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Protein Intake ---> Reference from Alan Aragon:

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    Protein Intake ---> Reference from Alan Aragon:


    "Research indeed exists showing beneficial effects of protein intakes beyond 1 g/lb. It's not a vast body of literature, but it exists nonetheless. And the kicker is, these amounts (ranging from 2.3-2.7 g/kg depending on the study) were seen in both deficit & surplus conditions. Heck, even Stuart Phillips, known for being super-conservative, acknowledged the ultility of 1.8-2.7 g/kg for athletes in a deficit in a recent review paper. As a general rule, protein demands are higher for lean, trained athletes in an energy deficit."[/b]

    ^There's my quote, which I recently modified to include the mentioning of benefit from consuming 3.0 g/kg in this paper: Role of protein and amino acids in promoting lea... [Amino Acids. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

    Wonderpug is correct that this large amount was compared with suboptimal intake. However, I don't see the strong argument against going as high as 3.0 g/kg. If anyone wants to present one, then great; I just don't think it presents any safety risks (or other detriments) that warrant any particular caution. Additionally, 3.0 is close enough to 2.7 g/kg, which has been demonstrated to be effective (I'll get to that).

    Now, Let's take a look at where I got the 2.3-2.7 kg figures.

    Mettler et al (Increased protein intake reduces lean b... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI) compared 1.0 g/kg with 2.3 g/kg in lean athletic subjects in an energy deficit, and the latter outperformed the former for guarding against LBM loss. However - and this is the big point - 2.3 g/kg was still insufficient for completely preserving LBM. Notably, the subjects trained an average of 334 minutes per week (resistance training + cardio). They lost less LBM consuming 2.3 g/kg than the group consuming 1.0g/kg. Keep in mind that it's not like the subjects were starving; they consumed slightly more than 2000 kcal throughout the trial.

    Along these lines, Maestu et al (Anabolic and catabolic hormones and ener... [J Strength Cond Res. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI) saw better LBM preservation than Mettler et al did, and intakes ranged 2.3-2.6 g/kg.

    Next up, we have Hoffman et al (Efficacy of phosphatidic acid ingestio... [J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI), who sought to examine the effect of phosphatidic acid (PA) supplementation, but also ended up comparing different protein intakes, 2.1 g/kg in the control & 2.6 g/kg in the treatment group. The latter outperformed the former, and my hunch is that it could have been due to the higher protein intake rather than the PA specifically. It's notable that these results were seen in caloric maintenance conditions.

    Willoughby et al (Effects of resistance training and protein plus ... [Amino Acids. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI) examined the effect of a protein & amino acid supplement & ended up observing the treatment group with an intake of ~2.7 g/kg outperform the control group, whose intake was ~2.2 g/kg. Notably, this occurred under caloric surplus conditions.

    All research has its limitations, and the aforementioned can be criticized for having the typical shortcomings of a small subject number &/or short duration.

    A paper by Phillips & Van Loon (Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements... [J Sports Sci. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI) mentions the following: "To optimize the ratio of fat-to-lean tissue mass loss during hypoenergetic periods, athletes are advised to [...] increase their protein intake to ~2030% of their energy intake or ~1.82.7 g/kg/day." I'm not saying that the recommendations of some of the top protein researchers should be taken as gospel, but it's worth noting that their recommendations indeed exceed ~0.8 g/lb for certain scenarios. It's not just something I personally made up because I'm a bro who likes BBing.

    I thus stand by the points I made in "The Quote" - the latest version of which I'll simply reiterate here:
    ______________________________ ___________

    [i]Research indeed exists showing beneficial effects of protein intakes beyond 1 g/lb. It's not a vast body of literature, but it exists nonetheless. And the kicker is, these amounts (ranging from 2.3-2.7 g/kg depending on the study) were seen in both deficit & surplus conditions. Heck, one of the most prolific protein researchers Stuart Phillips, known for being conservative, acknowledged the ultility of 1.8-2.7 g/kg for athletes in a deficit in a recent review paper. In a more recent paper, Phillips even pushes the upper end to 3.0 g/kg.

