Low Testosterone at 19 (Please read)

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    Low Testosterone at 19 (Please read)


    Hey everyone,

    Okay, so I ran a cycle of M-Drol at 16 and a few months and had no idea what I was doing (I was told it was a weight gainer and believe me, it was the biggest mistake of my life). I took liver cleaner while on it and didn't even "properly" take the cycle. I believe there was about 45 pills in the bottle and I probably took 40 or so (threw up a few). I started my PCT a few days after (Arimidex) but I stopped after 3-5 days because of the intense breakouts I was experiencing on my body, so I basically never finished my PCT and now I understand how foolish this was... anyways, I always felt really low, no energy, emotional, and after researching I felt I had low testosterone levels. I tried Formadrol on its own and it made me feel really good, I even started taking Zinc every night to boost my levels. I got a blood test about 1-2 weeks after getting off Formadrol, and it was at 483 (what I felt was low at 18). I waited and got a blood test recently and have been clean (no supplements, just whey and casein proteins) and found out my testosterone was 220... I'm only 19... I was prescribed AndrolGel and I do not want to take it because I've heard stories of people in my situation who have tried Clomid or other things to get their bodies to naturally produce testosterone again. I've also heard about HCG and how it can "kick start/restart" the body's production of testosterone (by mimicking LH) and would not be needed long term, as in every 2 weeks for the rest of my life (HRT). Is there anyone who can clear things up for me? I am planning on getting referred to an endocrinologist (or should it be a urologist?) and want some advice beforehand. I never told my doctor I took a prohormone because he never really gives me the chance to talk and I'm so ashamed of myself. Can anyone give me hope for a life of natural test production?

    Thank you

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    Hell of a first post to say the least!
    get back on arimidex at .25mg 2x a week. Wait to see if your body recovers. Dont take anymore "supplements" you have no idea what;s in them!
    Stop being so impatient it cant get any worse than it is.
    If it doesnt get better in 6-8 weeks then go to the doctor again and do a full panel blood work to see where you stand. There is no sure thing you will recover but I would say you r young and the odds are with you just give it a chance.
    No androgel at this time just wait
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    I would tell your doc honestly man. He's your doctor and can't fully asses you without knowing every detail. Just my 2 cents
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    Sorry if it's a lot for a first post, I just really wanted to get it all out there and see what to do. Do you think I should just wait to see the endocrinologist? I am definitely going to tell him everything because I feel like if anyone would know what do to it'd be him. Are you sure I should start Arimidex again? Because when I stop taking Arimidex won't my body rebound and go just as low as it was before, if not lower?
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    Honestly there are a lot of smart people on this board but I don't think there's many doctors lol if it was me I would tell my doctor and see what he says. The low test could certainly be from your cycle or you could be born with naturally low test..your doctor can only assume the latter if you haven't told him anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesremmy View Post
    Sorry if it's a lot for a first post, I just really wanted to get it all out there and see what to do. Do you think I should just wait to see the endocrinologist? I am definitely going to tell him everything because I feel like if anyone would know what do to it'd be him. Are you sure I should start Arimidex again? Because when I stop taking Arimidex won't my body rebound and go just as low as it was before, if not lower?
    Ok forget what I said in my other post I missed your time table here
    Let me get this straight...you did this cycle at 16 and now at 19 your test is low?What did you do for 3 years??
    Can you post your history of what you took and when?...when did formadrol came into the picture?
    When did you start feeling crappy?
    Please post a time table of everything you took because if we are talking about 3 years here then we are talking about a different approach!

