Nutrition and Health Roundtable

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    Let's kick this mother****er up a notch...

    Ketogenic diets - Go

    Don't get too in depth. However, if you do, explain; break it down in layman's terms.
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    "It’s one of many options that work, depending on the individual’s circumstances. People have different goals & preferences. Nonlinear carb intake becomes necessary in some cases where the lower limits of leanness are attempted to be reached. But, this is mainly a default result of having such a minimal caloric intake rather than any sort of special effect of nonlinear carb intake. Whether or not linear or nonlinear carb reduction is done should be dictated mainly by personal preference.
    "

    "Another recent trial compared two 1500 calorie diets, a non-ketogenic diet and a ketogenic one [4]. Insulin sensitivity was equally improved between the groups. No inhibition of fat loss was seen in the non-ketogenic diet despite the fact that it was moderate in both fat (30%) and carbs (40%). In fact, the non-keto group lost more bodyweight and bodyfat than the keto group, although neither of these effects was statistically significant. It appears that any threat of fat/carb combining slowing fat loss is imagination-based."


    "I went on to examine the common methodological limitation of low-carb versus low-fat comparisons failing to match protein intake. As such, the advantage of greater thermic effect, satiety, and lean mass retention will strongly favor the groups whose protein is optimized, or at least adequate. Low-fat/high-carb treatments often fall short of adequate protein intake, and the disadvantages are inherent. A memorable example showing significantly greater effects on mood and a lack of significant difference in body composition improvement from a non-ketogenic diet compared to a ketogenic diet was by Johnston et al [4]. This study showed a trend toward more favorable effects in the non-ketogenic diet group, and the important detail is that protein intake was similar between groups, and significantly above the paltry RDA level.

    It was serendipitous that Jeff brought up Phinney et al’s 1983 study on highly trained cyclists [1], because I was well-prepared to expose its details. This study involved 5 subjects who, after 1 week on a conventional diet, were put on a ketogenic diet for 4 weeks. Both phases were eucaloric (weight-maintaining). By the end of the 4 weeks, the subjects’ steady-state respiratory quotient (RQ) dropped from 0.83 to 0.72, indicating that they indeed were fat-adapted. Exclusive carbohydrate utililzation is indicated by an RQ of 1.0 while the exclusive utilization of fat is indicated by an RQ of 0.7, so with an RQ just a hair above that, these subjects were thoroughly primed for the proposed benefits of keto-adaptation.

    Stick with me now… Pre and post-keto-adaptation endurance capacity (measured by time to exhaustion or TTE) was not significantly different. This lead the authors to conclude that aerobic endurance at 62-64% of VO2max was not compromised by the 4-week ketogenic diet phase. Mean TTE in the non-keto and keto conditions were 147 and 151 minutes, respectively. However, the authors’ conclusion is misleading since 2 of the 5 subjects experienced substantial drops in endurance capacity (48 & 51-minute declines in TTE, to be exact). One of the subjects had a freakishly high 84-minute increase in TTE, while the other increases were 3 & 30 minutes. The outlying high value was instrumental in skewing the results away from any significant decline in the keto condition’s mean TTE.

    I proceeded to discuss how 21 years after the aforementioned study [1], Phinney wrote a review in which he reflects upon the ergolytic (performance-compromising) effect of the ketogenic diet phase, stating the following (my bolding for emphasis) [5]:

    “The bicyclist subjects of this study noted a modest decline in their energy level while on training rides during the first week of the Inuit diet, after which subjective performance was reasonably restored except for their sprint capability, which remained constrained during the period of carbohydrate restriction.“

    For the record, I have Anthony Colpo to thank for catching the above tidbit. The point is, any decrease in sprinting capability can be considered a crucial liability, especially since most endurance races involve sprinting at various points. Almost invariably, sprinting to some degree occurs toward the final stretch to the finish line.

