Short Cycles of Bulking/Cutting

[ODoyle99]

Just recently saw that Layne Norton likes doing 4-6 weeks bouts of bulking (500 over maintenance) immediately followed by 2-3 weeks of cutting (500 under maintenance) to take advantage of metabolic swings that are the greatest in these time periods. Been looking around a lot but can't find a ton of opinions on this--and what I have found seems to be kinda mixed.

Wondering what yall thought about this route? Good way for slow and steady gains while staying fairly lean? Honestly I'm really tired of extended bulks and cuts and was thinking this could be a good alternative

 

[veaderko]

I would say give it a shot and see what happens.

The "old" way of bulking which is putting on a lot of weight and a lot of that being fat doesnt work for me a whole lot. My bulk period consisted of a TKD style diet with adding in only Mass Gainz for a while. Than when i hit the weight I wanted, I dropped the Mass Gainz and have gotten all shredded up for my next competition.

 

[ODoyle99]

I would say give it a shot and see what happens.

The "old" way of bulking which is putting on a lot of weight and a lot of that being fat doesnt work for me a whole lot. My bulk period consisted of a TKD style diet with adding in only Mass Gainz for a while. Than when i hit the weight I wanted, I dropped the Mass Gainz and have gotten all shredded up for my next competition.

Appreciate the reply man. Interesting style of bulking. How much of a surplus were you in and for how long? The Mass Gainz probably prevented you from ever going into ketosis, huh?
Sorry for the questions, I've just really had enough with the "old" way of bulking like you mentioned and am trying to find a good alternative for when I get my body fat down to where I want it

 

[AntM1564]

This article gives an insight on why the old school bulking ideas are not the best. It's a good read!

http://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking

 

[Gutterpump]

I am liking the idea of 4 weeks of cutting, 4 weeks of bulking, repeat.

 

[ODoyle99]

This article gives an insight on why the old school bulking ideas are not the best. It's a good read!

http://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking

Thanks for the link man! I agree with everything the article said; was definitely a good read.

How do you do bulking and cutting personally? What do you think of doing 4-6 weeks bulk (depending on how quickly weight is gained), 3-4 week cut, repeat?

I am liking the idea of 4 weeks of cutting, 4 weeks of bulking, repeat.

So far, same here. I hate doing either in the long term. I couldn't see a flaw with it so wanted some of yall's opinions.

 

[EWolfe08]

I also like that idea, definitely better then an all our 12-16 week bulk like I've done in the past! Speaking of Layne Norton, I think my next "bulk" will start off as reverse dieting, and I'll increase the carbs/calories and see what happens, obviously my goal will be to stay as lean as I can while increase my calories/carbs and eventually being able to grow, never done it exactly like this before so we'll see how it works. I'll begin this probably Beginning of August after my next two competition.

 

[Clipper83]

I personally find 2-3 months of bulking to be optimal, followed by a 1-2 months of recomp or cutting. The 4-6 weeks of bulking doesn't seem long enough, at 3 months, you could actually go through 3 full cycles of 5/3/1

Yeah bulking for long periods at a time is not the best way to go. I went from 173 up to 210 in the span of 8 months. Eating anything and everything during that time was fun, and the strength gains were great. However, right as I was about to start cutting, I got injured and was out of the gym for 3+ months with 2 surgeries. After I was able to train again, I realized I put on way more fat than I really wanted/needed. Took 6+ months of cutting(bottles used: OEP NF, Beta-Stim, Ripped CTail, Norcodrene, 2 tubs Alphamine, AMPilean), and I went from 195 all the way down to 164 at one point, with very only my squats not being better than before. I'm so used to eating huge amounts after that bulk that it takes me a lot to actually feel satiated, which I still struggle with.

 

[The Solution]

Just recently saw that Layne Norton likes doing 4-6 weeks bouts of bulking (500 over maintenance) immediately followed by 2-3 weeks of cutting (500 under maintenance) to take advantage of metabolic swings that are the greatest in these time periods. Been looking around a lot but can't find a ton of opinions on this--and what I have found seems to be kinda mixed.

That article is probably a good 3-4 years old.

cutting for a span of 3-4 weeks really wont be long enough to really tap into fat reserves or really shed fat, maybe get rid of some water in a few weeks, but to really dial down some fat you will need a longer/prolonged cutting diet. I would say at least 8-10 weeks would be a minimum for any kind of cut to really help shed some good fluff/fat, unless you stay lean year round.

 

[Wafflestomped]

I'll echo The Solution

I think if you are only going to run a 500 cal deficit you won't see much in 3-4 weeks. If you want to diet for that short of a period I think you need to cut calories further and implement other diet strategies to keep things moving along. You can look into Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fatloss Handbook for some good background and sciency stuff for large deficit diets.