    I will warn you now there is no sure way to get you back from this. It;s going to be hit or miss hoping and praying!
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    Order some Clomid, dose it at 25mg for 6 weeks, and see how you feel after imo
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    I took it when I was 16 1/4 and around 16 1/2 I started to feel the effects. I broke out all over my body (had to see a dermatologist and take Monodox for close to 5 months) and I saw a little sign of gynocomastia. I didn't really think much about it and didn't even think about my testosterone levels. Then I thought about taking a test booster to get bigger, and after reading all the benefits (basically the "cure" to my symptoms) I decided to take Formadrol around March this year (blood work in April came back as 483, just as I was finished with Formadol - probably about 3 days after finishing I got the blood work done). Then I started working out a lot more seriously (since June) and I have gotten bigger and what not but I feel the same... I never feel aroused or I never share the same "omg I just wanna f*** any girl I see" mentality. I also noticed over the past year my erections slowly became weaker and it took a lot more to even get me interested. Like in my head I am thinking sexually and getting turned on, it just doesn't "transfer" downstairs. So I went back and got a blood test about a week ago and 220 is far below the "normal" range, let alone the 240-800 range posted on my blood work results. I was prescribed AndroGel and after tons of research I saw a lot of people in somewhat similiar conditions who took HCG and had their testosterone levels "rebooted" but more commonly those who took Clomid and had phenomenal results (reboot from 150's back to 650's type of results!). I am trying to get referred to an endocrinologist so I can, firstly, explain everything (come clean about my pro-hormonal use) and secondly, discuss a better option. Clomid is prescribed so I don't really know how to get it, unless it was illegally. In that case how can I be sure it would even be real?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesremmy View Post
    I took it when I was 16 1/4 and around 16 1/2 I started to feel the effects. I broke out all over my body (had to see a dermatologist and take Monodox for close to 5 months) and I saw a little sign of gynocomastia. I didn't really think much about it and didn't even think about my testosterone levels. Then I thought about taking a test booster to get bigger, and after reading all the benefits (basically the "cure" to my symptoms) I decided to take Formadrol around March this year (blood work in April came back as 483, just as I was finished with Formadol - probably about 3 days after finishing I got the blood work done). Then I started working out a lot more seriously (since June) and I have gotten bigger and what not but I feel the same... I never feel aroused or I never share the same "omg I just wanna f*** any girl I see" mentality. I also noticed over the past year my erections slowly became weaker and it took a lot more to even get me interested. Like in my head I am thinking sexually and getting turned on, it just doesn't "transfer" downstairs. So I went back and got a blood test about a week ago and 220 is far below the "normal" range, let alone the 240-800 range posted on my blood work results. I was prescribed AndroGel and after tons of research I saw a lot of people in somewhat similiar conditions who took HCG and had their testosterone levels "rebooted" but more commonly those who took Clomid and had phenomenal results (reboot from 150's back to 650's type of results!). I am trying to get referred to an endocrinologist so I can, firstly, explain everything (come clean about my pro-hormonal use) and secondly, discuss a better option. Clomid is prescribed so I don't really know how to get it, unless it was illegally. In that case how can I be sure it would even be real?
    Hmm. Beats me.. get it prescribed then! just tell your doctor, hey i ****ed up got peer pressured, they cant judge you
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesremmy View Post
    I took it when I was 16 1/4 and around 16 1/2 I started to feel the effects. I broke out all over my body (had to see a dermatologist and take Monodox for close to 5 months) and I saw a little sign of gynocomastia. I didn't really think much about it and didn't even think about my testosterone levels. Then I thought about taking a test booster to get bigger, and after reading all the benefits (basically the "cure" to my symptoms) I decided to take Formadrol around March this year (blood work in April came back as 483, just as I was finished with Formadol - probably about 3 days after finishing I got the blood work done). Then I started working out a lot more seriously (since June) and I have gotten bigger and what not but I feel the same... I never feel aroused or I never share the same "omg I just wanna f*** any girl I see" mentality. I also noticed over the past year my erections slowly became weaker and it took a lot more to even get me interested. Like in my head I am thinking sexually and getting turned on, it just doesn't "transfer" downstairs. So I went back and got a blood test about a week ago and 220 is far below the "normal" range, let alone the 240-800 range posted on my blood work results. I was prescribed AndroGel and after tons of research I saw a lot of people in somewhat similiar conditions who took HCG and had their testosterone levels "rebooted" but more commonly those who took Clomid and had phenomenal results (reboot from 150's back to 650's type of results!). I am trying to get referred to an endocrinologist so I can, firstly, explain everything (come clean about my pro-hormonal use) and secondly, discuss a better option. Clomid is prescribed so I don't really know how to get it, unless it was illegally. In that case how can I be sure it would even be real?
    Ok i get the picture. TO me it looks that you never really recovered from the initial cycle from your description.
    You can go to a doctor in this case but you will have an uphill battle because many doctors have no idea what to do. Prob if you go to a fertility doctor he/she will give you clomid which what is used for primarely and perhaps HCG and if you lucky arimidex. In any case you have 2 choices;
    1. Either find a good doctor
    2. Get this stuff yourself and follow a protocol including HCG, HMG(if you really bad), clomid, arimidex, and even androgel.
    In any case bloodwork will help to pin point what protocol to use. Your problem can stem from pituitary, high estrogen, your gonads not working among other and/or all 3. Based on blood work and physical exam a good doctor will be able to give you a protocol for your problem.
    If you have blood work I could help you as well with what to take and how much if your doc might not be in the loop with dosages and what not.
    I think your case is a little more serious than i initialy thought but with a more agressive treatment you might recover. Recovery time might end up taking up to a year but the sooner you jolt your body back in line the better.
    From my experience this is how I would approach it.
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    I am going to get referred to an endocrinologist in my area soon (just need to find one with my insurance) and I will let you all know how it goes. I appreciate all the advice given, it means a lot.
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    Jamesremmy, let us know how it goes with the endocrinologist. I've been feeling ****ty since doing a one month prohormone cycle back in may (cynostane and protodrol), been to the doc and my test levels are just on the lower end of the range 10.5 nmol/l which is around 250-300 ng/dl and he wouldnt listen that my test was low and instead prescribed me antidepressants! I have been trying a whole load of natural test boosters and they havent helped! Thinking my only option now is something like clomid but also considering trying reboot by forerunner labs. Interested to know if anyone has tried reboot?
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    Hello chaddaly,

