheat meals or cheat days?

How often a week would you incorporate a cheat and a zero/low carb day?

 

[EatMoar]

Just to clarify - cheat meals or cheat days? How often a week would you incorporate a cheat and a zero/low carb day?

When I don't lift, 0 carbs. Cheat days are every Sunday for me. That's because I'm Italian and if I don't eat my moms sauce and pasta she'll end my life. So that works out. Sometimes I skip cheat days if I've been "off" on my diet. But I usually don't get out of hand.

 

[The Solution]

When I don't lift, 0 carbs. Cheat days are every Sunday for me. That's because I'm Italian and if I don't eat my moms sauce and pasta she'll end my life. So that works out. Sometimes I skip cheat days if I've been "off" on my diet. But I usually don't get out of hand.

my grandma is italian. if i refuse to eat her homemade pasta , sauce, or meatballs on the holidays i think my head would be cutoff
Do not mess with italians!

 

[DB1219]

..."Also, I sometimes feel like I'm confusing myself form overthinking things. I want to grow but I need to drop all this fat I've collected over the last year or so."

Actually, I do think you are overthinking things just a bit. If you want to lose fat, your diet should be geared primarily to this goal. As for spacing the meals, I agree with Solution - longer gaps with no eating (or even intermittent fasting) allows insulin to be low for long periods of time. This facilitates fat burning, increases insulin sensitivity and allows other hormones like your natural testosterone to be more effective.

 

[GNO]

I'm obviously not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but from my understanding, if you're doing cardio I wouldn't even backload the carbs at all and force your body to use it's fat for fuel instead...? Maybe have some BCAA's to preserve muscle.

If it was resistance training then yeah, I'd think loading up on carbs the night before would fill the glycogen stores and give you the muscle energy to lift.

Hopefully one of the more experienced guys can weigh in on this and correct/educate me at the same time

I disagree. You need energy for any type of exercise, including cardio. If you have a long/intense cardio session in the morning I would definitely have some carbs at your pre-bed meal. If you don't eat anything in the morning you are fasted (sleep hours count).

Don't be scared to have carbs on a rest day if it fits your plan. Remember you are fueling for your next workout.

 

[EatMoar]

my grandma is italian. if i refuse to eat her homemade pasta , sauce, or meatballs on the holidays i think my head would be cutoff Do not mess with italians!

Ahaha yessiree you know the struggle!!!

 

[GNO]

Ahaha yessiree you know the struggle!!!

Also Italian and know the feeling. One trick I have found has worked..."Nonna, I'm not that hungry now but can I take some home?"

Loads me up on leftovers

 

[DB1219]

I personally feel eating before bed should be avoided if he wants to lose fat. I also do not think it is needed for energy to do cardio the next day. Unless he's an endurance athlete, he will have enough energy and he will force the his body to use fat stores. I do it frequently. 16 hour fast/8 hour eating window. I don't eat after 8 pm and then don't have my first meal til noon or after next day. I workout in AM fasted. Combine this with a good low-carb diet and watch the fat fall off!

 

[GNO]

I personally feel eating before bed should be avoided if he wants to lose fat. I also do not think it is needed for energy to do cardio the next day. Unless he's an endurance athlete, he will have enough energy and he will force the his body to use fat stores. I do it frequently. 16 hour fast/8 hour eating window. I don't eat after 8 pm and then don't have my first meal til noon or after next day. I workout in AM fasted. Combine this with a good low-carb diet and watch the fat fall off!

No issues with your plan, but you need carbs sometimes. So either daily or on a re-feed when carb cycling.

 

[bolt10]

I personally feel eating before bed should be avoided if he wants to lose fat. I also do not think it is needed for energy to do cardio the next day. Unless he's an endurance athlete, he will have enough energy and he will force the his body to use fat stores. I do it frequently. 16 hour fast/8 hour eating window. I don't eat after 8 pm and then don't have my first meal til noon or after next day. I workout in AM fasted. Combine this with a good low-carb diet and watch the fat fall off!

There's absolutely no reason to avoid carbs or food at night. That's not going to make any appreciable difference in fat loss.

 

[breezy11]

There's absolutely no reason to avoid carbs or food at night. That's not going to make any appreciable difference in fat loss.