Lyle's typical advice is to diet for 4-6 weeks (if you are already pretty lean) then go on maintenance for 2 weeks and continue to diet afterwards. This helps offset a lot of the hormonal adaptation that Lyle and Layne speak of, and it kind of works out to a cut-bulk-cut sort of of thing. More like cut-maintain-cut. I'm currently cutting and plan on going for 6 weeks, with a 2 week calorie ramp up, then continue cutting if i'm not where I want to be.

 

[The Solution]

I would not suggest UD 2.0 or rapid fatloss unless you have some good experience or know your body well
Putting someone on PSMF for 4+ days may be brutal . That is not for the weak.

 

[toddmuelheim]

I would not suggest UD 2.0 or rapid fatloss unless you have some good experience or know your body well Putting someone on PSMF for 4+ days may be brutal . That is not for the weak.

I second this. I did strict psmf a few years ago, like strict "I measure my sprays of PAM strict"...solution's advice is very spot on.

 

[Gutterpump]

I've been able to drop lots of weight in short periods doing low carb (keto) for 2 weeks before refeeding and repeating for 2 more weeks, as well as doing the Velocity Diet for 4 weeks with a slight 1 day refeed on the weekend. Both have been very effective if your training is also on point.

 

[Wafflestomped]

I would not suggest UD 2.0 or rapid fatloss unless you have some good experience or know your body well
Putting someone on PSMF for 4+ days may be brutal . That is not for the weak.

I concur. You definitely need to be in touch with your body and have experience dieting before going into something like RFL.

Aside from that, Lyle's books, both RFL and UD2 have a TON of information about how fatloss works as well as the hormonal effects that take place when dieting. I would actually suggest "A Guide to Flexible Dieting" if you want a comprehensive overview of how to approach a diet.

 

[The Solution]

I concur. You definitely need to be in touch with your body and have experience dieting before going into something like RFL.

Aside from that, Lyle's books, both RFL and UD2 have a TON of information about how fatloss works as well as the hormonal effects that take place when dieting. I would actually suggest "A Guide to Flexible Dieting" if you want a comprehensive overview of how to approach a diet.

I have all 3 of those books, His Keto Book, and A guide to flexible dieting as well, plus the stubborn fatloss solution with Tommy Jeffers on the front as Tommy was my trainer for about a year.

All great reads.

 

[ODoyle99]

That article is probably a good 3-4 years old.

cutting for a span of 3-4 weeks really wont be long enough to really tap into fat reserves or really shed fat, maybe get rid of some water in a few weeks, but to really dial down some fat you will need a longer/prolonged cutting diet. I would say at least 8-10 weeks would be a minimum for any kind of cut to really help shed some good fluff/fat, unless you stay lean year round.

"unless you stay lean year round." With this style, that would be the goal.
Going off of what Gutterpump said, 4 weeks in ketosis with only one refeed half way through, don't you think that'd be good enough to get off the fat put on by 4-6 weeks of a bulk? (and it'd be a clean bulk too)

Really appreciate everyone's help so far! My last bulk got way out of hand (too long, too high calories, too much junk) so I need to make a big change once I get my body fat down to where it needs to be.

 

[The Solution]

If your adding 4-6 pounds in 4 weeks that is a pretty steady and quick rate of gain, especially seeing you do not need to go keto to lose weight, You could easily lose some weight with a lot of carbs in your diet and meeting protein and fat minimums as well as fiber minimums. Staying lean year round is great, but you may find a hard pressed time making quality gains or progressive overload with short cycles of cutting and bulking and not allowing the body to really get into a surplus and really hammer out some quality gains in the offseason. Another reason why many competitiors do not do short cycle's of cutting and bulking, if they did they would never see much merit to progress and why many people take a good 2+ years off of competing to make improvements. Now for the general gym goer sure if you want to look lean year round it may work, but only giving yourself 4 weeks to try and grow is very hard and same with 4 weeks of cutting, you are basically going from keto (4 weeks) to throwing in a bunch of carbs (non-keto) that alone will spike your weight a few pounds because carbs hold 3g of water per g of carb.

Again the article is very outdated by Norton, he himself does not even use this on his own clients now and days. Layne knowing him personally has not been cutting or bulking in cycles and has been chasing his power lifting goals and has been eating good for a year + right now getting ready for nationals (power lifting meet) and his all time strongest.

If your last bulk got out of hand then you did not control your surplus and should of lowered it and took it longer.
Remember ROME IS NOT BUILT OVERNIGHT, take it slow. the Mirror > Scale, even if you dont gain weight one week that is not the make or break it all to your changes for the week and your caloric intake.

