Nutrition and Health Roundtable

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  1. Especially when carb cycling those refeed days are a must. Now cheat days where you eat anything you want meeeeh I'm not really a fan. I always felt like crap the next day after eating clean for the rest of the week.

    I think the key here is to find foods that 1) you enjoy 2)don't toatly skew your numbers 3) are not in your normal dietary intake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Especially when carb cycling those refeed days are a must. Now cheat days where you eat anything you want meeeeh I'm not really a fan. I always felt like crap the next day after eating clean for the rest of the week.

    I think the key here is to find foods that 1) you enjoy 2)don't toatly skew your numbers 3) are not in your normal dietary intake.
    Cheat Day = Stupid
    Cheat Meal = Beneficial.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    First Article:

    Do you believe in Intermittent Fasting and other non-generic meal patterns? Do you have to eat a certain amount of times per day to eat and why? It seems Meal Frequency is thrown around as Layne Norton has a 4-5 meal approach with BCAA’s in between, and some individuals who follow Intermittent Fasting thrive off 2-3 meals. What do you believe is optimal?


    Layne Norton, PhD
    The big question is, optimal for whom? Layne’s protocol’s theoretical basis is sound, at least on paper. It aims to strike a balance between avoiding the refractory nature of MPS under conditions of constantly elevated circulating amino acids, while still maximizing the number of nutrient-mediated anabolic ‘spikes’ through the day. This protocol might be appropriate for someone trying to pull the final strings to edge out the competition on a bodybuilding stage. However, I’m skeptical that this strategy would benefit those already consuming a high protein intake (which is already rich in BCAAs). For most non-competitors, I don’t see the realistic long-term sustainability of this routine.

    As for the other end of the spectrum (2-3 meals per day), this is obviously more realistic for regular people. This works out well, since the importance of muscle retention during dieting varies according to the population. The more overfat & deconditioned someone is, the greater the proportional & net loss of fat vs. muscle is when dieting. Further along the progression, the leaner & more conditioned someone is, the more muscle they stand to lose as they continue to diet. So, can low meal frequency work for competitors? Yes, it can. Is it optimal? Well, that’s a question that so far doesn’t have a definitive, science-based answer, and it might never have one. For advanced athletes in a dieting situation, the objective is to retain as much muscle as possible while losing fat, since muscle loss at this point is a more urgent threat than it is for guys coming straight off the couch. Nitpicking for advanced athletes, I‘d speculate that anything below 3 meals (technically, 3 protein feedings) per day is not optimal, regardless of program phase.

    Second:

    Research Summary

    Meal Frequency

    § A haphazard/randomly variable meal frequency, not necessarily a lower frequency, negatively impacts thermogenesis, blood lipids, and insulin sensitivity.
    § Within a day, a higher frequency has no thermodynamic advantage over a lower frequency under controlled conditions.
    § The majority of controlled intervention trials show no improvement in body composition with a higher meal frequency.
    § Studies indicating the disappearance or lack of hunger in dieters occur in either complete starvation, or very low calorie VLCD regimes (800 kcal/day or less).
    § Hunger is a persistent problem with reduced meal frequency in non-starvation and other protocols with calories above VLCD levels.
    § For controlling appetite, the majority of research indicates the superiority of a higher meal frequency.
    § The body appears to be "metabolically primed" to receive calories and nutrients after an overnight fast. Breakfast is a particularly beneficial time to have dietary protein, since muscle protein synthethis rates are typically lowest at this time.
    § Overall, both experimental and observational research points to breakfast improving memory, test grades, school attendance, nutrient status, weight control, and muscle protein synthesis.

    Intermittent Fasting

    § Animal research has shown a number of positive health effects of ADF and CR.
    § Human ADF research is scarce and less consistent than animal research, showing both benefits (insulin sensitivity is the most consistent outcome) and risks (impaired glucose tolerance in women).
    § So far, control groups are absent in all human ADF studies. Thus, no comparative conclusions can be drawn between ADF and linear caloric intake.
    § The of the single published controlled trial to date (Stote, et al) comparing 1 versus 3 meals is heavily confounded by an exceptionally high dropout rate in the 1-a-day group, and the use of BIA to measure body composition.
    § The 1-a-day group reported increasing hunger levels throughout the length of the trial, echoing the problem of hunger with a reduced meal frequency seen in other similar research.
    § Ramadan fasting (12-16 hours per day, sunrise to sunset) decreases daytime alertness, mood, wakefulness, competitive athletic performance, and increases the incidence of traffic accidents. It's difficult to determine the relative contributions of dehydration and a lack of food to these adverse phenomena.
    § The effects of exercise and meal frequency on body composition is an interesting but largely unexplored area of research.