    As a general rule, protein demands are higher for lean, trained athletes in an energy deficit. You also have to consider the limitations of the research. Just because a certain amount of protein can prevent negative nitrogen balance does not mean this is an accurate reflection of muscle preservation (let alone an indicator of optimal intake for gain). N-bal is notorious for overestimating muscle protein status. There's even research showing positive N-balance concurrent with LBM loss. Lol, there's research showing a prevention of negative N-balance during endstage starvation as a survival defense response.

    Another confounder is that protein needs in the literature are expressed in terms of total body mass. This is sort of a necessary evil when discussing the literature, which does not express protein needs as g/kg LBM. So, when mentioning that protein needs are lower for eucaloric & hypercalorc conditions as opposed to hypocaloric conditions in lean/athletic subjects, this is in reference to *proportional* differences. ABSOLUTE needs can be quite similar among those with the same LBM. Also keep in mind that the optimal protein requirements of folks on ergogenic supplements like creatine (or AAS) have simply not been investigated, much less systematically investigated for the purpose of establishing dose-response relationships. There in all likelihood is a higher ceiling of protein dosing effectiveness in these individuals, as well as a lower threshold of protein dosing for muscle retention. Assuming that the effective protein dosage ceiling is the same in natties & enhanced athletes is foolish. Protein requirements for off-season & pre-contest bodybuilders (& other athletes) under varying degrees of deficit & surplus is still open to investigation, particularly in the context of rigorous, periodized training programs.

    You also have to realize that the figures that get spit up in study outcomes are expressed as means (averages). This means that a mixed bag of responses occurred, some substantially higher or lower than the reported mean value. If you really want to rigidly latch on to some mean value and believe that it unquestionably applies to you, then you're making quite the leap of faith.
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    This is interesting and I may use some of this research for some of my classes.
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    You dun' it now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou321 View Post
    This is interesting and I may use some of this research for some of my classes.


    Would be a great investment for your class buddy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Would be a great investment for your class buddy!
    Thanks man!
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    Interesting. I've been eating well in excess of 1gm/lb for a while. If I did the math right, the author is recommending 1.35gm/lb. This is very close to what I subjectively found to work well also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysiii View Post
    Interesting. I've been eating well in excess of 1gm/lb for a while. If I did the math right, the author is recommending 1.35gm/lb. This is very close to what I subjectively found to work well also.
    Agreed. That's what I've been doing and it works wonders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysiii View Post
    Interesting. I've been eating well in excess of 1gm/lb for a while. If I did the math right, the author is recommending 1.35gm/lb. This is very close to what I subjectively found to work well also.
    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    Agreed. That's what I've been doing and it works wonders.
    Alan has an amazing AARR Review you should check it out:

    http://alanaragon.com/researchreview
    4 years of his resaerch and there is a sample article you can read regarding post-wrokout fat and it being prefectly fine:

    Protein per meal:

    http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

    My interview with Alan:

    http://www.machinemuscle.com/intervi...t-alan-aragon/

    Another good one:

    http://alanaragon.com/protein-scare-...r-reports.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post

    Alan has an amazing AARR Review you should check it out:

    http://alanaragon.com/researchreview
    4 years of his resaerch and there is a sample article you can read regarding post-wrokout fat and it being prefectly fine:

    Protein per meal:

    http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

    My interview with Alan:

    http://www.machinemuscle.com/intervi...t-alan-aragon/

    Another good one:

    http://alanaragon.com/protein-scare-...r-reports.html
    Thanks bud.
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    Eric Helms of 3dmj:

    Hey folks! So I've been in New Zealand since August 2012, a year prior to that I started an extensive lit review on protein. Primarily on hypocaloric, resistance training individuals, who are not obese, with resistance training experience. There's ~8-9 total studies out there so far that look at these conditions (depending on inclusion criteria) and 6 if we're talking studies that report LBM and bodyfat (some just give bodyweight and NBAL, etc.).

