Dietary Carb vs Fat; which will result in more fat storage

[d2thez]

Ok so I am not the most versed at all of this and I hear everything from calories are all that matters to carbs matter and fats aren't bad. I AM smart enough to know that neither is probably entirely true or false.

What interests me is the following hypothetical scenario. I am an active person who works out 5-6 days a week, mostly weight training and am always pushing myself. Assuming I am eating a bit excess in calories to grow muscle, which if the following would result in more actual fat accumulation in cells; 1000 calories of dietary fat or 1000 calories of ingested carbs?

I ask because to me it creates a bit of a conundrum knowing the fat has basically no thermogenic effect while in carbs it varies, but carbs spike insulin while fats don't. Which is the preferred choice here?

 

[The Solution]

Anything in a Surplus is stored. Period
If your surplus is 1000 kcals its just too large Period. Overthinking this buddy.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Ok so I am not the most versed at all of this and I hear everything from calories are all that matters to carbs matter and fats aren't bad. I AM smart enough to know that neither is probably entirely true or false.

What interests me is the following hypothetical scenario. I am an active person who works out 5-6 days a week, mostly weight training and am always pushing myself. Assuming I am eating a bit excess in calories to grow muscle, which if the following would result in more actual fat accumulation in cells; 1000 calories of dietary fat or 1000 calories of ingested carbs?

I ask because to me it creates a bit of a conundrum knowing the fat has basically no thermogenic effect while in carbs it varies, but carbs spike insulin while fats don't. Which is the preferred choice here?

If you want to understand the science behind carb/fat priority in metabolism of energy search youtube for DH Keifer. Short answer is as long as you have carbs in your bloodstream fat will notbe used for energy. Fat in the absence of carbs can be burned quiet well, depending on your ketogenic state.

 

[AntM1564]

Anything in a Surplus is stored. Period
If your surplus is 1000 kcals its just too large Period. Overthinking this buddy.

This. You can eat nothing but lean protein and veggies, but if you're taking in more than you're burning, you'll gain.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

This. You can eat nothing but lean protein and veggies, but if you're taking in more than you're burning, you'll gain.

yup 500 max, probably closer to 200 or less for most guys.

 

[RecompMan]

This. You can eat nothing but lean protein and veggies, but if you're taking in more than you're burning, you'll gain.

Yes but overall look at the thermogenic effect of food.

1000 calorie surplus from carbs and protein will contribute less than 1000 calories from fat.

Also based on de novo lipogenesis. But I wouldn't recommend ever doing a huge surplus like that so long term probably won't matter too too much man

But if singling out macros for an all day **** fest. I'd rather over eat in carbs and proteins then all 3 at the same time

 

[Bnatural]

Yes but overall look at the thermogenic effect of food.

1000 calorie surplus from carbs and protein will contribute less than 1000 calories from fat.

Also based on de novo lipogenesis. But I wouldn't recommend ever doing a huge surplus like that so long term probably won't matter too too much man

But if singling out macros for an all day **** fest. I'd rather over eat in carbs and proteins then all 3 at the same time

Agreed.
Also to OP
You need to monitor your progress. Eating in excess without monitoring your intake is going to result in horrible gains. You want gain that will stick to your muscle not your abs.
Focus on slowly increasing calories as you reach your offseason goals. Also be sure to monitor the effect of your progress.
If you are gaining mostly in the midsection, something isn't working.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

But if singling out macros for an all day **** fest. I'd rather over eat in carbs and proteins then all 3 at the same time

I'd rather over eat fat and proteins, allow you to be anabolic without insulin resistance. Better lean gains

 

[mikespe]

This is a great link to show you how to calculate calories & macros. I learned the long way instead of these calculators....which some are pretty good...but it's always good to know what makes those calorie calculators work:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=156380403

 

[The Solution]

I'd rather over eat fat and proteins, allow you to be anabolic without insulin resistance. Better lean gains

Eating more protein is not beneficial, once you meet your minimums again anything in excess is stored
more protein does not = more gains.
Carbs are more protein sparing in a caloric surplus.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Eating more protein is not beneficial, once you meet your minimums again anything in excess is stored
more protein does not = more gains.
Carbs are more protein sparing in a caloric surplus.

Yeah I didnt clarify, I was saying id rather do fat than carbs. Fat is also protein sparing/anabolic in surplus, but studies show low carb is leaner that low fat.

 

[The Solution]

Yeah I didnt clarify, I was saying id rather do fat than carbs. Fat is also protein sparing/anabolic in surplus, but studies show low carb is leaner that low fat.