    Fasting & Exercise

    § Improvements in insulin sensitivity, glucose tolerance (except in women undergoing ADF), bodyweight/bodyfat, blood pressure, blood lipids, and heart rate are commonly cited benefits of IF & CR.
    § All of the above benefits can be achieved by exercise, minus the downsides of fasting.
    § IF and CR have both been found to have neuroprotective effects by increasing BDNF levels.
    § A growing body of research shows that exercise can also increase BDNF, and the degree of effect appears to be intensity-dependent.
    § Based on the limited available data, resistance training performance, especially if its not particularly voluminous, might not be enhanced by preworkout EAA+CHO.
    § Despite equivocal performance effects of pre- or midworkout EAA+CHO, it minimizes muscle damage that occurs from fasted resistance training.
    § Immediate preworkout protein and/or EAA+CHO increases protein synthesis more than fasted resistance training with those substrates ingested immediately postworkout.
    § It’s possible that a partial fast (as short as 4 hours) before resistance training can negatively impact muscle protein status.

    Conclusion

    It's given that personal goals and individual response are the ultimate navigators of any protocol. Therefore, training and meal schedules should be built upon individual preferences & tolerances, which undoubtedly will differ. However, the purpose of this article is to arm the reader with the facts, so that opinions and anecdotes can be judged accordingly. Personal testimony is invariably biased by the powerful placebo effect of suggestion, and sometimes by ulterior agenda. Science is perched on one end of the epistemological spectrum, and hearsay is on the opposite end. As the evidence clearly indicates, IF is not a bed of roses minus the thorns - there are definite pros and cons.

    In the world of fitness, recommendations for improving performance and body composition often gain blind acceptance despite a dearth of objective data. This is common in a field where high hopes and obsessive-compulsive tendencies are united with false appeals and incomplete information. In order to be proven effective beyond the mere power of suggestion, supposed truths must be put through the crucible of science. Drawing conclusions from baseless assumptions is a good way to get nowhere - fast.

    Third:

    Based on the available evidence, it’s false to assume that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal. Studies examining short-term effects have provided hints towards what might be an optimal protein dose for maximizing anabolism, but trials drawn out over longer periods haven’t supported this idea. So, is there a limit to how much protein per meal can be effectively used? Yes there is, but this limit is likely similar to the amount that’s maximally effective in an entire day. What’s the most protein that the body can effectively use in an entire day? The short answer is, a lot more than 20-30 g. The long answer is, it depends on several factors. In most cases it’s not too far from a gram per pound in drug-free trainees, given that adequate total calories are provided [8,9].

    In terms of application, I’ve consistently observed the effectiveness of having approximately a quarter of your target bodyweight in both the pre- and post-exercise meal. Note: target bodyweight is a surrogate index of lean mass, and I use that to avoid making skewed calculations in cases where individuals are markedly over- or underweight. This dose surpasses the amounts seen to cause a maximal anabolic response but doesn’t impinge upon the rest of the day’s protein allotment, which can be distributed as desired. On days off from training, combine or split up your total protein allotment according to your personal preference and digestive tolerance. I realize that freedom and flexibility are uncommon terms in physique culture, but maybe it’s time for a paradigm shift.

    In sum, view all information – especially gym folklore and short-term research – with caution. Don’t buy into the myth that protein won’t get used efficiently unless it’s dosed sparingly throughout the day. Hopefully, future research will definitively answer how different dosing schemes with various protein types affect relevant endpoints such as size and strength. In the mean time, feel free to eat the whole steak and drink the whole shake
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Ive always used Harris-Benedict equation but the katch one looks a tad more accurate since it takes into account lean body mass
    Its been the standard at the elite level for quite sometime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    Same here, once I found Katch I started using it more but it really only works better if you have a (hopefully) accurate or semi-accurate account of bodyfat.
    And therein lies the downfall... bodpod? People never accurately guage their bf levels. IIRC even bodpod readings have had holes burnt through them.
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  4. Been to bodpod with AF friend, didn't think it was super accurate but accurate enough. Calipers can give different readings on the same day, and depending on who does it. Such is life trying to find ways to measure bodyfat that doesn't cost a fortune.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    Been to bodpod with AF friend, didn't think it was super accurate but accurate enough. Calipers can give different readings on the same day, and depending on who does it. Such is life trying to find ways to measure bodyfat that doesn't cost a fortune.
    In the long run true body fat % means nothing.