    First part of my masters (which I submit this week literally) was this systematic review. Alan was actually one of the few I trusted to give it a look over in it's very initial stages, and now it's in the final stages of review at IJSNEM, it's been through 2 rounds of revisions, updates etc., and will be in press soon. The review is as systematic and non-narrative as you can get considering the limited data available and I was able to present recommendations relative to LBM vs weight which is important. A huge issue with available data is not only the methodology of nitrogen balance as Alan pointed out but also that 90% of the studies looking at protein intake give us intakes as g/unit of TOTAL bodyweight and were done on overweight and obese populations. This drives the perception of the "right" amount of protein down as the optimal intake is likely relative to LBM.

    So the review is enlightening, puts a bit more structure and hard evidence to the discussion, when it comes out on pubmed you can believe I'll be spamming it via social media

    Also I finished my own study on July 29th of this year, I recently (today I **** you not) finished analyzing the data, I couldn't report what was going on during because I was still blinded.
    Before I get into it let me put my research, and truly all research in perspective: my study at best will only carve out a small piece of the puzzle, add context and create more questions than we began with. It's not the end to the discussion.

    Let me start with the good stuff about my study:
    Double Blinded (diet plans were modified with supplement powder that researchers and participants were not aware of the content of)
    Cross Over
    Analyzed using magnitude based inferences vs P values
    Participants were taught to track, weigh, and measure food accurately and had communication with a registered dietician throughout the study to make sure any mishaps/slip ups/food exchanges etc kept the diets in line with the experimental design
    We measured strength, anthropometrics and athlete specific psychological changes

    So, my biases won't effect the results, we can be very sure of the compliance of the participants, individual effects can be analyzed and discussed (mean changes can mask individual results), and small effects won't be "no effect" and results won't be inappropriately labeled in a binary way (two flaws of p values). These statistical aspects are critical when discerning small changes that may matter over time. And finally, we have data on a number of relevant variables

    Next, let me point out the the downsides/limitations:
    MRI, DEXA, hydrostatic weighing and ultra sound ALL fell through due to broken equipment, the inability to fix equipment, equipment not arriving, and having a grant turned down. The realities of research hit hard. So that left with me with only anthropometry to measure changes in fat mass and lean mass. Even though some of the best anthropometrists (ISAK level 4) are here at AUT, you just can't get a reliable measure of LBM from it. You can get a reliable measure of bodyweight change and skinfold (fat mass) change though, highly reliable in fact, but not muscle or LBM.
    The final limitation is the length. Crossovers need wash outs at least twice the length of the intervention, of course the interventions are separate so they take twice as long as parallel group designs. So although the time length intervention was only 2 weeks on each diet, that was the most I could manage as I was getting ethics approval from Sep-Oct, recruiting from October all the way through June, and collecting data from Feburary to July, and my Masters thesis is due...well...now pretty much lol.

    So all that said, what did I do? I compared an isocaloric, 40% caloric deficit (same as Walberg, Pasiakos, and Mettler), matched carbohydrate (walberg found performance changes when protein was modified by reducing carbs, Mettler used fat and avoided this) diet, of 2.8g/kg protein with a low fat intake to a 1.6g/kg protein with a moderate fat intake for 2 weeks in lean (13-14% bf average), resistance trained (1 year min), adult males. We tested full body maximal strength before and after, anthropometry, and athlete specific psychological stress.

    To put it simply, changes in anthropometry were almost exactly the same. Changes in strength were as well. However, the group on the lower protein intake reported higher levels of symptoms and signs for athlete related stress, high number of sources of athlete related stress, greater total mood disturbance, greater fatigue and greater dissatisfaction with the diet.

    I specifically analyzed the data with carb sources as a covariate to make sure this was not related to the large amount maltodextrin powder that comprised the 1.6g/kg groups carb intake (the 2.8g/kg group had protein powder), and the fact that not only total mood disturbance, but also specifically fatigue (which is unrelated to satiety or hunger) increased indicates this was not just due to proteins satiating effect.

