Post workout insulin spike

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    Post workout insulin spike


    For the longest time I did what my old Muscle and Fitness mags told me: Get my sugary carbs after workouts to spike my insulin since the likelihood of it being stored as fat is very slim. For the last 4 months I have been trying something different more out of necessity. I ignored the no fats after workout advice and avoided sugary carbs.

    My postworkout meal: 1.5 dry cups oatmeal, a couple of tablespoons of peanut butter, and 1.5 scoops of whey protein with a cup or 1.5 cups of skim milk. I know some people have trouble with carbs and consider oatmeal fast-digesting. I think it rates kinda high on the GI scale. I have also heard that oatmeal, sweet potatoes, and brown rice are among the best slow-digesting carbs you can eat. So I guess whether or not it is slow or fast digesting falls on how it works for you. I can eat oatmeal all day long with no issues so I consider it slow-digesting.

    Anyway, I have felt great since eating this postworkout. I don't feel gross from too much sugar and my gains and build are close to where they were when I was younger and had more time to devote to lifting. Anyone else like to do things differently?

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    Regardless of how something works for you; if all things are considered equal from person to person, each individual food will have invariably the same impact on blood sugar. But this can be manipulated. The G.I scale is largely outdated as it rates foods according to how they impact blood sugar on an individual basis, not eaten when coupled with other foods.

    If you couple glucose with a fat or protein, it no longer rates a 100 on the G.I scale as fats and proteins reduce the G.I load, and thus minimize the effect glucose has on blood sugar. So consuming oats with milk will ultimately reduce the G.I load.

    Another important thing to note is that not all sugar has the same impact on blood sugar. In non-technical terms Glucose (a "simple" sugar) is already in the form that the body can use, and thus requires no digestion time in order to be used however, Fructose (also a "simple" sugar), cannot be used by the body in its current form and must be transported to the liver for conversion. As a result the impact on blood sugar is different.

    Just so ya know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Regardless of how something works for you; if all things are considered equal from person to person, each individual food will have invariably the same impact on blood sugar. But this can be manipulated. The G.I scale is largely outdated as it rates foods according to how they impact blood sugar on an individual basis, not eaten when coupled with other foods.

    If you couple glucose with a fat or protein, it no longer rates a 100 on the G.I scale as fats and proteins reduce the G.I load, and thus minimize the effect glucose has on blood sugar. So consuming oats with milk will ultimately reduce the G.I load.

    Another important thing to note is that not all sugar has the same impact on blood sugar. In non-technical terms Glucose (a "simple" sugar) is already in the form that the body can use, and thus requires no digestion time in order to be used however, Fructose (also a "simple" sugar), cannot be used by the body in its current form and must be transported to the liver for conversion. As a result the impact on blood sugar is different.

    Just so ya know
    Yeah, I did not take too much stock in what the GI means anymore. And I knew that adding fats and proteins to simple sugars slow them down. That's why I kinda figured the insulin load was not too high with that particular meal. Maybe I am wrong and it is still a high insulin meal. All I know is I can eat oatmeal and brown rice all day and feel no ill effects. haha And I knew there was a difference between glucose and fructose and you would want more glucose after a workout if the spike is what you were trying to achieve. That's why a lot of carb products say to wait a half hour after digesting before you take in a protein drink.

