Uh oh...

JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Looks like possible bad news for the IF crowd

Dietary Protein Distribution Positively
Influences 24-h Muscle Protein Synthesis in
Healthy Adults

Abstract

The RDA for protein describes the quantity that should be consumed daily to meet population needs and to prevent deficiency. Protein consumption in many countries exceeds the RDA; however, intake is often skewed toward the evening meal, whereas breakfast is typically carbohydrate rich and low in protein. We examined the effects of protein distribution on 24-h skeletal muscle protein synthesis in healthy adult men and women (n = 8; age: 36.9 6 3.1 y; BMI: 25.7 6 0.8 kg/ m2). By using a 7-d crossover feeding design with a 30-d washout period, we measured changes in muscle protein synthesis in response to isoenergetic and isonitrogenous diets with protein at breakfast, lunch, and dinner distributed evenly (EVEN; 31.5 6 1.3, 29.9 6 1.6, and 32.7 6 1.6 g protein, respectively) or skewed (SKEW; 10.7 6 0.8, 16.0 6 0.5, and 63.4 6 3.7 g protein, respectively). Over 24-h periods on days 1 and 7, venous blood samples and vastus lateralis muscle biopsy samples were obtained during primed (2.0 mmol/kg) constant infusion [0.06 mmol/(kgmin)] of L-[ring-13C6] phenylalanine. The 24-h mixed muscle protein fractional synthesis rate was 25% higher in the EVEN (0.075 6 0.006%/h) vs. the SKEW (0.056 6 0.006%/h) protein distribution groups (P = 0.003). This pattern was maintained after 7 d of habituation to each diet (EVEN vs. SKEW: 0.077 6 0.006 vs. 0.056 6 0.006%/h; P = 0.001). The consumption of a moderate amount of protein at each meal stimulated 24-h muscle protein synthesis more effectively than skewing protein intake toward the evening meal.
 
Piston Honda

Piston Honda

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I guess people should go back to eating when they're hungry! Oh nature.
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
Evening Meal?
ok great.. that doesnt really tell us how well we should space out our feedings or how often we should eat (timing wise) there really was no specific evidence regarding that or proper timing of meals in the 24 hours (like in Laynes MPS Study). That is a blank statement. I still spread my meals out around 4 hours or so which Layne does recommend for MPS

IF is not all about eating 1 single meal or 1 large meal. Many people still IF and eat 3 meals which is fine. (and what martin does reccomend)
 
JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
So just eat protein at each meal. That's all the study is really saying, correct?.
it is suggesting that it may be better to evenly distribute your protein intake across all of your meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) as opposed to consuming the majority of it at once in the evening
 
RecompMan

RecompMan

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
it is suggesting that it may be better to evenly distribute your protein intake across all of your meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) as opposed to consuming the majority of it at once in the evening
But what's the main contributor to mps? Leucine... So it's apparent leucine content was higher in thee higher protein meal
 
JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Evening Meal?
ok great.. that doesnt really tell us how well we should space out our feedings or how often we should eat (timing wise) there really was no specific evidence regarding that or proper timing of meals in the 24 hours
Neither I nor the researchers claimed any of these so not sure where you are drawing them from? All the researchers are concluding is that it might be best if you space protein intake throughout the day as opposed to getting the bulk of it in the evening.

(like in Laynes MPS Study). That is a blank statement. I still spread my meals out around 4 hours or so which Layne does recommend for MPS
Layne Nortons hypothesis (note: it is his hypothesis, not a study. As far as I know he has yet to perform one demonstrating this - http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf ) is partially based of this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657 and has been critiqued by a few individuals (including your favorite author Aragon ;) ). In the Paddon-Jones study they fed participants an in-between the meal supplement (30g CHO & 15g EAA) to half and a placebo to the other half and found that the ones who consumed the in-between meal supplement had a greater anabolic response than the group that did not receive the supplement. Layne uses this to help form his hypothesis but a major flaw with the Padon-Jones study is that they failed to control for macro intake. The placebo group got 64g PRO/day while the experimental group got 109g PRO/day. It is pretty easy to guess why the experimental group had a great anabolic response (MOAR PROTEIN).

IF is not all about eating 1 single meal or 1 large meal. Many people still IF and eat 3 meals which is fine. (and what martin does reccomend)
Agreed but unfortunately many have limited their evening feeding sessions into only 2-3.

Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe EBF Inc has experimented with this too
 
RecompMan

RecompMan

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Neither I nor the researchers claimed any of these so not sure where you are drawing them from? All the researchers are concluding is that it might be best if you space protein intake throughout the day as opposed to getting the bulk of it in the evening.

Layne Nortons hypothesis (note: it is his hypothesis, not a study. As far as I know he has yet to perform one demonstrating this - http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf ) is partially based of this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657 and has been critiqued by a few individuals (since as your favorite author Aragon ;) ). In the Paddon-Jones study they fed participants a between the meal supplement (30g CHO & 15g EAA) to half and a placebo to the other half and found that the ones who consumed the in-between meal supplement had a greater anabolic response than the group that did not receive the supplement. Layne uses this to help form his hypothesis but a major flaw with the Padon-Jones study is that they failed to control for macro intake. The placebo group got 64g PRO/day while the experimental group got 109g PRO/day. It is pretty easy to guess why the experimental group had a great anabolic response (MOAR PROTEIN).

Agreed but unfortunately many have limited their evening feeding sessions into only 2-3.

Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe EBF Inc has experimented with this too
I do, peak week with 1 meal a day, refeed every 3.

Aminos every few hours

I personally can't do multiple meals. Even 3 is trouble for me BC that cuts my intake and my appetite is too big
 
JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Anyway, I am simply sharing what the recent research is showing, didn't really make any real comment besides the "looks like possible bad news". Honestly the study probably has very little significance to us.

If you look at the full text you see the evenly distributed group (EVEN) had 31g, 29.9g, 32g for their 3 meals while the ones who got the majority of their protein in the evening (SKEW) had 10g, 16g, 63g for their 3 meals. With only 1 of the SKEW groups meals hitting leucine threshold (63g) and all 3 of the EVEN groups meals hitting leucine threshold, I am not surprised that the EVEN group experienced greater muscle protein synthesis than the SKEW group.

That said the study is still interesting. I hope someone follows up with a similar one but this time up the total protein intake (current study participants only got 90-94g of protein/day) and have the lower protein meals hit the leucine threshold. For example they could do 30g, 30g, 120g vs. 60g, 60g, 60g.
 
JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
That's why leucine rich bcaa are consumed
since reading this paper - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/241126-whey-leucine-moar.html - I am not entirely sure leucine alone is enough. It appears you also need a decent amount of substrate with your leucine.

This also is something I would see research on though. If we have one group consume enough leucine to hit threshold twice in the morning and then have a huge meal in the evening and compare it to a group that has a normal day of eating. Match macronutrient and calories and see what happens. Ahhh.. so many options that I can do my dissertation on ;)

But what's the main contributor to mps? Leucine... So it's apparent leucine content was higher in thee higher protein meal
Yup! See my post above. The EVEN group hit leucine threshold 3 times while the SKEW group only hit it once. Pretty easy explanation for why the researchers observed a greater MPS in EVEN
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe EBF Inc has experimented with this too
I Agree here, but i still like to spread mine out quite a bit and not save all my protein for one meal
I always spread it out and distribute evenly and since i have compared to 2 meals ive seen a better change, even a better change then when i use to be bro and ate 6 meals a day feeling hungry all the time, and having less performance in the gym. Since ive moved to 3 i have found better body comp, better performance, and superior appetite control.
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
Research is great as both you and I know, but in the end we take it with a grain of salt and apply it to see how it treats us and adjust based off what our body shows.
Especially in this day and age with meal frequency, supplements, timing etc, and how they can vast and how different people get amazing results of different things.
 
john.patterson

john.patterson

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
there are articles for and against almost every strategy in diet and exercise. do what fits you best. i personally love IF. i've been staying lean and gaining muscle. i don't need a study to tell me to change my thinking. find what works for you
 

kisaj

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I have been doing a version of IF that has worked amazing and I won't ever go back. I eat in a 8 hour window, skip breakfast, and I don't pay attention to it being 3 meals or 6 meals, I just pay attention to staying in that window and inline with my macros. I tend to eat higher proteins in the earlier part of the day and heavier in carbs in the evening.

