Nutrition and Health Roundtable

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029094
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910805
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3622486
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/fas...ing-video.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20044472
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679

    Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

    I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.
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    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

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    Probably Dr. Volek
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Probably Dr. Volek
    Volek boom thanks my man
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029094
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910805
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3622486
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/fas...ing-video.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20044472
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679

    Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

    I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.
    Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

    Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

    "Summing Up the Research Findings

    • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
    • At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
    • Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
    • At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

    References available: http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    @The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

    My professors hate me
    Dr Jacob Wilson? The guy he does the Podcasts with? check out the Muscle College Radio Series.
    Regardless Layne is the last to advocate keto unless its necessary to get the last few pounds off. He is totally against it and always including carbs if possible and keeps them as high as possible year round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

    Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

    "Summing Up the Research Findings

    • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
    • At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
    • Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
    • At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

    References available: http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
    ^^^ Thats a cardio article bro. Not training.
    These are comign from Martin's Post's Regarding fasted training.

    Go to his website and go to the fasted cardio tab on the right hand side, he has 10 articles.
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    I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

    Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248495

    Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132439
    Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051570
    Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
    Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187284
    No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17374665

    Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
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    Yes, the references are for cardio training but they have pertinence because they compare fed vs fasted states which is what AdonisBelt's question was about.

    Referencing a study during Ramadan has less relevance if it isn't comparing it to a control group.

    Here is another study on Ramadan which although flawed, at least compared fed vs fasted groups. http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

    Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248495

    Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132439
    Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051570
    Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
    Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187284
    No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17374665

    Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
    This is why science is great and all, but how many studies will we truly find on average gym rats or individuals who train hard? As for most of the things we will debate in here that are hot topics not really any.. Nor will people really invest in it. So you can only take it with a grain of salt. Look at tons of the individuals on martin's site who do train fasted (and not endurnace athletes) their progress and success speaks for itself. Now granted they are following an IF diet and none of them will be loaded up on juice or performance enhancing supplements which may alter intake and how p-ratio results may vary, but again there is some backing to his methods and also fasted training via personal results (and some of his scientific links)

    Again You can only figure out through trial and error what works for you, ive found it very beneficial for me. I have better focus, energy and drive in a fasted state , and again i set up my nutrition to fuel morning workouts by eating a large carb meal prior to bed Via the biorythm diet.

    http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...Biorhythm-Diet

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

    -- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

    -- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

    Really we can debate science here and there, but this will be an individual topic IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23723099

    Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22248495

    Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21132439
    Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21051570
    Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283
    Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187284
    No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17374665

    Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
    In resistance training it is worth factoring in the effect on actual work output.

    This is where resistance training vs a protocol like LISS would differ because performance would be a bigger factor.

    I tend to agree with the bolded sentence though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    In resistance training it is worth factoring in the effect on actual work output.

    This is where resistance training vs a protocol like LISS would differ because performance would be a bigger factor.

    I tend to agree with the bolded sentence though.
    Endurance athletes IMO Should be flooding their systems all day long given the amount of exert of calories and how much they will truly have to intake. At the minimum they should be using intra-workout carbs if they were to do something fasted with BCAA's.
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    So here is the question:

    given that there is data to support increased fat oxidization, insulin sensitivity, protein synthesis etc. (aka all the "stuff" we here into bodybuilding want) during a fasted state while resistance training, and almost opposite effects seen in endurance exercise, am I screwing myself by doing fasted cardio in the morning prior to working out?

    It would appear that this conversation is heading in this direction, suggesting i do cardio after training fasted and then eating; this is bizarre seeing as Lyle McDonald explicitly suggests fasted cardio for ridding fats once under ~10% bf; not to mention via high intensity intervals- which are obviously at high VO2 percentages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    So here is the question:

    given that there is data to support increased fat oxidization, insulin sensitivity, protein synthesis etc. (aka all the "stuff" we here into bodybuilding want) during a fasted state while resistance training, and almost opposite effects seen in endurance exercise, am I screwing myself by doing fasted cardio in the morning prior to working out?

    It would appear that this conversation is heading in this direction, suggesting i do cardio after training fasted and then eating; this is bizarre seeing as Lyle McDonald explicitly suggests fasted cardio for ridding fats once under ~10% bf; not to mention via high intensity intervals- which are obviously at high VO2 percentages.
    Then you get aragon's and Laynes stance on fasted cardio not being necessary at all

    http://www.biolayne.com/contest-prep...-bodybuilding/
    http://forum.simplyshredded.com/topi...fasted-cardio/
    http://alanaragon.com/bodybuilding-n...ne-norton.html
    http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...opinions/page2

    aragon:

    http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
    http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...ed-cardio.html
    http://alanaragon.com/myths-under-th...rthoughts.html
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    Person A. Makes claim and cites scientific research as evidence
    Person B. Criticizes the citations and offers counter research to refute original claim
    Person A. Science is no longer valid and decisions should be made off anecdotes. Makes nonsensical remarks like "the body is not a textbook" and generally dismisses the ability of science being used as evidence

