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    Quote Originally Posted by 67nova View Post
    For the fruits I eat 1-2 serv(25g each)a day,half-1 pre morning workout and go with a baked sweet potatoe post(only time/starch I eat)and snack on some berries or a apple later in day.And anything if you eat to much of gets stored as fat(protein/fat/ect...)

    My total fruit intake a week is not even 100g of cho so im really not worried about it being stored as fat,at 7% I could use some mybe?
    All this would really be more worried about if I was a bodybuilder im just a country guy that's been into fitness for awhile and was the fat kid until 10yrs ago(250lbs)traded my alcohol/drug addiction for fitness.
    Yeah I wasn't eluding to the fact that you'd get fat on it, but rather, that fruit doesn't replenish muscle glycogen very well...if at all. In the case of fructose, a majority portion gets stored as fat regardless the amount consumed. The other portion gets stored as liver glycogen. This is not because of the amount eaten but because of the molecular science regarding the fructose chain. 2 modest servings a day isn't gonna harm anything though, especially when talking about apples. Those are generally the safest option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion

    Yeah I wasn't eluding to the fact that you'd get fat on it, but rather, that fruit doesn't replenish muscle glycogen very well...if at all. In the case of fructose, a majority portion gets stored as fat regardless the amount consumed. The other portion gets stored as liver glycogen. This is not because of the amount eaten but because of the molecular science regarding the fructose chain. 2 modest servings a day isn't gonna harm anything though, especially when talking about apples. Those are generally the safest option.
    Which is why I tend to stay away from fruit for the most part.
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    When I do eat fruit(mostly fresh berries and apples)I drink raw apple cider vinegar and with all the calcium I get don't think a lot is going to liver(calcium helps to direct to muscle)cider keeps blood sugar stable.
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    i eat quite a bit of fruit
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post

    Yeah I wasn't eluding to the fact that you'd get fat on it, but rather, that fruit doesn't replenish muscle glycogen very well...if at all. In the case of fructose, a majority portion gets stored as fat regardless the amount consumed. The other portion gets stored as liver glycogen. This is not because of the amount eaten but because of the molecular science regarding the fructose chain. 2 modest servings a day isn't gonna harm anything though, especially when talking about apples. Those are generally the safest option.
    Is this as much of an issue if my only fruit intake is immediately post workout? Love my banana in my shake...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driven2lift

    Is this as much of an issue if my only fruit intake is immediately post workout? Love my banana in my shake...
    Real ripe bananas' ratio is more favorable(glucose vs fructose). One of the fruits I still eat.
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    Bad part about that for me is nothing works,i get no energy from anything I eat(clean or unclean)fruit,milk,nuts,coconu t oil/meat nothing.
    It seems like this beat body I got is saving every cal and shutting me down.Coffee doesn't even help and I don't drink a lot of it either.
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    It's all about training your body to burn the right fuel at the right time... Paleo, CKD, etc etc can help get you there, but there is no need to strictly adhere to them. Mike T. Nelson's Metabolic Flexibility is where it's at. I cut 2.5% bf and gained over 5 lbs of muscle in a month using one of the programs from Geoff Neupert's "More Kettlebell Muscle" (kb complexes, this particular program was 9 weeks) combined with stuff I learned from Mike T. Nelson ... Variability in diet was a big factor, for a month I ate 5-6 meals a day, next month only dinner (Warrior diet), this month is Leangains. Definitely didn't avoid junk food, definitely cut calories during the week(between 1200-3200 weekly deficit, RMR values determined by gas exchange test), cycled carbs(only had starches after my most intense training sessions), and actually reduced fat intake to under 80 grams 5-6 days a week. Eating "clean" all the time is overrated. Solid programming, keeping a food journal to keep you honest, and actively reducing emotional stress finally got me under 15% bf.. The only cardio I did was one or 2 Spin classes a week.FWIW, YMMV.... I have before and after pictures if anyone is interested. The only muscle building supplements I used were creatine, beta alanine, and milk protein concentrate. I also use GABA, melatonin, 5-HTP, powdered cal-mag, and sometimes ashwagandha to help improve quality of sleep.

