Lean Gains/IF vs 5 Meals A Day

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    Lean Gains/IF vs 5 Meals A Day


    For fat loss, muscle gains, and strength, which is the better diet plan? I would really like to hear from those who have done both.

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    We have to look at the facts here.As long as you eat enough calories to stimulate protein synthesis you will grow.

    I have tried both.For muscle gain on IF it is impossible to eat a lot of calories if you have a high energy requirement in 8 hours.I eat 4000kcal to maintain my weight so it's not for me.
    I also believe that 5 meals a day is a lot better on blood sugar and to stimulate protein synthesis.It is proven that more frequent meals builds more lean tissue.If you have a problem with 5 meals then try 4 meals or 3 larger meals spaced out.

    I believe on a cut that IF is a hell of a lot better than have 5+ meals.It keeps you full,allows a little bit of leeway with macro's and lets you feel like you can actually eat.In regards to catecholamines suppressing appetite that a subject for debate in my opinion.This entire summer I used IF to recomp and I still had some hunger pangs during my fasting period.It will make you hungry that is for sure.


    I would suggest you try both but I find regular meals makes me more sociable.I don't have a cut off time on when to eat.I don't have to tell friends that I can't go to the movies due to having to eat a massive meal.
    So I look at it like this

    IF-for cutting when you have to go low on kcal(i'm talking 2500kcal and lower)
    More regular meals for gaining mass.
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    Pretty much agree with Roniboney, above.

    I can't stand eating 4k cals in an 8 hour timeframe - I literally feel like exploding. And I did this for almost 2 months before deciding I had had enough of the bloat to continue with it.

    That said I know other people have had tremendous success with it on a cut or recomping. I don't think it makes sense for bulking, and I would rather someone feed throughout the day, whatever that means to him (3 meals, 5, 7, etc) if they're bulking or otherwise trying to put on serious muscle.

    That said, too, it's possible an elite lifter could benefit on IF-type diets on a bulk. Afterall, one can only make 30lb muscle gains a year so frequently before you start to cap out, and judging by the results from those who "bulk" on IF it seems like it'd make cutting easier. I couldn't say as I'm nowhere near an experienced lifter, physiologically speaking.
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    How small are your stomachs not being able to eat that amount of food in 8 hoursI easily consume (veggies included and dressing (balsamic) 3100-3200 calories and I'm still hngry. That's to maintain For a bulk I wouldn't do more then 3-4 meals spaced as far aprat as possible. Leptin and insulin resistance happen more often when eating a surplus and consuming meals before you give your body time to lower the anabolic hormonesIt'll also lead to great fat accumulation and other issuesThose are proven (leptin lowers to normal 4 hrs after meal, insulin 3 hrs after, with a gda 2 hrs)
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    I should note that this is a keto diet I'm using and I have only 2 meals one at 12 and one at 8pmIf I were bulking I'd do a variation and split it 3 meals 6 hours apart 9am 3pm 9am. Fast from 9pm-9amThat would be optimal for minimum fat gain and best caloric intake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    How small are your stomachs not being able to eat that amount of food in 8 hoursI easily consume (veggies included and dressing (balsamic) 3100-3200 calories and I'm still hngry. That's to maintain For a bulk I wouldn't do more then 3-4 meals spaced as far aprat as possible. Leptin and insulin resistance happen more often when eating a surplus and consuming meals before you give your body time to lower the anabolic hormonesIt'll also lead to great fat accumulation and other issuesThose are proven (leptin lowers to normal 4 hrs after meal, insulin 3 hrs after, with a gda 2 hrs)
    Dude when you're in college all day(on the bus at 8) until I get home at 8,train from 8:30-9:30 4 days a week it gets hard to eat 3000kcal in an 8 hour,or less time frame.If you can more power to you but when I did I found I was eating a lot of crappy foods.


    It's a good thing then that I eat with longish intervals then.usually around 6am,11am,1pm,5pm and 10pm.I'll agree with the spacing meals quite far apart.I believe Layne Norton,a natty bb has done a few studies to suggest that this method is optimal for muscle gain due to a higher sensitivity to amino acids with longer spacing
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    Well there's your answer then.Keto using Leangains would be simple.Lots of eggs,bacon,ranch,dressing,fatt y cuts of meat ect......
    I wouldn't want to do it tbh.Cutting on 3200kcal is around what I usually do also.I bring it down over maybe 10 weeks from 3500 to usually just under 3000.The differnce being I never going under 250g of carbs a day

    The problem with leangains arises when your an ecto who has to gain on 4500kcal and eat 500g of carbs,350g of protein and 122 grams of fat.It gets hard.Believe me I tried on 4000kcal this summer eating 3 meals-one at 4,8 and 11:30 .It was very hard.