    The final segment of my presentation was a discussion of observational research including the carb-dominant dietary habits of the Blue Zone populations, who are among the longest-living and most disease-resistant in the world. I also discussed the carb-heavy diets of East African distance runners, who hold over 90% of the all-time world records and also the current top-10 positions in world ranking [6,7]. I concluded my lecture by relaying client case studies of high-level competitive & professional athletes, whose daily carbohydrate gram intakes ranged the high double-digits to the high triple-digits. My point was to illustrate the sprawlingly wide range of carbohydrate requirements across individuals, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all ideology of low-carb absolutists. Here’s the slide that put faces to the case studies of my athlete clientele over the years:

    clients
    The Repeat Round

    As I mentioned, every presentation at the conference was delivered twice, and my debate with Jeff was no exception. This made for a very odd second round, since we both knew each other’s material. The moderation was tighter on this round, and the 15-minute Powerpoint presentation limits were strictly imposed to ensure some discussion time. Jeff appeared to portray more flexibility in his position. He opted to go first again after I asked him what he preferred. He was thus able to pre-empt my mentioning of inter-individual differences in the Phinney study, and pad it with the idea that the authors expected a much worse outcome after the keto phase, but were surprised that it didn’t completely obliterate performance.

    In the discussion following our presentations, Jeff once again brought up a resistance training study [2] showing the benefits of low-carb versus low-fat. Unfortunately, this study is not readily accessible, nor is it peer-reviewed. In any case, I asked Jeff if protein intake was matched between groups, and he conceded that it was not. This opens up the possibility that a significantly higher protein intake in the low-carb group could have induced greater satiety and less overall caloric intake, resulting in greater fat loss. Again, a failure to match protein (let alone match optimized intakes, which under dieting conditions would be at least double the RDA) is a frustratingly common confounder in these types of studies.

    When I asked Jeff how we can reconcile the high-carb diets of the vast majority of world-class endurance champions, he proposed that these populations simply have not given low-carbing a fair enough shot. To me, this is quite a stretch since the best in the world would be foolish to jeopardize what has been working so stunningly well since the beginning of organized endurance competition. When Jeff was challenged on the concept of chronically depleted or low glycogen levels compromising the capacity for muscle growth, Jeff deflected to his current concentration on the clinical applications of carbohydrate restriction rather than hypertrophic applications per se.

    Did I feel that Jeff did an excellent job presenting his side and delivering useful information? Yes, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for him and his body of work. However, judging from my own observations – as well as the feedback from others – he simply did not bring a comparatively compelling case for a low-carb/ketogenic diet’s application to competitive athletes. In contrast, I was able to present multiple lines of evidence showing the benefit of both ends of the carbohydrate intake spectrum, and many points in between."
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    Alan: It depends on the overall goal that we’re talking about. This will determine whether or not a focus on carbs at the expense of fat (or vice versa) would be beneficial. I would say this as a blanket statement though: individual preference & tolerance varies. For most recreational fitness goals (as opposed to competitive athletic goals), simply nailing your macronutrient targets by the end of the day is what’s important.

    5) Keto, most efficient way of cutting – this is rather an extension of the first question, but deserving of its own response due to the ongoing debates over the superiority (or inferiority) of Keto for cutting. Is it any more effective at burning fat than other diets? Or does eating under maintenance prevail as the winner regardless of the methods used? We know carbohydrates retain water, and proteins are diuretics. Can the initial effects of Keto be understood through the non-existent intake of the former and higher intake of the latter? (appearance of being leaner, with long-term Keto effects stabilizing on par with other diets) Or is Keto really the most optimal?

    Alan: There’s nothing inherently special about keto in terms of fat-loss benefits. This has been shown repeatedly in long-term research that’s reasonably controlled (as opposed to the ad-libitum or free-living research) . It’s important to realize that the current research is not sufficient grounds to be dogmatic about low-carbing in the first place. Studies often do not match protein intakes between diets. Adequate protein intakes have multiple advantages (ie, LBM support, satiety, thermic effect), and they simply end up being compared to inadequate protein intakes. Thus, it’s not lower carb intake per se that imparts any advantage, it’s the higher protein intake.

    Once you match protein intake between diets, the one with more carbs is actually the one with the potential for a slight metabolic advantage. In any case, there’s a large middle ground here that tends to get ignored by folks who believe in a ‘metabolic advantage’ of keto/low-carb. It’s always either-or for them, when in fact, individual carbohydrate demands vary widely depending upon personal tolerance & preference, not to mention individual goals. For some folks, low-carb is warranted. For others, it isn’t. It always amazes me how hard that concept is to grasp for keto absolutists.
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    Going back to my run with the warrior diet I have a question about my 4hr overfeeding period in the evening. 3 days a week my overfeeding will be high carb and 4 days a week it will be low carb.