I've lost 6 lbs in 6 weeks and strength has gone up considerably. I've broke through multiple PRs in the last month.
 
john.patterson

john.patterson

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
That's awesome man. I'm loving IF, been doing it for almost a full year now. Its great being able to eat big meals and still get lean
 

kisaj

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
That is the best part. I don't feel like I am even doing anything, yet the fat is shedding and the strength gains continue to climb.
 
john.patterson

john.patterson

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
That is the best part. I don't feel like I am even doing anything, yet the fat is shedding and the strength gains continue to climb.
Exactly! And after a while fasting in the morning becomes so easy. You don't even get hungry or notice it. Its beautiful
 

kisaj

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yep, it took me about a week or two, but now I don't even think about food until 11ish and I train at 9:30am, so it works perfectly.
 
JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
 
Sean1332

Sean1332

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Yep, it took me about a week or two, but now I don't even think about food until 11ish and I train at 9:30am, so it works perfectly.
I started carb backloading recently. I thought hunger and energy was gonna kill me throughout the day but I was actually surprised it didn't!

I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
Yuck. That'd do the opossite for me. I'd have to eat food to get rid of the damn taste!
 

kisaj

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I find myself having to be conscious of not being the annoying, "You have to try this.." guy. But everytime someone starts talking about diets and eating, I keep wanting to bring it up. It's exciting.
 
Ristonian

Ristonian

New member
Awards
0
I have been doing a version of IF that has worked amazing and I won't ever go back. I eat in a 8 hour window, skip breakfast, and I don't pay attention to it being 3 meals or 6 meals, I just pay attention to staying in that window and inline with my macros. I tend to eat higher proteins in the earlier part of the day and heavier in carbs in the evening. I've lost 6 lbs in 6 weeks and strength has gone up considerably. I've broke through multiple PRs in the last month.
Carbs in the evening? Insulin will be up and gh will be down yo.
 
jswain34

jswain34

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Isn't one of the guidelines of IF to get around .5 of your total daily protein in the fast breaking meal? I know when i consume 3 meals a day its a large fast break of about .5 daily kcal + .5 daily protein intake then a small afternoon and another large evening meal. Wouldn't that large bolus in the initial fast break help with the mps due to the large resulting amino pool?
 

kisaj

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I break my fast with a protein shake or eggs and a BCAA drink. On workout days I get in about 200-250g of carbs and consume about half after a workout and then consume very little in my other daily meals and then have 1/3 with my last meal.

I will be honest that I am sure you could get as complicated as you wanted but the whole reason I decided to do this was for ease of use. No thinking and no worrying about eating all the time. It just happens to be a very nice side effect to be dropping fat along with the convenience.
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
Isn't one of the guidelines of IF to get around .5 of your total daily protein in the fast breaking meal? I know when i consume 3 meals a day its a large fast break of about .5 daily kcal + .5 daily protein intake then a small afternoon and another large evening meal. Wouldn't that large bolus in the initial fast break help with the mps due to the large resulting amino pool?
How you meet your macros is personal preference, i spread my intake pretty even over all 3 meals.
you can adjust your larger meals or equal them in kcals, it will not matter in the end if you meet your caloric intake in the 24hour period or 7 day week towards your goal of a deficit or surplus.
 
bdcc

bdcc

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
If frequent feedings stoke the metabolic furnace why didn't pro bodybuilders go the extra mile and go on IV amino infusions?
 
jswain34

jswain34

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
How you meet your macros is personal preference, i spread my intake pretty even over all 3 meals. you can adjust your larger meals or equal them in kcals, it will not matter in the end if you meet your caloric intake in the 24hour period or 7 day week towards your goal of a deficit or surplus.
I understand that, i was just saying that if: 1) protein is spread out evenly as you do, or 2) a large proportion of daily protein is taken in in the first meal as i do then the study's finding that MPS is slowed as a result of saving the large portion of protein for the final meal would be weakened wouldnt it? Considering this isnt how most people set it up normally anyway?
 
The Solution

The Solution

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
I understand that, i was just saying that if: 1) protein is spread out evenly as you do, or 2) a large proportion of daily protein is taken in in the first meal as i do then the study's finding that MPS is slowed as a result of saving the large portion of protein for the final meal would be weakened wouldnt it? Considering this isnt how most people set it up normally anyway?
If you know that MPS is slowed why would you do that? MPS is slowed on a less frequent feeding as Layne's MPS Study shows a meal every 4-6 hours is optimal, so you could spread it out evently as i tried to tell you like noon, 4, 8 and even it out.

Now if you want to do like 100g of protein in meal 1
50g in meal 2
and 50g in meal 3

that is totally up to you and personal preference. i just prefer to spread mine out evenly.
 

PuZo

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Top