    WTF.. how do you make a claim based on science and then dismiss science when faults in your claim are pointed out

    Im unsubbing from this before I explode
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Person A. Makes claim and cites scientific research as evidence
    Person B. Criticizes the citations and offers counter research to refute original claim
    Person A. Science is no longer valid and decisions should be made off anecdotes. Makes nonsensical remarks like "the body is not a textbook" and generally dismisses the ability of science being used as evidence

    WTF.. how do you make a claim based on science and then dismiss science when faults in your claim are pointed out

    Im unsubbing from this before I explode
    Good point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    This is why science is great and all, but how many studies will we truly find on average gym rats or individuals who train hard? As for most of the things we will debate in here that are hot topics not really any.. Nor will people really invest in it. So you can only take it with a grain of salt. Look at tons of the individuals on martin's site who do train fasted (and not endurnace athletes) their progress and success speaks for itself. Now granted they are following an IF diet and none of them will be loaded up on juice or performance enhancing supplements which may alter intake and how p-ratio results may vary, but again there is some backing to his methods and also fasted training via personal results (and some of his scientific links)
    Again You can only figure out through trial and error what works for you, ive found it very beneficial for me. I have better focus, energy and drive in a fasted state , and again i set up my nutrition to fuel morning workouts by eating a large carb meal prior to bed Via the biorythm diet.

    http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...Biorhythm-Diet

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

    -- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
    -- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

    -- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

    -- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

    Really we can debate science here and there, but this will be an individual topic IMO.
    One thing quick before I go on; that article is very long yet only has 6 references to back it up, most of which are obscure. In fact, many of his claims aren't even referenced at all. He even wrote this:
    In order to get to the point and already having spent a couple of hours trying to find the correct study references – I gave up and encourage interested readers to e-mail me for further study references
    So does this mean that he wrote the article BEFORE finding studies? So the article isn't based off findings but rather he wrote the article THEN tried looking for sources which backed his standpoint? I'd be very careful when people conduct research and article writing this way

    Secondly, Martins subjects are good at all, but I wasn't stating or making claims that 'gains' cannot be made when training in a fasted state, but rather if there is any difference whatsoever in protein synthesis or the anabolic response, for which I can find no evidence. So in saying that, i'm not overly sure where you were headed with the bolded part.

    Are you claiming that there anabolic response to fasted training is superior to someone who trains in the fed state?

    I should also go back and question the second source I posted; it stated that fasted training led to a decrease in bodyweight and body fat whereas fed training only resulted in a drop in bodyweight. Is it claiming that all the weight lost was lean tissue when performing aerobic training in the fed state? Doubtful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Are you claiming that there anabolic response to fasted training is superior to someone who trains in the fed state?

    I should also go back and question the second source I posted; it stated that fasted training led to a decrease in bodyweight and body fat whereas fed training only resulted in a drop in bodyweight. Is it claiming that all the weight lost was lean tissue when performing aerobic training in the fed state? Doubtful.
    I dont think the training is going to impact the bodyfat or weightloss. the overall caloric deficit would be the major factor regarding that. Depletion training (high rep/hypertrophy) training could aid in glyocgen depletion, but who is to say that is really the key factor to fatloss or fatloss for training. We have seen in real life that hypertrophy training while dieting can be a disaster and cause to a ton of muscle loss if one is not training heavy when they do diet. So it is doubtful as much science as we do read i doubt we have one specifically on bodybuilders or that does compare the fed to fasted state for our exact research we are trying to find since most reserach is done in either 1) Rats, 2) overweight subjects, or 3) People who have messed up caloric intakes to not really match their goal which skew the end result.

    Anabolic response:

    Insulin Response and Nutrient partitioning:
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/fas...nsitivity.html

    "GLUT4: Glucose transporter type 4 is a protein responsible for insulin-regulated glucose transport into the muscle cell. It increased by a whopping 28% in F but only 2-3% in C (not mentioned in the paper but this is my estimate based on the graphs). This partly explains why F saw superior results in regards to glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity.

    Since GLUT4 is triggered by AMPK, which is increased when glucose availability is low, i.e. during fasted training, one would assume the GLUT4 increase could then be explained by an increase in AMPK. This was found to be true: AMPK increased by 25% in F, which correlated closely with the increase in GLUT4 content."

    Metabolic enzymes: Very fittingly, the same group of enzymes that were investigated in the study I covered in "Fasted Training Boosts Endurance and Muscle Glycogen" were looked at here.

    Interestingly, changes in citrate synthase and HAD, two markers for fuel-utilization efficiency, were not different between F and C. However, two other important markers for glucose and fat metabolism, FAT/CD36 and CPT1, were increased by ~30% in F. C saw no increase at all.