    I am scheduled to meet with an endocrinologist early October so I just have to wait a little bit. I tried to increase my testosterone naturally by taking around 233% DV of Zinc (I believe it was 50mg, not 100% sure) and it didn't really help. I am going to tell my endo everything and hopefully I can get prescribed Clomid and a SERM so I do not get too much estrogen rebound. I have not heard anything about "reboot" but at this point I would not try to mess around with anything, I would see a new doctor or get a script to an endocrinologist. I will let you and everyone else know what happens in about 3 weeks.
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    Jesus man prohormones at 16?! ouchy. I'm curious to hear what happens keep us updated
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    Hey everyone, thought I'd keep everyone updated with what's going on. I saw an endocrinologist today and basically just came clean and told her absolutely everything. She's going to do research on the contents of M-drol and specifically what hormones it contains that were introduced into my body so we can find out exactly what to do to reverse it. She believes either my body completely stopped testosterone production, or that my hormones are being suppressed. She believes the latter because we went over the blood work and my LH levels are very, very low. We also discussed possible options, and Clomid + Arimidex seem like very real and reasonable approaches. I am most likely going to get one more full blood panel done, but my next appointment is in three weeks. I will keep everyone updated once I go back, but until then I will just keep on keeping on. Best regards to everyone, fingers crossed.
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    Hello everyone, here to update this thread with all the recent information, and it's a lottt! So after seeing the endocrinologist I had another appointment about 3-4 weeks later. I saw her again, we ran through all the options and decided I'd need another full blood panel done, but this one had some more specific hormones listed. She also checked my testicles and they are the right size for my age (no atrophy whatsoever). Then I got my blood work done and just spoke to her yesterday. My total testosterone came back at 526!!! I haven't seen the physical copy with the specifics of all the hormones listed, but she is mailing it to me (I will post the exact numbers, including free test, LH, etc.). It turns out I have mild beta thalassemia so that has a slight impact on my testosterone (red blood cells have a much shorter life). I've also noticed an increasing in sexual desire and strength of erections. Even had morning wood the other day! Now I know 526 at 19 isn't ideal, but it's better than 483 when I was on a testosterone booster and 220 only a few months later. My endocrinologist said it usually takes about 7+ months for the hypothalamus-pituitary axis to "restart" on its own and I'm right around there (took Formadrol in April so it's been about 7 months). At this point I just need to continue with heavy lifting and compound exercises (I have incorporated squats and deadlifts into my routine). I will post the specifics when I get them but man am I glad I didn't jump into anything serious like TRT or Clomid + Arimidex!

