Question about low-carb approach and fat intake...

[Johnston]

If you are on a low-carb diet, is there a recommended daily intake of fat? Typically, I've always just hit my protein and fat guidelines for the day (approx 1-1.2g/lb and 0.4-5g/lb bodyweight respectively), with carbs simply filling up the rest of whatever calories I have left.

However... if you were sticking to 50-100 carbs a day, and protein was as before, and you had a 2500 calorie target each day... that would equal, in my case being 78kg/172lb, a daily fat intake of approx 140-165g dependent how high the carbs were. Does that seem right, as to my eye that seems a touch high. I've very rarely gone above 100g before, and am often in the 80-90g range.

I have chosen 2500 as the example as I seem to maintain at around the 2600-700 mark (not low-carb though). I'm just toying with the idea of dropping my carbs right down for a while, and having the odd re-feed (once weekly is good from what I've read), just to try something different. I welcome all opinions and advice.

 

[max d]

In my personal expereince there is no point of going semi low carb. If you dont go below 50g/of carbs a day you dont get the low carb benefits. So either go big or go home in my opinion. Unless you just like fats over carbs more, than thats your choice.

 

[LeanEngineer]

I gotta have my carbs pre and post workout or otherwise i feel like crap and feel weak. haha

 

[Johnston]

I never have carbs pre-workout. I've tried it to see if it makes a difference, but it doesn't.

So below 50g then, same question applies... fat will be pushing 160g+ per day, except for carb-up day once a week. How does that sound?

 

[Jiigzz]

If you are on a low-carb diet, is there a recommended daily intake of fat? Typically, I've always just hit my protein and fat guidelines for the day (approx 1-1.2g/lb and 0.4-5g/lb bodyweight respectively), with carbs simply filling up the rest of whatever calories I have left.

However... if you were sticking to 50-100 carbs a day, and protein was as before, and you had a 2500 calorie target each day... that would equal, in my case being 78kg/172lb, a daily fat intake of approx 140-165g dependent how high the carbs were. Does that seem right, as to my eye that seems a touch high. I've very rarely gone above 100g before, and am often in the 80-90g range.

I have chosen 2500 as the example as I seem to maintain at around the 2600-700 mark (not low-carb though). I'm just toying with the idea of dropping my carbs right down for a while, and having the odd re-feed (once weekly is good from what I've read), just to try something different. I welcome all opinions and advice.

The fat is only high as you are not accustomed to seeing it. Its relative and subjective - to me, a lot of people have chronically low fat intakes (60-80g) compared to my 150+

In my personal expereince there is no point of going semi low carb. If you dont go below 50g/of carbs a day you dont get the low carb benefits. So either go big or go home in my opinion. Unless you just like fats over carbs more, than thats your choice.

This is subjective as low carb has a myriad of health benefits over higher carb. Low can be anything form 40% of daily intake and lower.

 

[max d]

The fat is only high as you are not accustomed to seeing it. Its relative and subjective - to me, a lot of people have chronically low fat intakes (60-80g) compared to my 150+



This is subjective as low carb has a myriad of health benefits over higher carb. Low can be anything form 40% of daily intake and lower.

No it is NOT subjective if you want the benefits of "low carb" diets, "If your goal is ketosis such that body runs on fat versus glucose, carb intake needs to be below 50 grams a day to achieve fat loss, according to a review in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition."

http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/1143/Eight_Common_but_Dangerous_Mistakes_of_A_High-Fat_.aspx

 

[Jiigzz]

No it is NOT subjective if you want the benefits of "low carb" diets, "If your goal is ketosis such that body runs on fat versus glucose, carb intake needs to be below 50 grams a day to achieve fat loss, according to a review in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition."

http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/1143/Eight_Common_but_Dangerous_Mistakes_of_A_High-Fat_.aspx

Who said anything about ketosis? Not the Op, thats for sure.

Get your facts straight.

that article is not even slightly related to the discussion Read more on why weight loss with keto versus non keto low carb versus high carb produce equal weight loss.

Here, read more:

We found no significant difference in overall weight loss between persons on these 2 diets.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717452

Weight loss was 7.3 ± 0.3 kg with both diets.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/6/1298.short

The mean weight loss was 2.9 kg for the low-fat group, 4.4 kg for the Mediterranean-diet group, and 4.7 kg for the low-carbohydrate group

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0708681

Low-carbohydrate, non–energy-restricted diets appear to be at least as effective as low-fat, energy-restricted diets in inducing weight loss for up to 1 year.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791

KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.full.pdf&a=bi&pagenumber=1&w=100

 

[max d]

Like I said in my first post, its your choice if you want more fats are carbs in your diet. When I said if you want low carb benefits I was talking about weight loss, which low carb, under 50g/day, has been proven to be more effective in the short term. You are correct that in the long term it evens out though. If your goal is maintenance then who cares what your fat/carbs are made up of as long as your eating at maintanence calories... again like my firt post said if you like more fats then eat more fats, its your choice. I guess I should of put more detail into my explanation.