    If you have the same person, measure the same spots (three or four times taking the average), the same way, at the same time of day, and gauge your progress from that though. ... then it's very useful.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Cheat Meals and Refeeds are Crucial, they help raise t3, leptin, and hormone levels when you do diet down. The further you diet the larger they will become or you could do 2x a week refeed which are not as much but still get the impact from them and the boost to your metabolism which takes a hit during the diet as it does progress. Without refeeds and cheats (i would keep cheats mostly high carb which are more beneficial for leptin levels and spiking them for your increased fatloss/weightloss)

    Some good reading:

    http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-...ting-diet.html
    http://www.biolayne.com/nutrition/bi...s-your-macros/
    http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/bo...ne-norton.html
    http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...eds_and_leptin
    http://wlzine.com/refeed-day-the-benefits/
    http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/archi...hp?t-1034.html

    "Re-feeding

    One should also incooperate re-feeds into their diet plan. Re-feeds help boost a hormone called leptin, which is the mother of all fat burning hormones. As one diets, leptin levels drop in an attempt by the body to spare body fat. Periodic, proper re-feeding can raise leptin levels and help one continue to burn fat an optimum rate. A person who is lean will need to re-feed more frequently than someone who has a higher body fat percentage. For those who are below 10%, it is probably a wise idea to in cooperate re-feeds two times per week. For those people who are in the 10-15% range, re-feeding every 6-12 days will probably be adequate, for those who are above 15%, re-feeding will probably not need to be done more than once every week to two weeks. Obviously as one loses body fat they will need to re-feed more often. Refeed days should be planned as followsâEUR¦

    Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic.
    Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels.
    Reduce protein intake to 1g/lb bodyweight
    Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels.
    Increase calories to maintenance level (or above if you are an ectomorph) and increase carbs by at least 50-100% (endoâEUR(TM)s stay on the low end, while ectoâEUR(TM)s should stay on the high end) over normal diet levels.
    "

    Shelby Starnes had a good article on T-nation about cheat meals:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...meal_manifesto
    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Especially when carb cycling those refeed days are a must. Now cheat days where you eat anything you want meeeeh I'm not really a fan. I always felt like crap the next day after eating clean for the rest of the week.

    I think the key here is to find foods that 1) you enjoy 2)don't toatly skew your numbers 3) are not in your normal dietary intake.
    I knew solution would have the goods... Thanks man. You as well montego. Can't wait to read up further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by booneman77 View Post
    I knew solution would have the goods... Thanks man. You as well montego. Can't wait to read up further.
    Anytime brother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    Been to bodpod with AF friend, didn't think it was super accurate but accurate enough. Calipers can give different readings on the same day, and depending on who does it. Such is life trying to find ways to measure bodyfat that doesn't cost a fortune.
    The thing with BodPod's is they measure internal fat as well. Calipers are mostly external. But as stated depending on who does them on you there could be various results and where they pinch.

    Comparing Calipers to BODPOD's Calipers will be lower by about 2-3% in total BF (just from what i have seen and comparing data) we had a bodpod at my college and the people who ran it would do calipers/bodpod's and then compare the results on the clients/athletes who did use it for BF readings.

    Just from what i have observed and inputting my 2 cents.
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  9. The bottom line is the various tools we have are just starting points. We try to get as close as possible but diet manipulation just takes time to perfect.
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  10. Great thread!! I'm in to read and catch up when I can. I'm going from a loose IF style diet to warrior diet setup starting today. I'm anxious to see how it goes. It's been a while, but if I remember correctly JudoJosh has mentioned warrior diets in the past. If I'm remembering correctly I'd love to hear yours and others opinions on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Great thread!! I'm in to read and catch up when I can. I'm going from a loose IF style diet to warrior diet setup starting today. I'm anxious to see how it goes. It's been a while, but if I remember correctly JudoJosh has mentioned warrior diets in the past. If I'm remembering correctly I'd love to hear yours and others opinions on it.
    basically underfeed all day and then your major meal at night
    Veggies to start, Carbs/Fat + Protein last
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  12. Thanks sillypants!! I already have it laid out so I was mainly just looking for everyone's thoughts on how it worked for them, if they feel it's viable, etc. I do appreciate your response though brutha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Thanks sillypants!! I already have it laid out so I was mainly just looking for everyone's thoughts on how it worked for them, if they feel it's viable, etc. I do appreciate your response though brutha.
    Its different for everyone
    some like 6 meals a day
    some like 3
    some like 1-2

