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Highly experimental extreme diet & training plan (long & detailed

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    Highly experimental extreme diet & training plan (long & detailed


    G'day all!



    I'm in an interesting/weird situation and looking for some answers. So far haven't been able to find anyone who could make anything out of my situation unfortunately. I believe it involves some serious understanding of the body and our systems on a medical level.



    First some background information:



    I'm a cauccasian male, 28years old and 176cm high. I relocated to Australia on April 2012 and with the stress and hardships of adjusting to a new life etc I gained lots of weight and never exercised for a very long time. On September 10th 2012 I decided to go back to a healthy lifestyle. At the time I had hit 83kg and initially started training 3 evenings/week with a personal trainer. By December 23rd I'd dropped down to 67kg with a combination of exercise and a healthy diet. My diet included balanced eating for some time, going extreme on starvation once in a while and occasionally some strict protein only periods. In this time I had extreme fluctuations as well, such as gaining 6kg in 7days and 7kg in 9days (all of which I immediately lost in the same amount of time with extreme starvation & protein only diets) (Comparison photos attached). From January 1st 2013 I've completely lost control due to some personal reasons and kept eating uncontrollably till January 28th and went back up to 78kg. Though during this period, I continued my workout sessions with my personal trainer.



    Betwen January 28th and February 3rd, I went onto a protein only diet (only 6scoops of whey protein each day without any solid food other drinks) to initially shock my body and overcome the first resistance period against fat loss. I gave myself a final limitless eating break on February 3rd. Since February 4th I've been on a powder protein(4 main varities), glutamine, bcaa and eaa tabs diet. I've supplemented it with lots of additional things as to provide as much as possible for my body while limiting myself to a very high protein(255gr on max days) and extremely low carb(38gr on max days) & fat(21gr on max days) and almost zero sugar(12gr on max days) intake. I've also switched to an extremely heavy training plan with this diet, adding a variety of other activities to my 3 PT sessions/week. Now I have 11 separate training sessions over 6 days and full rest on 1 day only. (All details in the attached file)




    Now my problem is I'm not losing as much weight & fat as I anticipated based on earlier experiences on simpler versions of this kind of a diet. For ex only 10scoops of whey protein and 10gr of glutamine per day without any solid food or other drinks earlier I was able to lose 0.7-1.0kg from one morning to the next on a steady basis for a week. My workout plan was also a lot easier & lighter compared to what I'm doing right now (Only PT sessions 3days/week and moderate HIIT cardio sessions on the mornings of my PT sessions) (Though of the total loss around 60% was from fat and around 40% was from muscles)




    I've tracked my weight(also in the attached file) under the exact same conditions since February 4th both in the mornings(first thing as I wake up) and nights(last thing as I to to sleep) and based on the results I've some problematic questions.




    - First of all the weight increase during the days is extreme on some days. There's no meaningful trend on this based on my eating & training plan unfortunately so can't get anything out of this. I would expect water retention and added weight from the liquids I'm consuming but a 0.7kg-1.0kg increase from morning till night doesn't sound normal in my opinion (considering my eating plan)?


    - I'm thinking that (from past experience) my body is supposed to be losing lots of fat due to the energy deficit I'm creating with such a low intake (1000-1400kcal depending on the day) and high and heavy physical activity. Though nothing seems to be changing? I also considered the possibility of losing fat and building muscle at the same time (I'm aware that scientifically it's said that anabolic and catabolic systems working simultaneously at such rates is impossible) as it's impossible currently for my weight and body composition to stay the same while following such an eating & training plan? Also I'm able to continuously -on every training day- increase the weights on all my exercises (only with an exception to wrist curls) which wouldn't have been possible if my muscles were not experiencing any changes on a daily basis.


    - I'm also thinking that my body could actually have gone into a full protection mode which I tried to prevent with the previous week's simpler & stricter protein only diet. I've heard/read that this protective phase could last up to 3 weeks (never had it happen for this long) but nothing certain on this topic. Any ideas on this?




    I would really appreciate if someone could finally shed some light to my situation. I've been seriously frustrated at the results I've been getting for the past week. If I could pinpoint the problem I could solve it somehow and as you would have guessed by now I'm a guy who pushes his limits beyond normally expected so I'm fine with going to the extreme ends. I'll look forward to all feedback!!




    ps. Please do not comment telling me how stupid/unhealthy/dangerous this diet is as I'm aware of the risks and am doing everything I can at the same time prevent anything from going wrong with additional supplements.(even getting complete blood counts & various tests to check if there are any early warning signs) I'm also perfectly energetic throughout the day, even though I'm putting in an 8.5-9.5/10 effort in all my exercises I'm still good to take even more at the end of my sessions, having a perfect mood, lately been sleeping an average of only 3.5hours a day and still physically & mentally feeling better than I've ever had in my life! I've always been a strong believer of a quote from T.S. Elliot: "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." and recently I've learned that I'm able to expand/push my limits 3 times more than I already was doing in the near past.
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    Have you been lifting along with your diet?

    I would also suggest against such drastic diets, and protein only isn't necessarily healthy for you; you would need some fat in that diet as well. Look into CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet), I believe it would fit what you are looking for fairly easily with the addition of some fat.
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    Yes I've my training includes but not limited to:
    - Barbell exercises: deadlift, front squat, bent over barbell row, barbell up row etc.
    - Gym equipment/machinery exercises: bench press, incline bench press, shoulder press, overhand standard cable row, hamstring curl, single arm tricep extension, single arm bicep curl, single arm lateral pull down, single arm cable push, cable fly etc.
    - Dumbbell and weight plate exercises: single arm dumbbell press, dumbbell renegade row, tricep dumbbell skull crusher, dumbbell swing, single arm dumbbell shoulder press, weight plate glute bridge, weight plate step up, standing side crunch with weight plate etc.
    - Body weight exercises: hanging knee raise, latitude pushup, double leg raise & lower, full situp, gladiators, mountain climbers, straight & side plank, , twisted v snap etc.

    I'm already having 5gr of unrefined coconut oil daily and ultra clean epa/dha tablets for that purpose. Also getting some from the protein powders as well.