    "Paleo" is kinda silly, and not practical in the world we live in. Plus Big Macs are kinda really delicious. So are Frosted Mini Wheats and pancakes. In the end you have to figure out what works for you because nothing is one size fits all, just don't cave to fads...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67nova View Post
    Bad part about that for me is nothing works,i get no energy from anything I eat(clean or unclean)fruit,milk,nuts,coconu t oil/meat nothing.
    It seems like this beat body I got is saving every cal and shutting me down.Coffee doesn't even help and I don't drink a lot of it either.
    MCT oil. Grab a tablespoon or two of that with some BCAA's mixed with either maltodextrin or water and you'll get some energy (at least for a workout).
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterNix View Post
    It's all about training your body to burn the right fuel at the right time... Paleo, CKD, etc etc can help get you there, but there is no need to strictly adhere to them. Mike T. Nelson's Metabolic Flexibility is where it's at. I cut 2.5% bf and gained over 5 lbs of muscle in a month using one of the programs from Geoff Neupert's "More Kettlebell Muscle" (kb complexes, this particular program was 9 weeks) combined with stuff I learned from Mike T. Nelson ... Variability in diet was a big factor, for a month I ate 5-6 meals a day, next month only dinner (Warrior diet), this month is Leangains. Definitely didn't avoid junk food, definitely cut calories during the week(between 1200-3200 weekly deficit, RMR values determined by gas exchange test), cycled carbs(only had starches after my most intense training sessions), and actually reduced fat intake to under 80 grams 5-6 days a week. Eating "clean" all the time is overrated. Solid programming, keeping a food journal to keep you honest, and actively reducing emotional stress finally got me under 15% bf.. The only cardio I did was one or 2 Spin classes a week.FWIW, YMMV.... I have before and after pictures if anyone is interested. The only muscle building supplements I used were creatine, beta alanine, and milk protein concentrate. I also use GABA, melatonin, 5-HTP, powdered cal-mag, and sometimes ashwagandha to help improve quality of sleep.

    "Paleo" is kinda silly, and not practical in the world we live in. Plus Big Macs are kinda really delicious. So are Frosted Mini Wheats and pancakes. In the end you have to figure out what works for you because nothing is one size fits all, just don't cave to fads...
    I'm happy for you but I have to eat clean to get lean. You can eat clean all the time if you follow two very important details along with it:

    1) Eat enough calories. To me, and to biologists/exercise science majors, that number is no more than a 10% deficit from maintenance calories. Any further south and you start placing starvation stress on your body and will surely lose muscle mass and thus lower the metabolism.

    2) Train with high intensity and perform high-intensity cardio often.

    If you do those two things consistently, you'll have to eat clean. A high calorie, clean diet is absolutely the hardest option of them all - yet it is also the most rewarding option. It's also why most people find other options to consider because the discipline isn't there.

    I'm not bashing you about anything that you said. I have done Lean Gains myself with a decent amount of success. However, I have to have GHRP-6 with that diet because I find it hard to eat 3000+ calories in an 8hr window. My metabolism and test levels plummit when I fast every day. Appetite goes to the wayside, too.

    Anyways, whether you are a junk eater, a paleo, a traditional bodybuilding diet, or a carb-backloader or even a ketoer, one thing is ALWAYS true - you can't escape the laws of nutrient partitioning. Period. A grilled chicken breast has a different metabolic pathway than a Big Mac. In time, those foods will add up to something (either muscle mass or fat gain).
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    MCT oil. Grab a tablespoon or two of that with some BCAA's mixed with either maltodextrin or water and you'll get some energy (at least for a workout).
    Mct oil is that like coconut oil?Maltodextrin,dextrose,ect. . has no effect on me.
    As for the eating of garbage(big macs,mini wheats)I have no desire for anything of that group,yesturday was my b-day and it took all I had to eat 3 spoon fulls of ice cream(from local creamery,grass-fed ect)I programmed myself to not give in to those types of foods(for years)
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I'm happy for you but I have to eat clean to get lean. You can eat clean all the time if you follow two very important details along with it:

    1) Eat enough calories. To me, and to biologists/exercise science majors, that number is no more than a 10% deficit from maintenance calories. Any further south and you start placing starvation stress on your body and will surely lose muscle mass and thus lower the metabolism.

    2) Train with high intensity and perform high-intensity cardio often.

    If you dowo things consistently, you'll have to eat clean. A high calorie, clean diet is absolutely the hardest option of them all - yet it is also the most rewarding option. It's also why most people find other options to consider because the discipline isn't there.

    I'm not bashing you about anything that you said. I have done Lean Gains myself with a decent amount of success. However, I have to have GHRP-6 with that diet because I find it hard to eat 3000+ calories in an 8hr window. My metabolism and test levels plummit when I fast every day. Appetite goes to the wayside, too.

    Anyways, whether you are a junk eater, a paleo, a traditional bodybuilding diet, or a carb-backloader or even a ketoer, one thing is ALWAYS true - you can't escape the laws of nutrient partitioning. Period. A grilled chicken breast has a different metabolic pathway than a Big Mac. In time, those foods will add up to something (either muscle mass or fat gain).
    At the end of the day I'm fairly sure that no one in their right mind would argue against eating whole unprocessed organic foods (what people 100 years ago simply called "food") most of the time. Having a nearly pathological aversion to junk food is counterproductive IMHO...

