thoughts on paleo?
- 06-04-2013, 12:19 AM
- 06-04-2013, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by vassille
- 06-04-2013, 09:35 AM
Carbs are too involved in muscle-building processes. Its called insulin. And meat alone does not illicit a strong enough insulin response to shuttle proper amino acids and nutrients to muscle cells. Certain aminos can only be transported via insulin thus carbs are needed at every meal when bulking.
06-04-2013, 09:37 AM
True. I'm goin thru the same thing by cutting back on my carbs as of now. Yet, I also train intensely when it comes to legs, so on those days I have agreed to carb up regardless since the extra glycogen is appreciated during training.
06-04-2013, 09:52 AM
i kinda feel it's tough for me to grow on really low carb. i have been thus trying to eat more carbs, but still clean.
06-04-2013, 10:54 AM
1) Reducing fats quickens the food breakdown in the stomach. Bad thing here is that it could lead to an insulin surge causing fat gain. The good part is that the food doesn't stay in your stomach very long and hunger sets in pretty soon afterwards. I have found that carbs/ high protein amounts with low fat is a good compromise. It doesn't cause a sugar rush/crash but it also doesn't fill you up too long either. Eating fibrous carbs at every meal also helps as well.
2) Good carbs have a lot of nutrients to offer. Generally speaking, fat only offers calories. I realize fats play roles other than just offering energy but in the realm of comparing fats to carbs, fats do not offer as much micro-nutritional benefits.
I've noticed that our western society really embraces low carb/no carb diets far more than they embrace a balanced approach. My speculation is that part of this is due to the number of overweight, obese and "endomorphic" people there are in our society. There is no doubt low carb diets cause fat loss but that doesn't necessarily equate to a "healthy" diet and certainly doesn't mean that its ideal for bodybuilders trying to pack on muscle mass.
The fact is, regardless of what you eat, you have to go workout and peform regular and challenging cardio to have any real results. I think people are taking extreme approaches to dieting because they are unwilling to take any approach to consistent dedication in the gym. Thus, we have ideas like, "let's try starving oursevles and eat no carbs for 6 months"...but obviously those diets are not sustainable or healthy. I think that is where Paleo probably came from. Someone tried to take a more modest & common sense approach to the "keto" diet by realizing that carbs can be allowed at certain times and for certain purposes. Interestingly, the OP is also saying the even Paleo isn't sustainable for him either.
06-04-2013, 12:06 PM
06-05-2013, 09:30 AM
Im doing what you can so call I paleo plan but with raw grass fed milk.I feel no better if not worse but figured out Im not eating enough.Only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why so many say this is a great plan did they know cavemen avg life span was 16yrs old??I use it as a guide and mainly swapped grains/starchs for fruits/veggies.
As everything in life over time we make things alot better for the most part with exception of processed foods.
I say eat clean,as much fresh foods as possiable and for non country folk organic.(I have fruit stands/markets,butcher shops,dairies)all are fresh free range ect..and most important cheaper then a store.
Remember were not chasing down that friggin deer to eat or killing it with our bare hands,so for all the die hard paleo people out there until you actually stalk/kill/skin your game build a fire without a lighter and not drink from a sink its not paleo.Just my 2 cents.
06-05-2013, 10:30 AM
06-05-2013, 11:10 AM
For the fruits I eat 1-2 serv(25g each)a day,half-1 pre morning workout and go with a baked sweet potatoe post(only time/starch I eat)and snack on some berries or a apple later in day.And anything if you eat to much of gets stored as fat(protein/fat/ect...)
My total fruit intake a week is not even 100g of cho so im really not worried about it being stored as fat,at 7% I could use some mybe?
All this would really be more worried about if I was a bodybuilder im just a country guy that's been into fitness for awhile and was the fat kid until 10yrs ago(250lbs)traded my alcohol/drug addiction for fitness.
06-05-2013, 12:48 PM
06-05-2013, 01:12 PM
06-05-2013, 01:15 PM
When I do eat fruit(mostly fresh berries and apples)I drink raw apple cider vinegar and with all the calcium I get don't think a lot is going to liver(calcium helps to direct to muscle)cider keeps blood sugar stable.