    I currently have ALA, Recompadrol, and Slin-Sane v2 at my disposal. My main carb intakes are right after I work out which is not the ideal time to use GDA's since my body is in a very high state for utilizing nutrients already. I don't think the small 300cal or less snacks throughout the day really warrant a GDA from what I can tell. Would you guys even use a GDA at all and if so where would you utilize it? I may even sell it to fund something else that would better fit into this protocol since I am definitely carrying out my warrior run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Going back to my run with the warrior diet I have a question about my 4hr overfeeding period in the evening. 3 days a week my overfeeding will be high carb and 4 days a week it will be low carb.

    I currently have ALA, Recompadrol, and Slin-Sane v2 at my disposal. My main carb intakes are right after I work out which is not the ideal time to use GDA's since my body is in a very high state for utilizing nutrients already. I don't think the small 300cal or less snacks throughout the day really warrant a GDA from what I can tell. Would you guys even use a GDA at all and if so where would you utilize it? I may even sell it to fund something else that would better fit into this protocol since I am definitely carrying out my warrior run.
    Not worth it.
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    If anything i would take a dose of GDA prior to sleep but thats just what i would do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    If anything i would take a dose of GDA prior to sleep but thats just what i would do.
    Is that supposed to help raise GH levels? I've heard about people doing that before and I tried it for a little while with agmatine at 1g each night. Couldn't really notice much and felt that 1g served me better pre-workout. What have you noticed from the pre-bed protocol?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Not worth it.
    That's what I was thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post

    Is that supposed to help raise GH levels? I've heard about people doing that before and I tried it for a little while with agmatine at 1g each night. Couldn't really notice much and felt that 1g served me better pre-workout. What have you noticed from the pre-bed protocol?
    I've tried a couple diff gda's pre bed and def felt some deeper sleep from it. Can't really say much as far as gh goes since there's no way to tell but it made a difference in falling, staying, and deepening my sleep. Only downside was I felt groggy some mornings when the alarm went off mid dream ha
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    Weight loss comes from a caloric deficit. Period
    Why would you negate a macronutrient because it has plenty of benefits?
    Carbs are protein sparing once minimum's are met
    Carbs help raise leptin
    Leptin helps burn extra fat and extra weight when in a deficit which happens from carb-ups/cheat meals etc
    Carbs are also the main form of energy (Glucose) Especially performed during HIIT Cardio, so one on a keto diet doing HIIT Cardio they are tapping what? nothing, they have no glucose, LISS burns and taps fat reserves which would be optimal for someone on keto (hence dave's keto diet with massive cheat meals)

    not a single study shown via weightlifting and fatloss
    one study has to deal with cognitive thinking, but in rats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Weight loss comes from a caloric deficit. Period
    Why would you negate a macronutrient because it has plenty of benefits?
    Carbs are protein sparing once minimum's are met
    Carbs help raise leptin
    Leptin helps burn extra fat and extra weight when in a deficit which happens from carb-ups/cheat meals etc
    Carbs are also the main form of energy (Glucose) Especially performed during HIIT Cardio, so one on a keto diet doing HIIT Cardio they are tapping what? nothing, they have no glucose, LISS burns and taps fat reserves which would be optimal for someone on keto (hence dave's keto diet with massive cheat meals)

    not a single study shown via weightlifting and fatloss
    The studies were not geared toward a calorie deficit. And calling a calorie a calorie is simply misguided. Ketogenic diets improve CVD biomarkets and lipid profiles; this is shown in LCD and VLCKD.

    Carbs are not the body's primary source of energy; they are only that way because you eat them and eating carbs inhibits lipolysis. Fat provides more energy per gram and is far more sustainable.
    The body, once keto adapted, can use ketones to fuel exercise of any intensity and, the body is sufficiently capable of producing carbohydrates from non-carbohydrate sources.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    The studies were not geared toward a calorie deficit. And calling a calorie a calorie is simply misguided. Ketogenic diets improve CVD biomarkets and lipid profiles; this is shown in LCD and VLCKD.

    Carbs are not the body's primary source of energy; they are only that way because you eat them and eating carbs inhibits lipolysis. Fat provides more energy per gram and is far more sustainable.
    The body, once keto adapted, can use ketones to fuel exercise of any intensity and, the body is sufficiently capable of producing carbohydrates from non-carbohydrate sources.
    So your saying a Keto diet is therefore superior for a gaining phase since none of them had to deal with a dieting phase? If so why?
    Again once you reach protein and fat minimums what is going to be more protein sparing? Adding in more protein to the point of 1.5-2g/lb or adding in carbs which will have protein sparing efects? Most of us who do not take forms of drugs/supplements that would cause an increased P-Ratio/Turnover may not benefit from doing so in the long run.