    Personal preference in the end and how the individual enjoys it. We all come in different shapes and sizes and we all do different things that work for us. At the end of the day you need to find what is optimal for your lifestyle and for your success because it varies from every person in here and what they do .
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Its different for everyone
    some like 6 meals a day
    some like 3
    some like 1-2

    Personal preference in the end and how the individual enjoys it. We all come in different shapes and sizes and we all do different things that work for us. At the end of the day you need to find what is optimal for your lifestyle and for your success because it varies from every person in here and what they do .
    ^^ Exactly.

    Although I don't personally like or support the ideas behind the IF type diets (i have tried IF out a couple different times with terrible results) some people really enjoy them.

    My personal preference is six meals spread throughout the day with relatively the same macros per feeding.

    In my opinion a LOT of people shy away from this approach and gravitate towards IF for the simple fact it's easier to just get one or two big meals in later in the day. Tge time needed to make the meals (takes me about twenty minutes to cook six meals for my next day when I get home), carrying them around and eating at the appropriate times are all small in convinces for myself based on the results I see. But I can see how this would be a turn off.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    ^^ Exactly.

    Although I don't personally like or support the ideas behind the IF type diets (i have tried IF out a couple different times with terrible results) some people really enjoy them.

    My personal preference is six meals spread throughout the day with relatively the same macros per feeding.

    In my opinion a LOT of people shy away from this approach and gravitate towards IF for the simple fact it's easier to just get one or two big meals in later in the day. Tge time needed to make the meals (takes me about twenty minutes to cook six meals for my next day when I get home), carrying them around and eating at the appropriate times are all small in convinces for myself based on the results I see. But I can see how this would be a turn off.
    This is my approach as well. 6 meals works well for me (4-6).
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  16. Let's kick this mother****er up a notch...

    Ketogenic diets - Go

    Don't get too in depth. However, if you do, explain; break it down in layman's terms.
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    "It’s one of many options that work, depending on the individual’s circumstances. People have different goals & preferences. Nonlinear carb intake becomes necessary in some cases where the lower limits of leanness are attempted to be reached. But, this is mainly a default result of having such a minimal caloric intake rather than any sort of special effect of nonlinear carb intake. Whether or not linear or nonlinear carb reduction is done should be dictated mainly by personal preference.
    "

    "Another recent trial compared two 1500 calorie diets, a non-ketogenic diet and a ketogenic one [4]. Insulin sensitivity was equally improved between the groups. No inhibition of fat loss was seen in the non-ketogenic diet despite the fact that it was moderate in both fat (30%) and carbs (40%). In fact, the non-keto group lost more bodyweight and bodyfat than the keto group, although neither of these effects was statistically significant. It appears that any threat of fat/carb combining slowing fat loss is imagination-based."


    "I went on to examine the common methodological limitation of low-carb versus low-fat comparisons failing to match protein intake. As such, the advantage of greater thermic effect, satiety, and lean mass retention will strongly favor the groups whose protein is optimized, or at least adequate. Low-fat/high-carb treatments often fall short of adequate protein intake, and the disadvantages are inherent. A memorable example showing significantly greater effects on mood and a lack of significant difference in body composition improvement from a non-ketogenic diet compared to a ketogenic diet was by Johnston et al [4]. This study showed a trend toward more favorable effects in the non-ketogenic diet group, and the important detail is that protein intake was similar between groups, and significantly above the paltry RDA level.