    I don't want to increase my caloric intake as even at 1100-1400kcal and an average of 2.5hours of training per day I'm not really losing weight at all. I'll definitely look into the CKD though.

    I'm already aware that this is a risky & most probably dangerous diet but supporting myself with different supplements and getting blood tests etc done to make sure nothing goes too wrong unexpectedly.

    Thanks for the warning & suggestions!
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    This diet is terrible. In fact this whole plan is terrible. You do realise (perhaps not) that the body requires calories for physiological functions? I.e. kidney function, liver, heart, brain etc. these require fuel to function. This intake ALONE will exceed what you are feeding. To make matters worse you are exercising for long periods of time, perhaps even burning off more than half (if not more) of your daily calorie intake. Do you know what happens in cases such as this? Your body desperately tries to restore energy balance by breaking down muscle to use as fuel (so essentially you are working out for nothing); this has 2 effects: one, muscle protein can be broken down to be used as fuel to try restore what you aren't feeding it and two; less muscle= reduced metabolism (energy sparing) = less weight loss (hence why your struggling).

    What boggles my mind further is that you are using blood tests as a marker for physiological distress.. why? Get kidney function tests done, things that may actually shutdown as the body desperately seeks to shut down energy consuming physiological functions.

    To make matters worse you are only sleeping 3.5hrs a night. I don't even know you but I am seriously concerned for your health.

    I'm not going to entertain your diet or provide any other insight that may further this madness; seek professional guidance.
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    I'm very well aware of all the concerns you've mentioned and I've spent a very long time reading studies/researches before deciding to give this a try and as you can see it's experimental. From your reactions I believe you're assuming that our bodies are extremely limited in terms of adaptation whereas I insist that most of us never even come close to what our bodies are capable of.


    Just a few notes,
    - My weight loss has started again and I'm getting thinner around the waist and abdomen (yes visually noticeable)
    - I'm not losing muscle in any way as I keep systematically increasing the weights I work with and the intensity of my cardio sessions without any problems. Also have had noticeable increase in size & definition on the upper body (told by others) over the last 7 days.
    - Blood tests are not the only things I'll be getting done of course! That was just to express I'll be monitoring my systems medically to be sure there are no warning signs or anything going wrong.
    - So far haven't felt any downsides of this diet and heavy exercise. To be very honest I've never felt so alive and strong in my life before. I'm simply exploding with energy and in a very good mood with extreme levels of motivation!
    - This is something I would never do more than 4 weeks.
    - Sleeping so few hours is something I'm trying to fix.


    Excuse me for being extremely blunt but all you can say is "DON'T DO THIS", I know that it's an extremely unorthodox system and scares the sh** out of people but you are not able to tell me WHY not to do this. Nobody comes up with a proper scientific/medical explanation and everyone blindly says "this can't be done/it's wrong". You can't possibly know if something is right or wrong unless you know the reasons behind it so please accept my apologies but in my opinion everyone who opposes this method(without any explanation) is simply afraid of it! Has any research been done on anything like this, are there any studies, has anyone tried it and shared it with others, none that I could find so far! How can you all just reject an idea that has not been tried without even thinking, and please don't tell me common sense, come up with scientific/medical facts! Your comments are based on the regular knowledge of the body whereas my current situation and the results I'm having, my mood etc are completely contradicting with what you've got to say. According to you I should be quite messed up by now..


    Though I definitely appreciate your concerns for my health and would like to thank you for expressing this.


    Cheers!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    This diet is terrible. In fact this whole plan is terrible. You do realise (perhaps not) that the body requires calories for physiological functions? I.e. kidney function, liver, heart, brain etc. these require fuel to function. This intake ALONE will exceed what you are feeding. To make matters worse you are exercising for long periods of time, perhaps even burning off more than half (if not more) of your daily calorie intake. Do you know what happens in cases such as this? Your body desperately tries to restore energy balance by breaking down muscle to use as fuel (so essentially you are working out for nothing); this has 2 effects: one, muscle protein can be broken down to be used as fuel to try restore what you aren't feeding it and two; less muscle= reduced metabolism (energy sparing) = less weight loss (hence why your struggling).

    What boggles my mind further is that you are using blood tests as a marker for physiological distress.. why? Get kidney function tests done, things that may actually shutdown as the body desperately seeks to shut down energy consuming physiological functions.

    To make matters worse you are only sleeping 3.5hrs a night. I don't even know you but I am seriously concerned for your health.

    I'm not going to entertain your diet or provide any other insight that may further this madness; seek professional guidance.
    This. And just because you increase weights in the gym doesn't mean you're retaining muscle, by the looks of your arms and legs I'd say you don't have much muscle mass at all.

    And you said it yourself eating 1100-1400 kcal and not losing weight even with 2.5 hours of training ... Eating too little is just as bad if not worse than over eating . You aren't losing weight because you stopped your metabolism and your bmr has to be near to nothing
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    Quote Originally Posted by qetadgzcb View Post
    I'm very well aware of all the concerns you've mentioned and I've spent a very long time reading studies/researches before deciding to give this a try and as you can see it's experimental. From your reactions I believe you're assuming that our bodies are extremely limited in terms of adaptation whereas I insist that most of us never even come close to what our bodies are capable of.


    Just a few notes,
    - My weight loss has started again and I'm getting thinner around the waist and abdomen (yes visually noticeable)
    - I'm not losing muscle in any way as I keep systematically increasing the weights I work with and the intensity of my cardio sessions without any problems. Also have had noticeable increase in size & definition on the upper body (told by others) over the last 7 days.
    - Blood tests are not the only things I'll be getting done of course! That was just to express I'll be monitoring my systems medically to be sure there are no warning signs or anything going wrong.
    - So far haven't felt any downsides of this diet and heavy exercise. To be very honest I've never felt so alive and strong in my life before. I'm simply exploding with energy and in a very good mood with extreme levels of motivation!
    - This is something I would never do more than 4 weeks.
    - Sleeping so few hours is something I'm trying to fix.