    Martin Berkham is an absolute appetite monster nad he is used to IF.

    w/e its a trivial matter tbh.As long as you eat in a deficit you will lose weight,as long as you eat a surplus you will gain.How you go about doing that is whatever you think suits you best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Well there's your answer then.Keto using Leangains would be simple.Lots of eggs,bacon,ranch,dressing,fatt y cuts of meat ect......
    I wouldn't want to do it tbh.Cutting on 3200kcal is around what I usually do also.I bring it down over maybe 10 weeks from 3500 to usually just under 3000.The differnce being I never going under 250g of carbs a day

    The problem with leangains arises when your an ecto who has to gain on 4500kcal and eat 500g of carbs,350g of protein and 122 grams of fat.It gets hard.Believe me I tried on 4000kcal this summer eating 3 meals-one at 4,8 and 11:30 .It was very hard.


    Martin Berkham is an absolute appetite monster nad he is used to IF.

    w/e its a trivial matter tbh.As long as you eat in a deficit you will lose weight,as long as you eat a surplus you will gain.How you go about doing that is whatever you think suits you best.
    i whole heartedly agree with last statement, but more frequent meals (especially on a bulk) can cause insulin resistance over time.

    eitherway, 500 carbs is crazy, Fats a better option IMO. To each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i whole heartedly agree with last statement, but more frequent meals (especially on a bulk) can cause insulin resistance over time.

    eitherway, 500 carbs is crazy, Fats a better option IMO. To each their own.



    To your statement on insulin resistance. This was actually touched upon on a t-nation article not to long ago. Was not sure if it was shelby starnes, john meadows...either way they discussed how the frequent meals caused an increase in insulin resistance and how they all are shifting towards a more fat dominant macro ratio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by th3futur3 View Post
    To your statement on insulin resistance. This was actually touched upon on a t-nation article not to long ago. Was not sure if it was shelby starnes, john meadows...either way they discussed how the frequent meals caused an increase in insulin resistance and how they all are shifting towards a more fat dominant macro ratio.
    That makes sense. I've always advocated and employed carb timing anyways, which basically results in only consuming carbs in the AM and peri-workout. So three times a day, twice during periods your insulin sensitivity is way up (breakfast and PWO).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    That makes sense. I've always advocated and employed carb timing anyways, which basically results in only consuming carbs in the AM and peri-workout. So three times a day, twice during periods your insulin sensitivity is way up (breakfast and PWO).
    As an ecto though I'd have to eat a lot of carbs at certains times of the day to do that.Like 160ish grams 3 times a day.I prefer to spread it out between 4 of my 5 meals and to have at least 3 of those meals spaced 4 hours apart.
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    i never read that article on tnation.

    id be interested to see it. Theyre studies everywhere though.
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    Check out Layne Norton's articles on biolayne.com .He studied protein synthesis as the main component of his Biochem degree and saw the correlation of the uptake of amino and insulin sensitivity.He switched to 4 meals after that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    I also believe that 5 meals a day is a lot better on blood sugar and to stimulate protein synthesis.
    I would have agreed with you on this before I started doing lean gains/intermittent fasting but I got my blood tests done August 2010 and August 2011 and my blood sugar and lipid panels showed a world of difference from regular eating to intermittent fasting.

    Heres my post from the Lean Gains thread.

    Back in August I think it was... when I decided to first start a Lean Gains style diet... I went and got my blood tests done. My doctor did not like when I told him how I was eating... hes the traditional 5-6 times a day no more than 500 cals plus snacks kind of guy... (im going to see if I can find my chart quick with my numbers). Anyways I went in 2010 because as a 25 year old male I figured I should start getting my blood tests just to stay on top of any potential problems. My glucose came back at 100 which he told me was pre-diabetic and he wanted to potentially put my on some meds to keep that in check. My response was that I didn't want to be dependent on meds and that I would lose weight and come back. So I came back this august (not really any lighter but a bit leaner from doing lean gains for a month or so)

    08/2010 Numbers - 08/2011 Numbers
    Glucose: 100 - 77 (-23 points!)
    Cholesterol: 152 - 139
    Triglyceride: 56 - 26 (Apparently this number is very low most likely to my use of fish oil)
    HDL: 55 - 61
    Calc LDL: 86 - 72
    Calc Non HDL: 97 - 78

    So as you can see... While it might not be all Lean Gains helping me... it definitely was a large part of dropping my blood sugar not only in to normal numbers but dropping 23 fxcking points! Not to mention all of my numbers went down with the exception of HDL which went up 6 points. And the doc said I have "beautiful" Cholesterol haha

    LEAN GAINS = Amazing if you ask me
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    Those are cool man.I'm glad you actually have tests to show it.

