Cheat Day?

[buckeyeguy86]

Alright guys. I'm trying to lean out and gain muscle at the same time right now. I feel like my diet is good. Protein shakes pre and post workouts with plenty of kool aid post workout. Plain oats w egg whites later for breakfast. Then tons of lean meat (chicken, tuna, salmon, steak, etc) and veggies w a couple of protein shakes throughout the day. But, my question is about a cheat day. I'm thinking about one every Saturday. Will that derail my attempts to cut too much?

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I think it is essential every week or 10 days.....you're going to be starved for carbs and calories so I can't see one 12 hour period of overeating being counterproductive and putting on any fat. It should be of benefit since it will stoke your metabolism and throw your body a change-up. All those carbs/calories/protein should have an anabolic effect if anything.

 

[tubbednova]

i say try it see what happens,if you gain kick it back to a cheat meal then.

 

[lemke28]

I've been on a cut for 5 weeks now and I have one cheat meal every Saturday night. I usually just eat at golden coral and go to town lol. I just make sure I get all my protein in and then eat everything in sight. I've cut my carbs in this diet and I couldn't imagine going more than a whole week without a cheat meal. I've also read that having a cheat meal every week or so is good because your body tends to start burning less fat when you don't throw it off every so often. Good luck with your cut.

 

[criticalbench]

3 Saturdays a month I stay perfect until 4 pm. Then I go literally balls to the way with food. It only helps me

 

[ssbackwards]

i think it depends on what you are eating

#1: Carbohydrates without the presence of fat contribute very little to denovo lipogenesis (unless liver and muscle glycogen is full when doing it)

#2 MCT oil shows less adiposity over LCTs. So if your consuming fats id make it a coconut icecream (target makes it, fats are mainly MCTs)

#3: Over eating fats and carbs together after a certain amount will contribute negatively.

I suggest either 1 cheat meal. or 1 refeed day with minimal fats.

Other ways to enhance weight loss is a higher fat day (50% MCT and thother 50% LCT ) then 2 days later followed by a lower fat day with higher carbs. Seems to fill you out a bunch more and keep your leptin elevated and decrease adiposity much more then doing one or the other.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

3 Saturdays a month I stay perfect until 4 pm. Then I go literally balls to the way with food. It only helps me

thats what I'm talking about....none of this cheat MEAL bullshyt LOL...I mean really....if you cheat from 5PM till you go to sleep (say 11PM or midnight) how is that different than one big meal? It's like 6 hours of your week for christ sakes. makes no difference and your body has no idea if you ate one big cheat meal or say a big meal and a few high calorie/high carb "snacks" the rest of the night, or ate 2 cheat meals, one at 5PM and another at 9PM or whatever. All those carbs are going to be stored away since you are depleted from the weeks lower carb eating anyways. You can't be pu$$yfooting around like that, be a man

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

i think it depends on what you are eating

#1: Carbohydrates without the presence of fat contribute very little to denovo lipogenesis (unless liver and muscle glycogen is full when doing it)

#2 MCT oil shows less adiposity over LCTs. So if your consuming fats id make it a coconut icecream (target makes it, fats are mainly MCTs)

#3: Over eating fats and carbs together after a certain amount will contribute negatively.

I suggest either 1 cheat meal. or 1 refeed day with minimal fats.

Other ways to enhance weight loss is a higher fat day (50% MCT and thother 50% LCT ) then 2 days later followed by a lower fat day with higher carbs. Seems to fill you out a bunch more and keep your leptin elevated and decrease adiposity much more then doing one or the other.

If you're gonna micromanage the cheat day like this? you take all the fun out of it and I'd just not even bother. Just as I said with the bodyopus diet yesterday....if you micromanage every little tidbit M-F and again on sat/sun recomp....its not something people will want to follow. Make it what it was intended to be....a cheat day free for all (or half day as mentioned previously). Put down the "science book" for a minute

 

[rsnake21]

Can't agree more with war...it's not only meant to give your body a break from strict dieting also your mind. All this sh*t will burn you out if it's 24 7.

 

[buckeyeguy86]

Had my cheat day yesterday and it was glorious! Pizza, chicken tenders, mashed potatoes, ruffles, and some cake. It was fantastic. This morning, though, I really don't see any damage at all. Back on the diet today. Thanks for the input guys!