    Excuse me for being extremely blunt but all you can say is "DON'T DO THIS", I know that it's an extremely unorthodox system and scares the sh** out of people but you are not able to tell me WHY not to do this. Nobody comes up with a proper scientific/medical explanation and everyone blindly says "this can't be done/it's wrong". You can't possibly know if something is right or wrong unless you know the reasons behind it so please accept my apologies but in my opinion everyone who opposes this method(without any explanation) is simply afraid of it! Has any research been done on anything like this, are there any studies, has anyone tried it and shared it with others, none that I could find so far! How can you all just reject an idea that has not been tried without even thinking, and please don't tell me common sense, come up with scientific/medical facts! Your comments are based on the regular knowledge of the body whereas my current situation and the results I'm having, my mood etc are completely contradicting with what you've got to say. According to you I should be quite messed up by now..


    Though I definitely appreciate your concerns for my health and would like to thank you for expressing this.


    Cheers!
    Actually, i've provided you with just A LITTLE of the reasons not to. What worries me is that you think you have it under control, with blood tests and whatnot but these are not appropriate measures to determine body deteriation or shutdown. While there may be markers in the blood that something will go wrong (i.e. increase in certain hormones, decrease in hormones, low RBC etc.) they will not tell the whole story.

    Increasing weight does not equate to a corresponding increase in muscle mass. All this means is that your body is become more adept in a movement. Initially, the body fires its motor neurons out of sync with one another (causing a somewhat weak lift) but over the coming weeks the bodies ability to sync the motor neurons which will equate to a stronger lift. This does not equal more muscle. The pictures do not show any muscle definition.

    What do you propose will happen once you come off this diet? Once you increase calories again? The body will attempt to hold onto it. Causing a rapid rise in weight gain. This is easily googlable. People do starvation diets all the time (see: celebreties) and come out "fine", but theres a difference between being skinny and overall well-being and healthy. To add to your list of medical testing, I strongly suggest a bone density scan.

    I won't even go into your fat and CHO consumption.

    If this helps, if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, reports from top-level coaches and personal accounts from athletes suggest that on the early stages of disordered eating (yes, I am placing you in that category for this purpose) actually experience, albeit short-lived, an improvement in performance (i'll link this too you feeling good)

    Starvation are physiological stressors and as such produce an up regulation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (fight or flight response) and an increase in Cortisol (this hormone will eat your muscle in times of starvation, hence why I again disagree that you will notice much on increase, if any in muscle mass). Alongside this, epinephrine and norepinephrine are released. These two hormones can mask problems and even envoke feelings of euphoria (which you have stated) .

    One more thing; The initial decrease in body-weight may induce a transiet increase in relative maximal oxygen uptake per kilogram of bodyweight (Vo2MAX).

    In any case, this forum is perhaps not the place you should be to seek help that may potentially harm you. I can help you, but in a much more sane and logical way. Until you decide to change this ridiculous plan, I will only continue to outlay and relay the dangers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Actually, i've provided you with just A LITTLE of the reasons not to. What worries me is that you think you have it under control, with blood tests and whatnot but these are not appropriate measures to determine body deteriation or shutdown. While there may be markers in the blood that something will go wrong (i.e. increase in certain hormones, decrease in hormones, low RBC etc.) they will not tell the whole story.

    Increasing weight does not equate to a corresponding increase in muscle mass. All this means is that your body is become more adept in a movement. Initially, the body fires its motor neurons out of sync with one another (causing a somewhat weak lift) but over the coming weeks the bodies ability to sync the motor neurons which will equate to a stronger lift. This does not equal more muscle. The pictures do not show any muscle definition.

    What do you propose will happen once you come off this diet? Once you increase calories again? The body will attempt to hold onto it. Causing a rapid rise in weight gain. This is easily googlable. People do starvation diets all the time (see: celebreties) and come out "fine", but theres a difference between being skinny and overall well-being and healthy. To add to your list of medical testing, I strongly suggest a bone density scan.

    I won't even go into your fat and CHO consumption.

    If this helps, if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, reports from top-level coaches and personal accounts from athletes suggest that on the early stages of disordered eating (yes, I am placing you in that category for this purpose) actually experience, albeit short-lived, an improvement in performance (i'll link this too you feeling good)

    Starvation are physiological stressors and as such produce an up regulation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (fight or flight response) and an increase in Cortisol (this hormone will eat your muscle in times of starvation, hence why I again disagree that you will notice much on increase, if any in muscle mass). Alongside this, epinephrine and norepinephrine are released. These two hormones can mask problems and even envoke feelings of euphoria (which you have stated) .

    One more thing; The initial decrease in body-weight may induce a transiet increase in relative maximal oxygen uptake per kilogram of bodyweight (Vo2MAX).

    In any case, this forum is perhaps not the place you should be to seek help that may potentially harm you. I can help you, but in a much more sane and logical way. Until you decide to change this ridiculous plan, I will only continue to outlay and relay the dangers.
    This is possibly too much scientific reasoning for him to comprehend.

    OP keep it up bro! By the way, you haven't developed a "new experimental way" to lose weight. The term is starvation. I suggested you supplement with lots of nicotine and stimulants. You will look like a Victoria's Secret model in no time!! (or die, but thats why its called an experiment I guess)
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    OP... Take an honest look

    http://m.wikihow.com/Tell-if-Someone-Is-Anorexic

    Your not inventing anything new, your starving yourself. Go eat a cheeseburger and go feel good. Lose weight the proven safe way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Actually, i've provided you with just A LITTLE of the reasons not to. What worries me is that you think you have it under control, with blood tests and whatnot but these are not appropriate measures to determine body deteriation or shutdown. While there may be markers in the blood that something will go wrong (i.e. increase in certain hormones, decrease in hormones, low RBC etc.) they will not tell the whole story.

    Increasing weight does not equate to a corresponding increase in muscle mass. All this means is that your body is become more adept in a movement. Initially, the body fires its motor neurons out of sync with one another (causing a somewhat weak lift) but over the coming weeks the bodies ability to sync the motor neurons which will equate to a stronger lift. This does not equal more muscle. The pictures do not show any muscle definition.