    My stance for me is clear however.I have to eat a lot of food so it just doesn't work for me to bulk.But cutting and maintaining is great.It requires a lot of free time however to track macro's ect...if thats your thing but I'm glad you enjoy the lifestyle.

    More testemonials and anecdotal evidence would be cool to see so lets get some more posts up in here
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    I definitely don't go nuts about macro tracking. I mostly just make sure I'm getting my protein and minimum calorieamt
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt
    I definitely don't go nuts about macro tracking. I mostly just make sure I'm getting my protein and minimum calorieamt
    I'm just started tracking mine. It's an eye opener.
    I'm trying the 40/30/30. This is pretty to easy to hit and they say it stimulates burning fat and muscle growth.

    I've been tempted to try a low carb diet with 25% of my macros coming from carbs but that maybe hard for me cuz I do enjoy carbs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Those are cool man.I'm glad you actually have tests to show it.

    My stance for me is clear however.I have to eat a lot of food so it just doesn't work for me to bulk.But cutting and maintaining is great.It requires a lot of free time however to track macro's ect...if thats your thing but I'm glad you enjoy the lifestyle.

    More testemonials and anecdotal evidence would be cool to see so lets get some more posts up in here
    Odd you feel that way, as this is the exact opposite of what IF about. The entire point is simplicity, and cutting down the amount of time spent dealing with food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    Odd you feel that way, as this is the exact opposite of what IF about. The entire point is simplicity, and cutting down the amount of time spent dealing with food.
    I used IF the Christmas before last and that was awesome due to me not wanting to track macros,but when I used it from April to September I found I was constantly at my computer looking at the backs of food packages trying to figure out macro's.I even tried using pre-set meals but I would frequently add more kcal in in the form of ice cream and porcessed foods.It was totally stupid tbh.

    Having a 7 hour food window as I had a summer job from 9-6 and had to be in every morning at 8:30 to open the place up definately didn't help.

    Like I said I like and will definately use it in the future but I'm not sure its optimal for some people all the time
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    Like I said I like and will definately use it in the future but I'm not sure its optimal for some people all the time
    Nothing is optimal for everyone, all the time that is for sure. I just found it odd that you would run into those problems on IF, when it shouldn't be an issue at all. Macro watching is no different then on a normal layout, if anything it is more forgiving as you only have a small window to **** up.

    And as for the job thing, it would seem eating 2-3 time a day, would be much easier then 5-7. I guess where people get hung up is they(somehow) can't eat big meals. I don't have that issue..lol
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    Bump for more discussion/experiences on this.

    Right now I am in such a dilemma trying to figure out how which direction I should take. For a long time now I've been feeding myself almost every 3 hours or so. I'm not going to lie, my training as been slacking quite a bit but even when my training was at it's best, I was not getting anywhere. Now, more than ever, I am determined to step up and nail this down.

    At this time, my primary goal is to cut BF. Secondary goal is to maintain and/or gain LBM. I've recently just finished up 2 weeks of what I think has been a solid ketogenic diet on LG/IF protocol...and let me tell you, it was hell. The thing I don't understand about keto is how do you know when you are burning STORED FAT and not the fat you JUST INGESTED. I understand that the whole point is to shift your body into using fats for energy but if the goal is to lose FAT, then how do you know when your body is in the state of burning STORED FAT???? I just don't get it. Do you literally have to wait till the fat that you just ingested to be processed first and then it starts using stored fat? I really just do not get it.

    On top of all this, I can barely last 2 sets in the gym which is fckin pathetic. What I'd like to know is how many of you on here have cut while using carbs? See, I don't mind being in a deficit, but what I do mind is not having carbs. Over time I have realized that my body reacts very well to oats. I can literally pound 1 cup in less than two hours and feel AWESOME. Not only that, but the next day I feel even better because of the nutrients it provides for me. On keto, I just don't get how people are getting their fiber intake. There's no way I can ingest X amount of veggies to get the proper amount (25-30g/day). I used flaxmeal because all the carbs in there are all fiber but it was a pain and I still did not feel regular.