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I always do pizza for the cheat day....that is the bulk of what I eat.....then later on I usually eat a couple packs of those ramen noodles which are probably the most horrible choice ever for food tons of simple carbs mixed with a lot of fat for a shytload of calories and minimal protein.....also I'll munch on chips or some cookies or whatever at various times in between for snacking purposes. doesn't usually exceed 4,000 cals though for the day. I also make sure to supplement in whatever protein I need to get 200 and some odd grams total. You don't want to totally ignore the protein that day, a few scoops of whey here and there do the trick when added to the protein from the cheat foods.....you want to utilize all those carbs and have protein ready to shuttle into the muscles.

 

[ssbackwards]

its tidious but...

I dont complain eating gushers, skittles, and protein pancakes low in fat and boxes of cereal.

IT depends on how you pick your poison.

1 meal. or 1 refeed day, theres no saying you cant alternate.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

its tidious but...

I dont complain eating gushers, skittles, and protein pancakes low in fat and boxes of cereal.

IT depends on how you pick your poison.

1 meal. or 1 refeed day, theres no saying you cant alternate.

I'm all for being regimented during the other 6 days of the week....counting calories and protein and taking the right supplements at the right time etc etc (although I do subscribe to the "macro ideology" I admit ).....but on that one day, well really only a half day by the time you get around to cheating, that is the time to just say fuq it let me eat what I want....fats with carbs, sugars, candy, chips, cookies, 1,500 cals at once and all that good stuff. To be regimented on that day and that particular time is just taking all the enjoyment out of it as well as the spontaneous fun of eating "bad things". If you're looking forward to another PITA regimen on the cheat day, that is not exactly something to look forward too..which is the best part of the cheat day...saying "I can eat what I want in X amount of days". And if you know your nutrition as you say you do, you know 6-8 hours of overeating (mostly carbs of course) will not and cannot add any fat to you when your carb stores are just about empty from the previous 6 days dieting AND you are about to go on ANOTHER 6 days of depletion. Its just not possible, unless you have not been dieting properly that is.......

 

[JudoJosh]

its tidious but...

I dont complain eating gushers, skittles, and protein pancakes low in fat and boxes of cereal.

IT depends on how you pick your poison.

1 meal. or 1 refeed day, theres no saying you cant alternate.

Protein pancakes?

 

[adnscmplx]

Accomplished some goals in the gym and at work on Friday. Saturday I ate a box of cereal mixed with two things of different granola, a 1/2 gallon of milk, then some ice cream with peanut butter. It was tasty but I was crapping and farting for the rest of the day. I have mixed feelings about cheating. Sometimes I feel worse afterwards.

Next time I may just try to eat 5lbs of steak or something like that.

 

[JudoJosh]

This is why I dont like the term "cheat day"

A refeed isnt a time where you try and see how much food you can shove in your mouth. Yes there is a psychological benefit to refeeds (i.e something to look forward to during the week or a time to eat some foods you enjoy and cant have during the week or etc) but there are also physiological benefits to refeeds (i.e normalizing hormones such as lepitin, ghrelin, peptide yy, insulin, etc).

Refeed days should be structured and yes believe it or not but it is very possible to undo whatever progress you made (WRT fat loss) throughout the week in a single day. Refeeds serves a purpose and it isnt really a "cheat day" as some call it. I like to separate the two into free meals (which is a meal you can truly have whatever you want and is more about the psychological break from dieting) and refeeds (which are a day or two of eating with the goal of normalizing hormones and metabolic rate)

 

[Rodja]

This is why I dont like the term "cheat day"

A refeed isnt a time where you try and see how much food you can shove in your mouth. Yes there is a psychological benefit to refeeds (i.e something to look forward to during the week or a time to eat some foods you enjoy and cant have during the week or etc) but there are also physiological benefits to refeeds (i.e normalizing hormones such as lepitin, ghrelin, peptide yy, insulin, etc).

Refeed days should be structured and yes believe it or not but it is very possible to undo whatever progress you made (WRT fat loss) throughout the week in a single day. Refeeds serves a purpose and it isnt really a "cheat day" as some call it. I like to separate the two into free meals (which is a meal you can truly have whatever you want and is more about the psychological break from dieting) and refeeds (which are a day or two of eating with the goal of normalizing hormones and metabolic rate)

The terms are erroneously interchanged even though they have very different meanings. My refeed is usually some Thai stir fry that I make with coconut milk, chicken, broccoli, tomatoes, mushrooms, and red bell peppers. My cheat meals are usually pizza and beer.

