More evidence that carbs post workout are overrated

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    More evidence that carbs post workout are overrated


    Co-ingestion of 50g of carbs along with whey protein did not enhance muscle protein synthesis.

    So much for the idea that you NEED carbs immediately after a workout

    Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-induced protein accretion versus protein alone.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE:

    We tested the thesis that CHO and protein coingestion would augment muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and inhibit muscle protein breakdown (MPB) at rest and after resistance exercise.
    METHODS:

    Nine men (age=23.0±1.9 yr, body mass index=24.2±2.1 kg·m) performed two unilateral knee extension trials (four sets×8-12 repetitions to failure) followed by consumption of 25 g of whey protein (PRO) or 25 g of whey protein plus 50 g of maltodextrin (PRO+CARB). Muscle biopsies and stable isotope methodology were used to measure MPS and MPB.
    RESULTS:

    The areas under the glucose and insulin curves were 17.5-fold (P<0.05) and 5-fold (P<0.05) greater, respectively, for PRO+CARB than for PRO. Exercise increased MPS and MPB (both P<0.05), but there were no differences between PRO and PRO+CARB in the rested or exercised legs. Phosphorylation of Akt was greater in the PRO+CARB than in the PRO trial (P<0.05); phosphorylations of Akt (P=0.05) and acetyl coA carboxylase-β (P<0.05) were greater after exercise than at rest. The concurrent ingestion of 50 g of CHO with 25 g of protein did not stimulate mixed MPS or inhibit MPB more than 25 g of protein alone either at rest or after resistance exercise.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS.

    PMID: 21131864
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    I am not sure that 4 sets of leg extensions counts as a 'workout' lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I am not sure that 4 sets of leg extensions counts as a 'workout' lol.
    Warm up maybe.

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    i thought most people knew this already
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    yeah that "workout" reminds me of ron burgundy....the test subject probably did those extensions and then all sweaty and supposedly out of breath says: Oh-h, it's the deep burn! Oh, it's so deep! Oh, I can barely lift my right leg 'cause I did so many. I don't know if you heard me counting, I did over a thousand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StackedCop View Post
    Warm up maybe.
    ^^Not even a warm up. I would def do more to prevent the "Johnny Bravo Effect"
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    Quote Originally Posted by iliketosquat View Post
    i thought most people knew this already
    That's why the thread title says "more evidence"....

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    How long did they run the study? what was the hypertrophy differences? what was their diet like throughout the day? these studies are useless for bodybuilding purposes.
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    interesting, subbed for more info
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I am not sure that 4 sets of leg extensions counts as a 'workout' lol.
    Are you suggesting that a longer workout would have showed different results from between whey and whey+CHO?
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    Will still eat carbs, I don't care either whey
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh

    Are you suggesting that a longer workout would have showed different results from between whey and whey+CHO?
    I think so. For one what they called a workout probably wouldn't even reduce glycogen stores. But idk much so thats just my .02
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    I would HOPE people would know this already. It's been proven time and time again, although carbs after working out will more than likely make you feel better/ have some energy.
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    My beef with this post is that it assumes this research is worth consideration. If there were no other research done, this on its own doesn't prove anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fadi
    My beef with this post is that it assumes this research is worth consideration. If there were no other research done, this on its own doesn't prove anything.
    Exactly, this study has several problems with the methodology. The workout intensity, and amounts consumed being the most glaring issues.

    Typically a post workout shake should have a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio carb to protein, not 2:1 (50g would not cause much/any insulin spike in a trained, healthy male). The type of carb also matters, M.D. wouldn't be the most ideal.

    Refilling glycogen storage is a crucial part as well and if you don't deplete it you don't need to replenish it so the desired muscular effect would not occur if you're not working hard enough to cause that glycogen need.

    This study seems to have been designed with a bias to achieve a particular result... if they had treated it without bias and done real testing with proper methodology you could see a different result.

    Edit: also typically athletes would consume between .75-1.5g/kg in carbs post workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsnake21 View Post
    I think so. For one what they called a workout probably wouldn't even reduce glycogen stores. But idk much so thats just my .02
    On the subject of how much were glycogen stores reduced..

    The subjects performed leg extensions for 4 sets of 8-12 (till failure). Now according to Prilephin's chart I think we can assume the load used was around 70-80%1RM. Now look at the data from PMID: 8775516 and PMID: 2055849 we can estimate that glycogen utilization is relative to how long each set lasts. So at 70%1RM we can conclude the glycogen depletion rate is roughly 1.3 mmol/kg/repetition.