 

[Wafflestomped]

If your adding 4-6 pounds in 4 weeks that is a pretty steady and quick rate of gain, especially seeing you do not need to go keto to lose weight, You could easily lose some weight with a lot of carbs in your diet and meeting protein and fat minimums as well as fiber minimums. Staying lean year round is great, but you may find a hard pressed time making quality gains or progressive overload with short cycles of cutting and bulking and not allowing the body to really get into a surplus and really hammer out some quality gains in the offseason. Another reason why many competitiors do not do short cycle's of cutting and bulking, if they did they would never see much merit to progress and why many people take a good 2+ years off of competing to make improvements. Now for the general gym goer sure if you want to look lean year round it may work, but only giving yourself 4 weeks to try and grow is very hard and same with 4 weeks of cutting, you are basically going from keto (4 weeks) to throwing in a bunch of carbs (non-keto) that alone will spike your weight a few pounds because carbs hold 3g of water per g of carb.

Again the article is very outdated by Norton, he himself does not even use this on his own clients now and days. Layne knowing him personally has not been cutting or bulking in cycles and has been chasing his power lifting goals and has been eating good for a year + right now getting ready for nationals (power lifting meet) and his all time strongest.

If your last bulk got out of hand then you did not control your surplus and should of lowered it and took it longer.
Remember ROME IS NOT BUILT OVERNIGHT, take it slow. the Mirror > Scale, even if you dont gain weight one week that is not the make or break it all to your changes for the week and your caloric intake.

Eloquently said. Right on

 

[ODoyle99]

If your adding 4-6 pounds in 4 weeks that is a pretty steady and quick rate of gain, especially seeing you do not need to go keto to lose weight, You could easily lose some weight with a lot of carbs in your diet and meeting protein and fat minimums as well as fiber minimums. Staying lean year round is great, but you may find a hard pressed time making quality gains or progressive overload with short cycles of cutting and bulking and not allowing the body to really get into a surplus and really hammer out some quality gains in the offseason. Another reason why many competitiors do not do short cycle's of cutting and bulking, if they did they would never see much merit to progress and why many people take a good 2+ years off of competing to make improvements. Now for the general gym goer sure if you want to look lean year round it may work, but only giving yourself 4 weeks to try and grow is very hard and same with 4 weeks of cutting, you are basically going from keto (4 weeks) to throwing in a bunch of carbs (non-keto) that alone will spike your weight a few pounds because carbs hold 3g of water per g of carb.

Again the article is very outdated by Norton, he himself does not even use this on his own clients now and days. Layne knowing him personally has not been cutting or bulking in cycles and has been chasing his power lifting goals and has been eating good for a year + right now getting ready for nationals (power lifting meet) and his all time strongest.

If your last bulk got out of hand then you did not control your surplus and should of lowered it and took it longer.
Remember ROME IS NOT BUILT OVERNIGHT, take it slow. the Mirror > Scale, even if you dont gain weight one week that is not the make or break it all to your changes for the week and your caloric intake.

Okay, good points. Thanks for taking the time to respond to me man, it's much appreciated!
So no keto for the cutting phase, and both phases need to be longer.
Earlier you said 8-10 weeks of cutting. How about for bulking? 8-10 weeks? Of course that'd be a baseline, if it was a slow bulk I could extend it or if it was faster than intended I could extend the cut. Short enough to stay relatively lean throughout but long enough to see progress?

 

[Gutterpump]

I should also state that I wouldn't personally try these short bursts while natural. I'm also on TRT, but I rarely do recomps in a natural state.

 

[ODoyle99]

I should also state that I wouldn't personally try these short bursts while natural. I'm also on TRT, but I rarely do recomps in a natural state.

Ah, got it. What would you think of 8-10 weeks of one followed by the other? Seems short enough to not do too much damage on the physique (fat gain on bulk / muscle loss on cut) but long enough to get results.

 

[The Solution]

Okay, good points. Thanks for taking the time to respond to me man, it's much appreciated!
So no keto for the cutting phase, and both phases need to be longer.
Earlier you said 8-10 weeks of cutting. How about for bulking? 8-10 weeks? Of course that'd be a baseline, if it was a slow bulk I could extend it or if it was faster than intended I could extend the cut. Short enough to stay relatively lean throughout but long enough to see progress?

Don't use time as a measurement
Use the mirror

 

[ODoyle99]

Don't use time as a measurement
Use the mirror

Alright, that's what I'll do. I'll use 2 months as a VERY rough guideline, and of course extend or cut short based on the mirror.

Really appreciate your help! Wish I could offer more than measly reps

 

[jarod86]

Just recently saw that Layne Norton likes doing 4-6 weeks bouts of bulking (500 over maintenance) immediately followed by 2-3 weeks of cutting (500 under maintenance) to take advantage of metabolic swings that are the greatest in these time periods. Been looking around a lot but can't find a ton of opinions on this--and what I have found seems to be kinda mixed. Wondering what yall thought about this route? Good way for slow and steady gains while staying fairly lean? Honestly I'm really tired of extended bulks and cuts and was thinking this could be a good alternative

Just putting it out there:
I heard that by repeated mini bulk periods (e.g. Few weeks) followed mini cuts - you put your hormonal balance out of whack.

From experience I agree with most other opinions here 2-3 even 6 months clean bulk followed by a couple months protein HIGH cut/re-comp.