 

[JudoJosh]

For me refeeds usually are lots of potatoes, fruit and rice and free meals (or cheat meals) are usually spent eating out at restaurants with the wife

 

[ssbackwards]

I'm all for being regimented during the other 6 days of the week....counting calories and protein and taking the right supplements at the right time etc etc (although I do subscribe to the "macro ideology" I admit ).....but on that one day, well really only a half day by the time you get around to cheating, that is the time to just say fuq it let me eat what I want....fats with carbs, sugars, candy, chips, cookies, 1,500 cals at once and all that good stuff. To be regimented on that day and that particular time is just taking all the enjoyment out of it as well as the spontaneous fun of eating "bad things". If you're looking forward to another PITA regimen on the cheat day, that is not exactly something to look forward too..which is the best part of the cheat day...saying "I can eat what I want in X amount of days". And if you know your nutrition as you say you do, you know 6-8 hours of overeating (mostly carbs of course) will not and cannot add any fat to you when your carb stores are just about empty from the previous 6 days dieting AND you are about to go on ANOTHER 6 days of depletion. Its just not possible, unless you have not been dieting properly that is.......

I agree with you in the bolded part however...

6-8 hours of over eating (within reason) wont negatively affect how you look. But again who does a cheat day with-in reason.

You will see much better results with what i mentioned, not saying the other doesnt work, just not optimal.

But as i said before carbs contribute little to denovo lipogenesis. In the presence of fats much easier for your body to store anything over what it needs, because lets face it, Fat is already in a form we can store.

so in essence 6-8 hours wont harm you, if your within your reason. If you arent and you consume way to much in both fats and carbs youll see you set yourself back.

Studies show a 70% overfeeding works well to increase leptin.

so if you (lets make math easy) require 1000 cals for maintence youd want 1700. and it wont effect you negatively, but if you need those 1000 for maintence, then consuming 4000 is counterproductive... get what im saying.

 

[ssbackwards]

Protein pancakes?

1/2cup whole wheat flour
1 scoop vanilla protein
2 bags of maple brown sugar weight control oat meal
2 bags maple brown sugar cream of wheat
baking powder
2 eggs
little bit of almond milk to consistency

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I don't go balls out believe me......its usually Pizza and then later some high carb thing I should not normally be eating....along with maybe some chips or other type candy snacks once or twice inbetween. It is usually less than double the calories I normally eat. Say I eat an average of 2100-2200 a day dieting (maybe less or more some days but an average).....and I do upwards of 4,000 the cheat day. No way no how that is of any detriment to dieting, especially since 70% of it is additional carbs. If you wake up at 6AM and eat all day until midnight....OK, that could be of consequence.....or maybe not? but there is a higher probability. To each their own, but regimenting a cheat day is nonsense to me, other than making sure you don't go WAY overboard and/or don't get enough protein that day. Those things need to have an eye kept on them....

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Hey wait a minute, I got all three of my favorite "scientific guys" on here at once......where are my anecdotal peeps at? LMFAO

 

[Frank Reynolds]

My refeeds are 15k calories of high carb, low-ish fat...lol Have touched 20k on a few occasions.

 

[EArch]

Most Sundays I eat whatever I want. Good for your brain and mind.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I think that is the problem here, some of the guys are talking about scientific PHD/Masters degree in nutritional physics (lol) "refeeds", and the other 98% of us just want a goddamn cheat day! a good ol' all american, apple pie, salute the flag with fireworks CHEAT DAY!

 

[JudoJosh]

I think that is the problem here, some of the guys are talking about scientific PHD/Masters degree in nutritional physics (lol) "refeeds", and the other 98% of us just want a goddamn cheat day! a good ol' all american, apple pie, salute the flag with fireworks CHEAT DAY!