    Cheers mates,
    JR
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    You're back in the driver's seat dude.....but now be careful...eat and train intelligently from here on in....at your age you've got many years of natural gains that'll keep you away from hormones all together if you play your cards right.......good luck!
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    I went through an issue similar (though more damaging and drastic) to you about 8 years ago. I'd be happy to discuss details including negative effects, recovery, etc. in pm/email.


    To anyone else reading this, it should be lesson to A. know what you are putting in your body and know what it can do; and, B. don't use hormones - especially when you are still developing physiologically and psychologically.

    Br
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    glad to hear all is going well man! Good thing our bodies tend to have their own "Restart" method after we do something to **** them up!
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    Hello all,

    Back again with some more news. So I stopped taking a pre workout, started taking some amino acids intraworkout an lifting a bit heavier throughout the spring. I took a month off of working out because I'm in school for the summer an have a lot of classes. That being said I got a blood test done in late May and my testosterone came back around the low 400's. THEN I took the month off and got a blood test in July (the 3rd I believe) and my results came back at 645... I'm beyond confused. How or why does my testosterone fluctuate THAT much?... I still have low libido, have difficult getting an erection and even more difficulty maintaining an erection. My prolactin was a bit high in February or March if that helps. Does anyone have any advice? I was considering possibly running Clomid + Arimidex but I'm not sure. Can anyone explain how estrogen plays a part in this?

    -JR
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    When you work hard out among other hormones testosterone is used to rebuilt muscle. When you stopped working out there is more available test to roam around. So, under load your body just doesnt produce enough test to support your workout regiment at this moment anyway.
    There is also the estrogen which is the feedback mechanism to test production which if it's out of wack it also affects prolactin. I think that you still need to lower estrogen and even prolactin and let your body reset itself.
    Arimidex and clomid will really not harm you anymore more than you are already from the PH. Actually it can help you out reset your pituitary normal function closer to normal as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    When you work hard out among other hormones testosterone is used to rebuilt muscle. When you stopped working out there is more available test to roam around. So, under load your body just doesnt produce enough test to support your workout regiment at this moment anyway.
    There is also the estrogen which is the feedback mechanism to test production which if it's out of wack it also affects prolactin. I think that you still need to lower estrogen and even prolactin and let your body reset itself.
    Arimidex and clomid will really not harm you anymore more than you are already from the PH. Actually it can help you out reset your pituitary normal function closer to normal as possible.
    While testosterone will effect protein synthesis, the amount of protein synthesis and muscle repair/building occurring in the body does not effect test levels very much...as far as I have seen. A state of over reaching or overtraining will reduce test levels, but it is not because test is being "used up".

    Second, estrogen is not the feedback mechanism behind testosterone production. It is a negative feedback loop, with testosterone itself as the regulator.

    To the original poster, what were your LH and FSH levels at?

    If test is low AND LH/FSH is low, then it is likely a hypothalamic/pituitary issue.
    If, however, test is low and LH/FSH are normal or high, then it is more than likely an issue with production occurring at the testies.

    I think you should get some more information, including what your estrogen levels actually are at before using a SARM.
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    what does the doctor recommend? what are you doing/can you do to treat the beta thalassemia? what is your diet like? i don't think low 400s is super low (correct me if i'm wrong) and i know that testosterone levels do fluctuate quite a bit naturally. having a low libido at your age does sound like a troubling sign tho. how do you feel otherwise?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    While testosterone will effect protein synthesis, the amount of protein synthesis and muscle repair/building occurring in the body does not effect test levels very much...as far as I have seen. A state of over reaching or overtraining will reduce test levels, but it is not because test is being "used up".