    What do you propose will happen once you come off this diet? Once you increase calories again? The body will attempt to hold onto it. Causing a rapid rise in weight gain. This is easily googlable. People do starvation diets all the time (see: celebreties) and come out "fine", but theres a difference between being skinny and overall well-being and healthy. To add to your list of medical testing, I strongly suggest a bone density scan.

    I won't even go into your fat and CHO consumption.

    If this helps, if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, reports from top-level coaches and personal accounts from athletes suggest that on the early stages of disordered eating (yes, I am placing you in that category for this purpose) actually experience, albeit short-lived, an improvement in performance (i'll link this too you feeling good)

    Starvation are physiological stressors and as such produce an up regulation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (fight or flight response) and an increase in Cortisol (this hormone will eat your muscle in times of starvation, hence why I again disagree that you will notice much on increase, if any in muscle mass). Alongside this, epinephrine and norepinephrine are released. These two hormones can mask problems and even envoke feelings of euphoria (which you have stated) .

    One more thing; The initial decrease in body-weight may induce a transiet increase in relative maximal oxygen uptake per kilogram of bodyweight (Vo2MAX).

    In any case, this forum is perhaps not the place you should be to seek help that may potentially harm you. I can help you, but in a much more sane and logical way. Until you decide to change this ridiculous plan, I will only continue to outlay and relay the dangers.
    This is the kind of a response I've been looking for till now, so finally, thank you. There are parts that I wasn't aware of & didn't actually even cross my mind and this is the main reason why I started a thread in the first place, to find out/learn things that I simply could have missed and things not in my knowledge. from others' experience.

    After I get off this diet I'm going to gradually decrease powders and start adding & increase normal foods in a balance proper way. Of course my body is going to try and hold onto to anything then and I'm already expecting at least a 2week re-adaptation phase.

    About the photos, I guess everyone is missing to look at the dates they were taken and read the full story as the last photo was at the end of December and I already explained that I've gone up to 78kg after that again. Anyhow, I'm already not planning to stick to this for more than 3 weeks as it's only EXPERIMENTAL and I'm fully aware that it's in no way sustainable.

    The only part I can't reason with is that you're putting this in the same category as eating disorders which I can't understand?

    I've had a DEXA scan done on February 8th and bone mineral density is fine.

    "I will only continue to outlay and relay the dangers." --> I would only thank you for this as yet again I repeat myself, I'm trying to LEARN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drock1234 View Post
    This is possibly too much scientific reasoning for him to comprehend.

    OP keep it up bro! By the way, you haven't developed a "new experimental way" to lose weight. The term is starvation. I suggested you supplement with lots of nicotine and stimulants. You will look like a Victoria's Secret model in no time!! (or die, but thats why its called an experiment I guess)
    I guess I can't complain about your ridiculous response since this is an open platform and anyone is free to express their opinions. But just a note, not knowing anything about another person, you simply don't have the right to make ridiculous assumptions and in your tiny little ways think that you can mock them. I would have preferred you to keep your amusingly low level of intellect & intelligence to yourself rather than humiliating yourself in this way unless you actually had anything relevant & useful to say!
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    Quote Originally Posted by qetadgzcb View Post
    Yes I've my training includes but not limited to:
    - Barbell exercises: deadlift, front squat, bent over barbell row, barbell up row etc.…
    - Gym equipment/machinery exercises: bench press, incline bench press, shoulder press, overhand standard cable row, hamstring curl, single arm tricep extension, single arm bicep curl, single arm lateral pull down, single arm cable push, cable fly etc.…
    - Dumbbell and weight plate exercises: single arm dumbbell press, dumbbell renegade row, tricep dumbbell skull crusher, dumbbell swing, single arm dumbbell shoulder press, weight plate glute bridge, weight plate step up, standing side crunch with weight plate etc.…
    - Body weight exercises: hanging knee raise, latitude pushup, double leg raise & lower, full situp, gladiators, mountain climbers, straight & side plank, , twisted v snap etc.…

    I'm already having 5gr of unrefined coconut oil daily and ultra clean epa/dha tablets for that purpose. Also getting some from the protein powders as well.

    I don't want to increase my caloric intake as even at 1100-1400kcal and an average of 2.5hours of training per day I'm not really losing weight at all. I'll definitely look into the CKD though.

    I'm already aware that this is a risky & most probably dangerous diet but supporting myself with different supplements and getting blood tests etc done to make sure nothing goes too wrong unexpectedly.

    Thanks for the warning & suggestions!
    Your metabolism is shut down because you are starving yourself. I'd also like to mention that this is a perfect example of a "yo-yo" dieter. Once you stop all this dieting and training, you'll put all that weight back on plus 10.

    Again, this is what happens when more informed people go around saying "you gotta cut calories". Sure, you can cut alittle. But what usually happens is the inexperienced individual makes a false connection between cutting calories and losing weight (and not all fat, btw).

    Eat several hundred more calories per day and you'll start losing weight again. Stop starving yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpHouse View Post
    OP... Take an honest look

    http: // m . wikihow . com / Tell-if-Someone-Is-Anorexic

    Your not inventing anything new, your starving yourself. Go eat a cheeseburger and go feel good. Lose weight the proven safe way.
    Never thought I could actually be anorexic!! Though taking a look at the link I did tick 3 things, hmm.. Might want to look deeper into this I guess, apparently I was quite wrong with my understanding of being anorexic..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Actually, i've provided you with just A LITTLE of the reasons not to. What worries me is that you think you have it under control, with blood tests and whatnot but these are not appropriate measures to determine body deteriation or shutdown. While there may be markers in the blood that something will go wrong (i.e. increase in certain hormones, decrease in hormones, low RBC etc.) they will not tell the whole story.

    Increasing weight does not equate to a corresponding increase in muscle mass. All this means is that your body is become more adept in a movement. Initially, the body fires its motor neurons out of sync with one another (causing a somewhat weak lift) but over the coming weeks the bodies ability to sync the motor neurons which will equate to a stronger lift. This does not equal more muscle. The pictures do not show any muscle definition.