Well dont let silly things like facts, science, evidence, etc sway your beliefs. If 98% of the bros are agreeing with you then they are most likely right.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Well dont let silly things like facts, science, evidence, etc sway your beliefs. If 98% of the bros are agreeing with you then they are most likely right.

the moral to that post is this......98% or more of the guys don't care about "scientifically cheating" on a saturday or sunday.....they just want to eat the food that they are normally not allowed to eat. There is no "science" needed in that instance....JUST EAT.....and use a little discretion.....It's always been pretty basic to me, eat bad foods for a 1/2 day of the week and try to focus on carbs and make sure to supplement in some protein if you don't get it from what you cheat with. I don't feel the need to further manipulate my diet for this hormone or that chemical process or whatever.......

 

[MuscleGauge1]

Be careful on cheat days bro. Make sure you don't overload with too many Carbs because it could cause a "refeed" and could disrupt your diet for the upcoming weeks.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Be careful on cheat days bro. Make sure you don't overload with too many Carbs because it could cause a "refeed" and could disrupt your diet for the upcoming weeks.

I like to live dangerously........at least when it comes to carbs on mondays from 6PM till 1AM......I'm just crazy like that.......

 

[bla55]

I like to live dangerously........at least when it comes to carbs on mondays from 6PM till 1AM......I'm just crazy like that.......

DANGERZONE! (any Archer fans out there?)

:lol:

 

[ssbackwards]

My refeeds are 15k calories of high carb, low-ish fat...lol Have touched 20k on a few occasions.

but you have a lower body fat.

The lower your bodyfat the more you can get away with. couple that with a low calorie during the week its ok. your insulin sensitivity and leptin sensitivity is much greater then those with higher body fat.

theres a lot of factors.

but 15k cals, that over 2000g of carbohydrates. id like to see a breakdown of what you eat.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

but you have a lower body fat.

The lower your bodyfat the more you can get away with. couple that with a low calorie during the week its ok. your insulin sensitivity and leptin sensitivity is much greater then those with higher body fat.

theres a lot of factors.

but 15k cals, that over 2000g of carbohydrates. id like to see a breakdown of what you eat.

I understand all of that. Depending on the state of my diet at that time, and other factors will determine how much I take in. Right now, it is no where near that, as I just don't need it.

I follow a similar mindset as you. High carb, fat as low as humanly possibly. I don't pay attention to protein at all though.

 

[ssbackwards]

I understand all of that. Depending on the state of my diet at that time, and other factors will determine how much I take in. Right now, it is no where near that, as I just don't need it.

I follow a similar mindset as you. High carb, fat as low as humanly possibly. I don't pay attention to protein at all though.

ill do half shake in the morning with honey, and then 1.5 scoops post workout with gushers.

getting atleast 1.2g per KG of protein. Based on studies that minimal (well .8 is on keto). After that i goto war on all fruit snacks haha.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

ill do half shake in the morning with honey, and then 1.5 scoops post workout with gushers.

getting atleast 1.2g per KG of protein. Based on studies that minimal (well .8 is on keto). After that i goto war on all fruit snacks haha.

When you are eating that much carbs, it is hard not to get in adequate protein, so I just don't even pay attention to it. I'll typically have some whey with almond milk in at-least one bowl of cereal though, just because I like it.

ss- clear some PM space.

 

[ssbackwards]

cleared

 

[AaronJP1]

I need to learn to cut carbs

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I need to learn to cut carbs

you know me, I keep it between 75-150 max per day for carbs during the week, of course with workouts plus semi-active job as well.....so 4,000 cals with high carbs for one day/ 1/2 day will do me no harm and will only do me good....a few of these guys are just paranoid is all. They let their scientific journals get in the way of "just doing it"....you know doing it the way you feel is right and has been working for ages.....

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

When you are eating that much carbs, it is hard not to get in adequate protein, so I just don't even pay attention to it. I'll typically have some whey with almond milk in at-least one bowl of cereal though, just because I like it.

ss- clear some PM space.

I disagree, I find carb sources absolutely suck for protein sources. I'd like to know what you are eating carb-wise that gives you adequate protein totals for the day? yeah with 15K cals from carbs you'll end up with double or triple the protein intake....but for normal people who overeat for 6-8 hours, I can't see carb foods amounting to enough protein. esp if you are looking for 1 1/2 gram per lb BW......

 

[AaronJP1]

you know me, I keep it between 75-150 max per day for carbs during the week, of course with workouts plus semi-active job as well.....so 4,000 cals with high carbs for one day/ 1/2 day will do me no harm and will only do me good....a few of these guys are just paranoid is all. They let their scientific journals get in the way of "just doing it"....you know doing it the way you feel is right and has been working for ages.....