    Second, estrogen is not the feedback mechanism behind testosterone production. It is a negative feedback loop, with testosterone itself as the regulator.

    To the original poster, what were your LH and FSH levels at?

    If test is low AND LH/FSH is low, then it is likely a hypothalamic/pituitary issue.
    If, however, test is low and LH/FSH are normal or high, then it is more than likely an issue with production occurring at the testies.

    I think you should get some more information, including what your estrogen levels actually are at before using a SARM.
    I dont necessarely agree with everything you said and I dont see any suggestions you put forth to what he can attempt to fix the problem. Regardless if the problem is gonads or pituitary he still needs a PCT. Now if you want to split hairs based on blood work that is up to the original poster but if I were in his position I'd do a full PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    I dont necessarely agree with everything you said and I dont see any suggestions you put forth to what he can attempt to fix the problem. Regardless if the problem is gonads or pituitary he still needs a PCT. Now if you want to split hairs based on blood work that is up to the original poster but if I were in his position I'd do a full PCT.
    Why do you not agree with me? Can you provide evidence to back up your claim (at least as I read it) that testosterone is used up by the muscles? And that his body does not produce enough test to support his workout regimen? What about high level female athletes who train with weights 2-3 times a day 5-6 days a week and are natural? They do not produce very much testosterone, and it is not due to the fact that training eats it all up.

    I next ask you to provide some evidence that estrogen provides negative feedback toward testosterone production. Specifically I would like to see some evidence that estradiol inhibits pituitary function. Extra testosterone can be aromatized to estrogen, true. And estradiol may have an inhibitory role on leydig cell proliferation, but that is only under extreme levels (like if he were taking birth control pills).

    Here's the thing, you need to understand the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis before you can give advice regarding "PCT", and you need to see a more complete panel of blood work to understand what is going on.
    If, for example, both his testosterone and LH levels are low, then its likely that using some form of gonadotropin stimulating hormone (HCG) will increase test production and MAY reverse the issue.
    On the other hand, if his test is low but his LH are normal or high, it means his testies are not responding to the natural production of gonadotropin. Administering more will likely not have much effect, and may even further desensitize the leydig cells to LH, resulting in further suppression.

    Do you see how your suggestion can possibly lead to further complications without fully knowing what is going on? My advice is to get a full blood panel done and see an endocrinologist or urologist who specializes in male reproduction.
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    why does he need a full pct 3 years after his cycle? shouldn't he be back to homeostasis by now
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    ZiR, you are a credit to this community.

    Before I go on I will say that I definitely second seeking an endocrinologists help in this matter before seeking to self medicate. But I will just add this:

    hCG mimics LH and is thus used to maintain testicular function on cycle. When you put in any kind of AAS/PH that causes inhibition of HPGA and down regulation of GnRH (without GnRH the body stops producing LH) hcG is useful to continue the production of testosterone in the testes. However it should be ceased off cycle as it is suppressive and will just prolong the shutdown.

    Blindly running PCTs is not the answer. If you search the anabolics thread you will see countless threads of people who run PCT after PCT trying to reverse shutdown, only to prolong it and cause the body further distress. In these cases, you should seek medical help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Why do you not agree with me? Can you provide evidence to back up your claim (at least as I read it) that testosterone is used up by the muscles? And that his body does not produce enough test to support his workout regimen? What about high level female athletes who train with weights 2-3 times a day 5-6 days a week and are natural? They do not produce very much testosterone, and it is not due to the fact that training eats it all up.

    I next ask you to provide some evidence that estrogen provides negative feedback toward testosterone production. Specifically I would like to see some evidence that estradiol inhibits pituitary function. Extra testosterone can be aromatized to estrogen, true. And estradiol may have an inhibitory role on leydig cell proliferation, but that is only under extreme levels (like if he were taking birth control pills).