    I don't know, I honestly think utilizing a keto diet is only useful when someone is getting ready to compete and they are like a month or so out from the day of competition. Or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I understand dieting takes discipline but I don't think your body should feel this ****TY when you incorporate ANY diet. I mean if you're MENTALLY draining and feeling like death, there has to be something wrong.

    Oh and another thing, I've read on numerous occasions that if MUSCLE BURNS FAT, there's got to be way to use carbs while trying to lower bodyfat, there just has to be. I believe this is the whole meaning of recomping right? As of today, I am bringing carbs back into play. I will start at 2000cals/day, which is already in deficit, with a breakdown of 200g+ protein, 100g carbs, 88g of fat. I will use a LG/IF protocol with carbs ingested primarily during the early part of the window and around workouts. After that, the rest of the cals will strictly come from protein, fats, and veggies. I am going to be doing fasted cardio in the morning as well.

    Sorry for the long read guys, but honestly I've exhausted myself the past 2 weeks trying to nail down this keto routine and it just isn't helping. Heck, I even had 2 refeed days and honestly, I was not able to get into full keto mode after that, it's just been popping up as TRACE on the Ketostix. I have been so obsessed with trying to lose BF that I think I'm forgetting the basic principles and I need to get back to that. If anyone else here has had success with cutting on keto and/or using carbs following LG/IF, I would really like to know how it went for you.

    BTW, I talked to a friend of mine and asked him how he felt about a ketogenic diet while following LG/IF. And he brought up a good point in that it could be pointless because the whole point is to modulate insulin and leptin on LG/IF. I had to sit back and think about that for a while. If anyone can share their opinion on this, that'd be great too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F355 View Post
    Bump for more discussion/experiences on this.

    Right now I am in such a dilemma trying to figure out how which direction I should take. For a long time now I've been feeding myself almost every 3 hours or so. I'm not going to lie, my training as been slacking quite a bit but even when my training was at it's best, I was not getting anywhere. Now, more than ever, I am determined to step up and nail this down.

    At this time, my primary goal is to cut BF. Secondary goal is to maintain and/or gain LBM. I've recently just finished up 2 weeks of what I think has been a solid ketogenic diet on LG/IF protocol...and let me tell you, it was hell. The thing I don't understand about keto is how do you know when you are burning STORED FAT and not the fat you JUST INGESTED. I understand that the whole point is to shift your body into using fats for energy but if the goal is to lose FAT, then how do you know when your body is in the state of burning STORED FAT???? I just don't get it. Do you literally have to wait till the fat that you just ingested to be processed first and then it starts using stored fat? I really just do not get it.

    On top of all this, I can barely last 2 sets in the gym which is fckin pathetic. What I'd like to know is how many of you on here have cut while using carbs? See, I don't mind being in a deficit, but what I do mind is not having carbs. Over time I have realized that my body reacts very well to oats. I can literally pound 1 cup in less than two hours and feel AWESOME. Not only that, but the next day I feel even better because of the nutrients it provides for me. On keto, I just don't get how people are getting their fiber intake. There's no way I can ingest X amount of veggies to get the proper amount (25-30g/day). I used flaxmeal because all the carbs in there are all fiber but it was a pain and I still did not feel regular.

    I don't know, I honestly think utilizing a keto diet is only useful when someone is getting ready to compete and they are like a month or so out from the day of competition. Or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I understand dieting takes discipline but I don't think your body should feel this ****TY when you incorporate ANY diet. I mean if you're MENTALLY draining and feeling like death, there has to be something wrong.

    Oh and another thing, I've read on numerous occasions that if MUSCLE BURNS FAT, there's got to be way to use carbs while trying to lower bodyfat, there just has to be. I believe this is the whole meaning of recomping right? As of today, I am bringing carbs back into play. I will start at 2000cals/day, which is already in deficit, with a breakdown of 200g+ protein, 100g carbs, 88g of fat. I will use a LG/IF protocol with carbs ingested primarily during the early part of the window and around workouts. After that, the rest of the cals will strictly come from protein, fats, and veggies. I am going to be doing fasted cardio in the morning as well.

    Sorry for the long read guys, but honestly I've exhausted myself the past 2 weeks trying to nail down this keto routine and it just isn't helping. Heck, I even had 2 refeed days and honestly, I was not able to get into full keto mode after that, it's just been popping up as TRACE on the Ketostix. I have been so obsessed with trying to lose BF that I think I'm forgetting the basic principles and I need to get back to that. If anyone else here has had success with cutting on keto and/or using carbs following LG/IF, I would really like to know how it went for you.