    But more importantly, the question is what impact does this have to do with MPS? Glycogen depletion causes a loss of water within the muscle and taking in carbs helps to reverse this by increasing hydration, BUT what does this have to do with MPS? From the data that is out now there is nothing that I know of that shows that increasing cellular hydration above normal levels immediately post-workout will improve protein synthesis above normal. Glycogen will be replaced regardless when the carbs are consumed.

    Again I will ask, from the study in my original post we see that MPS is stimulated from whey alone correct? We also see that adding CHO to whey did not increase MPS. So I ask, why do it?

    Bottom line is that a large spike in insulin post-workout does nothing for muscle resysthesis. It refills glycogen faster but in no way does that equal a faster rate in muscle resynthesis will occur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    On the subject of how much were glycogen stores reduced..

    The subjects performed leg extensions for 4 sets of 8-12 (till failure). Now according to Prilephin's chart I think we can assume the load used was around 70-80%1RM. Now look at the data from PMID: 8775516 and PMID: 2055849 we can estimate that glycogen utilization is relative to how long each set lasts. So at 70%1RM we can conclude the glycogen depletion rate is roughly 1.3 mmol/kg/repetition.

    But more importantly, the question is what impact does this have to do with MPS? Glycogen depletion causes a loss of water within the muscle and taking in carbs helps to reverse this by increasing hydration, BUT what does this have to do with MPS? From the data that is out now there is nothing that I know of that shows that increasing cellular hydration above normal levels immediately post-workout will improve protein synthesis above normal. Glycogen will be replaced regardless when the carbs are consumed.

    Again I will ask, from the study in my original post we see that MPS is stimulated from whey alone correct? We also see that adding CHO to whey did not increase MPS. So I ask, why do it?

    Bottom line is that a large spike in insulin post-workout does nothing for muscle resysthesis. It refills glycogen faster but in no way does that equal a faster rate in muscle resynthesis will occur.
    I agree with this point on the basis of it might not be necessary to elicit the desired effect in terms of that marker. The shortfall with this is that it is a surrogate study on biomarkers of MPS and protein degradation. If the goal was to simply improve these then this study (and others) suggests that protein is enough.

    On the other hand you could say that leucine alone will spike MPS so why bother with whey? To overlook the surrogate nature of this the bigger picture for many is hypertrophy and for this goal there is always going to be the need for adequate calorie intake. For some the post workout shake is a way for them to meet their desired caloric total in which case this is why they would add carbohydrates.

    I absolutely agree that carbohydrates may not be needed in terms of this research. I also think that for hypertrophy just because they aren't necessary post workout doesn't make them unnecessary as part of meeting daily caloric requirements where people can fall short otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    On the other hand you could say that leucine alone will spike MPS so why bother with whey?
    because whey has been shown to result in a increase in lean body weight where as leucine alone has not.

    I see what you are saying though but I have a couple problems. Mainly is the idea many people have (not necessarily you) that they not only NEED CHO postworkout but need a high GI CHO which I have found to not be necessarily true (well not as clear as many people make it seem at least). IIRC there are several studies done by Tipton (using EAA+CHO) that show the complete opposite of the one I posted in the first post but just about all of them are done on fasted subjects.

    The point I am mainly trying to make is against the dogma of postworkout nutrition (the NEED for simple carbs post workout)

    I am actually about to throw up a thread on low GI vs high GI carbs used post workout. From what I been reading it seems you really dont need to have that spike in insulin post workout. Now I am just trying to find something that suggest that when you refill glycogen faster it will result in faster muscle resynthesis and so far it appears the answer is no (or at least hasnt been demonstrated yet)
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    You don't need high GI carbs post workout. Research has shown that over 24 hours post workout, the body will restore the glycogen stores in the same manner if taken all post workout or if spread over the next 24 hours. And I'm not looking up the research for anyone, I don't save them :P
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    I remember an article from John Berardi, which both provided evidence to back up your claims along with claims others here. In essence both parties are right to some degree. While strength athletes deplete glycogen far less than endurance athletes a spike in insulin was shown to be effective for both due to the ability of insulin to stop the catabolic effects of intense exercise , allowing the body to begin repairing faster when ingested with protein (having anabolic properties). So while we don't need carbs as per the study design demonstrated in this instance it does not demonstrate without a doubt carbs are unnecessary after a workout. It has also been documented that ingesting carbs post workout will increase glycogen replenishment by up to 3x compared to after that 2 hour mark.
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    I think there are a lot of things we don't "need", however creating a diet that is diverse in food selection and offers some "treats" here and there is important. So if by eating a bowl of cookie crisp 3 x a week, gives someone some degree of sanity, and allows them to STICK to their plan, then it does more for their physique than sitting here splitting hairs about the rate of MPS.