    What do you propose will happen once you come off this diet? Once you increase calories again? The body will attempt to hold onto it. Causing a rapid rise in weight gain. This is easily googlable. People do starvation diets all the time (see: celebreties) and come out "fine", but theres a difference between being skinny and overall well-being and healthy. To add to your list of medical testing, I strongly suggest a bone density scan.

    I won't even go into your fat and CHO consumption.

    If this helps, if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, reports from top-level coaches and personal accounts from athletes suggest that on the early stages of disordered eating (yes, I am placing you in that category for this purpose) actually experience, albeit short-lived, an improvement in performance (i'll link this too you feeling good)

    Starvation are physiological stressors and as such produce an up regulation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (fight or flight response) and an increase in Cortisol (this hormone will eat your muscle in times of starvation, hence why I again disagree that you will notice much on increase, if any in muscle mass). Alongside this, epinephrine and norepinephrine are released. These two hormones can mask problems and even envoke feelings of euphoria (which you have stated) .

    One more thing; The initial decrease in body-weight may induce a transiet increase in relative maximal oxygen uptake per kilogram of bodyweight (Vo2MAX).

    In any case, this forum is perhaps not the place you should be to seek help that may potentially harm you. I can help you, but in a much more sane and logical way. Until you decide to change this ridiculous plan, I will only continue to outlay and relay the dangers.
    I'm with Jigzz on this one 100%, especially the part about muscle adeptation.

    Again, I won't go into detail about health consequences as this type of thing varies from person to person. However, the reason you stopped seeing results is because your metabolism is turned off. I'm willing to be that DEXA scan shows an increasing percentage of fat and a decreasing percentage of muscle, if you took it again.

    Either way, congrats on it this far, even though you got lucky in your approach.
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    I've worked in clinics that deal with eating disorders. You are not a scientist testing new dieting tactics. You are a guy trying to starve fat away and trying to grasp for information about how healthy it is, we are not going to validate you here. In your first post, you showed literally every sign in speech we look for. Eat healthy, go on a diet that has been proven to work in a healthy way. Hire a nutritionist if you can afford to. But don't trick yourself OP. This isn't new, and up until now, it's been lucky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Your metabolism is shut down because you are starving yourself. I'd also like to mention that this is a perfect example of a "yo-yo" dieter. Once you stop all this dieting and training, you'll put all that weight back on plus 10.

    Again, this is what happens when more informed people go around saying "you gotta cut calories". Sure, you can cut alittle. But what usually happens is the inexperienced individual makes a false connection between cutting calories and losing weight (and not all fat, btw).

    Eat several hundred more calories per day and you'll start losing weight again. Stop starving yourself.
    I've been warned earlier by my PT about yo-yo dieting as unfortunately made that mistake earlier. It's just I got so fed up & frustrated after putting on so much weight "again" I wanted to push hard and get a really fast start that would kick me back in track and I could then move forward in a proper & healthy way.

    What happens after I'm done with this, I go through a 2 week re-adaptation phase gradually reducing powders while adding & increasing real food. Then I'll be back to cooking/preparing my own healthy meals. I actually had 2 meal plans prepared by a nutritionist high in protein and low in carbs & fats but in a reasonable way which I followed for about 2 months. Good thing I'm quite alright in the kitchen and don't complain preparing all my meals fresh daily.

    One more thing that I can't understand is how low can my metabolism go?? Is my body simply able to lower my bmr to ridiculous levels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpHouse View Post
    I've worked in clinics that deal with eating disorders. You are not a scientist testing new dieting tactics. You are a guy trying to starve fat away and trying to grasp for information about how healthy it is, we are not going to validate you here. In your first post, you showed literally every sign in speech we look for. Eat healthy, go on a diet that has been proven to work in a healthy way. Hire a nutritionist if you can afford to. But don't trick yourself OP. This isn't new, and up until now, it's been lucky.
    "trying to grasp for information about how healthy it is," --> Don't recall anything from my words that could have led you to understand this? I never said this is healthy, normal, sustainable, good etc, I've always been aware of the risks & dangers and have said this myself. I've simply been trying to LEARN more, I can't understand why everyone has to be so judgmental right away!

    Having said that, I respect your views.. I'll already be going back to a proper/healthy diet as this was an experimental short term diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qetadgzcb View Post
    "trying to grasp for information about how healthy it is," --> Don't recall anything from my words that could have led you to understand this? I never said this is healthy, normal, sustainable, good etc, I've always been aware of the risks & dangers and have said this myself. I've simply been trying to LEARN more, I can't understand why everyone has to be so judgmental right away!

    Having said that, I respect your views.. I'll already be going back to a proper/healthy diet as this was an experimental short term diet.
    Because you are potentially putting yourself at an unnessesary risk. Weight loss is a marathon, not a sprint and takes huge dedication and a somewhat understanding of the role that food still plays in the diet. This 'experiment' tells me that you place sole responsiblility of your weight gain on food. When it is not food per say, it is your eating habits that got yo to where you were (unless there was underlying physiological problems).

    I simply cannot even for a minute entertain this idea, hence my being judgemental if you wish to call it that.

    What you do idealy want is to increase calories and try bump your metabolism back up (all your doing is lowering it further into the floor which will slow weight loss) then attack the problem again in a much more reasonable manner.

    One last thing, don't place to much over-reliance on protein. You seem to have a unjustified fear of carbs and fats. Are you aware that eating too much of any macronutrient has the potential to be stored as fat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Because you are potentially putting yourself at an unnessesary risk. Weight loss is a marathon, not a sprint and takes huge dedication and a somewhat understanding of the role that food still plays in the diet. This 'experiment' tells me that you place sole responsiblility of your weight gain on food. When it is not food per say, it is your eating habits that got yo to where you were (unless there was underlying physiological problems).

    I simply cannot even for a minute entertain this idea, hence my being judgemental if you wish to call it that.

    What you do idealy want is to increase calories and try bump your metabolism back up (all your doing is lowering it further into the floor which will slow weight loss) then attack the problem again in a much more reasonable manner.