    BTW, I talked to a friend of mine and asked him how he felt about a ketogenic diet while following LG/IF. And he brought up a good point in that it could be pointless because the whole point is to modulate insulin and leptin on LG/IF. I had to sit back and think about that for a while. If anyone can share their opinion on this, that'd be great too.


    wow long read man.Listen keto is quite over the top if you ask me.You can easily burn fat using carbs.Keto restricts people so much.

    If your using carbs if you prefer more meals a day do that.You don't have to use IF but if you like it I'd go for it.Remember you will lose weight as long as your in a deficit but I will say that there are some insulin benefits with IF that more even meals don't have.Read up on leangains.com and decide if its for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    wow long read man.Listen keto is quite over the top if you ask me.You can easily burn fat using carbs.Keto restricts people so much.

    If your using carbs if you prefer more meals a day do that.You don't have to use IF but if you like it I'd go for it.Remember you will lose weight as long as your in a deficit but I will say that there are some insulin benefits with IF that more even meals don't have.Read up on leangains.com and decide if its for you.
    Keto definitely restricts me too much. Oh and I have already read up on it, which is why I posted in here so that I can get some people's experience on both of them. When I was doing keto the past two weeks, I was actually following it on a LG/IF protocol. My eating window was between 12-8pm. I am going to stick with LG/IF but I'm bringing carbs back into play. I will stick with 2000cals/day broken down to 100g carbs, 200g protein, 88g fat with fasted cardio done in the morning. I'm really hoping the carbs will help with hunger because my goodness, I am starving by 9 or 10am and I can't eat until 12pm. I really believe LG/IF is going to work for me especially since I am trying to reduce BF. I'm going to log my progress in a notebook and I will report back around week 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F355 View Post
    Keto definitely restricts me too much. Oh and I have already read up on it, which is why I posted in here so that I can get some people's experience on both of them. When I was doing keto the past two weeks, I was actually following it on a LG/IF protocol. My eating window was between 12-8pm. I am going to stick with LG/IF but I'm bringing carbs back into play. I will stick with 2000cals/day broken down to 100g carbs, 200g protein, 88g fat with fasted cardio done in the morning. I'm really hoping the carbs will help with hunger because my goodness, I am starving by 9 or 10am and I can't eat until 12pm. I really believe LG/IF is going to work for me especially since I am trying to reduce BF. I'm going to log my progress in a notebook and I will report back around week 3.
    why don't you update us every week in this thread?

    Good luck man.Remember to eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables like brocolli ect....they'll make you feel quite full which as you listed is a problem for you.

    One of my favorite low kcal meals is a stir fry with brown rice.It's fast,very tasty and lower in kcal.Though you could fit whatever you wanted and still lose weight from a physiological standpoint.IIFYM(if it fits your macro's) is all the rage at bodybuilding.com but I'm not convinced its optimal.

    Food for thought I guess.

    Good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roniboney View Post
    why don't you update us every week in this thread?

    Good luck man.Remember to eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables like brocolli ect....they'll make you feel quite full which as you listed is a problem for you.

    One of my favorite low kcal meals is a stir fry with brown rice.It's fast,very tasty and lower in kcal.Though you could fit whatever you wanted and still lose weight from a physiological standpoint.IIFYM(if it fits your macro's) is all the rage at bodybuilding.com but I'm not convinced its optimal.

    Food for thought I guess.

    Good luck
    I plan on using this recipe A LOT. This is practically the only way I can get a good amount of veggies in. I love stir frys. I'll go ahead and update my progress in this thread every week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    Nothing is optimal for everyone, all the time that is for sure. I just found it odd that you would run into those problems on IF, when it shouldn't be an issue at all. Macro watching is no different then on a normal layout, if anything it is more forgiving as you only have a small window to **** up.

    And as for the job thing, it would seem eating 2-3 time a day, would be much easier then 5-7. I guess where people get hung up is they(somehow) can't eat big meals. I don't have that issue..lol
    I have the same issue, too, actually. I don't like eating such large meals, and on top of it found IF to be much more intrusive than grazing (or at least eating throughout the day). This is also mostly because I care more about eating certain foods more than anything else, for instance eggs, and obviously they are easy to prepare fresh at home in the A.M., for instance. And grazing meals take me like 10 minutes MAX to consume, even if they're 1200 calories a piece (been there). Since I don't like/can't eat large meals at a time, IF takes me like an hour or more to finish off - really intrusive.
  

  
 

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