Low Testosterone at 19 (Please read)

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    (1) He already provided you with that evidence...he said when he was working out his test levels were 400 once he stopped levels were 600 or so. Is not complicated you make more complicated that it is.
    And yes blah blah I know how the axis work but sometimes it doesnt work the way it's described in the book (2) because no one really takes PHs then does a study in how it affects the body. I'm well aware of all aspects of PCT what's unpredictable is how the body will re-adjust from a cycle. Sometimes there are ppl who their axis is stuck pure and simple in an unpredictable cycle due to the use of steroids. (3) By doing a PCT will hopefully shock this hormonal unbalance back to a more positive balance. Oral steroids also affects the liver which produces among other things SHBG. THat can be a culprit as well lowering his free test. He may produce an enzyme the will convert test to estrogen more than it should. (4) THere are many posibilities what could be wrong with him.
    It is also possible that with all this blood work you are suggesting, which is fine, this guy may never recover fully from this PH use. (5) So, my point is simply to do a full PCT even 3 years after because if his body is stuck he could be stuck like this for years and it is what his body deems the new normal. I have been on the juice for 15 years pretty much straight I can tell you that no one cycle has been the same even when I did same dosages/training and food. Recovery also varies from compound to compound as well. It is way too much stuff to get into and sometimes I just simplify it because I dont feel like writing a ton to explain all this...it is not that intertesting to me at times.
    We can agree to disagree on this one but I do have years of experience with all these compounds and I have a very good idea how these hormones behave in the presence of steroids and after cycles.
    (6) There isnt much as I can see for you to teach me at this point so just drop it.
    1. That is not evidence. That's coincidence. There could have been a myriad of other factors that led to those changes in total test.

    2. Actually, there is a fair amount of case studies on pubmed that describe the effects of prohormone and steroid use on the HPTA and other physiological processes in the body. It may be under studied, but it has been studied.

    3. You do not "shock" the body. The body reacts to internal/external stimuli in a fairly predictable manner. Just because you have used steroids does not place you outside the rules of human physiology. As I described above, different PCT drugs could help, but they could also make things worse. Its important to know exactly what is occurring before deciding on which to take. As an analogy, imagine bringing your car to the mechanic and saying "its not running right" and then he says without even looking at it "That's because it needs a new engine". Pretty much the same advice you are giving here.

    4. Exactly, he needs to narrow it down in order to treat the specific cause.

    5. Or, it could cause further suppression.

    6. I have no interest in teaching you anything, and the only reason I am responding to your nonsense posts is for the sake of the original poster and others who may be reading this thread for information.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    1. That is not evidence. That's coincidence. There could have been a myriad of other factors that led to those changes in total test.

    2. Actually, there is a fair amount of case studies on pubmed that describe the effects of prohormone and steroid use on the HPTA and other physiological processes in the body. It may be under studied, but it has been studied.

    3. You do not "shock" the body. The body reacts to internal/external stimuli in a fairly predictable manner. Just because you have used steroids does not place you outside the rules of human physiology. As I described above, different PCT drugs could help, but they could also make things worse. Its important to know exactly what is occurring before deciding on which to take. As an analogy, imagine bringing your car to the mechanic and saying "its not running right" and then he says without even looking at it "That's because it needs a new engine". Pretty much the same advice you are giving here.

    4. Exactly, he needs to narrow it down in order to treat the specific cause.

    5. Or, it could cause further suppression.

    6. I have no interest in teaching you anything, and the only reason I am responding to your nonsense posts is for the sake of the original poster and others who may be reading this thread for information.
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.

  4. Why people bother to argue with Zir is beyond me...

    Man knows his stuff.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.
    Excellent read Zir. Good story that I'm sure is all too common.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    You seem to be a book worm without any real world experiences in androgens which is clearly obvious from your answers. There seem to be a plethora of ppl like you around the interent. Do 10 cycles or so of different androgens, get some basic hands on experience on this subject, go to a few doctors then tell me what you have learned. I can assure you it will be a different story than you seem to embrace now. THe nonsense Im taking about is based on precisely these experiences. Further more,
    1. There is no cure for a malfunctioning pituitary. All you can do is to alter the signals going in and hope it resets itself.
    2. Doctors even endos do not have the magic wan to fix your problems. Sometimes they dont even deal with someone who have testosterone "within range"
    3. When you take Phs and androgens in general you are shocking the body from what it's used to do perhaps damaging some of the basic pituitary functions.
    I've said this once recently, but i'll repeat it here. Experience =/= knowledge; nor does it give you the right to "prescribe" anything based on your experiences. I know plenty of nutritionalists with real world experiences of weight loss than do things that I would never do or prescrive. You yourself are a low carb dieter, yes? Yet most of the professionals in the nutrition field still advocate (and rather strongly) for high carb diets or diets high in whole grains. Now, in this case, does experience = knowledge? Or are they simpy regurgitating whatever they were once taught/ themselves experienced?

    head into the anabolics section and look for xams thread (its like 25+ pages in length on the computer) which has been going on for over a year. He is shutdown and has run multiple PCT's hoping it will help restore his body. It has not. He has low T but yet PCT's are not working. This is EXACTLY what ZiR is explaining here; a PCT is not a 'problem solver' and many people will end up on TRT regardless of how successful a PCT was as sometimes there body just never recovers to pre-cycle levels. That is the nature of the game you play when you deal with androgens.