Depends on the individual and how they respond to high doses of fat or carbs
For me
anything over 60-70g of fat daily and i am a bloated mess, and look awful.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Depends on the individual and how they respond to high doses of fat..l.

Not really if done correctly. Long list of studies pretty clear the low fat craze is why this generation is the fattest in history. Fat is what we are built to burn. Fat gets a bad rap because when mixed with carbs your body always prefers carbs. Take away the carbs it burns like jet fuel. If theres any doubt pour a pint of bacon fat on a fire, tell me thats not explosive energy

http://tomnikkola.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Low-Carb-vs-Low-Fat.pdf

 

[Here2Learn33]

I hate how fat gets a bad rap because saturated fat helps with hormone production like testosterone! Energy in vs out is what defines fat gain and/or loss

 

[RecompMan]

Depends on the individual and how they respond to high doses of fat or carbs For me anything over 60-70g of fat daily and i am a bloated mess, and look awful.

Met to. But only in presence of carbs

 

[RecompMan]

I'd rather over eat fat and proteins, allow you to be anabolic without insulin resistance. Better lean gains

fats can still cause insulin resistance however in different ways. There's so much that goes into it.

Fat isn't bad and can be good on a diet and help correct insulin resistance but there are some issues that arise especially with out exercise

 

[RecompMan]

Eating more protein is not beneficial, once you meet your minimums again anything in excess is stored more protein does not = more gains. Carbs are more protein sparing in a caloric surplus.

I just like to eat real food. I'm a steak and tater guy

I'll go for the extra serving of meat over carbs. Even if it skyrockets protein intake. I'm not eating protein to hit my macros. I'm eating it bc I love it haha

 

[RecompMan]

Yeah I didnt clarify, I was saying id rather do fat than carbs. Fat is also protein sparing/anabolic in surplus, but studies show low carb is leaner that low fat.

Studies also show that moderat carb diets can be catabolic too. I'll have to dig that one up

Fat increases insulin release as well as carbs but via GIP

 

[RecompMan]

I hate how fat gets a bad rap because saturated fat helps with hormone production like testosterone! Energy in vs out is what defines fat gain and/or loss

No no.

Definitely no. It's a start. But too many other things are involved in the metabolic pathways for fat loss

Nutritional biochem is just not that simple

 

[sheepdog.tx]

I'll go for the extra serving of meat over carbs. Even if it skyrockets protein intake.

Agreed. The argument about you can only digest X number of grams of protein has been disproven. Another thing often missed is protein digestion rates. Say you eat a chef salad. Theres egg, ham, bacon, bean, dairy, and other misc proteins, all digesting at different rates. They dont log jam, they spike protein synthesis (assuming enough leucine from the egg and/or meat) then trickle in over many hours. Why carbs are considered so anabolic isn't just cause they spike insulin but because in the presence of carbs you will burn almost exclusively carbs til they are gone, meaning that fat doesnt have a chance to be consumed as energy and thus is stored.

 

[bolt10]

In on over simplified carbs are bad thread.


Eats 400g of carbs a day and lean as ____ crew checking in.

 

[bdcc]

I'd rather over eat fat and proteins, allow you to be anabolic without insulin resistance. Better lean gains

Lean from overeating fat, not carbs?

Simply because I like playing devil's advocate...

"Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage.

Results:​ Both the amount and composition of food eaten influence body-weight regulation. The purpose of this study was to determine whether and by what mechanism excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate. We overfed isoenergetic amounts (50% above energy requirements) of fat and carbohydrate (for 14 d each) to nine lean and seven obese men. A whole-room calorimeter was used to measure energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation on days 0, 1, 7, and 14 of each overfeeding period. From energy and nutrient balances (intake-expenditure) we estimated the amount and composition of energy stored. Carbohydrate overfeeding produced progressive increases in carbohydrate oxidation and total energy expenditure resulting in 75-85% of excess energy being stored. Alternatively, fat overfeeding had minimal effects on fat oxidation and total energy expenditure, leading to storage of 90-95% of excess energy. Excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate, and the difference was greatest early in the overfeeding period."

Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: d... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[RecompMan]

Lean from overeating fat, not carbs? Simply because I like playing devil's advocate... "Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage. Results: Both the amount and composition of food eaten influence body-weight regulation. The purpose of this study was to determine whether and by what mechanism excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate. We overfed isoenergetic amounts (50% above energy requirements) of fat and carbohydrate (for 14 d each) to nine lean and seven obese men. A whole-room calorimeter was used to measure energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation on days 0, 1, 7, and 14 of each overfeeding period. From energy and nutrient balances (intake-expenditure) we estimated the amount and composition of energy stored. Carbohydrate overfeeding produced progressive increases in carbohydrate oxidation and total energy expenditure resulting in 75-85% of excess energy being stored. Alternatively, fat overfeeding had minimal effects on fat oxidation and total energy expenditure, leading to storage of 90-95% of excess energy. Excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate, and the difference was greatest early in the overfeeding period." Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: d... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

Thank you fior this.

 

[The Solution]

Not really if done correctly. Long list of studies pretty clear the low fat craze is why this generation is the fattest in history. Fat is what we are built to burn. Fat gets a bad rap because when mixed with carbs your body always prefers carbs. Take away the carbs it burns like jet fuel. If theres any doubt pour a pint of bacon fat on a fire, tell me thats not explosive energy

http://tomnikkola.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Low-Carb-vs-Low-Fat.pdf

Well my body states differently than the study you told me
I know personally that if i go higher fat i get
bloated
my energy sucks
my gym performance suffers

ill take that over a "Study" anyday.

I know my body better than one study, and as ben pointed out there is another to counter your argument.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Lean from overeating fat, not carbs?

Simply because I like playing devil's advocate...

"Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage.

Results:​ Both the amount and composition of food eaten influence body-weight regulation. The purpose of this study was to determine whether and by what mechanism excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate. We overfed isoenergetic amounts (50% above energy requirements) of fat and carbohydrate (for 14 d each) to nine lean and seven obese men. A whole-room calorimeter was used to measure energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation on days 0, 1, 7, and 14 of each overfeeding period. From energy and nutrient balances (intake-expenditure) we estimated the amount and composition of energy stored. Carbohydrate overfeeding produced progressive increases in carbohydrate oxidation and total energy expenditure resulting in 75-85% of excess energy being stored. Alternatively, fat overfeeding had minimal effects on fat oxidation and total energy expenditure, leading to storage of 90-95% of excess energy. Excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate, and the difference was greatest early in the overfeeding period."

Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: d... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

Over eating any macro, even protein, will lead to fat accumulation. The point is interaction between fat and carbs as well as how carbs cause insulin resistance. If you look at the link i send 18 studies show lower carb surpasses low fat for weight loss.

 

[RecompMan]

Over eating any macro, even protein, will lead to fat accumulation. The point is interaction between fat and carbs as well as how carbs cause insulin resistance. If you look at the link i send 18 studies show lower carb surpasses low fat for weight loss.

Different strokes different folks

I'm a keto guy last 6-8 weeks dieting

 

[bdcc]

Over eating any macro, even protein, will lead to fat accumulation. The point is interaction between fat and carbs as well as how carbs cause insulin resistance. If you look at the link i send 18 studies show lower carb surpasses low fat for weight loss.

You need to be very careful extrapolating conclusions from those.

Look again and you will notice how many of them don't standardise protein intake. In terms of measuring body composition this is a huge flaw.

You cannot conclude low carbs are better, you can conclude low carbs are better if you also ingest more protein which isn't very surprising.

I am not necessarily an advocate of higher carb low fat dieting. I am just pointing out that you are suggesting rigid conclusions where they are in fact much more debatable.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

You need to be very careful extrapolating conclusions from those.

Look again and you will notice how many of them don't standardise protein intake. In terms of measuring body composition this is a huge flaw.

You cannot conclude low carbs are better, you can conclude low carbs are better if you also ingest more protein which isn't very surprising.

I am not necessarily an advocate of higher carb low fat dieting. I am just pointing out that you are suggesting rigid conclusions where they are in fact much more debatable.

Actually in nearly every one of those studies the protein intake is well defined either in numbers or percentages. High fat/low carb can be very good too. But hey what do you I know? Ask DH Kiefer who write Carb Nite and Carb Backloading and did tons of research on the studies. Or Lyle McDonald.. or the folks on KetoGains.. or the Mauro DiPasquale who wrote the Anabolic Diet.

Or you could continue to shovel down government subsided corn and wheat, your GMO oats in your shake, low GI carbs like sweet potatoes before bed, etc, I dont care but the studies are clear. As soon as we shifted from a high fat, moderate protein diet in America to a lower fat high grain diet obesity, diabetes, and heart attacks skyrocketed.