    I guess this bares me asking you. Do you feel then that this is still a high insulin meal? If so, that's cool. I was just kinda curious because I thought it was completely the opposite of the way I used to do meals after workouts.
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    I am sure that many will disagree, but nutrient timing isn't as nearly as important to your gains as overall calories and being consistent in meeting your calorie/macro needs every.single.day.
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    I can buy into that to a certain extent. I think if you worked out and then waited like 2 or 3 hours to eat, your meal would not have been used nearly efficiently as if you would have ate shortly after. But if you basically only ate before and after your workout you would screw yourself as well. Whether you go the slow carb route or the fast carb route, from my personal experience just make sure you get a meal in after you train. You definitely need to get your meals in, though. 6-8 is my preference.
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    This is from Alan Aragon that I cut and pasted (these are his words and research):Pre, During, & Postworkout NutritionHierarchy of ImportanceWhen speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.The Primary Laws of Nutrient TimingThe First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.NOTE: Please do not misinterpret the above to mean that timing is irrelevant. On the contrary, it's very relevant. Timing just happens to have MUCH LESS impact on results than hitting your macro totals for the day. This doesn't diminish the fact that people need to individualize their meal timing so that it maximizes their training performance (& does not hinder it). The latter manipulations vary widely, because people have different training protocols, goals, and tolerances. For example, some people experience their best training performance in an immediately fed state, while others do best in a semi-fasted or fasted state. Endurance athletes who neglect carbohydrate timing will not optimize their training capacity. Strength/power athletes with minimal endurance demands have much less of a concern for this. There's no way to 'universalize' a nutrient timing prescription that applies to everyone & all types of athletes. But to reiterate, macro totals for the day overshadow timing in terms of importance, especially for bodybuilding. If macro totals for the day are not hit, the most precisely neurotic timing of meals is all for sh!t. The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer. So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results. To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours. The "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline. The anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. The body has the ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. I have links to the research studies he cites but I can't post links since I have < 150 posts I am happy to provide in a PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epolis13 View Post
    This is from Alan Aragon that I cut and pasted (these are his words and research):Pre, During, & Postworkout NutritionHierarchy of ImportanceWhen speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.The Primary Laws of Nutrient TimingThe First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.NOTE: Please do not misinterpret the above to mean that timing is irrelevant. On the contrary, it's very relevant. Timing just happens to have MUCH LESS impact on results than hitting your macro totals for the day. This doesn't diminish the fact that people need to individualize their meal timing so that it maximizes their training performance (& does not hinder it). The latter manipulations vary widely, because people have different training protocols, goals, and tolerances. For example, some people experience their best training performance in an immediately fed state, while others do best in a semi-fasted or fasted state. Endurance athletes who neglect carbohydrate timing will not optimize their training capacity. Strength/power athletes with minimal endurance demands have much less of a concern for this. There's no way to 'universalize' a nutrient timing prescription that applies to everyone & all types of athletes. But to reiterate, macro totals for the day overshadow timing in terms of importance, especially for bodybuilding. If macro totals for the day are not hit, the most precisely neurotic timing of meals is all for sh!t. The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer. So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results. To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours. The "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline. The anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. The body has the ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. I have links to the research studies he cites but I can't post links since I have < 150 posts I am happy to provide in a PM.
    I would appreciate a PM of links very much. That was a very interesting read and very much goes against what everyone accepts as truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post
    I would appreciate a PM of links very much. That was a very interesting read and very much goes against what everyone accepts as truth.
    On the way!!
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    I fully regard meal timing to be important, especially if you have all other aspects of the diet down. Simple things like stopping AMPK phosphorylation and activating mTOR post exercise is something of interest to me and is of particular interest to those who wish to enhance their daily workout session. Whilst the implications of such a meal may be small; small is better than none.

    AA eludes to meal timings importance in that article as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I fully regard meal timing to be important, especially if you have all other aspects of the diet down. Simple things like stopping AMPK phosphorylation and activating mTOR post exercise is something of interest to me and is of particular interest to those who wish to enhance their daily workout session. Whilst the implications of such a meal may be small; small is better than none.