    One last thing, don't place to much over-reliance on protein. You seem to have a unjustified fear of carbs and fats. Are you aware that eating too much of any macronutrient has the potential to be stored as fat?
    I'm aware that what I'm trying to achieve can't be done overnight and it's about a complete lifestyle change (in terms of eating and exercising habits) which will need to be sustainable and moderate, at the end of the day the long term goal is to be healthy, nothing more. As I expressed earlier, this is just to kick myself back into track before turning to a long-term, balanced and healthy diet.

    Points taken and that's already what I'm planning to move on given the circumstances anyway.

    I know anything can be stored unless you're not using them but considering how much I spend and take in I didn't really think it'd be possible for my body to actually have any excess protein. Yes I do agree that I do have a fear -a very big one- of carbs and fats. The reason behind this is, as you've seen from the photos, my abdominal areas are where I store majority of my fat, being 176cm and even at 67kg(back then) I end up with a terribly disgusting belly full of jiggly & loose fat. I've a small frame/build from what my doctors have told me but have been fat almost my entire life and even at my best times I've had that belly there so it's kind of frustrating as you can imagine. Besides, having larger fat stores in those areas do increase heart related risks and so on so stressed about that for the future hence trying to get rid of it completely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qetadgzcb View Post
    I'm aware that what I'm trying to achieve can't be done overnight and it's about a complete lifestyle change (in terms of eating and exercising habits) which will need to be sustainable and moderate, at the end of the day the long term goal is to be healthy, nothing more. As I expressed earlier, this is just to kick myself back into track before turning to a long-term, balanced and healthy diet.

    Points taken and that's already what I'm planning to move on given the circumstances anyway.

    I know anything can be stored unless you're not using them but considering how much I spend and take in I didn't really think it'd be possible for my body to actually have any excess protein. Yes I do agree that I do have a fear -a very big one- of carbs and fats. The reason behind this is, as you've seen from the photos, my abdominal areas are where I store majority of my fat, being 176cm and even at 67kg(back then) I end up with a terribly disgusting belly full of jiggly & loose fat. I've a small frame/build from what my doctors have told me but have been fat almost my entire life and even at my best times I've had that belly there so it's kind of frustrating as you can imagine. Besides, having larger fat stores in those areas do increase heart related risks and so on so stressed about that for the future hence trying to get rid of it completely.
    Fats play a vital role in the body; testosterone synthesis is one of these roles as well as the transportation of steriodal hormones. I know the name Fat makes it easy to correlate fat intake with adipose tissue but under proper control this will not occur. Fat accumulation can largely (excluding physiological reasons) be associated with excess calorie above maintainence levels and that needed for tissue resynthesis (ie. muscular hypertrophy). If you havent already, google TDEE calculator and use myfitnesspal.com to construct a healthy diet. The number the TDEE calculator shows you is the amount of energy required to sustain your current mass (estimate only), try find one that needs lean body mass measurement (use DEXA or calipers for this) as this will give a far more accurate (yet still an estimate) caloric need.
    TBH i'd recommened you follow that for a few weeks to get your body back into a proper energy balance then launch into a 250-500kcal weekly deficit. My primary issue here is your overall health so weight loss is actually off the radar for me but if your going to do it, at least do yourself a favor and cut out the drastic workout periods (which will rely largely on glycogen which you aren't getting enough off) and increase carbs and fats slowly (your body may have adapted already and may store these quickly as fat).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Fats play a vital role in the body; testosterone synthesis is one of these roles as well as the transportation of steriodal hormones. I know the name Fat makes it easy to correlate fat intake with adipose tissue but under proper control this will not occur. Fat accumulation can largely (excluding physiological reasons) be associated with excess calorie above maintainence levels and that needed for tissue resynthesis (ie. muscular hypertrophy). If you havent already, google TDEE calculator and use myfitnesspal.com to construct a healthy diet. The number the TDEE calculator shows you is the amount of energy required to sustain your current mass (estimate only), try find one that needs lean body mass measurement (use DEXA or calipers for this) as this will give a far more accurate (yet still an estimate) caloric need.
    TBH i'd recommened you follow that for a few weeks to get your body back into a proper energy balance then launch into a 250-500kcal weekly deficit. My primary issue here is your overall health so weight loss is actually off the radar for me but if your going to do it, at least do yourself a favor and cut out the drastic workout periods (which will rely largely on glycogen which you aren't getting enough off) and increase carbs and fats slowly (your body may have adapted already and may store these quickly as fat).
    It's weird you would think more fat would equal more testosterone but doing a diet like keto I find myself having less drive and just straight depressed. Bleh different strokes for different folks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qetadgzcb View Post
    G'day all!



    I'm in an interesting/weird situation and looking for some answers. So far haven't been able to find anyone who could make anything out of my situation unfortunately. I believe it involves some serious understanding of the body and our systems on a medical level.

    First some background information:



    I'm a cauccasian male, 28years old and 176cm high. I relocated to Australia on April 2012 and with the stress and hardships of adjusting to a new life etc I gained lots of weight and never exercised for a very long time. On September 10th 2012 I decided to go back to a healthy lifestyle. At the time I had hit 83kg and initially started training 3 evenings/week with a personal trainer. By December 23rd I'd dropped down to 67kg with a combination of exercise and a healthy diet. My diet included balanced eating for some time, going extreme on starvation once in a while and occasionally some strict protein only periods. In this time I had extreme fluctuations as well, such as gaining 6kg in 7days and 7kg in 9days (all of which I immediately lost in the same amount of time with extreme starvation & protein only diets) (Comparison photos attached). From January 1st 2013 I've completely lost control due to some personal reasons and kept eating uncontrollably till January 28th and went back up to 78kg. Though during this period, I continued my workout sessions with my personal trainer.