 

[RecompMan]

It was more as we shifted to ****ty food. Not so much carb intake

Availability and surplus poor choices lead us to that


IMO macro timing is more important. Be it low carb high carb low fat high fat

Remember people are gluttons. We can eat a traditional diet lose weight and be healthy

Others outside if this community may not be able to.

I've read, and own a lot of those books you mention.


But I go about it all in a different way. Intake from each and blend to my own
M

 

[PuZo]

Have a balanced diet = problem solved...

 

[bdcc]

Actually in nearly every one of those studies the protein intake is well defined either in numbers or percentages. High fat/low carb can be very good too. But hey what do you I know? Ask DH Kiefer who write Carb Nite and Carb Backloading and did tons of research on the studies. Or Lyle McDonald.. or the folks on KetoGains.. or the Mauro DiPasquale who wrote the Anabolic Diet.

Or you could continue to shovel down government subsided corn and wheat, your GMO oats in your shake, low GI carbs like sweet potatoes before bed, etc, I dont care but the studies are clear. As soon as we shifted from a high fat, moderate protein diet in America to a lower fat high grain diet obesity, diabetes, and heart attacks skyrocketed.

You are not debating objectively anymore.

When I said protein wasn't standardised I mean it is often not equal between the low carb and low fat groups. This is a confounding variable which cannot be overlooked. In many of them, the low carb group also consumes a higher percentage of calories from protein which would aid weight loss and lean tissue gain/retention.

 

[bolt10]

This thread. Lol

I'd comment but Ben just keeps saying what I'd say.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

You are not debating objectively anymore.

When I said protein wasn't standardised I mean it is often not equal between the low carb and low fat groups. This is a confounding variable which cannot be overlooked. In many of them, the low carb group also consumes a higher percentage of calories from protein which would aid weight loss and lean tissue gain/retention.

True enough but whats the standard of protein? Even among bodybuilders, studies, usda guidelines, etc etc that varies. I dont think anyones recommended a low protein diet, almost all diets are a restriction of carbs and/or fats.

In fact very little protein is needed for muscle building. For example studies have shown post workout supplementing leucine dramatically reduces the amount of protein needed. Even the standard generic whey scoop is around 20-25g of protein, not much more than a few ounces of meat or cheese.

In those studies while the low fat group may not have been equal protein certainly they had enough and surplus protein in the low carb group would have hurt weight loss. In fact too much protein will break ketosis.

So my point is even high fat, ultra low carb, moderate fat is a viable option for both weight loss and lean muscle gains. The standard yolo-bro diet of lean chicken and brown rice CAN work but so could a diet of big macs and cheetos. In fact in the evening low GI, complex carbs are worse than simple because you go to bed with carbs still unprocessed which will turn to fat rather than uptake into muscles and the sugar will blow your GH release.

 

[bdcc]

lol.

For anyone who is open minded and genuinely wants to learn, here is a thought provoking article.

http://www.maxcondition.com/page.php?152

 

[sheepdog.tx]

lol.

For anyone who is open minded and genuinely wants to learn, here is a thought provoking article.

http://www.maxcondition.com/page.php?152

Counterpoint: http://athlete.io/4739/eat-fat-burn-fat/

 

[bdcc]

Honestly, I think the article is flawed. I think anyone well versed in evidence based nutrition will pick up the same issues.

For example, discussing insulin management and hypothesising how that will effect the end point weight loss when we have chronic research already in place which refutes this.

I have no intention of trying to convince you to change your nutrition plan. I simply quoted your first post because you implied carbs would be more fattening than dietary fat when this isn't the case.

 

[Johnston]

But what does low/high fat or carb even mean anyway? What's high for one person is low for another, and vice versa. Everyone is different, so all the studies in the world aren't really that useful IMO. You have to find what works best for YOU!

 

[sheepdog.tx]

I have no intention of trying to convince you to change your nutrition plan. I simply quoted your first post because you implied carbs would be more fattening than dietary fat when this isn't the case.

You're not arguing with me on "my" plan, you're arguing against multiple double blind scientic studies. If you had a like number of studies sayign low fat is better than low carb you would post them but you haven't cause they dont exist. You're just posting a single abstract without any number of participants, ratios, or pretty much any detail which is little more than speculation. So you feel you know better than scientific method, ok thats you're choice. Nor am i saying youre way wont work, I trust very much that it does. But I trust in the results of studies and the huge results i see in the Keto and Ketogains community. Even in basic bodybuilding its understood cutting carbs equals to less fat gain.