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/fas...rance-and.html

    Body composition: Now this is very interesting. Despite overfeeding the subjects with 1000 calories or more, F only gained 0.7 kg. From a scientific standpoint, this is deemed insignificant. That is, the gain could likely be attributed to chance or, very likely, fluctuations in body weight due to increased muscle glycogen. This lack of weight gain in F could not be explained by the training regimen. They were still overfed by 15-20% when accounting for the extra activity. This left the subjects with a theoretical surplus of 650 calories per day, on average, which should have resulted in weight gain equivalent to ~3.5 kg after six weeks.

    What about C? They gained 1.4 kg, twice as much as F, despite doing the same amount of exercise and consuming the same amount of calories and macronutrients.

    http://www.leangains.com/search/labe...&by-date=false

    More from Martin:

    "The main findings of the present study were that: training in an overnight-fasted state enhances storage of muscle glycogen compared to training in the fed state; skeletal muscle of men and women respond differently in terms of oxidative activity to training in the fed and overnight-fasted state; and peak VO2 and peak power improved more when training in the fasted state compared to the fed state."

    Questioning the dramatic increase (+54.7%) in muscle glycogen in the fasted group, the researchers were not able to find an answer based on unexpected confounders or behaviors between groups. Muscle biopsies were taken at the same time and there were no difference in diet in between groups.

    "...it is highly likely that the differences in glycogen stores between groups reflect the training intervention and not exercise timing or pre-biopsy diet."

    Moreover, these results are in line with a prior study that found similar results for fasted training.

    "Importantly, our findings correspond to that of De Bock et al. confirming that training whilst circulating CHO levels are low increases the capacity to accrue glycogen in the trained muscles."

    What might be the reason for the different effects between genders on oxidative enzymes? As mentioned previously, differences in fuel utilization. Males rely less on intramuscular triglycerides and fatty acids and more on glucose, while females burn a higher percentage of fat at any given exercise intensity. But why fed state training would then be more beneficial for females when it comes to "oxidative adaptation" requires further investigation.


    More on fasted training and protein synthesis:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8712615714k8150/

    In this study, subjects were split into two groups that were trained on two occasions separated by three weeks. The three-week rest period between sessions served as a "washout" period, in order to make sure that the prior session didn't interfere with the results obtained during the second test.

    The workouts were fairly basic whole-body sessions: 3 x 8 in seven movements such as bench press, overhead press, curls and leg press.

    One of the sessions (F) were performed on an empty stomach after an overnight fast.

    The other session (B) was performed in the fed state. Subjects were given a breakfast of 722 kcal composed of 85% carbs, 11% protein and 4% fat, and training was initiated 90 minutes after the meal.

    After the weight training session, both groups rested for 4 hours. At the one- and four-hour marks, muscle biopsies and blood tests were obtained . Participants were also also given a recovery drink to sip each hour during the rest period.

    Results revealed that the F session had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to the B when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.

    Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion. The effects seen on the other myogenic signaling mechanisms could also affect muscle growth through other pathways.
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    Great Video

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    This has turned into a "ill just throw a link down and agree with it " thread with hardly any personal experience discussion brought to the table so I'll be unsubbing now.

    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    This has turned into a "ill just throw a link down and agree with it " thread with hardly any personal experience discussion brought to the table so I'll be unsubbing now.
    Ok, here is my anecdote;

    I spent a week training fasted when on holiday. I trained first thing in the morning.

    I was significantly weaker and felt nauseous every session. My workouts were significantly easier yet I found them harder than the much more rigorous workouts that I would usually put myself through.

    In theory if I did them for long enough I should notice some form of adaptation to them. If I was forced to train first thing in the morning due to my work schedule then I would do it but I don't believe fasted training offers any advantage in terms of performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Ok, here is my anecdote;

    I spent a week training fasted when on holiday. I trained first thing in the morning.

    I was significantly weaker and felt nauseous every session. My workouts were significantly easier yet I found them harder than the much more rigorous workouts that I would usually put myself through.

    In theory if I did them for long enough I should notice some form of adaptation to them. If I was forced to train first thing in the morning due to my work schedule then I would do it but I don't believe fasted training offers any advantage in terms of performance.
    Interesting. I used to train fasted a while ago but have since changed my tact (as I always do) and now train after a large feed. Seems to sit better with me this way.

    Although if I do HIIT, then eating beforehand makes me wanna puke so its hard to find a good balance lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    I dont think the training is going to impact the bodyfat or weightloss. the overall caloric deficit would be the major factor regarding that. Depletion training (high rep/hypertrophy) training could aid in glyocgen depletion, but who is to say that is really the key factor to fatloss or fatloss for training. We have seen in real life that hypertrophy training while dieting can be a disaster and cause to a ton of muscle loss if one is not training heavy when they do diet. So it is doubtful as much science as we do read i doubt we have one specifically on bodybuilders or that does compare the fed to fasted state for our exact research we are trying to find since most reserach is done in either 1) Rats, 2) overweight subjects, or 3) People who have messed up caloric intakes to not really match their goal which skew the end result.