    When people report stress it typically precedes or accompanies measurable physiological changes. Had the study been longer small differences in LBM changes would have become more and more detectable, if this had been a 2 month vs 2 week study would they have showed greater LBM loss in the lower protein group which might have caused the stress? Or, if we had a reliable measure of LBM would that have discerned these hard to measure changes?

    Don't know

    But what we can say is that in the context of a 40% caloric deficit, the 2.8g/kg protein, low fat diet was less stressful, less fatiguing, caused less diet stress and is therefore likely more sustainable. That said, I think probably an approach where you use a 20-30% deficit would be even better, this would allow you to not have such a low fat intake and might improve performance measures.

    I'll be posting my Masters after the external reviewers approve it and ask for revisions, it will have the systematic review, double blind cross over study, and also a chapter on what it all means for bodybuilders during contest prep (which is from an excerpt of another review I hope to publish). The masters will eventually be open access on scholarly commons. I'm also planning on trying to publish the study.
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    Thoughts The Solution?

    A Review of Issues of Dietary Protein
    Intake in Humans
    Shane Bilsborough and Neil Mann

    Considerable debate has taken place over the safety and validity of increased
    protein intakes for both weight control and muscle synthesis. The advice to consume
    diets high in protein by some health professionals, media and popular diet
    books is given despite a lack of scientific data on the safety of increasing protein
    consumption. The key issues are the rate at which the gastrointestinal tract can
    absorb amino acids from dietary proteins (1.3 to 10 g/h) and the liver’s capacity
    to deaminate proteins and produce urea for excretion of excess nitrogen.
    The
    accepted level of protein requirement of 0.8g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1 is based on structural
    requirements and ignores the use of protein for energy metabolism. High protein
    diets on the other hand advocate excessive levels of protein intake on the order
    of 200 to 400 g/d, which can equate to levels of approximately 5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1,
    which may exceed the liver’s capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea. Dangers
    of excessive protein, defined as when protein constitutes > 35% of total energy
    intake, include hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia nausea,
    diarrhea, and even death (the “rabbit starvation syndrome”). The three different
    measures of defining protein intake, which should be viewed together are: absolute
    intake (g/d), intake related to body weight (g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1) and intake as a fraction
    of total energy (percent energy). A suggested maximum protein intake based on
    bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be
    approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙
    d-1, corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d
    diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg
    person (285 to 365 g/d).
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    I'm going to pick these apart slightly: This study here found that intakes of 1.0g per KG of bodyweight was not as effective for weight loss as 2.3g however, the recommended intake for athletes is 1.8g per kg of bodyweight (for weight training athletes) so of course 1.0g would not be as effective; that simply isn't enough. However a 1.3g per KG rise over this amount is substantial and doesn't indicate that 1.8g is just as effective. It is well understood (using isotope tracers, NBAL and Leucine oxidation) that the body can only use so much protein without deaminating it or transaminating it.

    Increased protein intake reduces lean b... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    The second study here: Role of protein and amino acids in promoting lea... [Amino Acids. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI also compares a high protein diet (exceeding 2g) over a 0.8g per KG intake which is yet again 1g below the weight training recommendations of 1.8g per KG. And further; (15-25 % protein or 1.8-3.0 g kg(-1) day(-1)) is associated with lean, but not fat mass accretion, when compared to overfeeding energy with low protein intake (5 % protein or ~0.68 g kg(-1) day(-1)). Comparing it with intakes of only 0.68g per KG? That's less the recommendation for non-weight training individuals. It also noted that 1.8 was just as effective which is considered the upper limit for weight training individuals.

    The last study: Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements... [J Sports Sci. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI


    Opinion on the role of protein in promoting athletic performance is divided along the lines of how much aerobic-based versus resistance-based activity the athlete undertakes. Athletes seeking to gain muscle mass and strength are likely to consume higher amounts of dietary protein than their endurance-trained counterparts. The main belief behind the large quantities of dietary protein consumption in resistance-trained athletes is that it is needed to generate more muscle protein. Athletes may require protein for more than just alleviation of the risk for deficiency, inherent in the dietary guidelines, but also to aid in an elevated level of functioning and possibly adaptation to the exercise stimulus. It does appear, however, that there is a good rationale for recommending to athletes protein intakes that are higher than the RDA. Our consensus opinion is that leucine, and possibly the other branched-chain amino acids, occupy a position of prominence in stimulating muscle protein synthesis; that protein intakes in the range of 1.3-1.8 g kg(-1) day(-1) consumed as 3-4 isonitrogenous meals will maximize muscle protein synthesis. These recommendations may also be dependent on training status: experienced athletes would require less, while more protein should be consumed during periods of high frequency/intensity training. Elevated protein consumption, as high as 1.8-2.0 g kg(-1) day(-1) depending on the caloric deficit, may be advantageous in preventing lean mass losses during periods of energy restriction to promote fat loss.

    Again, this is the recommendation for weight training athletes and the elevation merely indicates that above RDI for non weight training individuals.

    The flaws here are that they do not compare these intakes that exceed 2g/kg/bw with diets of 1.8g/kg/bw
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    That study is based off one weight of 180 pound individual.
    Does someone who is 120 pounds need the same amount? NO
    Does someone who is 200 need the same amount? No
    Does someone who uses supplements or enhancements need the same due to increased p-ratio? no..

    Too black and white there.

    2nd study is in agreeance, because the individual is dieting and when kcals drop lower protein levels are adequate when cutting, do they need to go that high? Probably not (2kg/lb) if you did maintain 1-1.5g/lb you would still be able to elevate protein synthesis enough to reach your minimums and get the benefits regarding it.

    Overalli agree with it though, as would alan, lyle, martin etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    That study is based off one weight of 180 pound individual.
    Does someone who is 120 pounds need the same amount? NO
    Does someone who is 200 need the same amount? No
    Does someone who uses supplements or enhancements need the same due to increased p-ratio? no..

    Too black and white there.

    2nd study is in agreeance, because the individual is dieting and when kcals drop lower protein levels are adequate when cutting, do they need to go that high? Probably not (2kg/lb) if you did maintain 1-1.5g/lb you would still be able to elevate protein synthesis enough to reach your minimums and get the benefits regarding it.

    Overalli agree with it though, as would alan, lyle, martin etc.
    And where does net nitrogen utilization come Into play?
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    in your research what does the meta data agree is a minium intake that could be of benefit for a lot of people who might be traveling or what not, but are concerned that they at least reach a minimum amount for the day.

    good example would be driving a car for long periods of time and finding little to eat at a gas station after realizing u left your protean at home.
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    The minimum for any strength athlete should be 1.6g/kg/bw per day; in terms of reaching the point of full protein utilization.
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    Of recent years I would keep my protein ~40% of my diet (220-250g) because I didn't feel going above 1.5 and natural would have any additional benefit. But considering these studies, and contemplating not only the thermogenic effect of protein but the dietary roles of individual aminos , it seems that high protein may not absolutely necessary but certainly has it's pros. I wish I could see more than the abstract.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    Of recent years I would keep my protein ~40% of my diet (220-250g) because I didn't feel going above 1.5 and natural would have any additional benefit. But considering these studies, and contemplating not only the thermogenic effect of protein but the dietary roles of individual aminos , it seems that high protein may not absolutely necessary but certainly has it's pros. I wish I could see more than the abstract.
    You don't have access??? To which are you referring I might be able to get it...
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    THe PubMed ones. If I was at work I could. Maybe an I can do it through my school's site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    The minimum for any strength athlete should be 1.6g/kg/bw per day; in terms of reaching the point of full protein utilization.
    That would only put me at 129g of pro a day.

    I think it's safe to say that (sorry to switch up the units) 1g per pound is a good place to be. Not too much not too little. Most data that I've seen has recommended for athletes in regards to performance, gaining and or preserving lean mass is 1.3 - 1.8g/kg sometimes pushed to 2.0 during times of extreme training.