    I get the point of this thread as there are people so gung ho about this concept(carbs post wo), even though I am not sure I believe it to be definitively true(carbs offering no additional benefit), I just think it is all kind of in consequential. Eat carbs, don't eat carbs, doesn't matter in my experience AS LONG AS the diet as a whole is thought out, and things are accounted for. Look at the big picture.

    I will give someone a high GI snack PWO, and can go on some rant about glycogen replenishment, bla bla(as most people need to know WHY, and need it justified), but at the end of the day I am giving this them this because I CAN(I know results will follow), and because I know these things will prevent the average person from going crazy or straying from my game plan. Compliance is paramount, and without consistency all this means NOTHING.

    Sometimes there is more to it than "Science".

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    People are sure holding on to the almost entirely created by supplement companies all important "window." Don't let research prove anything when broscience and supplement makers can convince you of all the stuff you have to have immediately after working out. It's impossible to consider anyone in history had any strength or muscle before all these pre-intra-post drinks huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyLB50 View Post
    I remember an article from John Berardi, which both provided evidence to back up your claims along with claims others here. In essence both parties are right to some degree. While strength athletes deplete glycogen far less than endurance athletes a spike in insulin was shown to be effective
    Not a spike but the presence of insulin. The idea of needing a large spike PWO also seems to be not as clear as one might thinkg

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyLB50 View Post
    It has also been documented that ingesting carbs post workout will increase glycogen replenishment by up to 3x compared to after that 2 hour mark.
    So the question then becomes, does faster glycogen replenishment = increased MPS? From what I have found there doesnt seem to be anything to support this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    I think there are a lot of things we don't "need", however creating a diet that is diverse in food selection and offers some "treats" here and there is important. So if by eating a bowl of cookie crisp 3 x a week, gives someone some degree of sanity, and allows them to STICK to their plan, then it does more for their physique than sitting here splitting hairs about the rate of MPS.
    i understand the point you are making with regard to dietary adherence but is that not what refeed s and cheat meals are for? I usually tell people to "suck it up" and "man up" , just wait for their scheduled refeed or cheat meal to have their indulgences but I guess I am a little meaner then some

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    I get the point of this thread as there are people so gung ho about this concept(carbs post wo), even though I am not sure I believe it to be definitively true(carbs offering no additional benefit), I just think it is all kind of in consequential. Eat carbs, don't eat carbs, doesn't matter in my experience AS LONG AS the diet as a whole is thought out, and things are accounted for. Look at the big picture.
    Exactly! It is amazing how long and hard someone will hold onto a certain belief despite the lack of evidence supporting it and the amount of evidence against it. The worst one is dietary cholesterol and fat is bad for you.. That one drives me nuts (mostly because I work in a hospital and hear it all damn day long)

    I would of thought the IF crowd would have appreciated this study. Should give some comfort to those who train in the AM and dont eat till several hours later.
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    I suppose I shouldn't have been so vague as to use the term "spike" I meant that you raise it above what it currently was/is. Which would basically mean the presence of insulin, you inferred that I meant a large increase. The main idea that you either didn't see or avoided from my post was that while carbs may not boost the MPS, post workout carbs provide other benefits like stopping the breakdown process, and increasing total glycogen storage compared to 2 hours later or more. Personal preference I think is the best decision given the current evidence. If you feel it's not complimentary to your workouts, don't do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    i understand the point you are making with regard to dietary adherence but is that not what refeed s and cheat meals are for? I usually tell people to "suck it up" and "man up" , just wait for their scheduled refeed or cheat meal to have their indulgences but I guess I am a little meaner then some
    It really depends. Take someone who has never dieted in their life, and has awful eating habits and put them on some uber strict diet with no wiggle room, and you are setting them up for failure.

    For some of us who have dieted for YEARS, it seems really easy to say "just eat your damn food, it is fuel, who gives a ****". But the avg person can't do it.

    Also context. are we dieting for a show, or to be 10% bf for the beach?

    It is just all relative to the situation IMO.

    Let me ask you this. Why are 97% of the posts on these boards, people trying to get lean/ripped? MANY of these members have(or think) they have a firm grasp on nutrition and what it takes to get lean, yet there is not an abundance of highly in shape individuals. Why? IMO a large portion of it is this.

