Nutrition and Health Roundtable

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at. I'm actually non-keto lower carb (~100g carbs per day) which suits me fine given that I tend to err towards meat products anyway.
    The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
    I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal I likes my oatmeal too
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at.
    The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
    EXACTLY. Protein and fat have to be met regardless of goal (Cutting or bulking) but again some people thrive off higher fat and some dont. Some get bogged down, some get less performance, some have less energy, and they feel crappy. Same with some on higher carbs. Again the body is not a textbook, everyone is different in their approach on what they find works best for them.

    The only thing we can do is take what we READ and what we see work with others, apply it, trial and error, and proceed forward on what is OPTIMAL for us.
    Nuts in general i feel are very overrated, especially dieting. The satisfaction of a few nuts is nothing. I would much rather have some PB or avacado, or something that has a bit more volume . especially because omega 3's are very hard to reach when in a deficit and omega 6's/9's are always over abused by most individuals in a bulking phase where as other micronutrients from fat sources are never really met. Some people dont get enough DPH/EPA in general (from their fish oil supp or under dose it)

    But again, everyone likes different sources and what suits them. There is no cookie cutter plan out there ever, its always changing/evoloving on what works for people and its always being tested with new things year in and year out on what it takes for that individual to look and perform their best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal I likes my oatmeal too
    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
    Well yeah its also based upon the individual. I was just making a statement about myself.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
    Potatoes all day!!!
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  7. Potatoes and jasmine rice for me!!
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Potatoes all day!!!
    lol to Jiigzz on if as he was on the great potato famine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Potatoes all day!!!
    Love em! Fill you up (Satiety) and full of potassium which many do not get enough of.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Love em! Fill you up (Satiety) and full of potassium which many do not get enough of.
    Yes! and high in Vit C
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    lol to Jiigzz on if as he was on the great potato famine
    LOL
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  13. Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

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  14. Carb cycling with a weekly Skipload FTW.

    More here;
    http://www.musclemag.com/nutrition-s.../#.UjL17-69LYU
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

    <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88 632"/>
    If I had a dime every time I heard a person say that... I'd have like 50 dimes.
    Fun fact: I have yet to see anyone say that and produce a 6 pack.


    I don't see any evidence to support paleo. I get its easy to monitor your diet when you cut out certain things, but I don't see why macros need to come from certain places. I think it's ease of adherence is an easy thing to follow that cuts out a lot of bad stuff, but I don't think it's optimal or better than simply tracking macros and making good decisions (ie 200g carbs from a sweet potato vs pancakes)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

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    http://www.nsca.com/uploadedFiles/NS...ook/Aragon.pdf

    ^^^
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Interesting read. According to my history professors, Paleolithic man initially lived on a diet predominately consisting if animals crap, roots, and bark. 100% truth.
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  18. If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.
    My current UNsponsored PES EP cutting log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/234161-adonisbelts-pes-erase.html

  19. Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.
    Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking in that case I train while eating a Big Mac
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking in that case I train while eating a Big Mac
    "Doesn't make a difference"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3639860/

    However this one is really interesting...

    "This study for the first time shows that fasted training is more potent than fed training to facilitate adaptations in muscle and to improve whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during hyper-caloric fat-rich diet."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...7/#!po=4.39189

    Is this a nail in the coffin for fed training advocacy during a cut?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029094
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910805
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3622486
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/fas...ing-video.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20044472
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679

    Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

    I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.
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    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

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  23. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

    My professors hate me
    Probably Dr. Volek
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Probably Dr. Volek
    Volek boom thanks my man
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029094
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910805
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3622486
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/fas...ing-video.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20044472
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679

    Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

    I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.
    Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

    Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

    "Summing Up the Research Findings

    • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
    • At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
    • Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
    • At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

    References available: http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

    My professors hate me
    Dr Jacob Wilson? The guy he does the Podcasts with? check out the Muscle College Radio Series.
    Regardless Layne is the last to advocate keto unless its necessary to get the last few pounds off. He is totally against it and always including carbs if possible and keeps them as high as possible year round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

    Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

    "Summing Up the Research Findings

    • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
    • At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
    • Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
    • At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

    References available: http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
    ^^^ Thats a cardio article bro. Not training.
    These are comign from Martin's Post's Regarding fasted training.

    Go to his website and go to the fasted cardio tab on the right hand side, he has 10 articles.
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  28. I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

    Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248495

    Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132439
    Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051570
    Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
    Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187284
    No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17374665

    Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
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  29. Yes, the references are for cardio training but they have pertinence because they compare fed vs fasted states which is what AdonisBelt's question was about.

    Referencing a study during Ramadan has less relevance if it isn't comparing it to a control group.

    Here is another study on Ramadan which although flawed, at least compared fed vs fasted groups. http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

    Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248495

    Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132439
    Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051570
    Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
    Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187284
    No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17374665

    Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
    This is why science is great and all, but how many studies will we truly find on average gym rats or individuals who train hard? As for most of the things we will debate in here that are hot topics not really any.. Nor will people really invest in it. So you can only take it with a grain of salt. Look at tons of the individuals on martin's site who do train fasted (and not endurnace athletes) their progress and success speaks for itself. Now granted they are following an IF diet and none of them will be loaded up on juice or performance enhancing supplements which may alter intake and how p-ratio results may vary, but again there is some backing to his methods and also fasted training via personal results (and some of his scientific links)

    Again You can only figure out through trial and error what works for you, ive found it very beneficial for me. I have better focus, energy and drive in a fasted state , and again i set up my nutrition to fuel morning workouts by eating a large carb meal prior to bed Via the biorythm diet.

    http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...Biorhythm-Diet

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

    -- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

    -- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

    Really we can debate science here and there, but this will be an individual topic IMO.
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