Vegan vs vegetarian vs "normal" diet

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    Vegan vs vegetarian vs "normal" diet


    Discuss. I'm all about high protein and cycling carbs and fat but I came into a recent discussion with a colleague of mine and we started bantering about the different diets for people

    I want this thread to be nothing other than scientific articles posting positive and negative effects of said diets along with your own commentary based on the study you have read

    Who wants to be first?
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    From a friend I know


    " I hear you. Until I see a chicken enema, or oxtail cleanse, or steak therapy lol I can't even go there. The basis of a healthy diet should first come from fruits and veges, then grains, lower on the table meats and fats in moderation. Any program where disease has afflicted the body all natural therapies lean toward vegetation as a cure. Yes grains and other excesses in other nutrients can cause problems for those who are ignorant to healthy balance. Nature says a lot about how to eat for instance, have you seen a weaned cow still drinking milk? No, so why do humans? Even veterinary medicine states do not feed milk to weaned animals because it causes iron loss and anemia through losses in the stool. Our systems aren't made for meat, it they were designed for that then we would be able to digest it the same way a lion does, tiger does, hyena does, without altering it through cooking. These animals have the strongest acids to digest even bone!! We can't digest bone, let along the meat we put in our system effectively. This leads to all the degenerative diseases we have today from osteoporosis, to diverticulitis, to cancer, and much more! This is why I push my clients to a healthier lifestyle of a plant based diet and if anything very little meat. Ill show you some research I have on my laptop today as well. "

    That was in response to a comment matrix said


    "

    Due to the changing in genetic expressions, it is being found that our immune system is drastically changing. Vegetarians 30 years ago are not the same of today. Their diets are basically putting the body into a pro-inflammatory state, causing irritation to the intestinal wall, blocking nutrients from absorption due to increases of phytates, and other natural chelating minerals. Vegan diets are grain based which high high gluten, lechithen, soy content which has been shown to be associated with other autoimmune disorders. Diets high in carbs as indicated from his past history would put a person at higher risk of diabetes which is known to have lower T levels from possible depletion of zinc, magnesium, ect.

    Unfortunately, the consequences of poor lifestyles and choice are what majority of health issues orginate from."
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    You could counter his argument with saying people's digestive tracks evolved with the food we able to obtain. Over time it become easier for us to get food n eat more often. Like think of the cave men they had big means every so often to hold them over. Ur body gonna make do with what it gets if ur in survival mode. Like image a cave man eating a fast food meal who knows howd that go. I go low carb but I find my self eventually needed a lil more carbs. I feel tired sluggish n grumpy as hell then I Kno it time for a carb up day. But even then I don't go excessive.
    Like everyone has said there is no one diet for all. It comes down to genics, body types, goals n preference. Ya dig. I just thought I'd hope in cuz nutrition / the way different diets treats different people interests me.
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    I've tried Paleo and other diets but so far the one that is working best for me is vegan. I do think people need to experiment a little and find what is best for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by virago88
    I've tried Paleo and other diets but so far the one that is working best for me is vegan. I do think people need to experiment a little and find what is best for them.
    By working best what do you mean
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    By working best what do you mean
    Yeah I should have been specific. I train six times a week (sports and weights) sometimes two training sessions a day. When I was doing paleo- I felt starved, body fat was going up (ableit slowly) and very low energy. Then I researched Paleo for athletes, which allowed for some grains. This was even worse, I was putting on weight at a fast rate and was constantly tired and craving 'junk'. As a vegan I am training with more energy, I am trainingnharder and longer, and for the first time in a long time I feel that food is no biggy (meaning it's not constantly on my mind). So I guess for me it's a physical, as well as a psychological improvement.
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    Hard to see that Paleobwould do that as vegan diets also incorporate grains

    As far as energy it's constistant glucose so I can see how that is
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    [QUOTE="EBF Inc"]Hard to see that Paleobwould do that as vegan diets also incorporate grains


    I totally agree - but having protein and grains together were just a problem for me.
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    I think vegan vegetarian would just make it even harder to get fats...