Agreed. Neither is IF compared to eating throughout the day, if calories consumed are equal.

 

[EatMoar]

To contribute, I feel like I can't sleep if I eat before bed. If I sleep on an empty stomach, my sleep is more restful.

 

[The Solution]

To contribute, I feel like I can't sleep if I eat before bed. If I sleep on an empty stomach, my sleep is more restful.

Opposite for me
i eat my largest meal before bed and sleep like a rock.

 

[GNO]

Opposite for me
i eat my largest meal before bed and sleep like a rock.

I also eat the most at night due to my schedule. My sleep is really only affected by other factors (ie. Stims too close to bed, stress, etc).

 

[AntM1564]

Opposite for me
i eat my largest meal before bed and sleep like a rock.

This. Ever since I started student teaching and have my biggest meal pre bed, I sleep like a baby

 

[MyKH3LL]

..."Also, I sometimes feel like I'm confusing myself form overthinking things. I want to grow but I need to drop all this fat I've collected over the last year or so."

Actually, I do think you are overthinking things just a bit. If you want to lose fat, your diet should be geared primarily to this goal. As for spacing the meals, I agree with Solution - longer gaps with no eating (or even intermittent fasting) allows insulin to be low for long periods of time. This facilitates fat burning, increases insulin sensitivity and allows other hormones like your natural testosterone to be more effective.

*thumbs up*

Well, I'll push my meals out to every 4 - 5 hours. What are your thoughts on BCAA's through the day? Should I hit a bit of Amino IV between meals? Would it be beneficial at all?

I disagree. You need energy for any type of exercise, including cardio. If you have a long/intense cardio session in the morning I would definitely have some carbs at your pre-bed meal. If you don't eat anything in the morning you are fasted (sleep hours count).

Don't be scared to have carbs on a rest day if it fits your plan. Remember you are fueling for your next workout.

Well, my sessions are shorter and more intense and I don't mind working out fasted to be completely honest.

I personally feel eating before bed should be avoided if he wants to lose fat. I also do not think it is needed for energy to do cardio the next day. Unless he's an endurance athlete, he will have enough energy and he will force the his body to use fat stores. I do it frequently. 16 hour fast/8 hour eating window. I don't eat after 8 pm and then don't have my first meal til noon or after next day. I workout in AM fasted. Combine this with a good low-carb diet and watch the fat fall off!

THIS is what I always thought! I usually have my last meal by 8-8:30 PM and then have my first meal around 10:30 AM because I am ready to eat my own arm by that point. If I'm lucky I can last until noon, but it's rare.

No issues with your plan, but you need carbs sometimes. So either daily or on a re-feed when carb cycling.

This is where I start to get confused, there seems to be some conflicting information. I guess I just need to see what works best for my body and my schedule. I think I'll keep to minimal carbs (and keep them complex) pretty much every day I don't lift, say just one meal on those days, and add them into a second meal PWO on lifting days.

There's absolutely no reason to avoid carbs or food at night. That's not going to make any appreciable difference in fat loss.

Bigger picture right?

Opposite for me
i eat my largest meal before bed and sleep like a rock.

YES. I don't eat right before bed, but if I don't have a good meal towards the end of the day, I'm tossing and turning and can't relax. That's usually when I get up and have some cottage cheese, get something in my gut and then crash out with a feeling of satisfaction

 

[GNO]

^^^ You need to find what works best for your body and schedule. A low, moderate or even high carb diet can still lead to fat loss in a calorie deficit. Find the right balance for you...monitor your energy levels/progress and adjust.

In terms of aminos, it would be beneficial to sip on between meals if your waiting 4-6 hours. I would use Amino IV intra-workout or post and use a simple BCAA formula in between meals.

 

[DB1219]

MYKH3LL, my grandma used to say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
My advice was somewhat over simplified. I agree with all above that carbs can provide energy to power through workouts that burn fat. And many on this site are motivated, highly skilled muscle /strength builders and have dialed in that carb/protein diet and they have proven results. However, for average people, fat loss eludes them. I just suggest you explore alternatives to calorie restriction diets because most folks hate counting calories, get hungry, can't stay on them and often gain the fat back. Finding that balance between energy (for your workout), losing body fat and building muscle is the holy grail, so-to-speak. If you are unhappy with your BF percentage I would prioritize fat loss which ever way you choose.