    It was serendipitous that Jeff brought up Phinney et al’s 1983 study on highly trained cyclists [1], because I was well-prepared to expose its details. This study involved 5 subjects who, after 1 week on a conventional diet, were put on a ketogenic diet for 4 weeks. Both phases were eucaloric (weight-maintaining). By the end of the 4 weeks, the subjects’ steady-state respiratory quotient (RQ) dropped from 0.83 to 0.72, indicating that they indeed were fat-adapted. Exclusive carbohydrate utililzation is indicated by an RQ of 1.0 while the exclusive utilization of fat is indicated by an RQ of 0.7, so with an RQ just a hair above that, these subjects were thoroughly primed for the proposed benefits of keto-adaptation.

    Stick with me now… Pre and post-keto-adaptation endurance capacity (measured by time to exhaustion or TTE) was not significantly different. This lead the authors to conclude that aerobic endurance at 62-64% of VO2max was not compromised by the 4-week ketogenic diet phase. Mean TTE in the non-keto and keto conditions were 147 and 151 minutes, respectively. However, the authors’ conclusion is misleading since 2 of the 5 subjects experienced substantial drops in endurance capacity (48 & 51-minute declines in TTE, to be exact). One of the subjects had a freakishly high 84-minute increase in TTE, while the other increases were 3 & 30 minutes. The outlying high value was instrumental in skewing the results away from any significant decline in the keto condition’s mean TTE.

    I proceeded to discuss how 21 years after the aforementioned study [1], Phinney wrote a review in which he reflects upon the ergolytic (performance-compromising) effect of the ketogenic diet phase, stating the following (my bolding for emphasis) [5]:

    “The bicyclist subjects of this study noted a modest decline in their energy level while on training rides during the first week of the Inuit diet, after which subjective performance was reasonably restored except for their sprint capability, which remained constrained during the period of carbohydrate restriction.“

    For the record, I have Anthony Colpo to thank for catching the above tidbit. The point is, any decrease in sprinting capability can be considered a crucial liability, especially since most endurance races involve sprinting at various points. Almost invariably, sprinting to some degree occurs toward the final stretch to the finish line.

    The final segment of my presentation was a discussion of observational research including the carb-dominant dietary habits of the Blue Zone populations, who are among the longest-living and most disease-resistant in the world. I also discussed the carb-heavy diets of East African distance runners, who hold over 90% of the all-time world records and also the current top-10 positions in world ranking [6,7]. I concluded my lecture by relaying client case studies of high-level competitive & professional athletes, whose daily carbohydrate gram intakes ranged the high double-digits to the high triple-digits. My point was to illustrate the sprawlingly wide range of carbohydrate requirements across individuals, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all ideology of low-carb absolutists. Here’s the slide that put faces to the case studies of my athlete clientele over the years:

    clients
    The Repeat Round

    As I mentioned, every presentation at the conference was delivered twice, and my debate with Jeff was no exception. This made for a very odd second round, since we both knew each other’s material. The moderation was tighter on this round, and the 15-minute Powerpoint presentation limits were strictly imposed to ensure some discussion time. Jeff appeared to portray more flexibility in his position. He opted to go first again after I asked him what he preferred. He was thus able to pre-empt my mentioning of inter-individual differences in the Phinney study, and pad it with the idea that the authors expected a much worse outcome after the keto phase, but were surprised that it didn’t completely obliterate performance.

    In the discussion following our presentations, Jeff once again brought up a resistance training study [2] showing the benefits of low-carb versus low-fat. Unfortunately, this study is not readily accessible, nor is it peer-reviewed. In any case, I asked Jeff if protein intake was matched between groups, and he conceded that it was not. This opens up the possibility that a significantly higher protein intake in the low-carb group could have induced greater satiety and less overall caloric intake, resulting in greater fat loss. Again, a failure to match protein (let alone match optimized intakes, which under dieting conditions would be at least double the RDA) is a frustratingly common confounder in these types of studies.

    When I asked Jeff how we can reconcile the high-carb diets of the vast majority of world-class endurance champions, he proposed that these populations simply have not given low-carbing a fair enough shot. To me, this is quite a stretch since the best in the world would be foolish to jeopardize what has been working so stunningly well since the beginning of organized endurance competition. When Jeff was challenged on the concept of chronically depleted or low glycogen levels compromising the capacity for muscle growth, Jeff deflected to his current concentration on the clinical applications of carbohydrate restriction rather than hypertrophic applications per se.