06-05-2013, 03:55 PM
06-06-2013, 12:27 AM
06-06-2013, 12:34 AM
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06-06-2013, 12:48 AM
Real ripe bananas' ratio is more favorable(glucose vs fructose). One of the fruits I still eat.Originally Posted by Driven2lift
06-06-2013, 07:34 AM
Bad part about that for me is nothing works,i get no energy from anything I eat(clean or unclean)fruit,milk,nuts,coconu t oil/meat nothing.
It seems like this beat body I got is saving every cal and shutting me down.Coffee doesn't even help and I don't drink a lot of it either.
06-06-2013, 07:48 AM
It's all about training your body to burn the right fuel at the right time... Paleo, CKD, etc etc can help get you there, but there is no need to strictly adhere to them. Mike T. Nelson's Metabolic Flexibility is where it's at. I cut 2.5% bf and gained over 5 lbs of muscle in a month using one of the programs from Geoff Neupert's "More Kettlebell Muscle" (kb complexes, this particular program was 9 weeks) combined with stuff I learned from Mike T. Nelson ... Variability in diet was a big factor, for a month I ate 5-6 meals a day, next month only dinner (Warrior diet), this month is Leangains. Definitely didn't avoid junk food, definitely cut calories during the week(between 1200-3200 weekly deficit, RMR values determined by gas exchange test), cycled carbs(only had starches after my most intense training sessions), and actually reduced fat intake to under 80 grams 5-6 days a week. Eating "clean" all the time is overrated. Solid programming, keeping a food journal to keep you honest, and actively reducing emotional stress finally got me under 15% bf.. The only cardio I did was one or 2 Spin classes a week.FWIW, YMMV.... I have before and after pictures if anyone is interested. The only muscle building supplements I used were creatine, beta alanine, and milk protein concentrate. I also use GABA, melatonin, 5-HTP, powdered cal-mag, and sometimes ashwagandha to help improve quality of sleep.
"Paleo" is kinda silly, and not practical in the world we live in. Plus Big Macs are kinda really delicious. So are Frosted Mini Wheats and pancakes. In the end you have to figure out what works for you because nothing is one size fits all, just don't cave to fads...
06-06-2013, 10:35 AM
06-06-2013, 10:51 AM
1) Eat enough calories. To me, and to biologists/exercise science majors, that number is no more than a 10% deficit from maintenance calories. Any further south and you start placing starvation stress on your body and will surely lose muscle mass and thus lower the metabolism.
2) Train with high intensity and perform high-intensity cardio often.
If you do those two things consistently, you'll have to eat clean. A high calorie, clean diet is absolutely the hardest option of them all - yet it is also the most rewarding option. It's also why most people find other options to consider because the discipline isn't there.
I'm not bashing you about anything that you said. I have done Lean Gains myself with a decent amount of success. However, I have to have GHRP-6 with that diet because I find it hard to eat 3000+ calories in an 8hr window. My metabolism and test levels plummit when I fast every day. Appetite goes to the wayside, too.
Anyways, whether you are a junk eater, a paleo, a traditional bodybuilding diet, or a carb-backloader or even a ketoer, one thing is ALWAYS true - you can't escape the laws of nutrient partitioning. Period. A grilled chicken breast has a different metabolic pathway than a Big Mac. In time, those foods will add up to something (either muscle mass or fat gain).
06-06-2013, 11:40 AM
As for the eating of garbage(big macs,mini wheats)I have no desire for anything of that group,yesturday was my b-day and it took all I had to eat 3 spoon fulls of ice cream(from local creamery,grass-fed ect)I programmed myself to not give in to those types of foods(for years)
06-06-2013, 12:55 PM
Given the results I got from working out less and being more relaxed about what I put in my mouth (contrasted to running 2-3x/week, HIIT 2x/week, weights 5-6 days a week, rigid macronutrient ratios with every bit of food weighed, no cheat meals for 2-3 months at a time and still not being able to get under 15%) I respectfully disagree with the part about nutrient partitioning. I didn't eat Big Macs and pancakes every day, but I definitely indulged every week. I actually gained over 5 lbs of muscle...in a month, which in my mind (again YMMV) is more than enough evidence that what I did works. I'm also going to go aheah and say that I'm not unique in this respect as I got the dietary methodology from Mike T. Nelson, he has had similar results with other clients.
06-06-2013, 01:01 PM
-It does not stimulate insulin.