    Sure my Cholesterol levels, and LDL Levels have dropped a ton even on a low fat diet (55-60g) a day from eating more beef and whole eggs, more than a higher fat diet has ever treated me (i use to eat 100 or so) when i would carb cycle, but to me the mental/physical aspects were not worth it
    bloated, lack of energy, worse gym performance etc.

    This is too individualistic. Some cant eat that way because it does not suit their body. Both are great, but many will find (if they can tolerate carbs) It treats them for the better. Many look at Keto and think OMG no carbs ill lose weight quick, they drop carbs, they lose water weight, and then when they stall they are clueless what to do next because they axe their kcal intake so fast the only resort they have is to jack up cardio. Most rarely use Keto for a gaining or mass phase. Its rare, but some people have to use it. I know an individual personally who thrives off protein and fat, but for the majority who do train and workout they are carb based or include various forms of carbs.

    I think keto may have some benefits (especially towards the end of a contest prep diet) Where its needed to get so low to get the last bit of fat off with massive refeeds to help speed up t3, LEPTIN, and hormone levels and burn the last bit of fat, but for the majority i think its an escape they feel they may get results off of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    So your saying a Keto diet is therefore superior for a gaining phase since none of them had to deal with a dieting phase? If so why?
    Again once you reach protein and fat minimums what is going to be more protein sparing? Adding in more protein to the point of 1.5-2g/lb or adding in carbs which will have protein sparing efects? Most of us who do not take forms of drugs/supplements that would cause an increased P-Ratio/Turnover may not benefit from doing so in the long run.

    Sure my Cholesterol levels, and LDL Levels have dropped a ton even on a low fat diet (55-60g) a day from eating more beef and whole eggs, more than a higher fat diet has ever treated me (i use to eat 100 or so) when i would carb cycle, but to me the mental/physical aspects were not worth it
    bloated, lack of energy, worse gym performance etc.

    This is too individualistic. Some cant eat that way because it does not suit their body. Both are great, but many will find (if they can tolerate carbs) It treats them for the better. Many look at Keto and think OMG no carbs ill lose weight quick, they drop carbs, they lose water weight, and then when they stall they are clueless what to do next because they axe their kcal intake so fast the only resort they have is to jack up cardio. Most rarely use Keto for a gaining or mass phase. Its rare, but some people have to use it. I know an individual personally who thrives off protein and fat, but for the majority who do train and workout they are carb based or include various forms of carbs.

    I think keto may have some benefits (especially towards the end of a contest prep diet) Where its needed to get so low to get the last bit of fat off with massive refeeds to help speed up t3, LEPTIN, and hormone levels and burn the last bit of fat, but for the majority i think its an escape they feel they may get results off of.
    And conversely, many do not like high carb diets. For me personally, I felt rubbish. So subjective measures mean nothing.

    Also, for muscle building, I offer the following: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/9/5175.full

    Also, proteins have the potential to be insulinogenic and thus, reduce protein breakdown PWO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    And conversely, many do not like high carb diets. For me personally, I felt rubbish. So subjective measures mean nothing.

    Also, for muscle building, I offer the following: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/90/9/5175.full

    Also, proteins have the potential to be insulinogenic and thus, reduce protein breakdown PWO.
    For me my diet is best for gaining weight at 30g over body weight for carbs and 30-50g under body weight for cutting if I do add carbs otherwise I need to keep carbs under 60
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    I gotta agree with Jiigz on this. I believe the saying a calorie is a calorie is simply overly simplistic. The body reacts differently to different inputs, hence supplementation, pre workouts, trans fats being pretty much outlawed etc.

    It's only common sense that cutting out or exacerbating the metabolic pathways triggered from a macronutrient such as carbs would have a profound internal effect beyond just calories in, calories out.

    Now, can you debate explicitly whether the fat burning makes a real-world difference? Sure. But the fact is that not only is there a difference in how your body reacts is not only relevant, but still valid to those wanting to optimize lifestyle for ones goal
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    Viewing weight loss as a calories in vs. calories out equation is grossly over simplified and ignores the downstream metabolic consequences some nutrients have plus it also assumes you have absolute control over energy intake and expenditure, which we do not.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Viewing weight loss as a calories in vs. calories out equation is grossly over simplified and ignores the downstream metabolic consequences some nutrients have plus it also assumes you have absolute control over energy intake and expenditure, which we do not.
    Correct
    Micronutrients have to be the #1 factor considered REGARDLESS of caloric intake. I think that is the #1 downfall of people with cals in vs cals out. They dont consider vitamins/minerals as their #1 aspect towards reaching their caloric goal

    NOW granted when you cut this is VERY limited and the amount you get comes down to satisfcation with higher density of foods such as veggies, fruits, protein as your bulk of intake because of restriction and overall satiety in aspect.