    I think it depends on the individual and what there genetic make up, blood lipid looks like..

    vegan will be terrible for some folk, whereas lots of meat might not be favourable for another person.. also keep in mind different goals..

    This is the problem with paleo preachers pushing it as the best way to eat, yet the lack of readily available carbs probably isnt great for an athlete who trains a lot.
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    I'm more interested in studies to prove disprove or debate
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    There is absolutely nothing that even remotely suggest a vegan or vegetarian diet offers any intrinsic health benefits over an omnivores diet.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh
    There is absolutely nothing that even remotely suggest a vegan or vegetarian diet offers any intrinsic health benefits over an omnivores diet.
    I feel there has to be something. C'mon josh. I know you got something to disprove it
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I feel there has to be something. C'mon josh. I know you got something to disprove it
    I have had these debates several time before.

    Burden of proof does not fall on the omnivore
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    I just need resources to provide info. I always want to Learn

    If I was vegan or vegetarian unless I had unlimited supply of beano my ass would kill someone
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    From a friend I know


    " I hear you. Until I see a chicken enema, or oxtail cleanse, or steak therapy lol I can't even go there. The basis of a healthy diet should first come from fruits and veges, then grains, lower on the table meats and fats in moderation.
    what are these suggestions based off of? I suppose you can cite research against excessive fructose intake since he lead with fruit should be the bulk of the diet. Vegetables should be the bulk agreed there but he absolutely has no argument why grains should come before meat and dietary fat.


    Any program where disease has afflicted the body all natural therapies lean toward vegetation as a cure.
    LOL, such as? There is a TedX speech given by a lady who had MS and she cured her degerenative disease by making the bulk of her diet meats (specifically organ meats) and fruits and veggies. Her testimony will certainly fly in the face of his statement but again ask him for an example

    Yes grains and other excesses in other nutrients can cause problems for those who are ignorant to healthy balance. Nature says a lot about how to eat
    for instance,
    Yes it does! Nature says we are omnivores. The evolution of our ability to use our brains come from our ancestors switch to meat diets. Our teeth says we eat meat. Our guts say we eat meat.

    have you seen a weaned cow still drinking milk? No, so why do humans? Even veterinary medicine states do not feed milk to weaned animals because it causes iron loss and anemia through losses in the stool.
    Meh this is debateable. Milk is sort of a grey area as some individuals have adapted to it quite well where others have not.

    Our systems aren't made for meat, it they were designed for that then we would be able to digest it the same way a lion does, tiger does, hyena does, without altering it through cooking. These animals have the strongest acids to digest even bone!! We can't digest bone, let along the meat we put in our system effectively. This leads to all the degenerative diseases we have today from osteoporosis, to diverticulitis, to cancer, and much more! This is why I push my clients to a healthier lifestyle of a plant based diet and if anything very little meat. Ill show you some research I have on my laptop today as well. "
    LOl, how are you friends with this guy? Humans can't digest bones therefore we shouldn't eat meat? Yea that's real sound logic.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I just need resources to provide info. I always want to Learn

    If I was vegan or vegetarian unless I had unlimited supply of beano my ass would kill someone
    gimme a min I will give you some ammo.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Your the man dude!
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    I found a few studies that are relevant. I have avoided sites or studies that are bias or have an agenda (a study funded by the meat industry promoting health benefits of high protein diets are just as dubious as a vegan-pro study funded by PETA). And apologies for not being able to provide the links as I don't have enough posts. But I've given enough of the sources info for you to easily google it.


    The first study I found came from the US National Libary of Medicine. The Oxford Vegeterian Study was completed in the UK with subjects recruited between 1980-1984. Although this is a fairly dated study it is still worth looking at as it takes various lifestyle and dietary factors into consideration. They found that the health of vegeterans was better than meat eaters, but that vegans were at risk of iodine deficiency.