    Anabolic response:

    Insulin Response and Nutrient partitioning:
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/fas...nsitivity.html

    "GLUT4: Glucose transporter type 4 is a protein responsible for insulin-regulated glucose transport into the muscle cell. It increased by a whopping 28% in F but only 2-3% in C (not mentioned in the paper but this is my estimate based on the graphs). This partly explains why F saw superior results in regards to glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity.

    Since GLUT4 is triggered by AMPK, which is increased when glucose availability is low, i.e. during fasted training, one would assume the GLUT4 increase could then be explained by an increase in AMPK. This was found to be true: AMPK increased by 25% in F, which correlated closely with the increase in GLUT4 content."

    Metabolic enzymes: Very fittingly, the same group of enzymes that were investigated in the study I covered in "Fasted Training Boosts Endurance and Muscle Glycogen" were looked at here.

    Interestingly, changes in citrate synthase and HAD, two markers for fuel-utilization efficiency, were not different between F and C. However, two other important markers for glucose and fat metabolism, FAT/CD36 and CPT1, were increased by ~30% in F. C saw no increase at all.

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/fas...rance-and.html

    Body composition: Now this is very interesting. Despite overfeeding the subjects with 1000 calories or more, F only gained 0.7 kg. From a scientific standpoint, this is deemed insignificant. That is, the gain could likely be attributed to chance or, very likely, fluctuations in body weight due to increased muscle glycogen. This lack of weight gain in F could not be explained by the training regimen. They were still overfed by 15-20% when accounting for the extra activity. This left the subjects with a theoretical surplus of 650 calories per day, on average, which should have resulted in weight gain equivalent to ~3.5 kg after six weeks.

    What about C? They gained 1.4 kg, twice as much as F, despite doing the same amount of exercise and consuming the same amount of calories and macronutrients.

    http://www.leangains.com/search/labe...&by-date=false

    More from Martin:

    "The main findings of the present study were that: training in an overnight-fasted state enhances storage of muscle glycogen compared to training in the fed state; skeletal muscle of men and women respond differently in terms of oxidative activity to training in the fed and overnight-fasted state; and peak VO2 and peak power improved more when training in the fasted state compared to the fed state."

    Questioning the dramatic increase (+54.7%) in muscle glycogen in the fasted group, the researchers were not able to find an answer based on unexpected confounders or behaviors between groups. Muscle biopsies were taken at the same time and there were no difference in diet in between groups.

    "...it is highly likely that the differences in glycogen stores between groups reflect the training intervention and not exercise timing or pre-biopsy diet."

    Moreover, these results are in line with a prior study that found similar results for fasted training.

    "Importantly, our findings correspond to that of De Bock et al. confirming that training whilst circulating CHO levels are low increases the capacity to accrue glycogen in the trained muscles."

    What might be the reason for the different effects between genders on oxidative enzymes? As mentioned previously, differences in fuel utilization. Males rely less on intramuscular triglycerides and fatty acids and more on glucose, while females burn a higher percentage of fat at any given exercise intensity. But why fed state training would then be more beneficial for females when it comes to "oxidative adaptation" requires further investigation.


    More on fasted training and protein synthesis:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8712615714k8150/

    In this study, subjects were split into two groups that were trained on two occasions separated by three weeks. The three-week rest period between sessions served as a "washout" period, in order to make sure that the prior session didn't interfere with the results obtained during the second test.

    The workouts were fairly basic whole-body sessions: 3 x 8 in seven movements such as bench press, overhead press, curls and leg press.

    One of the sessions (F) were performed on an empty stomach after an overnight fast.

    The other session (B) was performed in the fed state. Subjects were given a breakfast of 722 kcal composed of 85% carbs, 11% protein and 4% fat, and training was initiated 90 minutes after the meal.

    After the weight training session, both groups rested for 4 hours. At the one- and four-hour marks, muscle biopsies and blood tests were obtained . Participants were also also given a recovery drink to sip each hour during the rest period.

    Results revealed that the F session had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to the B when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.

    Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion. The effects seen on the other myogenic signaling mechanisms could also affect muscle growth through other pathways.
    Good studies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Interesting. I used to train fasted a while ago but have since changed my tact (as I always do) and now train after a large feed. Seems to sit better with me this way.

    Although if I do HIIT, then eating beforehand makes me wanna puke so its hard to find a good balance lol
    That balance is key for me also.