 

[The Solution]

cutting calories = to less fat gain, not carbs.
I love how carbs get a bad wrap, yet people praise keto when in reality carbs are more protein sparing when minimums are met
Help with t3, leptin and hormone levels, and also help with increased fat loss (think refeeds)

But hey.. to each their own.
I dont need a study to tell me what works for my body. People get too caught up in studies when in reality hard work and consistency trumps reading a piece of paper.

 

[bdcc]

You're not arguing with me on "my" plan, you're arguing against multiple double blind scientic studies. If you had a like number of studies sayign low fat is better than low carb you would post them but you haven't cause they dont exist. You're just posting a single abstract without any number of participants, ratios, or pretty much any detail which is little more than speculation. So you feel you know better than scientific method, ok thats you're choice. Nor am i saying youre way wont work, I trust very much that it does. But I trust in the results of studies and the huge results i see in the Keto and Ketogains community. Even in basic bodybuilding its understood cutting carbs equals to less fat gain.

This is false. I linked an article (like you did) that had several references in with discussion on the study design.

I actually follow low carb nutrition so am only arguing objectively. You make carbs out to be the devil with low carb diets always being superior. In terms of literature this simply isn't the case. If you honestly think this is the case I suggest going back and reading the article I posted again.

 

[bdcc]

cutting calories = to less fat gain, not carbs.
I love how carbs get a bad wrap, yet people praise keto when in reality carbs are more protein sparing when minimums are met
Help with t3, leptin and hormone levels, and also help with increased fat loss (think refeeds)

But hey.. to each their own.
I dont need a study to tell me what works for my body. People get too caught up in studies when in reality hard work and consistency trumps reading a piece of paper.

I tend to agree with this. I like debating anyone who makes blanket statements about which diet is best.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

You make carbs out to be the devil with low carb diets always being superior. In terms of literature this simply isn't the case.

Exactly, in "literature" ie someones opinion. What do the studies I posted show? I suggest going back and reading the what I posted again.

 

[bdcc]

Exactly, in "literature" ie someones opinion. What do the studies I posted show? I suggest going back and reading the what I posted again.

The majority show that low carb nutrition with a higher protein intake is better for weight loss. I have stated this already.

All I am pointing out is that there are flaws in the research so saying one method is best as an absolute is a leap of faith. I don't necessarily think low carb nutrition is bad or worse than low fat, simply pointing out that it would be misleading for people to be dogmatic about low carb nutrition.

 

[bolt10]

Lol this is like talking to a brick wall.



I don't mind because it's giving me good research to read though.

 

[The Solution]

The majority show that low carb nutrition with a higher protein intake is better for weight loss. I have stated this already.
.

The thing is this
the overall caloric intake has to be varied from person to person
Volume, Frequency, Cardio are other factors that are not very applicable to studies we research or read or those of us who are bodybuilders, or for people who use enhancing supplements

it really has very little merit.

 

[bdcc]

Lol this is like talking to a brick wall.



I don't mind because it's giving me good research to read though.

I like questioning people who give absolutes when it comes to nutritional recommendations. The people who do this to me are those who open my eyes the most.

Someone, somewhere will have read through this and understood the pros and cons of each. I don't think that person is sheepdog though who seems to be taking this more personally.

 

[bdcc]

The thing is this
the overall caloric intake has to be varied from person to person
Volume, Frequency, Cardio are other factors that are not very applicable to studies we research or read or those of us who are bodybuilders, or for people who use enhancing supplements

it really has very little merit.

I did a video on dieting methodologies.

Step 1, determine caloric intake.
Step 2, determine protein intake based on Eric Helms's most recent review.
Step 3, experiment with everything else lol.

I wasn't prepared to tell people how many times to eat per day, what macronutrient ratios should be used etc because there is no clear answer.

I am like you, experiment to see what works (and don't make it sound like one approach is universally better than another).

 

[bolt10]

I'm not as opened minded...no carbs no care.


Notsrs.

 

[bdcc]

I'm not as opened minded...no carbs no care.


Notsrs.

Low carb is best for me in terms of dietary adherence, that is the main reason I stick with it.

It might be from my carb cycling background, now when I eat even simple things like potatoes I immediately think I am about to start a mammoth sized refeed and my cravings go through the roof lol.

 

[bolt10]

Low carb is best for me in terms of dietary adherence, that is the main reason I stick with it. It might be from my carb cycling background, now when I eat even simple things like potatoes I immediately think I am about to start a mammoth sized refeed and my cravings go through the roof lol.

Ya I have some clients like that. It's all about individual situations and reactions to determine it.


I know for myself I don't do well when carbs aren't high.