    1. Worrying so much about science they are running some cluster **** of a diet..
    2. They clearly can't stick to their own plan. They are going so ****ing by the text book(chicken breast, brown rice, bla bla), it is just ludicrous that anyone except people who actually ENJOY to eat like that could cope with it. So they fail. They miss meals, they cheat, they get burned out and fall off the wagon..

    I appreciate the science, and base a lot of what I do on valid scientific principles(which are always changing..lol), but at the end of the day this **** all boils down to consistency. Pick a ****ing plan of action you can stick to, and DO IT. If that means eating a twinkie a day, FINE..lol

    Exactly! It is amazing how long and hard someone will hold onto a certain belief despite the lack of evidence supporting it and the amount of evidence against it. The worst one is dietary cholesterol and fat is bad for you.. That one drives me nuts (mostly because I work in a hospital and hear it all damn day long)

    I would of thought the IF crowd would have appreciated this study. Should give some comfort to those who train in the AM and dont eat till several hours later.
    I concur. But like all studies we can sit here and go.. Welllllll... who the **** does xx sets of leg ext.. bla bla..

    Take it for what its worth, use it, don't use it, just do something!...lol

    I used to really sit around an analyze every little thing. To the point of stressing myself out. Now, not so much. Hit my macros, lift heavy **** up and down, get results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    1. Worrying so much about science they are running some cluster **** of a diet..
    2. They clearly can't stick to their own plan. They are going so ****ing by the text book(chicken breast, brown rice, bla bla), it is just ludicrous that anyone except people who actually ENJOY to eat like that could cope with it. So they fail. They miss meals, they cheat, they get burned out and fall off the wagon..

    I appreciate the science, and base a lot of what I do on valid scientific principles(which are always changing..lol), but at the end of the day this **** all boils down to consistency. Pick a ****ing plan of action you can stick to, and DO IT. If that means eating a twinkie a day, FINE..lol


    I concur. But like all studies we can sit here and go.. Welllllll... who the **** does xx sets of leg ext.. bla bla..

    Take it for what its worth, use it, don't use it, just do something!...lol

    I used to really sit around an analyze every little thing. To the point of stressing myself out. Now, not so much. Hit my macros, lift heavy **** up and down, get results.
    While I agree with what you're saying I actually feel a bit of the opposite. It's the LACK of science that kills people. "Bro's" just regurgitate things as common knowledge. You gotta eat those carbs in the morning, in the evening they stick to your gut. You gotta have 7 meals a day, steady influx of protein at all meals dude. You can eat anything that is low fat or reduced fat, fat is the enemy. Etc. times a million. Science is a proving ground for why we should behave the way we do. Most people failing in their training/diet is because they ignore science and use the advice that everyone "knows" is true because people say it a lot.
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    no matter how many times these threads are posted it will not change my eating habits, i consume carbs in a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio because im used to it and its filling, although these threads are perfect for people just getting started in nutrition researching for their personal habits...its not just supp companies creating these fads, its everyone who believes everything they hear and constantly preaches it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce
    Link that talks about this stuff specifically.

    The Truth About Post-Workout Nutrition | Chad Waterbury | Workouts To Get Ripped, Ab Exercises For Men, Weight Training For Women
    I was interested in following up some research to validate claims made in this article, until it became a product spotlight for the guys personal product... you're talking about broscience, and supplement manufacturers creating hype to generate profits, then provide a link that does exactly that?

    Science evolves constantly, so you have to stay up on research but your own physiological adaptations from life events separate you from everyone else too which is what you still have to find what works best for you individually using science as a guide to avoid unnecessary pitfalls or setbacks.
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    Like I said things should be based on science sure but science is a tricky bitch and half the brolore out there is based on some study, be it out dated,misinterpreted, etc.

    Everyone on these boards wants to be a Scientist...lol. If people spent half the time they spend over analyzing the last 1% of results, on smashing weights in the gym, or cramming food in their mouths day in and day out for years on end without fail, they would be much more stress free, and larger..lol

    Stop worrying about if pink magic is going to give you better results than whatever other flavor of the month Supp, and go pick something heavy up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyLB50 View Post
    I was interested in following up some research to validate claims made in this article, until it became a product spotlight for the guys personal product... you're talking about broscience, and supplement manufacturers creating hype to generate profits, then provide a link that does exactly that?