Personally i dont like low carb diets because I train like crap. The only way my carbs go relatively low is when im at a pretty big deficit which my macros are eaten up mostly by protein, min fat I require, and whatever is left is filled with carbs.

My facts are straight. like you said low carb is a relative term hence why there has been a general rule of thumb for the term low carb, another poliquin article, "Low-carb, high-protein diets are effective for fat loss. This is a scientific fact. But, low-carb is a vague term. Simply cutting the average American man’s carb intake of 310 grams a day in half could be considered low-carb, but if you are overweight and your goal is fat loss, you most likely need to go a lot lower than 155 grams. A review in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition suggests the 50 to 150 g/day range is too high for losing body fat in overweight, sedentary populations. A useful definition of a low-carb fat loss diet is less than 50 grams of carbs a day, which will lead to the production of ketones."

As the Hodge twins would say, "this is all just advice. Do whatever the f@ck you want!" hahah

 

[Johnston]

Well, I'm not overweight, for a start. I'm in good shape, relatively lean (prob about 12-13% bf right now), so I was toying with this idea just to try something different for a change. I have done the ZERO carb thing before, and I DID NOT like it. Felt like crap and my training tanked. I probably didn't give it long enough to get in to ketosis, but after a while I just didn't care. I like carbs, and I have no intention of giving them up altogether. Currently I adopt an approach where I consume all my carbs after training (from about 4-5pm onwards), and that works for me. I feel no need for them earlier, and most of my fats tend to be consumed earlier in the day.

I had read a bit about people having results with having no carbs during the week though, and then having one day at the weekend (for example) where they loaded up. This is something I think I could handle, but I was just looking for some general advice. I'm certainly no stranger to counting calories/macros, I know what I need to eat to lose/maintain/gain, and adhering to a strict protocol is easy for me... in fact I probably border on OCD with it all, but I enjoy it and it's a regular part of my life now.

 

[Jiigzz]

Well, I'm not overweight, for a start. I'm in good shape, relatively lean (prob about 12-13% bf right now), so I was toying with this idea just to try something different for a change. I have done the ZERO carb thing before, and I DID NOT like it. Felt like crap and my training tanked. I probably didn't give it long enough to get in to ketosis, but after a while I just didn't care. I like carbs, and I have no intention of giving them up altogether. Currently I adopt an approach where I consume all my carbs after training (from about 4-5pm onwards), and that works for me. I feel no need for them earlier, and most of my fats tend to be consumed earlier in the day.

I had read a bit about people having results with having no carbs during the week though, and then having one day at the weekend (for example) where they loaded up. This is something I think I could handle, but I was just looking for some general advice. I'm certainly no stranger to counting calories/macros, I know what I need to eat to lose/maintain/gain, and adhering to a strict protocol is easy for me... in fact I probably border on OCD with it all, but I enjoy it and it's a regular part of my life now.

Overweight people are easier to get participating in studies than leaner - as most of the general population do not fall into the 'lean' category. In saying that, the theory behind it is all the same. It all depends on what you prefer and can tolerate - if it impacts your training, then its better to adjust to optimise training.

FWIW, low carb trumps high carb any day for overall health, and both are fairly equal across the board for sparing muscle tissue and promoting muscle growth provided you can adequately adapt without performance being affected.

 

[Johnston]

Overweight people are easier to get participating in studies than leaner - as most of the general population do not fall into the 'lean' category. In saying that, the theory behind it is all the same. It all depends on what you prefer and can tolerate - if it impacts your training, then its better to adjust to optimise training.

FWIW, low carb trumps high carb any day for overall health, and both are fairly equal across the board for sparing muscle tissue and promoting muscle growth provided you can adequately adapt without performance being affected.

Great, thanks for your input and the links you posted... some good reading there.

 

[Johnston]

...to me, a lot of people have chronically low fat intakes (60-80g) compared to my 150+

I'm curious how you structure your fat intake at that level... do you break it down, ensure you get a certain amount of saturated, omega 3, 6 etc.?

 

[Jiigzz]

I'm curious how you structure your fat intake at that level... do you break it down, ensure you get a certain amount of saturated, omega 3, 6 etc.?