    Also, the phrase PCT means nothing in this sense; PCT's wildly vary depending on compounds and duration of compound use. E.g. a PCT for a 1-DHEA product will differ from a superdrol (M-DROL) cycle.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I've said this once recently, but i'll repeat it here. Experience =/= knowledge; nor does it give you the right to "prescribe" anything based on your experiences. I know plenty of nutritionalists with real world experiences of weight loss than do things that I would never do or prescrive. You yourself are a low carb dieter, yes? Yet most of the professionals in the nutrition field still advocate (and rather strongly) for high carb diets or diets high in whole grains. Now, in this case, does experience = knowledge? Or are they simpy regurgitating whatever they were once taught/ themselves experienced?

    head into the anabolics section and look for xams thread (its like 25+ pages in length on the computer) which has been going on for over a year. He is shutdown and has run multiple PCT's hoping it will help restore his body. It has not. He has low T but yet PCT's are not working. This is EXACTLY what ZiR is explaining here; a PCT is not a 'problem solver' and many people will end up on TRT regardless of how successful a PCT was as sometimes there body just never recovers to pre-cycle levels. That is the nature of the game you play when you deal with androgens.

    Also, the phrase PCT means nothing in this sense; PCT's wildly vary depending on compounds and duration of compound use. E.g. a PCT for a 1-DHEA product will differ from a superdrol (M-DROL) cycle.
    You very observant. Im a low carb dieter and prob going against the grain. However, going back to the subject at hand, doing a PCT doesnt guarantee anything I agree but it's a last ditch effort to jump start his pituitary. Finding where the LH levels are at this point is sort of useless ..who cares. Obviously the OP has below normal test levels and all the testing will not change that. THere are no cures for damaged pituitary or gonads. Like you said it's the nature of the beast. As far as the right to give advice, I preffer people give advice based on their extensive experiences. IT makes it more true and closer to the heart of the subject rather then just quote this or that. I can write a paper to be bias in any way I want, with that said it is up to each individual to balance the results and challange the findings against real world examples. Im not against people that are not doing anabolics jumping in but before they cut and slash others' answers without having extensive personal knowledge in the matter it honestly tends to piss me off. I understand what he meant to say it just came out wrong.
    just a side note, not everybody understands how to run a proper PCT. One can run a plethora of PCTs and do them all wrong. And as you mentioned, most PCT ppl run are ineffective because they just dont know how to run the compounds and very important what compounds to run and the timing of it all. But that's another taking point all together for another time.
    I really dont want to clog up this thread for this guy and with this I will keep it to the original subject.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Actually, I do have some personal experience with both AAS use, being shut down, and working with an endo to attempt to restore my own production. You can read my professional write up regarding my experiences here: http://www.informz.net/acsm/data/ima...3_dec-2011.pdf

    I am also a book worm, I have a PhD in exercise physiology, and although my specialization is not endocrinology, I have studied the HPTA enough to be able to know when someone should see a specialist.

    There are plenty of specialists out there who have worked with athletes and individuals who have used AAS. Dr. Michael Werner out of NYC is one. I'm sure there are more.

    Please stop it with this nonsense about shocking the body. With that same train of thought, you might say that using testosterone to bring levels back up to the normal range will "trick" the body into thinking that's where it should maintain test levels. We both know that is asinine. The body does not get shocked, it does not act confused. Its stimuli, reaction, and adaptation. Once you understand how it reacts to stimuli and adapts to stimuli, you will have a better understand of how exogenous hormones effect internal physiology via the negative feedback loop.
    Congats on your personal experience with anabolics now you are an expert

  9. Anyone?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by jamesremmy View Post
    Anyone?
    Did you get to see an Endo in October? I am willing to help you out with my knowledge. Granted I don't have the degrees or anything like Zir but I know a bit.
    The advice I give is just that... Advice, purely my opinion. Not medical advice

  11. Wow, I feel like a complete idiot... I didn't even see this second page..... That being said I have no taken a PCT because I wanted to give my body more time off any sort of supplements (including stimulants like pre workouts). I have a script for a blood test to check my testosterone and estrogen levels only. I have a very stingy endocrinologist who insists I'm fine and doesn't really want to work out the problem. In fact, I'm fairly certain I have slight gynecomastia and she refuses to take action. Does anyone know what type of imaging I would need to confirm or disprove my suspicions? Possibly an MRI on my chest? My diet is not that great, especially since I'm a full time student and biochemist (very time consuming schedule). I am probably getting bloodwork done sometime soon. As for the thalassemia believe it or not I was told to take prenatal vitamins because they are high in B vitamins and folic acid. I have worked out maybe 4 or 5 times these past three months because I've been so busy. Lastly, I wanted to thank everyone on this thread for the help, it means a lot. Especially ZiR, excellent backing to your statements, and you too Jiigzz!
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