Is Whey Protein Pre-Post Workout Actually Neccessary?????

LB_Patriot

New member
Awards
0
Been taking it for years but I hear a lot of conflicting opinions on whether its actually necessary. I understand it digest faster than whole food protein and helps trigger protein synthesis, but can't simply taking BCAA pre and post trigger the same synthesizing effect and then post workout just have a quality lean protein whole food meal?

Opinions????

Thanks
 
Driven2lift

Driven2lift

AnabolicMinds Site Rep
Awards
0
Just get in your daily protein target from quality sources and eat when it's convenient brother, negligible differences.
 

LB_Patriot

New member
Awards
0
So you think simply taking ample amount of bcaa pre and post workout and eating whole food protein withing an hour of training will still preserve muscle and create protein synthesis without needing immediately liquid protein?
 
Driven2lift

Driven2lift

AnabolicMinds Site Rep
Awards
0
The only real concern is getting adequate protein intake over the day. Muscles grow during recovery.

If your meals are distant from the workout I might suggest going for an EAA over a BCAA, and hopefully there is not a large gap between the weight lifting and meal

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/pes-amino-iv-blue-berry-burst.html

Great product I use when there is a large gap between meals
 

LB_Patriot

New member
Awards
0
Thanks man,

Do you consider 2 hours as last meal prior to workout a large gap?
 
Driven2lift

Driven2lift

AnabolicMinds Site Rep
Awards
0
Thanks man, Do you consider 2 hours as last meal prior to workout a large gap?
No that is good, I eat a solid complex carb and protein meal 2 hours prior so I have energy and can still get the most benefit out of a pre-workout.

I eat a whole food meal not long after as well, but on days where scheduling is different I sometimes opt for just a shake after for convenience
 

PILL

Member
Awards
0
The shakes are just a convenience thing. Real food is better for you anyways since it will have actual nutrients and minerals in it.
 
AntM1564

AntM1564

Legend
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Get real food in you whenever possible. Protein powder is a supplement and one should not rely on using it for the majority of their protein intake all of the time. The whole you need protein powder upon waking, pre/post workout, and pre bed is just marketing.
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
So you think simply taking ample amount of bcaa pre and post workout and eating whole food protein withing an hour of training will still preserve muscle and create protein synthesis without needing immediately liquid protein?
BCAA would be best for pre-workout fasted training or dosed as a bolus between meals 4-6 hours apart
Just eat around your workouts and use sources that settle easy and give you optimal performance. Whey should be utilized when you "Cannot" get whole foods to help supplement and reach protein minimums.
 
Grayson

Grayson

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Alan Aragon did a recent study that showed that in order stimulate MPS and mTOR you need 0.4-0.5g/kg of protein post workout. When you get that in the post-workout period does not matter. I believe there was no statistical difference between 1 and 3 hours post. Also CHO is not necessary for these processes. However he does state that whey is the most efficient and easiest method.

Ergo-log had an article from way back that showed that 170g of beef was enough to stimulate the necessary actions needed for muscle rebuilding.

Take all these things with a grain of salt and apply it to your lifestyle.

Personally, I do whey hydro because it's easier on my stomach and because I'm cutting. If I was maintaining or allowed myself more calories with a different macro breakdown, I'd probably do a burger, steak or chopped beef post workout.
 
Young Gotti

Young Gotti

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
is it necessary? no, is it going to hurt? no

my recommendation if it's not a cost issue is to consume an isolate shake like isotean or isolyze to maximize protein synthesis and then eat a meal shortly there after, i get super hungry after working out and i find the isolate shakes don't mess with my hunger nearly as much....but it all depends, if you have a meal waiting for you and your gym is 5 minutes from your house then it's not a huge deal, but if you have to drive 15 minutes home and then cook a meal, a shake isn't a bad idea

other factors come into play as well like intra workout nutrition as well...so is it necessary, no but doesn't mean it's a bad idea either
 
Gutterpump

Gutterpump

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
I like BCAAs pre / during workout and I like to use hydrowhey post with a meal an hour or so after that.
 

LB_Patriot

New member
Awards
0
I like BCAAs pre / during workout and I like to use hydrowhey post with a meal an hour or so after that.
I take 10 grams bcaa pre workout and another 10 intra/post, while im training. I cut down my whey to only about 20 grams post workout just for a little something until I get home. I personally would rather have whole food anyway. keeps me fuller longer.
 
hewhoisripped

hewhoisripped

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
It could be detrimental if your having iso 30m pre workout, 1h workout and then iso again. 1.5h is not ideal protein spacing.
 
Gutterpump

Gutterpump

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
I take 10 grams bcaa pre workout and another 10 intra/post, while im training. I cut down my whey to only about 20 grams post workout just for a little something until I get home. I personally would rather have whole food anyway. keeps me fuller longer.
Sounds like what I do. I also love to take EAA's peri-workout whenever I can. I usually use MST's RPG, which has EAA's, but currently using Xtend again. I'll typically use a couple scoups in my water during my workout, and will sometimes have a couple scoops before.

My typical workout is 1.5 - 2 hours, which includes my warmup (roughly 30min), some active/passive stretching, prehab, and 30min cool down. I don't train like a typical bodybuilder though.
 