I don't get overly technical with it, but I do vary food sources regularly. Meat 3-4 days per week and Salmon 3-4 days per week and the like. I don't plan it out specifically anymore

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Personally I dont go above 30 grams carbs on weekdays, and carb up, low fat on weekends. Once your Body is fat adapted (can take weeks) you feel better than ever, getting to that point sucks. I've been gaining strength and developing muscle without carbs, the pumps aren't as intense, but its nothing to worry about. Plus overall energy is off the charts.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

From experience and especially initially you need to keep the fats high. When your body adapts to using them for energy, you can cut your overall calories back.

If you are trying to lose weight you need to be in a caloric deficit, bottomline. No matter what the diet is.

 

[Johnston]

From experience and especially initially you need to keep the fats high. When your body adapts to using them for energy, you can cut your overall calories back.

If you are trying to lose weight you need to be in a caloric deficit, bottomline. No matter what the diet is.

What was your protocol for the carb ups exactly? Still within your calorie limits I assume, but just replacing a significant amount of the fats with carbs? I'm well used to monitoring calories/macros, so I know how important that is.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Yea exactly. I kept it within my macros. It's kinda nice because you get to eat more food physically since carbs are 4 calories per gram compared to fat at 9. Also I tend to drop my protein as well. Really focus on carbs. My muscles get full again, mental clarity. Monday my strentgh is up. Then i lock it in for the week and go back to no carbs. Also bulked liked this with massive carb ups. This was cool because I didn't gain a lot of fat. I really try to keep all my food clean, nothing processed regardless.
I took the anabolic diet ans tweaked it to help me.

 

[Johnston]

Yea exactly. I kept it within my macros. It's kinda nice because you get to eat more food physically since carbs are 4 calories per gram compared to fat at 9. Also I tend to drop my protein as well. Really focus on carbs. My muscles get full again, mental clarity. Monday my strentgh is up. Then i lock it in for the week and go back to no carbs. Also bulked liked this with massive carb ups. This was cool because I didn't gain a lot of fat. I really try to keep all my food clean, nothing processed regardless.
I took the anabolic diet ans tweaked it to help me.

Sounds good. What were your macros out of curiosity during the week vs weekend? Did you carb up both days or just one?

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I did 3000 cals, around 300 grams protein 12-1400 cals, 150-180 fat 1500 cal rest in leafy greens, and carbs from nuts, avocado ect.

On the weekend it was Same overall cala, but like 75% carbs and then some ehh white and fish. I almost eliminated fats those days.

Depending how I felt and how I looked, Also largely how I was performing, I would either do one or two days. During Bulks I would do post w/o friday thru post w/ o mid day Sunday, then go back to no carbs.rihgt now I like to do friday post workout thru saturdqy. 1.25 days carbup. I. currently recomping. This diet World really well for that. I have mqintained my wieght but see changes in the mirror week to week

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Also depending on how much you carb up,(ex. ive done massive refeeds of 1000+ grams of carbs,)you can gain up to ten pounnds on the weekend (water food etc) usually by Wednesday or Thursday its all gone and u should be leaner. If im not I know i have to adjust something. Mtst of the time i always am.

 

[Johnston]

I did 3000 cals, around 300 grams protein 12-1400 cals, 150-180 fat 1500 cal rest in leafy greens, and carbs from nuts, avocado ect.

On the weekend it was Same overall cala, but like 75% carbs and then some ehh white and fish. I almost eliminated fats those days.

Depending how I felt and how I looked, Also largely how I was performing, I would either do one or two days. During Bulks I would do post w/o friday thru post w/ o mid day Sunday, then go back to no carbs.rihgt now I like to do friday post workout thru saturdqy. 1.25 days carbup. I. currently recomping. This diet World really well for that. I have mqintained my wieght but see changes in the mirror week to week

Cool, thanks for the info. What were your go-to carb sources, lots of rice and potatoes? Did you notice any difference if you kept them complex, or if you had more sugar in there? I don't respond very well to large quantities of wheat myself, and oats don't sit right in my stomach, so I'm probably more limited than most people when it comes to eating LOTS of carbs simply in terms of the choice, and the risk of getting insanely bored with the same stuff over and over lol! Rice and potatoes are easy for me up to a point, as I can stomach both just fine, and obviously both are zero-fat options. But if I was pushing 500g+ that would be more tricky for sure.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Staple are sweet potatoes and Brown rice. Then red or white potatoes, and white or Long grain and wild rice.

I dont really do wheat.

I Definitely drink 1-3 liters of coconut water. Each liter is about 200 cal 40 carbs, this doesnt get me bloated. Also I Might each an entire pineapple (great for digestión) throuhout the day. Watermelon, and berries. I do not take in processed sugars. I Eat all the colored veggies, and sometimes I will Eat one meal a week of french toast or pancakes, cereal and oats.