    When i trained weights fasted I would get light headed ( i always try to train max effort and intensity. As heavy as possible and as many reps as possible). Even with a shake before hand I would get blackouts especially squats.

    When I do Cardio on the other hand I enjoy it much more fasted but will always have bcaa intra or before.

    I guess my point is when I weight trained fasted my workouts suffered. I'd rather have a killer session with some food in me and do my cardio after lifting then, weight train at a less capacity.

    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    That balance is key for me also.

    When i trained weights fasted I would get light headed ( i always try to train max effort and intensity. As heavy as possible and as many reps as possible). Even with a shake before hand I would get blackouts especially squats.

    When I do Cardio on the other hand I enjoy it much more fasted but will always have bcaa intra or before.

    I guess my point is when I weight trained fasted my workouts suffered. I'd rather have a killer session with some food in me and do my cardio after lifting then, weight train at a less capacity.
    totally agreed. I've never tried lifting max without having a big feed, only ever when doing light work. I think it would kill me lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    This has turned into a "ill just throw a link down and agree with it " thread with hardly any personal experience discussion brought to the table so I'll be unsubbing now.
    Most roundtables include experience but is mostly based off the research they study. Even if someone throws out their experience some people will still rebuttal with "oh you should do this or you should do that" when it suits that individual and their success because it suits them and its optimal for their schedule. Both are vital IMO, sometimes the things that dont seem like they would work on paper or in a lab show the best results for that individual hence why i believe there is no true "best way" to do things because everyone responds so differently. Some prefer the fasted training and some do not. Some experience greater focus/energy in a fasted state, and some are just horrible, groggy and tired. The only true way is to give it a good 4-8 weeks minimum of trying something new, try to adjust, and take notes on what works for your mood, energy, strength, and performance and then adjust. Same could be said with intra-workout carbs, meal timing, meal frequency etc. There will never be a one size fits all for every individual that walks, but i am always eager to see how other people do things and see what works for them because each piece of advice could be utilized to help give you an edge for something in the future or your current program/diet/training.

    For me i can do both in a fasted/non fasted state

    Fasted:
    - Greater Energy (Pre-workouts do hit harder in a true fasted state)
    - Have hit PR's in a fasted state and notice increased energy compared to a fed state, longer focus, and greater mental clarity
    - Overall strength may not be up to par compared to training later or with food in me, but i still put in very good sessions
    - Focus/Intensity remains high
    - Less Vascularity/Pump

    Fed:
    - May feel a bit bloated depending on how close or what i eat pre-workout (usually a very light meal to fuel training and eat more post/pre bed)
    - Strength may be greater (have hit more PR's in a fed state)
    - Energy/Focus may be a bit less if using a pre-workout due to food in the system and effects not as great
    - performance on par if not a bit better with food in me (tough to tell since i train fasted more often due to schedule/job)
    - Vascularity/Pump greater with food/pre-workout meal in me compared to fasted

    my expereinces

    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    That balance is key for me also.

    When i trained weights fasted I would get light headed ( i always try to train max effort and intensity. As heavy as possible and as many reps as possible). Even with a shake before hand I would get blackouts especially squats.

    When I do Cardio on the other hand I enjoy it much more fasted but will always have bcaa intra or before.

    I guess my point is when I weight trained fasted my workouts suffered. I'd rather have a killer session with some food in me and do my cardio after lifting then, weight train at a less capacity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Most roundtables include experience but is mostly based off the research they study. Even if someone throws out their experience some people will still rebuttal with "oh you should do this or you should do that" when it suits that individual and their success because it suits them and its optimal for their schedule. Both are vital IMO, sometimes the things that dont seem like they would work on paper or in a lab show the best results for that individual hence why i believe there is no true "best way" to do things because everyone responds so differently. Some prefer the fasted training and some do not. Some experience greater focus/energy in a fasted state, and some are just horrible, groggy and tired. The only true way is to give it a good 4-8 weeks minimum of trying something new, try to adjust, and take notes on what works for your mood, energy, strength, and performance and then adjust. Same could be said with intra-workout carbs, meal timing, meal frequency etc. There will never be a one size fits all for every individual that walks, but i am always eager to see how other people do things and see what works for them because each piece of advice could be utilized to help give you an edge for something in the future or your current program/diet/training.

    For me i can do both in a fasted/non fasted state

    Fasted:
    - Greater Energy (Pre-workouts do hit harder in a true fasted state)
    - Have hit PR's in a fasted state and notice increased energy compared to a fed state, longer focus, and greater mental clarity
    - Overall strength may not be up to par compared to training later or with food in me, but i still put in very good sessions
    - Focus/Intensity remains high
    - Less Vascularity/Pump

    Fed:
    - May feel a bit bloated depending on how close or what i eat pre-workout (usually a very light meal to fuel training and eat more post/pre bed)
    - Strength may be greater (have hit more PR's in a fed state)
    - Energy/Focus may be a bit less if using a pre-workout due to food in the system and effects not as great
    - performance on par if not a bit better with food in me (tough to tell since i train fasted more often due to schedule/job)
    - Vascularity/Pump greater with food/pre-workout meal in me compared to fasted

    my expereinces
    Now this was a helpful post.