LB_Patriot

New member
Awards
0
Sounds like what I do. I also love to take EAA's peri-workout whenever I can. I usually use MST's RPG, which has EAA's, but currently using Xtend again. I'll typically use a couple scoups in my water during my workout, and will sometimes have a couple scoops before.

My typical workout is 1.5 - 2 hours, which includes my warmup (roughly 30min), some active/passive stretching, prehab, and 30min cool down. I don't train like a typical bodybuilder though.
I also dont always train like a typical bodybuilder. A lot more now than I used to, but still not traditional.
 
supermanjow

supermanjow

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Wish I had 1.5-2 hrs for gym time. I'm lucky to get 45 minutes missy days, but that's where 30-60s rest periods come in handy.
 

RAND0M1ZER

New member
Awards
0
I go through periods where I am drinking a whey shake after every workout and then sometimes when I don't even drink any whey during the day. I can't say that I've felt any difference in results. It is often hard to confirm a lot of these types of nutrition tips because the difference it makes in the short term is so negligible.
 
Jaar38

Jaar38

New member
Awards
0
While I know there is science has been shown that simple sugars/carbs are more necessary post workout (broscience?) than protein for optimal recovery, I have experimented with this by using products such as dark matter and MP recon and have found to be significantly more sore the day after my lift than when I consume either straight protein post workout or use a supplement like Universal's Torrent.

Any opinion on why this may be? Thanks

Also I am getting in 200+ grams of protein a day regardless so I do not personally believe my overall intake is a factor here.
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
While I know there is science has been shown that simple sugars/carbs are more necessary post workout (broscience?) than protein for optimal recovery, I
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=125599643
http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518

Post a few studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15277409
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17617942



For most of us who train with an intra-workout BCAA or pre-workout meal there is stil food overlap as i touched in the other thread, do we need to spike insulin? absolutely not, food is still digesting, aminos are still present, so do we really need simple carbs post-workout not really..

Could they be optimal .. sure why not? but remember the total calories/macros if meeting your protein/fat/fiber minimums on a daily basis are optimal for your goal.


more:

he postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.




More:

"ou do not need to neccessarily "spike" insulin for creatine to be maximally absorbed, but yes insulin is involved with the trasnsport.

FYI: The insulin and creatine studies I have seen up to this point have involved taking the glucose 30 minutes after the creatine. This may be because the insulin release from the dextrose doesn't entirely coincident with the pharmacokinetics of the creatine absorption.

Personally I think more consistent waves of insulin may be more anabolic than "spikes" anyway. This is because smoother waves of insulin more than likely affect ATP production more beneficially than "spikes" probably do. ATP is what rebuilds muscles and you want the most efficiency you can get here. I'm saying this because there is a delicate balance here between oxidative phosphorylation and lipogenesis (stimulated by acetyl COA carboxylase from HCO3-) in the mitochondrial in the presence of insulin. This "balance" I am talking about here is different for everyone though. Some people "shunt" over to lipgenesis so much sooner than other people. This has to do with other "global" processes happening in the body."

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319


The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulinlevels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204
 
Gutterpump

Gutterpump

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Wish I had 1.5-2 hrs for gym time. I'm lucky to get 45 minutes missy days, but that's where 30-60s rest periods come in handy.
Yeah I'm just getting older and need to put in the extra time for the sake of my joints/back now. Rehabing old injuries and pre-emptively avoiding new ones. There will be a point in almost everyone's training career where this will become somewhat necessary, for longevity's sake.
 
AntM1564

AntM1564

Legend
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yeah I'm just getting older and need to put in the extra time for the sake of my joints/back now. Rehabing old injuries and pre-emptively avoiding new ones. There will be a point in almost everyone's training career where this will become somewhat necessary, for longevity's sake.
I think one should start putting in the extra time ASAP. I am 25 and try to work on mobility daily. Even if it is something quick on a lifting day or going in on an off day just for foam rolling and stretching, it has been worth it.
 
Gutterpump

Gutterpump

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
I agree with your suggestion. I didn't work on mobility / stability / flexibility much, until it was too late and needed surgery.
 
supermanjow

supermanjow

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
While I know there is science has been shown that simple sugars/carbs are more necessary post workout (broscience?) than protein for optimal recovery, I have experimented with this by using products such as dark matter and MP recon and have found to be significantly more sore the day after my lift than when I consume either straight protein post workout or use a supplement like Universal's Torrent.

Any opinion on why this may be? Thanks

Also I am getting in 200+ grams of protein a day regardless so I do not personally believe my overall intake is a factor here.

Check out the article I posted. It has some great info in it regarding your questions.
 

RAND0M1ZER

New member
Awards
0
The shakes are just a convenience thing. Real food is better for you anyways since it will have actual nutrients and minerals in it.
Not to mention that you would have to drink a lot of shakes to get enough calories in for the day.
 
Jaar38

Jaar38

New member
Awards
0
All I have to say is wow! Thank you for this response. This was my first post/question on this board and I could not be happier than I am to receive such a well thought out and explained response. Thank you for taking your time to answer my question and thank you for ensuring that I remain a user of this site/forum. Repped
 

Similar threads


Top