    AA eludes to meal timings importance in that article as well
    .
    I do agree with this here. I guess my point is that I think people put TOO much emphasis on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epolis13 View Post
    I do agree with this here. I guess my point is that I think people put TOO much emphasis on it.
    I agree with both of you. I have a meal right after I train and another 1 hour or so later. But I think maybe part of her point is that some people think that just because they are on it pre and post, that the rest of the day really doesn't matter and tend to undereat. Or maybe I am wrong?
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    My takeaway from Alan's research and from reading stuff by people like Layne Norton, etc is this: our "window" is much longer than once believed. So, if you don't eat w/in 60 mins of working out, it won't detract from your gains. Personally, just because of the way I eat throughout the day, I typically DO eat w/in about 1-2hrs of working out. There are days, though, where that doesn't happen, and I don't stress about it. If I'm not hungry, I won't eat. At the end of the day, though, as long as I've gotten in the calories that are required to gain mass (ie a caloric surplus) and have hit my protein needs, I will still make gains. Any benefit, no matter how minute it may be, is, at the end of the day, a benefit. So, if you are hungry and it's time to eat and you're within a few hrs of working out, you can benefit; you won't benefit THAT much more than someone who doesn't do the same thing. That's what I get from all of this
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    Just to add to nutrient timing info, as stated I too believe that total macros for TEE are to be hit as a first priority, however (though I don't necessarily go by it) Juggernaut Training Solutions did a test on one of their female BJJ athletes called "Explosive Nutrition" where they talked about nutrient timing to boost optimal results.
    The study timing nutrient introduction around a training schedule to help with a weight cut, and in turn boosted performance while achieving the desired drop in weight. Just added food for thought.
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    I spent a week getting into ketosis, then started high glycemic carbs pwo. Had the biggest insulin spikes ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken bottle View Post
    I spent a week getting into ketosis, then started high glycemic carbs pwo. Had the biggest insulin spikes ever.
    That's b/c you were in ketosis. You would've had insulin spikes regardless of the type of carbs you ate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken bottle View Post
    I spent a week getting into ketosis, then started high glycemic carbs pwo. Had the biggest insulin spikes ever.
    how do you know you had an insulin spike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post
    For the longest time I did what my old Muscle and Fitness mags told me: Get my sugary carbs after workouts to spike my insulin since the likelihood of it being stored as fat is very slim. For the last 4 months I have been trying something different more out of necessity. I ignored the no fats after workout advice and avoided sugary carbs.

    My postworkout meal: 1.5 dry cups oatmeal, a couple of tablespoons of peanut butter, and 1.5 scoops of whey protein with a cup or 1.5 cups of skim milk. I know some people have trouble with carbs and consider oatmeal fast-digesting. I think it rates kinda high on the GI scale. I have also heard that oatmeal, sweet potatoes, and brown rice are among the best slow-digesting carbs you can eat. So I guess whether or not it is slow or fast digesting falls on how it works for you. I can eat oatmeal all day long with no issues so I consider it slow-digesting.

    Anyway, I have felt great since eating this postworkout. I don't feel gross from too much sugar and my gains and build are close to where they were when I was younger and had more time to devote to lifting. Anyone else like to do things differently?
    I only have a protein shake after workout no carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I only have a protein shake after workout no carbs.
    Obviously you are a bigger guy than me, how did that work out? I always try and pound a bunch of cals after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryane87 View Post
    Obviously you are a bigger guy than me, how did that work out? I always try and pound a bunch of cals after.
    works out well for me. I see little benefit to spiking my insulin after workouts. I always felt I was geting fat doing that. Now I put on muscle without fat. I have my carbs earlier in the day maybe an apple before workout but no carbs after. If I workout in the morning then I eat some carbs for lunch or afternoon. But it has little to do with my workout.
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    Insulin spikes post workout will not shuttle fatty acids into storage; it is the last thing the body is thinking about post exercise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Insulin spikes post workout will not shuttle fatty acids into storage; it is the last thing the body is thinking about post exercise.
    There needs to be a caveat on this: intensity, volume, and duration.

    Personally, I'm lucky to get a meal in within an hour of training because I'm usually nauseous at the end of a training session and this hasn't stopped me from getting stronger. I'll occasionally down a protein shake afterwards, but the only substrate I ingest is 10g BCAA during training and then a large meal once my stomach settles. I don't worry about micromanaging the small things and focus more on meeting overall caloric needs and training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I don't worry about micromanaging the small things and focus more on meeting overall caloric needs and training.
    This has taken me a VERY long time to learn and sometimes I still try and micromanage. Ultimately this differences rarely will manifest themselves into actual physical differences (re strength and/or bofy comp) and will instead just place an undue stress on me.

    Whats your pre-WO nutrition looking like @Rodja? Still IF?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    There needs to be a caveat on this: intensity, volume, and duration.