-It does not store up as fat (the chain is small enough to pass through the portal vein once it hits the intenstines)
-It can and will be burned in lieu of carbohydrates being metabolized
-Muscles use the MCT oil first, so essentially it gets a VIP pass to the muscle for energy use
-During breakdown in the liver, much heat is discharged (making it thermogenic)
-The final product of the Kreb's cycle is ketone bodies
-The rest, if any is left over, will get pissed out.
Good stuff. If my stomach could handle it, I'd consume 1000+ calories of this every day and just fill the rest with protein and fat. Unfortunately, a more modest amount of 500-700 calories is all I can take at the moment.
06-06-2013, 01:17 PM
Again, I'm not saying you are wrong either and we'll have to respectfully disagree, but it sounds to me like your issue is that you do not have a high enough metabolism to approach anything below 15% BF.
In that case, you probably need to eat ALOT more calories than you think, because increased consumption and increased frequency will eventually increase the metabolism. This is probably why you've noticed success with more junk food, as they are usually carb and fat dense, and typically are higher calories than "clean" food. Another thought is to keep HIIT cardio in your routine as often as you can without overtraining/draining yourself. After reading your post once more, I am certain this was this case. You didn't have enough food. A man that weights 230lbs @ 6'3" and 40 yrs old (I'm not sure how old you are) would need almost 2200 kcals per day for maintenance if he were to lay in bed all day. As active as you were, we'd have to apply a multiplier of at least 1.5 to that, which would put you at a need of 3270 kcals just to maintain a healthy metabolism. In fact, the Harris Benedict formula claims you'd be closer to a 1.725 multiplier, which would put you at 3700+ kcals. That's a hard amount to reach in clean calories considering that 1 uncooked cup of brown rice is 300 kcals and every 4oz of chicken is 100 kcals...
The worst thing that can happen when cutting is a metabolism that slows down. Not eating enough calories is generally the main culprit of such, from what I have seen in the gym and with helping/training others.
Just the other day I easily put down 1200 calories at McDonald's and wasn't totally satisfied either. However, in my mind, it isn't just about the calories consumed and nutrient partitioning, but also the nutritional value associated with the food. Comparing a 1200 calorie McD's meal to 8oz chicken breast, 1 cup of brown rice, 1 cup of green beans and an apple are vastly different in value to the body. Micronutrients, if not there, will cause the body to degrade and eventually become dysfunctional. This in turn leads to halted gains in muscle mass and less fat burning. I think every one would agree to some degree with that. If not, then I'm wasting my time.
When it comes to clean eating, you must intake ample amount of calories to keep the metabolism moving forward. Again, all of this is my opinion which is based on around 150 hours of metabolic studies.
06-06-2013, 02:34 PM
When my wife and I did BFFM for 11 months I used the Harris Benedict formulas and subtracted 500 to lose weight etc etc... Recently I did a gas exchange RMR test that indicated slightly less than 2300 cals(I might still have the printout somewhere) IIRC, I just remember the 2550 calories a day to lose weight figure... I'm 37, 6'3" and 234.
I cut calories between 1200-3200 total weekly deficit, and ate mostly lean proteins and vegetables... When I get home I'll put up some before and afters of body shots and 7 site skinfold measurements...
I definitely have the metabolism to get under 15%, I'm 12.5% right now...
I'm telling you, you owe it to yourself to explore Metabolic Flexibility with an open mind. Mike T Nelson has a classified study with DARPA, he's a pretty smart dude.
Like I said, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass and cutting 6 lbs of butter in a month's time without fat loss drugs, prohormones or AAS speaks for itself. I definitely didn't eat a ton either... I'll put up a week of my food log if you're interested... :-)
06-06-2013, 04:08 PM
06-07-2013, 12:07 AM
For the "endomorphic" people out there, my recommendation would be go to myfitnesspal .com and track your calories. I think the majority of the time people who think they are eating lots and lots in actuality are barely eating enough. Be aware that without proper nutrient and caloric partitioning you will not be able to gain muscle without fat, and even if you do it correctly you will likely gain a bit of fat anyway unless you are already above 10% body fat.
06-09-2013, 12:40 AM
06-09-2013, 12:52 AM
Only having carbs once a week has greatly improved my joint pain. What I do could be considered paleo most of the week.
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