    Science evolves constantly, so you have to stay up on research but your own physiological adaptations from life events separate you from everyone else too which is what you still have to find what works best for you individually using science as a guide to avoid unnecessary pitfalls or setbacks.
    Of course that article does, which was precisely the point in linking it! It talks about what we are talking about, then pimps a product. Seems like a lot of articles we read huh?
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    Not the kind of article I prefer to use when learning... I prefer to use research studies with evidence backed results, the peer reviewed and published kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyLB50 View Post
    Not the kind of article I prefer to use when learning... I prefer to use research studies with evidence backed results, the peer reviewed and published kind.
    Like the one in the OP? The vast majority of "accepted" broscience comes from the type of article I linked. It's also commonly found in the company "write-ups" for many supplements with some extract no one has heard of that has one mouse study showing it might do something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    So the question then becomes, does faster glycogen replenishment = increased MPS? From what I have found there doesnt seem to be anything to support this.

    i understand the point you are making with regard to dietary adherence but is that not what refeed s and cheat meals are for? I usually tell people to "suck it up" and "man up" , just wait for their scheduled refeed or cheat meal to have their indulgences but I guess I am a little meaner then some
    there are some studies that show enhanced perceived recovery / lower soreness along with the post workout carbs. Also (which leads to the 2nd part) there isn't particular evidence showing that the carbs reduces MPS either. Whether it makes a fat loss/gain different is separate from muscle growth.

    so going into the second part, its a bit like the 6-8 meals vs 2-3. If something gives you a psychological advantage it isn't a bad thing. Its not necessary, but can be nice.

    My carbs are just as treats, and a few times a week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    Like the one in the OP? The vast majority of "accepted" broscience comes from the type of article I linked. It's also commonly found in the company "write-ups" for many supplements with some extract no one has heard of that has one mouse study showing it might do something.
    That's where you need to be able to critically analyze the information, source, and methodology. If a company sponsors a college research project that gets published... be extra cautious about the methodology and results, if everything looks to be done appropriately, and can be duplicated, give credit where it's due... if there was obvious bias either in structure, interpretation, or collection of data, don't put much stock in the research. In my profession I can't use broscience or give advice that doesn't have solid evidence based research results. If you read articles like you're describing that's only your fault. There is a great deal of nutrition, physiological, medical, endocrine, etc journals available to avoid reading 4 page advertisements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyLB50 View Post
    That's where you need to be able to critically analyze the information, source, and methodology. If a company sponsors a college research project that gets published... be extra cautious about the methodology and results, if everything looks to be done appropriately, and can be duplicated, give credit where it's due... if there was obvious bias either in structure, interpretation, or collection of data, don't put much stock in the research. In my profession I can't use broscience or give advice that doesn't have solid evidence based research results. If you read articles like you're describing that's only your fault. There is a great deal of nutrition, physiological, medical, endocrine, etc journals available to avoid reading 4 page advertisements.
    These are the types of things I read, but I'm not talking about me or you. I'm talking about the "accepted" truth or broscience type stuff and where it originates. And the simple fact is a lot of the stuff started with supplement companies and continues with supplement companies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL
    there are some studies that show enhanced perceived recovery / lower soreness along with the post workout carbs. Also (which leads to the 2nd part) there isn't particular evidence showing that the carbs reduces MPS either. Whether it makes a fat loss/gain different is separate from muscle growth.

    so going into the second part, its a bit like the 6-8 meals vs 2-3. If something gives you a psychological advantage it isn't a bad thing. Its not necessary, but can be nice.

    My carbs are just as treats, and a few times a week
    This man gets it...lol
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    I won't try to deny that claim, a very large majority of " studies " are financed by supplement companies to increase potential revenue, regardless of actual results... regretfully.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL
    there are some studies that show enhanced perceived recovery / lower soreness along with the post workout carbs. Also (which leads to the 2nd part) there isn't particular evidence showing that the carbs reduces MPS either. Whether it makes a fat loss/gain different is separate from muscle growth.

    so going into the second part, its a bit like the 6-8 meals vs 2-3. If something gives you a psychological advantage it isn't a bad thing. Its not necessary, but can be nice.

    My carbs are just as treats, and a few times a week
    In the end this is a good approach to supplementation, nutrition, and training. it may or may not be ergogenic, or scientifically proven always... but if it gives you that perceived edge or placebo effect while not compromising your financial, health status, or get you in trouble with a PED test, go for it.

    If you know you can hit a lift or perform a feat, you're 100% more likely to accomplish it than if you know you can't.
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    That study is a very well done acute study.

    Does anyone have any evidence why carbs were added in the first place to post workout shakes?
  

  
 

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