 

[DB1219]

Opposite for me
i eat my largest meal before bed and sleep like a rock.

I sleep great if I eat before bed. I have read however that raised insulin levels (digestion) can suppress the release growth hormone, testosterone that is released while we sleep. Any thoughts? Hell, I'm 48, I need all the testosterone I can get.

 

[The Solution]

I sleep great if I eat before bed. I have read however that raised insulin levels (digestion) can suppress the release growth hormone, testosterone that is released while we sleep. Any thoughts? Hell, I'm 48, I need all the testosterone I can get.

If anything it will increase seretonin levels and provide deeper sleep this is what i have been following and absolutely have found it to work well for me
Energy/Performance wise

http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems.com/content.php?108-The-Biorhythm-Diet

Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I would keep my intake consistent throughout. On and off days. Set your plan and stick to it. The only change i would account for is your intraworkout and post workout nutrition (For example intra workout carbs and protein shakes). Those should be in addition to your daily intake and only on training days of course.

 

[MyKH3LL]

^^^ You need to find what works best for your body and schedule. A low, moderate or even high carb diet can still lead to fat loss in a calorie deficit. Find the right balance for you...monitor your energy levels/progress and adjust.

In terms of aminos, it would be beneficial to sip on between meals if your waiting 4-6 hours. I would use Amino IV intra-workout or post and use a simple BCAA formula in between meals.

I already use Amino IV intra

It's good stuff

 

[MyKH3LL]

MYKH3LL, my grandma used to say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
My advice was somewhat over simplified. I agree with all above that carbs can provide energy to power through workouts that burn fat. And many on this site are motivated, highly skilled muscle /strength builders and have dialed in that carb/protein diet and they have proven results. However, for average people, fat loss eludes them. I just suggest you explore alternatives to calorie restriction diets because most folks hate counting calories, get hungry, can't stay on them and often gain the fat back. Finding that balance between energy (for your workout), losing body fat and building muscle is the holy grail, so-to-speak. If you are unhappy with your BF percentage I would prioritize fat loss which ever way you choose.

Thanks mate. I appreciate your input to this thread. You're right though, I need to focus on one goal at a time and for me at the moment, the priority is fat loss so I can return to a more respectable BF%. Once I'm back to that and feeling more comfortable and confident in myself, I will shift my focus towards recomp.

I'm going to dial in on a calorie deficit 'diet' and monitor my progress as I go and see how I'm responding. The days I'm feeling very sluggish I might add some more carbs and see how this makes me feel and perform.

 

[MyKH3LL]

no point in eating more often (1-2 hours) it may be better to space your meals further apart 4-6 hours as demonstrated and shown to help increase muscle protein synthesis

personally i would suggest just eating the same or dropping a bit of carbs on non - workout days to help with maintaining a surplus and allowing for better recovery on off days (some like it) some do not. Dropping kcals real low on off days may impact training the next day, but that is personal preference.

http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass

So after looking at these links, a meal every 4-6 hours is ideal with Leucine in between yes? - So I could drop some Analysed Supps Leucine-1000 every two/three hours to tie me over until the next meal and then keep the Amino IV for my intra-workout?

In terms of meals, either egg white omelette or protein shake first thing in the morning. Some chicken breast with veg as next two meals, the second one including sweet potato or brown rice (or another alternative complex carb), PWO shake with some simple carbs, and a good size steak and more veg post training with again, more sweet potato to ensure a good sleep

Please correct me on any of that as my brain almost turned to mush trying to understand the science behind those links

 

[The Solution]

So after looking at these links, a meal every 4-6 hours is ideal with Leucine in between yes? - So I could drop some Analysed Supps Leucine-1000 every two/three hours to tie me over until the next meal and then keep the Amino IV for my intra-workout?

Yup

for instance
Meal 1 - 8ish
Leucine - 10ish
Meal 2- 12 (4 hr) - 2 (6 hour)
Leucine 2-3 hours later (2-4)
Meal 3 - another 2-3 hours after dose (4-6)
etc..