Also i will Eat plain.greek yogurt for protein along with turkey egg whites and white fish

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Also on the weekends I do intra work out carbs hbcd and postworkout carbs in my shake.

 

[Johnston]

Also on the weekends I do intra work out carbs hbcd and postworkout carbs in my shake.

Thanks for the info, and sorry for all the questions lol! Did you have any set structure to your fat intake during the week? It's one area I've had trouble researching, in regards to the recommended break down of fats, Omega 3/6, saturated, mono etc. etc. as there's a fair bit of conflicting advice, and no guidelines I can find for a higher fat intake of 150g+... in fact there's so much low-fat crap still out there it's ridiculous! Some may argue it doesn't matter, but i'm sure there's a right way to break it down from a health perspective.

 

[Jiigzz]

Thanks for the info, and sorry for all the questions lol! Did you have any set structure to your fat intake during the week? It's one area I've had trouble researching, in regards to the recommended break down of fats, Omega 3/6, saturated, mono etc. etc. as there's a fair bit of conflicting advice, and no guidelines I can find for a higher fat intake of 150g+... in fact there's so much low-fat crap still out there it's ridiculous! Some may argue it doesn't matter, but i'm sure there's a right way to break it down from a health perspective.

The general recommendation is to keep each form to roughly a third (Sat Fat 33%, MUFA, 43% and PUFA 24%) however it is still up for debate as to what is optimal.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Ive done it all by trial and error. I definitely found Olivé oil to be my favorite go to. If my fats are low or even pre workout ill take a 2 oz shot of Olivé oil. I Cook with it. Also coconut oil in my coffee is nice. I do that pre workout as well. I really stick to fat from steaks, ground beef and now chicken thighs cooked in the crockpot. I get them at sams for 1.19 a pounds. Also I Eat walnuts, cheeses and avocados. Spinich, broccoli, asparagus, are main fiber sources, this is very important Lol. Also take fiber pills, when I Eat high red meat for the day. I def take an omega 3 supp, and since lecithin granuales are fat based im looking into incorporaring them as well. As soon as my fats are questionable for the day I go right to Olivé oil Lol. Stop and shop has a "light tasting Olive oil" that is really eay to take with litttle to no after tastre

 

[Johnston]

Ive done it all by trial and error. I definitely found Olivé oil to be my favorite go to. If my fats are low or even pre workout ill take a 2 oz shot of Olivé oil. I Cook with it. Also coconut oil in my coffee is nice. I do that pre workout as well. I really stick to fat from steaks, ground beef and now chicken thighs cooked in the crockpot. I get them at sams for 1.19 a pounds. Also I Eat walnuts, cheeses and avocados. Spinich, broccoli, asparagus, are main fiber sources, this is very important Lol. Also take fiber pills, when I Eat high red meat for the day. I def take an omega 3 supp, and since lecithin granuales are fat based im looking into incorporaring them as well. As soon as my fats are questionable for the day I go right to Olivé oil Lol. Stop and shop has a "light tasting Olive oil" that is really eay to take with litttle to no after tastre

Many thanks. We seem to have very simliar eating habits actually, so I can see this being pretty straightforward for me... just a case of increasing the amounts. Did you take any heed of some advice I've read about keeping fats lower at night, or is that simply bro science mythology?

 

[EMPIREMIND]

actually yes I am doing that now. I think overall its calories out calories in though.

 

[GNO]

Interesting posts here re: benefit of low carb days >50.
I tend to get pretty lethargic on low carb days so stay 60-80g and refeeed at 200g carbs. Is that a waste of time?
31yrs old, 5'7" & ~150lbs
If I want to carb cycle, should I go ~40g carbs/day and refered every 4 days to keep energy up?

 

[RecompMan]

I like when dieting

Intra carbs, and carb backloading with intermittent caloric restriction with a lenient IF time frame (INTRA carbs before eating window solid foods during window)

 

[EMPIREMIND]

In my experience its eitherall or nothing thy works eat with me. When i go above 30 I notice I'm groggy and sometimes my mod changes. Sometimes this is very tough, but once you body is adapted it shouldn't even phase you.

I personally didn't do well on carb cycling. Once I started going under 30 grams a dayiit got to be beneficial for me. I find that I need to carb up no sooner than 5 days, sometimes every 6 or 7 days.

I only feel confortable reccomneding you to expeiment and see how your body reacts.