    The next study, a more recent one came from Harvard.
    Harvard's School of Public Health published research which observed 37,698 for 22 yrs and 83,644 women for up to 28 yrs. These subjects were free from cardiovascular disease and cancer at a base line. Their diets were assessed every four years. They discovered that "one daily serving of processed red meat (1 hot dog or 2 slices of bacon) was associated with a 20% increased [mortality] risk". Meanwhile, one daily serving (size of a deck of cards) of unprocessed red meat has a 13% increased risk. They also found benefits with replacing one serving of red meat with a healthier protein choice, like fish, poultry, nuts & legumes).


    And finally, in June 2012 a study published in the Medical Journal of Australia, claimed health benefits of a Vegeterian diet over a meeting eating one. This study again noted that vegan were at a risk of developing a b12 deficiency, but the key was being a well prepared. A well prepared plant based diet can meet the nutritional needs for both children and adults.

    In both the Harvard and Australian studies cancer, diabetes, obesity and rates where higher among the meat eating subjects.

    Hope this adds another thinking point to a very interesting topic.
    Last edited by virago88; 11-29-2012 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Typo
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    Cite the studies.

    PMID numbers or at least the title of the study
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh
    Cite the studies.

    PMID numbers or at least the title of the study
    Sure.

    'The Oxford Vegeterian Study': PMID 10479226 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    The Harvard one is called 'Red Meat Consumption and Mortality: Results from 2 Prospective Cohort Studies'. Arch Intern Med. 2012;172(7):555-563

    A plant-based diet -- good for us and for the planet

    MJA Open 2012; 1 Suppl 2: 5-6.
    doi:
    10.5694/mjao11.11508
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    Quote Originally Posted by virago88 View Post
    Yeah I should have been specific. I train six times a week (sports and weights) sometimes two training sessions a day. When I was doing paleo- I felt starved, body fat was going up (ableit slowly) and very low energy. Then I researched Paleo for athletes, which allowed for some grains. This was even worse, I was putting on weight at a fast rate and was constantly tired and craving 'junk'. As a vegan I am training with more energy, I am trainingnharder and longer, and for the first time in a long time I feel that food is no biggy (meaning it's not constantly on my mind). So I guess for me it's a physical, as well as a psychological improvement.
    Paleo does not promote grains. EVER. Paleo for athletes does include some tubers, but not grains. The problem now with Paleo is that there is so much bad information about it since it became a trend in nutrition (leave to CF'ers to mess up another good thing). I've done full Paleo while training for fights about 10-12x/week and it can be easily done as long as you're doing it right (e.g. increasing protein and fats) and timing the carbs properly.
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    Rodja..
    What combat sport have you competed in on the Paleo diet, im curious.. I think Paleo would be good for sports "in general" just wouldnt have thought it would be very good for combat sports such as boxing or mma? ...

    If you could pm us some info or post back in thread as im quite interested tbh.. I train boxing and thats the only thing that has kept me from trying Paleo as im training like 6 days a week often twicxe a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mumbles12 View Post
    Rodja..
    What combat sport have you competed in on the Paleo diet, im curious.. I think Paleo would be good for sports "in general" just wouldnt have thought it would be very good for combat sports such as boxing or mma? ...

    If you could pm us some info or post back in thread as im quite interested tbh.. I train boxing and thats the only thing that has kept me from trying Paleo as im training like 6 days a week often twicxe a day.
    Why wouldn't it be good for combat sports? It requires a lot of discipline during the initial transition period as you may feel lethargic and somewhat weak, but it subsides after 10-14 days. The key is that you have to implement tubers on a more frequent basis to keep glycogen stores high and to not be afraid of fats. Fats often comprise >40% of my total caloric intake while full Paleo.
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    I competed in kickboxing on a keto all was fine energy wise I had a ton during training csmp
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