Ur break is at 230 everyday Bítch?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

you know me, I keep it between 75-150 max per day for carbs during the week, of course with workouts plus semi-active job as well.....so 4,000 cals with high carbs for one day/ 1/2 day will do me no harm and will only do me good....a few of these guys are just paranoid is all. They let their scientific journals get in the way of "just doing it"....you know doing it the way you feel is right and has been working for ages.....

Or maybe they just feel strongly enough in their methods, that they choose to do things in a way they feel they are maximizing their results in every way possible.

To some this may seem obsessive. To others they find enjoyment in being super detail oriented, and living life like their own science experiment. No harm in that.

You clearly believe in your methods, which is why you do what you do.

People should be doing what they feel strongest for. Be it high carbs, low carbs, high fat, low fat. Doesn't matter. Find an methodology you believe in, even if that is having NO methodology at all.

Just be real with yourself. Are you making the gains you could/should be? Are you spinning your wheels? Do you look the same/similar to last year? People tend to have an issue being objective with themselves and their own results. No one wants to feel like what they are doing is wrong, and they are wasting their time.

 

[AaronJP1]

I disagree, I find carb sources absolutely suck for protein sources. I'd like to know what you are eating carb-wise that gives you adequate protein totals for the day? yeah with 15K cals from carbs you'll end up with double or triple the protein intake....but for normal people who overeat for 6-8 hours, I can't see carb foods amounting to enough protein. esp if you are looking for 1 1/2 gram per lb BW......

I agree the only thing I can see if either a weight gainer haha or some pasta, with cheese and meat as in lasagna.....

 

[JudoJosh]

Or maybe they just feel strongly enough in their methods, that they choose to do things in a way they feel they are maximizing their results in every way possible.

To some this may seem obsessive. To others they find enjoyment in being super detail oriented, and living life like their own science experiment. No harm in that....

... People tend to have an issue being objective with themselves and their own results. No one wants to feel like what they are doing is wrong, and they are wasting their time.

reps!

Very well put sir..

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Or maybe they just feel strongly enough in their methods, that they choose to do things in a way they feel they are maximizing their results in every way possible.

To some this may seem obsessive. To others they find enjoyment in being super detail oriented, and living life like their own science experiment. No harm in that.

You clearly believe in your methods, which is why you do what you do.

People should be doing what they feel strongest for. Be it high carbs, low carbs, high fat, low fat. Doesn't matter. Find an methodology you believe in, even if that is having NO methodology at all.

Just be real with yourself. Are you making the gains you could/should be? Are you spinning your wheels? Do you look the same/similar to last year? People tend to have an issue being objective with themselves and their own results. No one wants to feel like what they are doing is wrong, and they are wasting their time.

Oh I agree, I never said "you people" were "wrong"........just that 98% of us don't do it "your way", that is all. Nowhere will you find I said any of you scientific nutrition masters were incorrect. I think your methods are a royal PITA, and I don't subscribe to them.....but never said anybody was wrong. Also, I suppose you make perpetual improvements using "your method"??? I find that hard to believe, before you ask another person if they are making improvements at every turn....I'd make sure you yourself are not "spinning your wheels"....I find it hard to believe in all your years training you never spun your wheels......but then again you guys are scientific geniuses so maybe you DO make perpetual gains/improvements ......

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I agree the only thing I can see if either a weight gainer haha or some pasta, with cheese and meat as in lasagna.....

Pasta is not bad at all, good call....but in order to eat enough of it to get substantial amounts of protein (not just 'hey thats a decent bit of protein' amounts) you need to eat so much of it you'll make yourself sick lol. But yeah, adding some shrimps or meat to the mix will work for sure......

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Ur break is at 230 everyday Bítch?

pretty much, got about an hour or two window around 2PM or so most days. I can post at that time, well 50% of the time at least......Monday is one of my off days though, so i'll be on yo' ass all day today

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I disagree, I find carb sources absolutely suck for protein sources. I'd like to know what you are eating carb-wise that gives you adequate protein totals for the day? yeah with 15K cals from carbs you'll end up with double or triple the protein intake....but for normal people who overeat for 6-8 hours, I can't see carb foods amounting to enough protein. esp if you are looking for 1 1/2 gram per lb BW......