    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Ok, here is my anecdote;

    I spent a week training fasted when on holiday. I trained first thing in the morning.

    I was significantly weaker and felt nauseous every session. My workouts were significantly easier yet I found them harder than the much more rigorous workouts that I would usually put myself through.

    In theory if I did them for long enough I should notice some form of adaptation to them. If I was forced to train first thing in the morning due to my work schedule then I would do it but I don't believe fasted training offers any advantage in terms of performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Interesting. I used to train fasted a while ago but have since changed my tact (as I always do) and now train after a large feed. Seems to sit better with me this way.

    Although if I do HIIT, then eating beforehand makes me wanna puke so its hard to find a good balance lol
    Agree with both of you. I can't train to my fullest potential fasted. My best workouts are always post a hefty carb weighted meal.

    Training fasted seems to (IMO) go along with Martin and his Lean Gains health lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    This has turned into a "ill just throw a link down and agree with it " thread with hardly any personal experience discussion brought to the table so I'll be unsubbing now.
    Don't be such a lay down Larry

    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    That balance is key for me also.

    When i trained weights fasted I would get light headed ( i always try to train max effort and intensity. As heavy as possible and as many reps as possible). Even with a shake before hand I would get blackouts especially squats.

    When I do Cardio on the other hand I enjoy it much more fasted but will always have bcaa intra or before.

    I guess my point is when I weight trained fasted my workouts suffered. I'd rather have a killer session with some food in me and do my cardio after lifting then, weight train at a less capacity.
    Irrelevant you unsubbed you're not supposed to be in here

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Most roundtables include experience but is mostly based off the research they study. Even if someone throws out their experience some people will still rebuttal with "oh you should do this or you should do that" when it suits that individual and their success because it suits them and its optimal for their schedule. Both are vital IMO, sometimes the things that dont seem like they would work on paper or in a lab show the best results for that individual hence why i believe there is no true "best way" to do things because everyone responds so differently. Some prefer the fasted training and some do not. Some experience greater focus/energy in a fasted state, and some are just horrible, groggy and tired. The only true way is to give it a good 4-8 weeks minimum of trying something new, try to adjust, and take notes on what works for your mood, energy, strength, and performance and then adjust. Same could be said with intra-workout carbs, meal timing, meal frequency etc. There will never be a one size fits all for every individual that walks, but i am always eager to see how other people do things and see what works for them because each piece of advice could be utilized to help give you an edge for something in the future or your current program/diet/training.

    For me i can do both in a fasted/non fasted state

    Fasted:
    - Greater Energy (Pre-workouts do hit harder in a true fasted state)
    - Have hit PR's in a fasted state and notice increased energy compared to a fed state, longer focus, and greater mental clarity
    - Overall strength may not be up to par compared to training later or with food in me, but i still put in very good sessions
    - Focus/Intensity remains high
    - Less Vascularity/Pump

    Fed:
    - May feel a bit bloated depending on how close or what i eat pre-workout (usually a very light meal to fuel training and eat more post/pre bed)
    - Strength may be greater (have hit more PR's in a fed state)
    - Energy/Focus may be a bit less if using a pre-workout due to food in the system and effects not as great
    - performance on par if not a bit better with food in me (tough to tell since i train fasted more often due to schedule/job)
    - Vascularity/Pump greater with food/pre-workout meal in me compared to fasted

    my expereinces
    "Most roundtables include experience but is mostly based off the research they study."

    These Roundtables specifically aren't all about the studies but rather the total picture. If anyone wants to get worked up over a few scientific studies that's what the advanced section is for.

    There is an inherent difference between a scientist and someone who puts what they read to practice and gets results.

    Not talking about anyone in particular including you solution as you look like you're getting the results that you want. Just a generality, not aimed at any particular person in any way lol.

    Being one sided in either direction (science/practice) is a narrow minded approach that slows progress all around

    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Now this was a helpful post.
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    Subbed

    Good stuff so far
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    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
    I still consume liquid nutrition post workout.

    I don't think it is necessary per se but I find it difficult to eat immediately and I find my mental acuity diminishes if I consume nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
    I can definitely say I feel better after eating after I lift. I get all shakey and dizzy almost hypoglycemic like if I dont eat a meal post workout. Rather or not that meal adds to "dem gainz" I havent really noticed a difference.
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    I love food, I love working out, I love GOOD supplements, and I am sure that I will love gear and PH's.