    Personally, I'm lucky to get a meal in within an hour of training because I'm usually nauseous at the end of a training session and this hasn't stopped me from getting stronger. I'll occasionally down a protein shake afterwards, but the only substrate I ingest is 10g BCAA during training and then a large meal once my stomach settles. I don't worry about micromanaging the small things and focus more on meeting overall caloric needs and training.
    Spot on
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    Plus, FWIW, the leucine in your post workout shake will spike insulin without carbs
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    I just have to pound a lot of food. I have heard of Leucine spiking insulin. I just wondered if what I was consuming was considered insulin-spiking because I feel a lot better doing that than having just simple carbs and a protein shake. My damn metabolism is flying so I have to eat a lot of calories just to maintain what I have, nevermind gains. haha
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    idk what to tell you all, when I drink simple sugars and protein post workout in time I put on fat and weighs me down.
    I eat very little pre and post workout anyway and I still have plenty of energy to go finish my workout.
    From trial and error I discovered that im a fat burner. My body prefers to burn fat for energy and I only use carbs strategically when need it.
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    Take away notes:

    MPS is elevated for 24-48 hours so no, it's really not that important for most.

    Glycemic index has no real relevance with the possible exception of diabetics, and then in the context of a varied diet likely makes little to no difference.

    Also you have to take into account whether or not someone has eaten anything during the day, digestion and absorption takes time and most are in a post prandial state while working out so substrates are being absorbed throughout the day. If you are training fasted then maybe, but again everyone will be eating within a few hours and that is sufficient for intermediate lifters.

    You should check out AA's sticky above that addresses post workout meals. What's most important is total daily intake, and unless training fasted, ingesting protein/carbs post workout makes little difference with the only potential exception being the highly elite BBd'er. Training and diet needn't be so restrictive.

    FYI, gluconeogenesis is the synthesis of glucose from any carbon substrate other than carbohydrate substrates. In order for insulin to be secreted biphasically, as it does with carbohydrates, glucose must be detected in the blood. In a meal containing only protein, like we are describing, glucose from this meal won't get into the blood until gluconeogenesis occurs to synthesize glucose from the amino acids that are broken down from the protein source. The rate at which gluconeogenesis converts amino acids to glucose is comparatively a very small amount to the rate at which glycolysis breaks down carbohydrates into glucose, ultimately only causing a very small insulin response from any protein source. Now, there are amino acids that cause an insulin response before they can be converted into glucose... Although the insulin response from amino acids is monophasic, so the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response as it does with glucose, which is comparitively the larger release. So no, the insulin response from a protein source is not similar at all to the insulin response to "high GI" carbohydrates. Completely different in fact.


    Alan Aragon:

    Hierarchy of Importance

    When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.

    The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing
    The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
    The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

    NOTE: Please do not misinterpret the above to mean that timing is irrelevant. On the contrary, it's very relevant. Timing just happens to have MUCH LESS impact on results than hitting your macro totals for the day. This doesn't diminish the fact that people need to individualize their meal timing so that it maximizes their training performance (& does not hinder it). The latter manipulations vary widely, because people have different training protocols, goals, and tolerances. For example, some people experience their best training performance in an immediately fed state, while others do best in a semi-fasted or fasted state. Endurance athletes who neglect carbohydrate timing will not optimize their training capacity. Strength/power athletes with minimal endurance demands have much less of a concern for this. There's no way to 'universalize' a nutrient timing prescription that applies to everyone & all types of athletes. But to reiterate, macro totals for the day overshadow timing in terms of importance, especially for bodybuilding. If macro totals for the day are not hit, the most precisely neurotic timing of meals is all for sh!t.

    http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5
    http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-5.pdf

    "The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

    More from earlier in the thread:

    Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

    You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction."
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    This has taken me a VERY long time to learn and sometimes I still try and micromanage. Ultimately this differences rarely will manifest themselves into actual physical differences (re strength and/or bofy comp) and will instead just place an undue stress on me.

    Whats your pre-WO nutrition looking like @Rodja? Still IF?
    I tried to bring back IF, but couldn't fit it into the schedule with my geared sessions taking so damn long. I'm back to basics of eating 4-6 times a day (depending on the day and hunger) and just making sure to get in around 5000kcals/day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    I tried to bring back IF, but couldn't fit it into the schedule with my geared sessions taking so damn long. I'm back to basics of eating 4-6 times a day (depending on the day and hunger) and just making sure to get in around 5000kcals/day.
    Your TP bill must run in the hundreds...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    There needs to be a caveat on this: intensity, volume, and duration.