    Given the results I got from working out less and being more relaxed about what I put in my mouth (contrasted to running 2-3x/week, HIIT 2x/week, weights 5-6 days a week, rigid macronutrient ratios with every bit of food weighed, no cheat meals for 2-3 months at a time and still not being able to get under 15%) I respectfully disagree with the part about nutrient partitioning. I didn't eat Big Macs and pancakes every day, but I definitely indulged every week. I actually gained over 5 lbs of muscle...in a month, which in my mind (again YMMV) is more than enough evidence that what I did works. I'm also going to go aheah and say that I'm not unique in this respect as I got the dietary methodology from Mike T. Nelson, he has had similar results with other clients.


    t
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67nova View Post
    Mct oil is that like coconut oil?Maltodextrin,dextrose,ect. . has no effect on me.
    As for the eating of garbage(big macs,mini wheats)I have no desire for anything of that group,yesturday was my b-day and it took all I had to eat 3 spoon fulls of ice cream(from local creamery,grass-fed ect)I programmed myself to not give in to those types of foods(for years)
    Coconut oil is not MCT oil. Coconut oil is a long chain triglyceride that has MCT's in it but it is mostly a long chain saturated fat. Pure MCT might be your solution.

    -It does not stimulate insulin.
    -It does not store up as fat (the chain is small enough to pass through the portal vein once it hits the intenstines)
    -It can and will be burned in lieu of carbohydrates being metabolized
    -Muscles use the MCT oil first, so essentially it gets a VIP pass to the muscle for energy use
    -During breakdown in the liver, much heat is discharged (making it thermogenic)
    -The final product of the Kreb's cycle is ketone bodies
    -The rest, if any is left over, will get pissed out.

    Good stuff. If my stomach could handle it, I'd consume 1000+ calories of this every day and just fill the rest with protein and fat. Unfortunately, a more modest amount of 500-700 calories is all I can take at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterNix View Post
    At the end of the day I'm fairly sure that no one in their right mind would argue against eating whole unprocessed organic foods (what people 100 years ago simply called "food") most of the time. Having a nearly pathological aversion to junk food is counterproductive IMHO...

    Given the results I got from working out less and being more relaxed about what I put in my mouth (contrasted to running 2-3x/week, HIIT 2x/week, weights 5-6 days a week, rigid macronutrient ratios with every bit of food weighed, no cheat meals for 2-3 months at a time and still not being able to get under 15%) I respectfully disagree with the part about nutrient partitioning. I didn't eat Big Macs and pancakes every day, but I definitely indulged every week. I actually gained over 5 lbs of muscle...in a month, which in my mind (again YMMV) is more than enough evidence that what I did works. I'm also going to go aheah and say that I'm not unique in this respect as I got the dietary methodology from Mike T. Nelson, he has had similar results with other clients.


    t
    This is the frustrating fact about metabolism. Every single person has different efficiencies and for different reasons. The number of dimensions involved in someone's success or failure is endless.

    Again, I'm not saying you are wrong either and we'll have to respectfully disagree, but it sounds to me like your issue is that you do not have a high enough metabolism to approach anything below 15% BF.

    In that case, you probably need to eat ALOT more calories than you think, because increased consumption and increased frequency will eventually increase the metabolism. This is probably why you've noticed success with more junk food, as they are usually carb and fat dense, and typically are higher calories than "clean" food. Another thought is to keep HIIT cardio in your routine as often as you can without overtraining/draining yourself. After reading your post once more, I am certain this was this case. You didn't have enough food. A man that weights 230lbs @ 6'3" and 40 yrs old (I'm not sure how old you are) would need almost 2200 kcals per day for maintenance if he were to lay in bed all day. As active as you were, we'd have to apply a multiplier of at least 1.5 to that, which would put you at a need of 3270 kcals just to maintain a healthy metabolism. In fact, the Harris Benedict formula claims you'd be closer to a 1.725 multiplier, which would put you at 3700+ kcals. That's a hard amount to reach in clean calories considering that 1 uncooked cup of brown rice is 300 kcals and every 4oz of chicken is 100 kcals...

    The worst thing that can happen when cutting is a metabolism that slows down. Not eating enough calories is generally the main culprit of such, from what I have seen in the gym and with helping/training others.