    Here's the thing, you need to understand the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis before you can give advice regarding "PCT", and you need to see a more complete panel of blood work to understand what is going on.
    If, for example, both his testosterone and LH levels are low, then its likely that using some form of gonadotropin stimulating hormone (HCG) will increase test production and MAY reverse the issue.
    On the other hand, if his test is low but his LH are normal or high, it means his testies are not responding to the natural production of gonadotropin. Administering more will likely not have much effect, and may even further desensitize the leydig cells to LH, resulting in further suppression.

    Do you see how your suggestion can possibly lead to further complications without fully knowing what is going on? My advice is to get a full blood panel done and see an endocrinologist or urologist who specializes in male reproduction.
    He already provided you with that evidence...he said when he was working out his test levels were 400 once he stopped levels were 600 or so. Is not complicated you make more complicated that it is.
    And yes blah blah I know how the axis work but sometimes it doesnt work the way it's described in the book because no one really takes PHs then does a study in how it affects the body. I'm well aware of all aspects of PCT what's unpredictable is how the body will re-adjust from a cycle. Sometimes there are ppl who their axis is stuck pure and simple in an unpredictable cycle due to the use of steroids. By doing a PCT will hopefully shock this hormonal unbalance back to a more positive balance. Oral steroids also affects the liver which produces among other things SHBG. THat can be a culprit as well lowering his free test. He may produce an enzyme the will convert test to estrogen more than it should. THere are many posibilities what could be wrong with him.
    It is also possible that with all this blood work you are suggesting, which is fine, this guy may never recover fully from this PH use. So, my point is simply to do a full PCT even 3 years after because if his body is stuck he could be stuck like this for years and it is what his body deems the new normal. I have been on the juice for 15 years pretty much straight I can tell you that no one cycle has been the same even when I did same dosages/training and food. Recovery also varies from compound to compound as well. It is way too much stuff to get into and sometimes I just simplify it because I dont feel like writing a ton to explain all this...it is not that intertesting to me at times.
    We can agree to disagree on this one but I do have years of experience with all these compounds and I have a very good idea how these hormones behave in the presence of steroids and after cycles.
    There isnt much as I can see for you to teach me at this point so just drop it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnybeegood View Post
    why does he need a full pct 3 years after his cycle? shouldn't he be back to homeostasis by now
    because in a fair amount of cases after steroid use once the balance is compromised the homeostasis is not what it once was.
    Sometimes the original homeostesis may not be reached again and ppl end up on HRT after one cycle of steroids or it can happen few years down the road.
    If you dont do steroids it is hard to understand how the body behaves and doctors besides starting you on HCG/HMG is not much they can do either. There is no cure for a ****ed up pituitary. Most times after cycling steroids tesosterone levels drop and continue to drop the more cycles you do. Sometimes it just drops from only one cycle..it's very unpredictable.
    So for those who do not want to deal with this stay away from steroids, PHs or anything that will shut your system dowm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    He already provided you with that evidence...he said when he was working out his test levels were 400 once he stopped levels were 600 or so. Is not complicated you make more complicated that it is.
    And yes blah blah I know how the axis work but sometimes it doesnt work the way it's described in the book because no one really takes PHs then does a study in how it affects the body. I'm well aware of all aspects of PCT what's unpredictable is how the body will re-adjust from a cycle. Sometimes there are ppl who their axis is stuck pure and simple in an unpredictable cycle due to the use of steroids. By doing a PCT will hopefully shock this hormonal unbalance back to a more positive balance. Oral steroids also affects the liver which produces among other things SHBG. THat can be a culprit as well lowering his free test. He may produce an enzyme the will convert test to estrogen more than it should. THere are many posibilities what could be wrong with him.
    It is also possible that with all this blood work you are suggesting, which is fine, this guy may never recover fully from this PH use. So, my point is simply to do a full PCT even 3 years after because if his body is stuck he could be stuck like this for years and it is what his body deems the new normal. I have been on the juice for 15 years pretty much straight I can tell you that no one cycle has been the same even when I did same dosages/training and food. Recovery also varies from compound to compound as well. It is way too much stuff to get into and sometimes I just simplify it because I dont feel like writing a ton to explain all this...it is not that intertesting to me at times.
    We can agree to disagree on this one but I do have years of experience with all these compounds and I have a very good idea how these hormones behave in the presence of steroids and after cycles.
    There isnt much as I can see for you to teach me at this point so just drop it.
    Your not grasping it though; re-read ZiRs post about it NOT being just about test levels, but LH and FSH levels. These things help guide the direction and course of treatment. Just because someone has low testosterone production doesn't mean that a PCT will fix it. It all depends on the cause of that low T and where in the T production or distribution chain that is causing the issues. It really is this complicated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    (1) He already provided you with that evidence...he said when he was working out his test levels were 400 once he stopped levels were 600 or so. Is not complicated you make more complicated that it is.
    And yes blah blah I know how the axis work but sometimes it doesnt work the way it's described in the book (2) because no one really takes PHs then does a study in how it affects the body. I'm well aware of all aspects of PCT what's unpredictable is how the body will re-adjust from a cycle. Sometimes there are ppl who their axis is stuck pure and simple in an unpredictable cycle due to the use of steroids. (3) By doing a PCT will hopefully shock this hormonal unbalance back to a more positive balance. Oral steroids also affects the liver which produces among other things SHBG. THat can be a culprit as well lowering his free test. He may produce an enzyme the will convert test to estrogen more than it should. (4) THere are many posibilities what could be wrong with him.
    It is also possible that with all this blood work you are suggesting, which is fine, this guy may never recover fully from this PH use. (5) So, my point is simply to do a full PCT even 3 years after because if his body is stuck he could be stuck like this for years and it is what his body deems the new normal. I have been on the juice for 15 years pretty much straight I can tell you that no one cycle has been the same even when I did same dosages/training and food. Recovery also varies from compound to compound as well. It is way too much stuff to get into and sometimes I just simplify it because I dont feel like writing a ton to explain all this...it is not that intertesting to me at times.
    We can agree to disagree on this one but I do have years of experience with all these compounds and I have a very good idea how these hormones behave in the presence of steroids and after cycles.
    (6) There isnt much as I can see for you to teach me at this point so just drop it.
    1. That is not evidence. That's coincidence. There could have been a myriad of other factors that led to those changes in total test.