    Some of the studies even say as low .8 or 15% daily intake

    One thing to note here is the prevalent nature of high carb intake with most of these athletes. Elite athletes and their coaches place carbs above all else from what I've seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    THe PubMed ones. If I was at work I could. Maybe an I can do it through my school's site.
    You should have access to most journals and PubMed articles through your online school search
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    ^ from everything I've read, 0.8 is the minimal needed to maintain LBM in our daily lives. Really 1.0 is ideal. I stick around the 1.5-1.6 range but bump it up to 2.0 when training gets real brutal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    That would only put me at 129g of pro a day.

    I think it's safe to say that (sorry to switch up the units) 1g per pound is a good place to be. Not too much not too little. Most data that I've seen has recommended for athletes in regards to performance, gaining and or preserving lean mass is 1.3 - 1.8g/kg sometimes pushed to 2.0 during times of extreme training.

    Some of the studies even say as low .8 or 15% daily intake

    One thing to note here is the prevalent nature of high carb intake with most of these athletes. Elite athletes and their coaches place carbs above all else from what I've seen.
    Yep; its really not overly much. I go well beyond this (+225g per day) but would never go below 1.6g per kg BW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Yep; its really not overly much. I go well beyond this (+225g per day) but would never go below 1.6g per kg BW
    Just out of curiosity which somewhat pertains to this thread (not to derail) but are you personally a keto guy? Also, you go "well beyond this" +225g a day but you weigh 220, right? I'm telling you man that 1g/lb is the sweet spot.

    I could see the necessity for higher protein intake for those on low carb diets to account for gluconeogenesis or to receive their caloric intake from something other than fats or carbs. Other than that I can't really see the need or benefit to go overboard on protein.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Just out of curiosity which somewhat pertains to this thread (not to derail) but are you personally a keto guy? Also, you go "well beyond this" +225g a day but you weigh 220, right? I'm telling you man that 1g/lb is the sweet spot.

    I could see the necessity for higher protein intake for those on low carb diets to account for gluconeogenesis or to receive their caloric intake from something other than fats or carbs. Other than that I can't really see the need or benefit to go overboard on protein.
    Low carb non keto. I'm at ~200lb now. No need to go higher but I eat a lot of meat (typically 2 eggs, 2 rashers of bacon, 250g chicken breast, 200g Hoki or other white fish and so on) and so my protein intake just climbs.

    My fat intake sits at around 150-200g per day and carbs at ~100 but no more than 150.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Low carb non keto. I'm at ~200lb now. No need to go higher but I eat a lot of meat (typically 2 eggs, 2 rashers of bacon, 250g chicken breast, 200g Hoki or other white fish and so on) and so my protein intake just climbs.

    My fat intake sits at around 150-200g per day and carbs at ~100 but no more than 150.
    Mmmmm bacon... what are rashers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Mmmmm bacon... what are rashers?
    2 Pieces; just bacon slang lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Just out of curiosity which somewhat pertains to this thread (not to derail) but are you personally a keto guy? Also, you go "well beyond this" +225g a day but you weigh 220, right? I'm telling you man that 1g/lb is the sweet spot.I could see the necessity for higher protein intake for those on low carb diets to account for gluconeogenesis or to receive their caloric intake from something other than fats or carbs. Other than that I can't really see the need or benefit to go overboard on protein.
    That seems to be working for me too. I tried to climb to 350g of protein when I go up to 250lbs in body weight and it's just not doing anything more than 250g would except I get that ammonia smell through my sweat which is not good at all. I think there is a point of diminishing returns with protein intake even on the juice. I really dont understand ppl who inhale 500-600g of protein a day....but who knows maybe I dont know something.
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    Geez, I dont think I could even munch down 300g let alone 500. One day...
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    I'm 210 and sitting about 10% and eat 125-150 grams a day (in addition to ~40 grams of BCAA's)

    Eating very clean, using SENSIBLE macro's, macro-timing/manipulation, consistent training are the name of the game.

    Daily for me:
    125-150 P
    150 F
    50-100 C (mainly greens and fibrous varieties)

    NOT TRYING TO PREACH or STIR THE POT but I stopped listening and subscribing to the scams, overhyped advertising tricks, solicited bro-science and lies of the supplement industry (especially related to protein consumption)

    I have never been leaner, thicker and just aesthetically "better" - not to mention the lack of bloat and overall feeling of tightness in my midsection from moving past the bro-gospel of protein over-abundance.