    Just the other day I easily put down 1200 calories at McDonald's and wasn't totally satisfied either. However, in my mind, it isn't just about the calories consumed and nutrient partitioning, but also the nutritional value associated with the food. Comparing a 1200 calorie McD's meal to 8oz chicken breast, 1 cup of brown rice, 1 cup of green beans and an apple are vastly different in value to the body. Micronutrients, if not there, will cause the body to degrade and eventually become dysfunctional. This in turn leads to halted gains in muscle mass and less fat burning. I think every one would agree to some degree with that. If not, then I'm wasting my time.

    When it comes to clean eating, you must intake ample amount of calories to keep the metabolism moving forward. Again, all of this is my opinion which is based on around 150 hours of metabolic studies.
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    When my wife and I did BFFM for 11 months I used the Harris Benedict formulas and subtracted 500 to lose weight etc etc... Recently I did a gas exchange RMR test that indicated slightly less than 2300 cals(I might still have the printout somewhere) IIRC, I just remember the 2550 calories a day to lose weight figure... I'm 37, 6'3" and 234.

    I cut calories between 1200-3200 total weekly deficit, and ate mostly lean proteins and vegetables... When I get home I'll put up some before and afters of body shots and 7 site skinfold measurements...

    I definitely have the metabolism to get under 15%, I'm 12.5% right now...

    I'm telling you, you owe it to yourself to explore Metabolic Flexibility with an open mind. Mike T Nelson has a classified study with DARPA, he's a pretty smart dude.

    Like I said, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass and cutting 6 lbs of butter in a month's time without fat loss drugs, prohormones or AAS speaks for itself. I definitely didn't eat a ton either... I'll put up a week of my food log if you're interested... :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinisterNix View Post
    When my wife and I did BFFM for 11 months I used the Harris Benedict formulas and subtracted 500 to lose weight etc etc... Recently I did a gas exchange RMR test that indicated slightly less than 2300 cals(I might still have the printout somewhere) IIRC, I just remember the 2550 calories a day to lose weight figure... I'm 37, 6'3" and 234.

    I cut calories between 1200-3200 total weekly deficit, and ate mostly lean proteins and vegetables... When I get home I'll put up some before and afters of body shots and 7 site skinfold measurements...

    I definitely have the metabolism to get under 15%, I'm 12.5% right now...

    I'm telling you, you owe it to yourself to explore Metabolic Flexibility with an open mind. Mike T Nelson has a classified study with DARPA, he's a pretty smart dude.

    Like I said, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass and cutting 6 lbs of butter in a month's time without fat loss drugs, prohormones or AAS speaks for itself. I definitely didn't eat a ton either... I'll put up a week of my food log if you're interested... :-)
    In fact I'm dang interested. Send me a PM rather to keep everyone else out of the drama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Carbs are too involved in muscle-building processes. Its called insulin. And meat alone does not illicit a strong enough insulin response to shuttle proper amino acids and nutrients to muscle cells. Certain aminos can only be transported via insulin thus carbs are needed at every meal when bulking.
    There are a lot of things i'd love to reply to but it will take time. It's true you need some Carbohydrates to bulk assists signals your body into an anabolic state, although not much is needed; a spike of 25g post workout is all that can be required for an insulin spike, additionally Whey protein actually spikes insulin effectively more than high glycemic carbs. If it were just insulin, that would help more than carbohydrates. The system is far more complex unfortunately and has to do with a myriad of things such as leptin, grehlin, progesterone, testosterone, cortisol, glycogen stores, etc. Additionally each individuals hormone profile will be different, their genetic ability to store fat, where they store fat, number of muscle fibres, etc. The list is huge. All amino acids will eventually be transported, carbohydrates only encourage enzymes to assimilate the shuttling into your body more efficiently, otherwise we would have serious health problems on a no carb diet.

    For the "endomorphic" people out there, my recommendation would be go to myfitnesspal .com and track your calories. I think the majority of the time people who think they are eating lots and lots in actuality are barely eating enough. Be aware that without proper nutrient and caloric partitioning you will not be able to gain muscle without fat, and even if you do it correctly you will likely gain a bit of fat anyway unless you are already above 10% body fat.
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    Do you notice less everyday stiffness with paleo?
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    Only having carbs once a week has greatly improved my joint pain. What I do could be considered paleo most of the week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post

    Coconut oil is not MCT oil. Coconut oil is a long chain triglyceride that has MCT's in it but it is mostly a long chain saturated fat. Pure MCT might be your solution.


    Good stuff. If my stomach could handle it, I'd consume 1000+ calories of this every day and just fill the rest with protein and fat. Unfortunately, a more modest amount of 500-700 calories is all I can take at the moment.
    More than about 1-2 tablespoons for me makes me nauseous. Supposedly you develop a tolerance for it but that hasn't happened to me.
    Btw the best deal I've found is NOW brand
  

  
 

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