    2. Actually, there is a fair amount of case studies on pubmed that describe the effects of prohormone and steroid use on the HPTA and other physiological processes in the body. It may be under studied, but it has been studied.

    3. You do not "shock" the body. The body reacts to internal/external stimuli in a fairly predictable manner. Just because you have used steroids does not place you outside the rules of human physiology. As I described above, different PCT drugs could help, but they could also make things worse. Its important to know exactly what is occurring before deciding on which to take. As an analogy, imagine bringing your car to the mechanic and saying "its not running right" and then he says without even looking at it "That's because it needs a new engine". Pretty much the same advice you are giving here.

    4. Exactly, he needs to narrow it down in order to treat the specific cause.

    5. Or, it could cause further suppression.

    6. I have no interest in teaching you anything, and the only reason I am responding to your nonsense posts is for the sake of the original poster and others who may be reading this thread for information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    1. That is not evidence. That's coincidence. There could have been a myriad of other factors that led to those changes in total test.

    2. Actually, there is a fair amount of case studies on pubmed that describe the effects of prohormone and steroid use on the HPTA and other physiological processes in the body. It may be under studied, but it has been studied.

    3. You do not "shock" the body. The body reacts to internal/external stimuli in a fairly predictable manner. Just because you have used steroids does not place you outside the rules of human physiology. As I described above, different PCT drugs could help, but they could also make things worse. Its important to know exactly what is occurring before deciding on which to take. As an analogy, imagine bringing your car to the mechanic and saying "its not running right" and then he says without even looking at it "That's because it needs a new engine". Pretty much the same advice you are giving here.

    4. Exactly, he needs to narrow it down in order to treat the specific cause.

    5. Or, it could cause further suppression.

    6. I have no interest in teaching you anything, and the only reason I am responding to your nonsense posts is for the sake of the original poster and others who may be reading this thread for information.
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.
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    Why people bother to argue with Zir is beyond me...