    Just my spin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I'm 210 and sitting about 10% and eat 125-150 grams a day (in addition to ~40 grams of BCAA's)

    Eating very clean, using SENSIBLE macro's, macro-timing/manipulation, consistent training are the name of the game.

    Daily for me:
    125-150 P
    150 F
    50-100 C (mainly greens and fibrous varieties)

    NOT TRYING TO PREACH or STIR THE POT but I stopped listening and subscribing to the scams, overhyped advertising tricks, solicited bro-science and lies of the supplement industry (especially related to protein consumption)

    I have never been leaner, thicker and just aesthetically "better" - not to mention the lack of bloat and overall feeling of tightness in my midsection from moving past the bro-gospel of protein over-abundance.

    Just my spin
    I just like to eat dead animals. So my protein is high. If I manage carbs that's when I see the best physique
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    So at 230lbs ive been eating 290 to 300g daily and 350 on workout days am I way overdoing it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I'm 210 and sitting about 10% and eat 125-150 grams a day (in addition to ~40 grams of BCAA's)

    Eating very clean, using SENSIBLE macro's, macro-timing/manipulation, consistent training are the name of the game.

    Daily for me:
    125-150 P
    150 F
    50-100 C (mainly greens and fibrous varieties)

    NOT TRYING TO PREACH or STIR THE POT but I stopped listening and subscribing to the scams, overhyped advertising tricks, solicited bro-science and lies of the supplement industry (especially related to protein consumption)

    I have never been leaner, thicker and just aesthetically "better" - not to mention the lack of bloat and overall feeling of tightness in my midsection from moving past the bro-gospel of protein over-abundance.

    Just my spin
    Are you cutting or is this your normal amount of food? Seems very low for someone your size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I just like to eat dead animals. So my protein is high. If I manage carbs that's when I see the best physique
    Im an old fart in my 40's. I love the same...but any excess whatsoever just doesn't agree with me anymore.
    Constipation, bloat, sluggish/lethargy. Even with digestive enzymes and betaine HCL and ginger. Just cant do iot anymore hence the large quanties of aminos ($$$)

    Quote Originally Posted by Duramaxhd View Post
    So at 230lbs ive been eating 290 to 300g daily and 350 on workout days am I way overdoing it
    Well, maybe. Sort of depends on your goals, phenotype, kcal and other macros.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysiii View Post
    Are you cutting or is this your normal amount of food? Seems very low for someone your size.
    Maintenance. My metabolism sorta stinks

    I am convinced the amino's I slam pre/peri/post-w/o and throughout the entire day (despite the prodigious expense) have been key to many things for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    Geez, I dont think I could even munch down 300g let alone 500. One day...
    yeah I hear now and again ppl trying to reinvent the wheel by eating a ton of protein.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duramaxhd View Post
    So at 230lbs ive been eating 290 to 300g daily and 350 on workout days am I way overdoing it
    I'd say you prob do ..I'd run 200g and 250g. Cut back a bit and see how it goes. I literaly can sense my body not using anymore than 250g normally and tops 300g when im juicing. I do have many days where I eat about 200g. I had some bloodwork done while I was eating 300g of protein and kidneys were def working a little harder.
    I also have heard Kevin Levrone saying he only ate about 300g preping for shows which I believe him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I am convinced the amino's I slam pre/peri/post-w/o and throughout the entire day (despite the prodigious expense) have been key to many things for me.
    By aminos do you mean BCAAs or BCAAs and other aminos? I'm also in my 40 s and looking into changing my protein and global calories intake to some extend.
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    Subbed for later reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post

    I am convinced the amino's I slam pre/peri/post-w/o and throughout the entire day (despite the prodigious expense) have been key to many things for me.
    Eh... slamming BCAA's all day never leaves your body to reach any refractory period from constant elevation.
    Would be best to keep them to intra-workout or to between meals spaced 4-6 hours apart:

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