What part of my post did you find confusing? I am speaking of myself, and amount of calories I will get on a refeed, so I am not sure what any other situation and how much protein they can get in, has to do with mine? I wasn't giving a recommendation for every situation.

What I said, and I quote "I don't pay attention to protein at all though." That means I don't pay attention to it. What I get I get. I don't avoid it, or only get indirect sources, BUT I am not worried about it. My main objective is to get in enough carbs to fill me out. My dinners always typically have a decent amount of protein in them however.

I don't count trace protein EVER. FWIW. Only direct sources count towards my totals for the day.

 

[AaronJP1]

What part of my post did you find confusing? I am speaking of myself, and amount of calories I will get on a refeed, so I am not sure what any other situation and how much protein they can get in, has to do with mine? I wasn't giving a recommendation for every situation.

What I said, and I quote "I don't pay attention to protein at all though." That means I don't pay attention to it. What I get I get. I don't avoid it, or only get indirect sources, BUT I am not worried about it. My main objective is to get in enough carbs to fill me out. My dinners always typically have a decent amount of protein in them however.

I don't count trace protein EVER. FWIW. Only direct sources count towards my totals for the day.

On normal days do u count? Do u always try to get your near your bodyweight in protein?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Oh I agree, I never said "you people" were "wrong"........just that 98% of us don't do it "your way", that is all. Nowhere will you find I said any of you scientific nutrition masters were incorrect. I think your methods are a royal PITA, and I don't subscribe to them.....but never said anybody was wrong. Also, I suppose you make perpetual improvements using "your method"??? I find that hard to believe, before you ask another person if they are making improvements at every turn....I'd make sure you yourself are not "spinning your wheels"....I find it hard to believe in all your years training you never spun your wheels......but then again you guys are scientific geniuses so maybe you DO make perpetual gains/improvements ......

Ahh ASSumptions. I actually for this reason have a friend/training partner, who will shoot it to me straight. I am fairly good at being objective with myself, but I too can lose sight of things. It is easy to second guess decisions you make, especially deep into dieting, so it is nice to have a second set of eyes.

If I wasn't making gains, I would change my methods.. Bottom line. I have changed them countless times over the years. I am not above adapting new things I feel strongly for. I am always playing with different things.

On normal days do u count? Do u always try to get your near your bodyweight in protein?

Normal days Protein=protein, fat=fat, carb=carb. I don't count any trace macros at all. I typically stick to sources true to their macro.

No, I get well over my bodyweight on a typical day. My carbs are low day to day, so I keep protein a bit higher, not because I feel I NEED to, but for the calories.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Ahh ASSumptions. I actually for this reason have a friend/training partner, who will shoot it to me straight. I am fairly good at being objective with myself, but I too can lose sight of things. It is easy to second guess decisions you make, especially deep into dieting, so it is nice to have a second set of eyes.

If I wasn't making gains, I would change my methods.. Bottom line. I have changed them countless times over the years. I am not above adapting new things I feel strongly for.

fair enough.....just saying "nobody is perfect".......

 

[Frank Reynolds]

fair enough.....just saying "nobody is perfect".......

You are exactly right. All I am saying is people are going to do what they are going to do.

It is all balance. Give and take.

To you, being detailed on a cheat is a pain. I totally get that. You gotta be happy or all this **** is just worthless. Who the hell wants to be miserable, especially on a "cheat day/refeed"

To me, keeping fat low, is almost automatic because everything I want to eat is pretty low in fat(waffles, pancakes, australian licorice, fruit snacks, etc). It is just second nature, and no effort really. I can tell you right now, if it was miserable for me to be specific on refeeds I probably would just ditch them as well.

And FWIW I am with you on the science thing. Some people are so worried about science, they miss results. You have people who talk all this Science jargon and don't even look like they have seen the inside of a gym. It is like "why don't you go apply the damn science, and show me what it can do!..lol Then you have these big behemoth mother ****ers that you talk to, and it is clear they just have superior genetics, and know nothing. I think most of us are striving to be somewhere in the middle, able to hold a conversation with a knowledgeable person, and have some decent results to back it up.

I like to know what I am doing has some scientific merit, but if I stumble on something that doesn't and it legitimately is working for me, then I stick with it, as results are what I am after.