    Betwen January 28th and February 3rd, I went onto a protein only diet (only 6scoops of whey protein each day without any solid food other drinks) to initially shock my body and overcome the first resistance period against fat loss. I gave myself a final limitless eating break on February 3rd. Since February 4th I've been on a powder protein(4 main varities), glutamine, bcaa and eaa tabs diet. I've supplemented it with lots of additional things as to provide as much as possible for my body while limiting myself to a very high protein(255gr on max days) and extremely low carb(38gr on max days) & fat(21gr on max days) and almost zero sugar(12gr on max days) intake. I've also switched to an extremely heavy training plan with this diet, adding a variety of other activities to my 3 PT sessions/week. Now I have 11 separate training sessions over 6 days and full rest on 1 day only. (All details in the attached file)



    Now my problem is I'm not losing as much weight & fat as I anticipated based on earlier experiences on simpler versions of this kind of a diet. For ex only 10scoops of whey protein and 10gr of glutamine per day without any solid food or other drinks earlier I was able to lose 0.7-1.0kg from one morning to the next on a steady basis for a week. My workout plan was also a lot easier & lighter compared to what I'm doing right now (Only PT sessions 3days/week and moderate HIIT cardio sessions on the mornings of my PT sessions) (Though of the total loss around 60% was from fat and around 40% was from muscles)



    I've tracked my weight(also in the attached file) under the exact same conditions since February 4th both in the mornings(first thing as I wake up) and nights(last thing as I to to sleep) and based on the results I've some problematic questions.



    - First of all the weight increase during the days is extreme on some days. There's no meaningful trend on this based on my eating & training plan unfortunately so can't get anything out of this. I would expect water retention and added weight from the liquids I'm consuming but a 0.7kg-1.0kg increase from morning till night doesn't sound normal in my opinion (considering my eating plan)?


    - I'm thinking that (from past experience) my body is supposed to be losing lots of fat due to the energy deficit I'm creating with such a low intake (1000-1400kcal depending on the day) and high and heavy physical activity. Though nothing seems to be changing? I also considered the possibility of losing fat and building muscle at the same time (I'm aware that scientifically it's said that anabolic and catabolic systems working simultaneously at such rates is impossible) as it's impossible currently for my weight and body composition to stay the same while following such an eating & training plan? Also I'm able to continuously -on every training day- increase the weights on all my exercises (only with an exception to wrist curls) which wouldn't have been possible if my muscles were not experiencing any changes on a daily basis.


    - I'm also thinking that my body could actually have gone into a full protection mode which I tried to prevent with the previous week's simpler & stricter protein only diet. I've heard/read that this protective phase could last up to 3 weeks (never had it happen for this long) but nothing certain on this topic. Any ideas on this?



    I would really appreciate if someone could finally shed some light to my situation. I've been seriously frustrated at the results I've been getting for the past week. If I could pinpoint the problem I could solve it somehow and as you would have guessed by now I'm a guy who pushes his limits beyond normally expected so I'm fine with going to the extreme ends. I'll look forward to all feedback!!



    ps. Please do not comment telling me how stupid/unhealthy/dangerous this diet is as I'm aware of the risks and am doing everything I can at the same time prevent anything from going wrong with additional supplements.(even getting complete blood counts & various tests to check if there are any early warning signs) I'm also perfectly energetic throughout the day, even though I'm putting in an 8.5-9.5/10 effort in all my exercises I'm still good to take even more at the end of my sessions, having a perfect mood, lately been sleeping an average of only 3.5hours a day and still physically & mentally feeling better than I've ever had in my life! I've always been a strong believer of a quote from T.S. Elliot: "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." and recently I've learned that I'm able to expand/push my limits 3 times more than I already was doing in the near past.
    OP
    I need to echo the other replies in this thread urging you to adopt a more reasonable and healthy diet.
    Your diet plan is not "experimental", it is disordered.
    By asking for advice on how to make it work, while demanding that we not criticize your 'plan', you are just asking for the good members of AM to justify your eating as something other than highly disordered. As someone who has overcome an eating disorder, I unfortunately recognize disordered thinking like yours a mile away.
    I encourage you to seek the help of a trained counselor to help you work through your issues.
    Until you master your mind, you will never reach your physical goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    It's weird you would think more fat would equal more testosterone but doing a diet like keto I find myself having less drive and just straight depressed. Bleh different strokes for different folks.
    I wonder how "proven" that theory is myself. I personally feel like the relationship between fats and testosterone are not fully understood. I looked at those studies that everyone swears by now and it just doesnt add up. I know cholesterol has a great deal to do with test levels and I know fat can have loads of cholesterol, so maybe that is the connection...

    But I also know testosterone plays a lesser role in fat burning and muscle building activities than GH, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    It's weird you would think more fat would equal more testosterone but doing a diet like keto I find myself having less drive and just straight depressed. Bleh different strokes for different folks.
    I never said more fat= more testosterone, I said fats play a role in testosterone synthesis and hormonal delivery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I wonder how "proven" that theory is myself. I personally feel like the relationship between fats and testosterone are not fully understood. I looked at those studies that everyone swears by now and it just doesnt add up. I know cholesterol has a great deal to do with test levels and I know fat can have loads of cholesterol, so maybe that is the connection...

    But I also know testosterone plays a lesser role in fat burning and muscle building activities than GH, too.
    It's not a "theory"; fats do play a role in testosterone production. And I never said more fat = more testosterone; I did state however that fats play a huge role in the function of the body (both in test synthesis, hormonal delivery, cell structure and storage of fat soluble vitamins); again more fat above ideal values won't produce more test or enhance storage capabilities.

    But his values are far too low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    It's not a "theory"; fats do play a role in testosterone production. And I never said more fat = more testosterone; I did state however that fats play a huge role in the function of the body (both in test synthesis, hormonal delivery, cell structure and storage of fat soluble vitamins); again more fat above ideal values won't produce more test or enhance storage capabilities.

    But his values are far too low.
    In a biomolecular level, just how exactly do they play a role & why? Or is there just an observational assumption that when I increase fats, I also can note an increase in test levels.

    Then also, here is my chief question I'd love for someone to answer: Just how much fat is needed to meet those "healthy" levels of testosterone? Is it 10%? 20%? 50%? Or maybe its a percentage of saturated fats, or maybe a certain % of GLA's? I feel like without quantifying the study its useless to know.
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    Google scholar "Starvation adaptation human".

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...%2C18&as_vis=1
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    In a biomolecular level, just how exactly do they play a role & why? Or is there just an observational assumption that when I increase fats, I also can note an increase in test levels.