Good luck bro

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I like when dieting

Intra carbs, and carb backloading with intermittent caloric restriction with a lenient IF time frame (INTRA carbs before eating window solid foods during window)

This sounds really good. I might give this a shot

 

[GNO]

I like when dieting

Intra carbs, and carb backloading with intermittent caloric restriction with a lenient IF time frame (INTRA carbs before eating window solid foods during window)

Does intra-carbs hinder the intermittent fasting protocol?

 

[RecompMan]

Does intra-carbs hinder the intermittent fasting protocol?

I use specific carbs with very low insulin load or that has a thermo affect

 

[GNO]

Considering low carb 50+ is not of great benefit, if I just eat a calorie deficit. What is a good number?

Hit my protein and then let fat/carbs fall where they may?

 

[Jiigzz]

Considering low carb 50+ is not of great benefit, if I just eat a calorie deficit. What is a good number?

Hit my protein and then let fat/carbs fall where they may?

Hit protein and fat. The real benefit of low carb is its effects on blood lipids

 

[Johnston]

I use specific carbs with very low insulin load or that has a thermo affect

What was your intra carb of choice and what quantity, if this matters? I've used Vitargo in the past myself.

 

[RecompMan]

What was your intra carb of choice and what quantity, if this matters? I've used Vitargo in the past myself.

ISO maltulose
Hydroxy propyl dj starch phosphate

And guar gum 9g post workout if I have carbs

 

[Johnston]

ISO maltulose
Hydroxy propyl dj starch phosphate

And guar gum 9g post workout if I have carbs

Where do you get that? Bulk buy? I'm in the UK, and a quick search doesn't reveal anywhere it can be obtained.

 

[RecompMan]

Where do you get that? Bulk buy? I'm in the UK, and a quick search doesn't reveal anywhere it can be obtained.

I'll take a look for you for UK suppliers

Karbolyn is best bet for isomaltulose or the ctd labs carb powder

Carbonx is the other

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I'll take a look for you for UK suppliers

Karbolyn is best bet for isomaltulose or the ctd labs carb powder

Carbonx is the other

Would hbcd work in a similar fashion?

 

[Johnston]

I'll take a look for you for UK suppliers

Karbolyn is best bet for isomaltulose or the ctd labs carb powder

Thanks. There's a UK company called MyProtein here that sell 100% Karbo-lyn™ (homopolysaccharide derived from potato, rice and corn. 100% Starch)... so I presume that's the right stuff?

So this is a slightly different protocol than what EMPIREMIND has done, with no carbs during week, then carbing up at weekends... or are you saying it could still fit in with this regimen? Or just take the Karbolyn at weekends?

 

[EMPIREMIND]

i actually do that on weekends when i dont have to work in the am, i do a fast from my post wrokout meal the night before and then in the morn do fasted cardio for 30 mins taking my caffiene and yohibme, lately been using alphamine. then after cardio i hit weights and 30 mins into that i sar aking in my hbcd carbs and bcaa intraworkout, this is the first time im getting in the carbs for the week. that entire workout is very intense on my body. i love it. i think his protocol is daily, but its def effective none the less.

 

[RecompMan]

Thanks. There's a UK company called MyProtein here that sell 100% Karbo-lyn™ (homopolysaccharide derived from potato, rice and corn. 100% Starch)... so I presume that's the right stuff? So this is a slightly different protocol than what EMPIREMIND has done, with no carbs during week, then carbing up at weekends... or are you saying it could still fit in with this regimen? Or just take the Karbolyn at weekends?

Palantinose is isomaltulose

 

[GNO]

when i train at night, i have two meals early in the day ending around 10am to start an IF. Post-workout I may have a scoop of Karbolyn followed by a meal. Would it still be useful for recovery/carb loading to have another scoop at breakfast?

 

[Johnston]

How does Karbolyn compare to HBCD then? That seems to be gaining popularity of late, with some good science to back it up.

 

[RecompMan]

How does Karbolyn compare to HBCD then? That seems to be gaining popularity of late, with some good science to back it up.

IMO I get better workouts on the hbcd INTRA

But better leanness on karbolic (that was my mistake I don't use karbolyn) and hydroxypropyl distarch phosphare

 

[Johnston]

What would be your recommended dosage protocol for karbolyn then?

 

[RecompMan]

What would be your recommended dosage protocol for karbolyn then?

50g intra (sessions over an hour) with aminos
It's really very basic lol

It's the **** I like to add to it

Non stim pres added with osthole melatonin (yes melatonin) then post workout can do same protocol with 9g guar gum

Wait till eating window for if and then eat

 

[Johnston]

You seem to have a very scientific approach to this. What does the melatonin do and how much do you take? Technically speaking, doesn't consuming the karbolyn+aminos break the fast, so it's not really IF anymore? Or is there something magic about how this particular carb works?