    None of my gains or progress would have been possible without proper nutrition (most days of the week). And I have screwed myself out of more gains and a visible 6 pack because of my lack of discipline with my nutritional choices. But like I said, I love food and I am not a Competitor of any kind, so I am going to eat my cheeseburgers.

    This belongs here right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
    In regards to gains, I don't really notice a difference with protein consumed immediately post workout. I am usually not hungry afterwards. The idea of a shower and nap is more appealing, but I will say once I finish my post workout meal I turn into a ravenous eating machine...impatiently awaiting the next meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    I can definitely say I feel better after eating after I lift. I get all shakey and dizzy almost hypoglycemic like if I dont eat a meal post workout. Rather or not that meal adds to "dem gainz" I havent really noticed a difference.
    This is how I feel also. I have read that it doesn't matter when you eat but how much
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    I'm usually eating a meal WITH a shake post workout. Normally about thirty minutes after leaving the gym.

    I don't eat immediately after but never more then an hour. This also hads to do with meal timing and frequency largely.

    Since I added whole foods in my post workout meal instead of just a shake and carb powder, I notice I'm not nearly as lethargic the rest of the day as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
    My stance:

    Meeting total calories in the 24 hour period is most important, but this will breakdown to many scenarios:

    Factors:
    - Amount eaten prior to workout (Food overlap into the post-workout period
    - Size of that meal eaten prior (Amount of protein)
    - Fasted or non fasted workout? The need for immediate or non-immediate food post-workout
    - Inclusion of Intra-workout BCAA (which will carry into the post-workout period of amions present in the bloodstream)
    - Type of training? (Endurnace or typical gym goer 60-90 minutes)
    - Amount of cardio individual is doing and amount of food required to replenish what the individual lost (for some normal guy guy, not too much, someone doing higher volume or higher intensity forms of cardio it may differ)

    what i would suggest:

    1) Fasted Trainee:
    - Take Intra-workout BCAA (to stop catabolic response from overnight fast)
    - Meal 1 follows training

    2) Fed Trainee
    Pre-workout meal (400-500 kcals)
    Post-workout meal (food will be overlapping from pre-workout meal so the need for something right away is not really 100% necessary) how long well that depends on how big the pre-workout meal was, how much protein and how long it will sit in the system. for someone who eats a 200 calorie meal it will be different than someone who eats a 600-1000 kcal meal which will allow for a longer digestion process of protein synthesis as well


    Also the need for timing right after (IE a shake) may not be necessary due to the amount of aminos (intra-workout BCAA) or food overlap from your pre-workout meal which is still digesting.

    This comes right from Alan's Protein per meal article here: Regarding synthsis and how much we would need depending on the size of the meal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

    "Short-term research supporting the magic limit

    I’ve heard many folks parrot that the maximal anabolic effect of a single protein dose is limited to 20 grams, citing recent work by Moore and colleagues [7]. In this study’s 4-hour post-exercise test period, 40 g protein did not elicit a greater anabolic response than 20 g. I’d interpret these outcomes with caution. Fundamentally speaking, protein utilization can differ according to muscle mass. The requirements of a 140-lb person will differ markedly from someone who’s a lean 200. Additionally, a relatively low amount of total volume was used (12 sets total). Typical training bouts usually involve more than one muscle group and are commonly at least double that volume, which can potentially increase the demand for nutrient uptake. Finally, the conclusion of the authors is questionable. They state explicitly,

    “…we speculate that no more than 5-6 times daily could one ingest this amount (~20 g) of protein and expect muscle protein synthesis to be maximally stimulated.”

    So, they’re implying that 100-120 grams of protein per day is maximal for promoting muscle growth. Wait a minute, what? Based on both the bulk of the research evidence and numerous field observations, this is simply false [8,9].

    In another recent study, Symons and colleagues compared the 5-hour response of a moderate serving of lean beef containing 30 g protein with a large serving containing 90 g protein [10]. The smaller serving increased protein synthesis by approximately 50%, and the larger serving caused no further increase in protein synthesis, despite being triple the dose. The researchers concluded that the ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance muscle protein synthesis. While their conclusion indeed supports the outcomes of their short-term study, it’s pretty easy to predict the outcomes in muscle size and strength if we compared a total daily protein dose of 90 g with 30 g over a longer trial period, let alone one involving a structured exercise protocol. This brings me to the crucial point that acute outcomes merely provide grounds for hypothesis. It’s not completely meaningless, but it’s far from conclusive without examining the long-term effects."