    Then also, here is my chief question I'd love for someone to answer: Just how much fat is needed to meet those "healthy" levels of testosterone? Is it 10%? 20%? 50%? Or maybe its a percentage of saturated fats, or maybe a certain % of GLA's? I feel like without quantifying the study its useless to know.
    Its hard to quantify given that testosterone is tightly regulated by a plethora of factors; not just fats. But they have made correlations between fats and testosterone:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...terone_booster
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/64/6/850.short

    Decrease in HDL associated with decrease in testosterone:
    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/146/8/609.short

    but semantics aside, he is not a bodybuilder and his health is of optimal focus atm, not performance or lowering bf levels (although I could dispute this too). He clearly is misinformed about the role of macronutrients within the body and is fearful (admitted) of carbs and fats and you fueling the fear is doing nothing to help.
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    I honestly used to be that way . Used to be really fat and once I got down to 145 pounds I wanted to stay that way. Ate 1700 kCals, low fat, low carb and high protein. Then one night I filled the toilet bowl with blood. Ran to the ED freaking the **** out. The doctor said I had an internal hemmroid that had been irritated. I told him about my diet and he said up the carbs and fiber and low and behold I didn't get fat, no more blood and now I understand the importance of macro molecules. It takes an experience to change ones mindset sometimes
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    I honestly used to be that way . Used to be really fat and once I got down to 145 pounds I wanted to stay that way. Ate 1700 kCals, low fat, low carb and high protein. Then one night I filled the toilet bowl with blood. Ran to the ED freaking the **** out. The doctor said I had an internal hemmroid that had been irritated. I told him about my diet and he said up the carbs and fiber and low and behold I didn't get fat, no more blood and now I understand the importance of macro molecules. It takes an experience to change ones mindset sometimes
    Wow, crazy. Sometimes you learn the hard way, but if it hadn't of happened, it could have been worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Wow, crazy. Sometimes you learn the hard way, but if it hadn't of happened, it could have been worse.
    Seriously . It allowed me to educate myself about diet and track what I eat. So it wasn't a bad thing
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    Diet actually isn't that horrible. Its similar to a PSMF but with more protein. Its bordering Chris Shugarts velocity diet.

    Your problem seems to be that your not incorporating refeeds into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Its hard to quantify given that testosterone is tightly regulated by a plethora of factors; not just fats. But they have made correlations between fats and testosterone:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...terone_booster
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/64/6/850.short

    Decrease in HDL associated with decrease in testosterone:
    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/146/8/609.short

    but semantics aside, he is not a bodybuilder and his health is of optimal focus atm, not performance or lowering bf levels (although I could dispute this too). He clearly is misinformed about the role of macronutrients within the body and is fearful (admitted) of carbs and fats and you fueling the fear is doing nothing to help.
    Man I stopped bein useful to this board a long time ago, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Diet actually isn't that horrible. Its similar to a PSMF but with more protein. Its bordering Chris Shugarts velocity diet.

    Your problem seems to be that your not incorporating refeeds into it.

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2

    Its a starvation diet; and contains no whole foods. Considering he may only be leaving around <500kcals for physiological functions (almost boderline zero i'd say). And the extreme weight fluctuations (as much as 9kg in 7 days IIRC) and deriving calories solely from Whey protein (no whole foods) and 11 training sessions in 6 days. Theres no way this food intake can sustain the tremendous volume and recovery.

    No solid foods etc.

    The diet is terrible, imo at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Man I stopped bein useful to this board a long time ago, lol
    Not true, I just like to stick up for my fats (albeit I only aim for .5g per lb)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Its a starvation diet; and contains no whole foods. Considering he may only be leaving around <500kcals for physiological functions (almost boderline zero i'd say). And the extreme weight fluctuations (as much as 9kg in 7 days IIRC) and deriving calories solely from Whey protein (no whole foods) and 11 training sessions in 6 days. Theres no way this food intake can sustain the tremendous volume and recovery.

    No solid foods etc.

    The diet is terrible, imo at least.
    His CNS must be shut down. Over training plus no fuel for the nervous system, how does he function
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Its a starvation diet; and contains no whole foods. Considering he may only be leaving around <500kcals for physiological functions (almost boderline zero i'd say). And the extreme weight fluctuations (as much as 9kg in 7 days IIRC) and deriving calories solely from Whey protein (no whole foods) and 11 training sessions in 6 days. Theres no way this food intake can sustain the tremendous volume and recovery.

    No solid foods etc.

    The diet is terrible, imo at least.
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/41....full.pdf+html

    Kleen even has a log on here with this style of dieting Kleen Crashes Head first into fat loss using Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook.

    Now the volume does seem a bit much but my point was the diet in general really isnt all that horrible of a diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/41....full.pdf+html

    Kleen even has a log on here with this style of dieting Kleen Crashes Head first into fat loss using Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook.

    Now the volume does seem a bit much but my point was the diet in general really isnt all that horrible of a diet.
    Haven't done Rapid FatLoss before, but I can vouch for low calorie type diets. Obviously not something one would want to do forever, but UD 2.0 (also by Lyle) had me eating about 1500 calories and nil carbs for 3 days straight. UD 2.0 is the single best diet I have ever done and nothing else comes close. While I haven't done RFL, Lyle freaking knows his ****. The main problem would be not following what he says and trying to get cute thinking you can improve something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Haven't done Rapid FatLoss before, but I can vouch for low calorie type diets. Obviously not something one would want to do forever, but UD 2.0 (also by Lyle) had me eating about 1500 calories and nil carbs for 3 days straight. UD 2.0 is the single best diet I have ever done and nothing else comes close. While I haven't done RFL, Lyle freaking knows his ****. The main problem would be not following what he says and trying to get cute thinking you can improve something.
    UD 2.0 is the only diet by Lyle that I have yet to personally try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    UD 2.0 is the only diet by Lyle that I have yet to personally try.
    Lol, actually it's the only one of his I HAVE tried despite being fairly familiar with most of his stuff. What's your favorite?

    To all: FWIW I am not commenting on OP's diet or the discussion. Was skimming the thread and commenting on Lyle's stuff.
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