    Did I feel that Jeff did an excellent job presenting his side and delivering useful information? Yes, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for him and his body of work. However, judging from my own observations – as well as the feedback from others – he simply did not bring a comparatively compelling case for a low-carb/ketogenic diet’s application to competitive athletes. In contrast, I was able to present multiple lines of evidence showing the benefit of both ends of the carbohydrate intake spectrum, and many points in between."
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    Alan: It depends on the overall goal that we’re talking about. This will determine whether or not a focus on carbs at the expense of fat (or vice versa) would be beneficial. I would say this as a blanket statement though: individual preference & tolerance varies. For most recreational fitness goals (as opposed to competitive athletic goals), simply nailing your macronutrient targets by the end of the day is what’s important.

    5) Keto, most efficient way of cutting – this is rather an extension of the first question, but deserving of its own response due to the ongoing debates over the superiority (or inferiority) of Keto for cutting. Is it any more effective at burning fat than other diets? Or does eating under maintenance prevail as the winner regardless of the methods used? We know carbohydrates retain water, and proteins are diuretics. Can the initial effects of Keto be understood through the non-existent intake of the former and higher intake of the latter? (appearance of being leaner, with long-term Keto effects stabilizing on par with other diets) Or is Keto really the most optimal?

    Alan: There’s nothing inherently special about keto in terms of fat-loss benefits. This has been shown repeatedly in long-term research that’s reasonably controlled (as opposed to the ad-libitum or free-living research) . It’s important to realize that the current research is not sufficient grounds to be dogmatic about low-carbing in the first place. Studies often do not match protein intakes between diets. Adequate protein intakes have multiple advantages (ie, LBM support, satiety, thermic effect), and they simply end up being compared to inadequate protein intakes. Thus, it’s not lower carb intake per se that imparts any advantage, it’s the higher protein intake.

    Once you match protein intake between diets, the one with more carbs is actually the one with the potential for a slight metabolic advantage. In any case, there’s a large middle ground here that tends to get ignored by folks who believe in a ‘metabolic advantage’ of keto/low-carb. It’s always either-or for them, when in fact, individual carbohydrate demands vary widely depending upon personal tolerance & preference, not to mention individual goals. For some folks, low-carb is warranted. For others, it isn’t. It always amazes me how hard that concept is to grasp for keto absolutists.
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  20. Going back to my run with the warrior diet I have a question about my 4hr overfeeding period in the evening. 3 days a week my overfeeding will be high carb and 4 days a week it will be low carb.

    I currently have ALA, Recompadrol, and Slin-Sane v2 at my disposal. My main carb intakes are right after I work out which is not the ideal time to use GDA's since my body is in a very high state for utilizing nutrients already. I don't think the small 300cal or less snacks throughout the day really warrant a GDA from what I can tell. Would you guys even use a GDA at all and if so where would you utilize it? I may even sell it to fund something else that would better fit into this protocol since I am definitely carrying out my warrior run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Going back to my run with the warrior diet I have a question about my 4hr overfeeding period in the evening. 3 days a week my overfeeding will be high carb and 4 days a week it will be low carb.

    I currently have ALA, Recompadrol, and Slin-Sane v2 at my disposal. My main carb intakes are right after I work out which is not the ideal time to use GDA's since my body is in a very high state for utilizing nutrients already. I don't think the small 300cal or less snacks throughout the day really warrant a GDA from what I can tell. Would you guys even use a GDA at all and if so where would you utilize it? I may even sell it to fund something else that would better fit into this protocol since I am definitely carrying out my warrior run.
    Not worth it.
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  22. If anything i would take a dose of GDA prior to sleep but thats just what i would do.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    If anything i would take a dose of GDA prior to sleep but thats just what i would do.
    Is that supposed to help raise GH levels? I've heard about people doing that before and I tried it for a little while with agmatine at 1g each night. Couldn't really notice much and felt that 1g served me better pre-workout. What have you noticed from the pre-bed protocol?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Not worth it.
    That's what I was thinking.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post

    Is that supposed to help raise GH levels? I've heard about people doing that before and I tried it for a little while with agmatine at 1g each night. Couldn't really notice much and felt that 1g served me better pre-workout. What have you noticed from the pre-bed protocol?
    I've tried a couple diff gda's pre bed and def felt some deeper sleep from it. Can't really say much as far as gh goes since there's no way to tell but it made a difference in falling, staying, and deepening my sleep. Only downside was I felt groggy some mornings when the alarm went off mid dream ha
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