    Man knows his stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.
    Excellent read Zir. Good story that I'm sure is all too common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
    I've said this once recently, but i'll repeat it here. Experience =/= knowledge; nor does it give you the right to "prescribe" anything based on your experiences. I know plenty of nutritionalists with real world experiences of weight loss than do things that I would never do or prescrive. You yourself are a low carb dieter, yes? Yet most of the professionals in the nutrition field still advocate (and rather strongly) for high carb diets or diets high in whole grains. Now, in this case, does experience = knowledge? Or are they simpy regurgitating whatever they were once taught/ themselves experienced?

    head into the anabolics section and look for xams thread (its like 25+ pages in length on the computer) which has been going on for over a year. He is shutdown and has run multiple PCT's hoping it will help restore his body. It has not. He has low T but yet PCT's are not working. This is EXACTLY what ZiR is explaining here; a PCT is not a 'problem solver' and many people will end up on TRT regardless of how successful a PCT was as sometimes there body just never recovers to pre-cycle levels. That is the nature of the game you play when you deal with androgens.

    Also, the phrase PCT means nothing in this sense; PCT's wildly vary depending on compounds and duration of compound use. E.g. a PCT for a 1-DHEA product will differ from a superdrol (M-DROL) cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I've said this once recently, but i'll repeat it here. Experience =/= knowledge; nor does it give you the right to "prescribe" anything based on your experiences. I know plenty of nutritionalists with real world experiences of weight loss than do things that I would never do or prescrive. You yourself are a low carb dieter, yes? Yet most of the professionals in the nutrition field still advocate (and rather strongly) for high carb diets or diets high in whole grains. Now, in this case, does experience = knowledge? Or are they simpy regurgitating whatever they were once taught/ themselves experienced?

    head into the anabolics section and look for xams thread (its like 25+ pages in length on the computer) which has been going on for over a year. He is shutdown and has run multiple PCT's hoping it will help restore his body. It has not. He has low T but yet PCT's are not working. This is EXACTLY what ZiR is explaining here; a PCT is not a 'problem solver' and many people will end up on TRT regardless of how successful a PCT was as sometimes there body just never recovers to pre-cycle levels. That is the nature of the game you play when you deal with androgens.

    Also, the phrase PCT means nothing in this sense; PCT's wildly vary depending on compounds and duration of compound use. E.g. a PCT for a 1-DHEA product will differ from a superdrol (M-DROL) cycle.
    You very observant. Im a low carb dieter and prob going against the grain. However, going back to the subject at hand, doing a PCT doesnt guarantee anything I agree but it's a last ditch effort to jump start his pituitary. Finding where the LH levels are at this point is sort of useless ..who cares. Obviously the OP has below normal test levels and all the testing will not change that. THere are no cures for damaged pituitary or gonads. Like you said it's the nature of the beast. As far as the right to give advice, I preffer people give advice based on their extensive experiences. IT makes it more true and closer to the heart of the subject rather then just quote this or that. I can write a paper to be bias in any way I want, with that said it is up to each individual to balance the results and challange the findings against real world examples. Im not against people that are not doing anabolics jumping in but before they cut and slash others' answers without having extensive personal knowledge in the matter it honestly tends to piss me off. I understand what he meant to say it just came out wrong.
    just a side note, not everybody understands how to run a proper PCT. One can run a plethora of PCTs and do them all wrong. And as you mentioned, most PCT ppl run are ineffective because they just dont know how to run the compounds and very important what compounds to run and the timing of it all. But that's another taking point all together for another time.
    I really dont want to clog up this thread for this guy and with this I will keep it to the original subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.
    Congats on your personal experience with anabolics now you are an expert
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    Anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesremmy View Post
    Anyone?
    Did you get to see an Endo in October? I am willing to help you out with my knowledge. Granted I don't have the degrees or anything like Zir but I know a bit.
    The advice I give is just that... Advice, purely my opinion. Not medical advice
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