    My thoughts again:

    Showing that a smaller meal may not hold a longer response and the need for another meal quicker than someone who eats a larger meal (who can wait longer to eat) how long? That is really personal dependent, but i would just say no longer than 60-90 minutes post-workout, but i feel there is no need for a shake right away and a meal 30-60 minutes shortly after because that defeats the purpose of Muscle Protein Synthesis and allowing protein levels to reach their fractory stages before being spiked again which we have seen and heard in the following articles by Layne Norton:

    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf

    and his podcast here: with Dr Jake Wilson

    http://www.biolayne.com/news/episode...ein-synthesis/

    The thing that is MOST necessary in any situation is Pre-workout nutrition, how much, or how little. which will show you how long protein may take to be digested or how much longer it would take for protein levels to reach refractory stages

    Are you training fasted and taking an intra-workout BCAA where amions will be present in the post-workout period sseeing protein synthesis is boosted 24 hours post-exercise? What is your goal? Endurance Athlete or an average gym goer which will be a total 180.

    Again this is alan's MOST recent study on Post-Workout Nutriton:

    http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

    The Takeaway points below:

    Due to the transient anabolic impact of a protein-rich meal and its potential synergy with the trained state, pre- and post-exercise meals should not be separated by more than approximately 3–4 hours, given a typical resistance training bout lasting 45–90 minutes. If protein is delivered within particularly large mixed-meals (which are inherently more anticatabolic), a case can be made for lengthening the interval to 5–6 hours. This strategy covers the hypothetical timing benefits while allowing significant flexibility in the length of the feeding windows before and after training. Specific timing within this general framework would vary depending on individual preference and tolerance, as well as exercise duration. One of many possible examples involving a 60-minute resistance training bout could have up to 90-minute feeding windows on both sides of the bout, given central placement between the meals. In contrast, bouts exceeding typical duration would default to shorter feeding windows if the 3–4 hour pre- to post-exercise meal interval is maintained. Shifting the training session closer to the pre- or post-exercise meal should be dictated by personal preference, tolerance, and lifestyle/scheduling constraints.

    Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations. It is tempting to recommend pre- and post-exercise carbohydrate doses that at least match or exceed the amounts of protein consumed in these meals. However, carbohydrate availability during and after exercise is of greater concern for endurance as opposed to strength or hypertrophy goals. Furthermore, the importance of co-ingesting post-exercise protein and carbohydrate has recently been challenged by studies examining the early recovery period, particularly when sufficient protein is provided. Koopman et al [52] found that after full-body resistance training, adding carbohydrate (0.15, or 0.6 g/kg/hr) to amply dosed casein hydrolysate (0.3 g/kg/hr) did not increase whole body protein balance during a 6-hour post-exercise recovery period compared to the protein-only treatment. Subsequently, Staples et al [53] reported that after lower-body resistance exercise (leg extensions), the increase in post-exercise muscle protein balance from ingesting 25 g whey isolate was not improved by an additional 50 g maltodextrin during a 3-hour recovery period. For the goal of maximizing rates of muscle gain, these findings support the broader objective of meeting total daily carbohydrate need instead of specifically timing its constituent doses. Collectively, these data indicate an increased potential for dietary flexibility while maintaining the pursuit of optimal timing
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I still consume liquid nutrition post workout.

    I don't think it is necessary per se but I find it difficult to eat immediately and I find my mental acuity diminishes if I consume nothing.
    This is what I do too. I slam back a homemade shake almost straight after; whether or not it makes a difference to my results is irrelevant. I just like to reward myself with something nice lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    I can definitely say I feel better after eating after I lift. I get all shakey and dizzy almost hypoglycemic like if I dont eat a meal post workout. Rather or not that meal adds to "dem gainz" I havent really noticed a difference.
    I applaud you for being able to eat afterwards

    I really wish I could eat something afterwards but I literally cannot stomach it. I don't often work out to the point of nausea but for some reason, I just get repelled by the smell of food until at least an hour afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsicle3210 View Post
    I love food, I love working out, I love GOOD supplements, and I am sure that I will love gear and PH's.

    None of my gains or progress would have been possible without proper nutrition (most days of the week). And I have screwed myself out of more gains and a visible 6 pack because of my lack of discipline with my nutritional choices. But like I said, I love food and I am not a Competitor of any kind, so I am going to eat my cheeseburgers.

    This belongs here right?
    I don't even remember the last time I ate a cheeseburger...

    a big mac on the otherhand, well I had one of those last week.



    Quote Originally Posted by gokix811 View Post
    In regards to gains, I don't really notice a difference with protein consumed immediately post workout. I am usually not hungry afterwards. The idea of a shower and nap is more appealing, but I will say once I finish my post workout meal I turn into a ravenous eating machine...impatiently awaiting the next meal.
    A nap does sound appealing although I work straight afterward so a shower, some clean clothes and a hearty, liquid meal suits me just fine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What about the post workout 'window'? Does anyone notice any difference between getting in some protein within 30 minutes or not? I know n=1 and it is uncontrolled, but I just want your personal opinions on what you feel works best
    I actually feel a lot better waiting between 45 minutes to an hour after.
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