    Personally, I'm lucky to get a meal in within an hour of training because I'm usually nauseous at the end of a training session and this hasn't stopped me from getting stronger. I'll occasionally down a protein shake afterwards, but the only substrate I ingest is 10g BCAA during training and then a large meal once my stomach settles. I don't worry about micromanaging the small things and focus more on meeting overall caloric needs and training.
    Perhaps; also the type of exercise differenciates the need for certain nutrients post workout. CHO ingestion post will likely attenuate protein degradation rather than be used to directly refuel glycogen stores/ be stored as fat if the workout is stressful enough to have such an effect.

    But of course, caveats do apply here.
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    I think body type plays a role as well. Before I moved to Texas, in a matter of 2 years I put on almost 40lbs with simple carbs and protein. Some of it is finding what is good for you. I get really hungry post workout, almost grumpy hungry, so I have a meal. I simply wanted to know if my post workout meal was still spiking my insulin since it was oatmeal and 2 tablespoons of peanut butter and a scoop and a half of protein. Obviously less than post-workout sugars, but I was just curious because I felt a little better with that meal. I think most people who have posted on here have had good results with where they are at RIGHT NOW. For example, Vassille had good results with only protein post workout. Rodja eats when he gets hungry after a workout. I eat a lot of my calories at breakfast and post workout. I have to eat after I workout. The hunger makes me an angry sort afterword. I think the main thing to take away from all this talk is that all the meal timing in the world doesn't mean anything if you are not hitting your caloric needs. Which sounds kind of obvious in the end. haha
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    Part of the anger comes from going hypoglycemic. Since you are essentially carb-dependent, this will happen. Oatmeal will most definitely spike insulin, and the odds are your breakfast will, also. (Unless it's devoid of carbs).
    It depends on what your goals are. If it's fat loss, there are better ways
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Take away notes:

    MPS is elevated for 24-48 hours so no, it's really not that important for most.

    Glycemic index has no real relevance with the possible exception of diabetics, and then in the context of a varied diet likely makes little to no difference.

    Though there's a certain class of individuals who will try to burn you in the fire fighter stake for saying this, I completely agree with you in this statement and actually I think it's the first post I truly like from you Scooby dude!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Though there's a certain class of individuals who will try to burn you in the fire fighter stake for saying this, I completely agree with you in this statement and actually I think it's the first post I truly like from you Scooby dude!
    oh so all my other posts are now pure BS huh ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    oh so all my other posts are now pure BS huh ?
    No no no no, just the first post I see you make a serious, actually mature post besides all the "sweet talking" or innuendo statements with a bit of keyboard-warrior competitions of "I am the bigger kid, I can go there and prove it wherever you are!"

    So just saying, nice post, we agree. I liked it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    No no no no, just the first post I see you make a serious, actually mature post besides all the "sweet talking" or innuendo statements with a bit of keyboard-warrior competitions of "I am the bigger kid, I can go there and prove it wherever you are!"

    So just saying, nice post, we agree. I liked it

    Sweet Talking , innuendo statements, keyboard warrior?
    .. ill remember that next time i post....

    Thanks for the kind words ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Thanks for the kind words

    There ding ding ding! You're welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Part of the anger comes from going hypoglycemic. Since you are essentially carb-dependent, this will happen. Oatmeal will most definitely spike insulin, and the odds are your breakfast will, also. (Unless it's devoid of carbs).
    It depends on what your goals are. If it's fat loss, there are better ways
    Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, I haven't had to try and lose fat. I know when I have tried carb cycling a couple of times, I noticed a difference. But even at 33 and not doing cardio, I am 191 and still 10.5-11.5% bf. When I lift, I have always been able to take in 350-450 grams of carbs a day with no fat gain. That being said, that is why I believe you are correct when you so I am carb-dependent. I think my body untilizes it a little more efficiently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    No no no no, just the first post I see you make a serious, actually mature post besides all the "sweet talking" or innuendo statements with a bit of keyboard-warrior competitions of "I am the bigger kid, I can go there and prove it wherever you are!"

    So just saying, nice post, we agree. I liked it
    Oh the irony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    There ding ding ding! You're welcome.
    Typical Sns Reps....
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