    People when in a bulking phase will get carried away and use many different things but the factor should be WHOLE FOODS #1

    Minimums have to be met.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Correct
    Micronutrients have to be the #1 factor considered REGARDLESS of caloric intake. I think that is the #1 downfall of people with cals in vs cals out. They dont consider vitamins/minerals as their #1 aspect towards reaching their caloric goal

    NOW granted when you cut this is VERY limited and the amount you get comes down to satisfcation with higher density of foods such as veggies, fruits, protein as your bulk of intake because of restriction and overall satiety in aspect.

    People when in a bulking phase will get carried away and use many different things but the factor should be WHOLE FOODS #1

    Minimums have to be met.
    I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at. I'm actually non-keto lower carb (~100g carbs per day) which suits me fine given that I tend to err towards meat products anyway.
    The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at. I'm actually non-keto lower carb (~100g carbs per day) which suits me fine given that I tend to err towards meat products anyway.
    The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
    I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal I likes my oatmeal too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at.
    The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
    EXACTLY. Protein and fat have to be met regardless of goal (Cutting or bulking) but again some people thrive off higher fat and some dont. Some get bogged down, some get less performance, some have less energy, and they feel crappy. Same with some on higher carbs. Again the body is not a textbook, everyone is different in their approach on what they find works best for them.

    The only thing we can do is take what we READ and what we see work with others, apply it, trial and error, and proceed forward on what is OPTIMAL for us.
    Nuts in general i feel are very overrated, especially dieting. The satisfaction of a few nuts is nothing. I would much rather have some PB or avacado, or something that has a bit more volume . especially because omega 3's are very hard to reach when in a deficit and omega 6's/9's are always over abused by most individuals in a bulking phase where as other micronutrients from fat sources are never really met. Some people dont get enough DPH/EPA in general (from their fish oil supp or under dose it)

    But again, everyone likes different sources and what suits them. There is no cookie cutter plan out there ever, its always changing/evoloving on what works for people and its always being tested with new things year in and year out on what it takes for that individual to look and perform their best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal I likes my oatmeal too
    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
    Well yeah its also based upon the individual. I was just making a statement about myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

    I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal again everyone is different!
    Potatoes all day!!!
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    Potatoes and jasmine rice for me!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Potatoes all day!!!
    lol to Jiigzz on if as he was on the great potato famine
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Potatoes all day!!!
    Love em! Fill you up (Satiety) and full of potassium which many do not get enough of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Love em! Fill you up (Satiety) and full of potassium which many do not get enough of.
    Yes! and high in Vit C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    lol to Jiigzz on if as he was on the great potato famine
    LOL
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    Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

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    >SNS-Glycophase<
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    Carb cycling with a weekly Skipload FTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

    <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88 632"/>
    If I had a dime every time I heard a person say that... I'd have like 50 dimes.
    Fun fact: I have yet to see anyone say that and produce a 6 pack.


    I don't see any evidence to support paleo. I get its easy to monitor your diet when you cut out certain things, but I don't see why macros need to come from certain places. I think it's ease of adherence is an easy thing to follow that cuts out a lot of bad stuff, but I don't think it's optimal or better than simply tracking macros and making good decisions (ie 200g carbs from a sweet potato vs pancakes)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

    "I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

    Name:  Screen Shot 2013-09-13 at 6.08.47 AM.png
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    http://www.nsca.com/uploadedFiles/NS...ook/Aragon.pdf

    ^^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Interesting read. According to my history professors, Paleolithic man initially lived on a diet predominately consisting if animals crap, roots, and bark. 100% truth.
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    If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.
    My current UNsponsored PES EP cutting log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/234161-adonisbelts-pes-erase.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.
    Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking in that case I train while eating a Big Mac

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking in that case I train while eating a Big Mac
    "Doesn't make a difference"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3639860/

    However this one is really interesting...

    "This study for the first time shows that fasted training is more potent than fed training to facilitate adaptations in muscle and to improve whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during hyper-caloric fat-rich diet."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...7/#!po=4.39189

    Is this a nail in the coffin for fed training advocacy during a cut?
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