caffeine good or bad for ketosis...again

[kingdong]

I know its been discussed before, but lets just go that route again, sence I didnt really like what I found in the search engine. Is it just me or dose the search engine seem less efficient now?


Oh and yes, the diet is low carb.

 

[ssbackwards]

increases in stress hormones raise cortisol and glucagon and can increase BG. however i dont see it to be an issue. Take some holy basil which can help the glucocorticoid rise in blood glucose and keep you inketosis while maintaining optimum heath

 

[itzDodge]

Better question is why are you doing keto?

 

[Gutterpump]

Sweeteners can possibly spike insulin levels. I'd stay away from BCAAs and Glutamine as well. Coffee could cause an issue but likely not. You can check with Keto stix, not totally accurate but can help to see where you're at.

 

[JudoJosh]

Sweeteners can possibly spike insulin levels. I'd stay away from BCAAs and Glutamine as well. Coffee could cause an issue but likely not. You can check with Keto stix, not totally accurate but can help to see where you're at.

So are you suggesting that one on a keto diet should also avoid protein then since it also will cause an insulin response?

 

[Gutterpump]

No, it's something to do with the ratio and also free form nature, possibly? I'm not totally certain. BCAAs kick myself and others out of ketosis, doesn't for everyone though. I was using Xtend when that happened. It may have a higher ratio of glutamine. There are some threads around here on that issue.

 

[ssbackwards]

and how do you figure this.

First of all the ONLY aminos you should take in on ketogenic diets in free form are leucine and lysine. lysine helps with the luecine absorbtion (i gotta find the study)

and here it is.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/240/6/E712.short

on top of them being the only pure ketogenic aminos and being very aboundant in muscle.

In terms of sweetners, yea splenda can in excess bc it uses maltodextrin

Stevia (reubundaside A or whater its called) can help lower blood sugar

 

[Whacked]

Herein lies the principle issue I have with a straight keto diet

CKD or carb cycling can be used for bodybuilders to get lean but I see straight keto as an EPIC FAILURE.

Keto may have its place in the main stream and especially for sedentary crowd or the pre-diabetic crowd as a viable means to avoid further progression into type II.

For bodybuilding, it can simply be too catabolic for bbers in addition to being to stringent on macro's that support a bodybuilder's overall needs.

I'm a low carber and grow just fine but the key for me is dilligent macro ratio's not avoidance.

Sweeteners can possibly spike insulin levels. I'd stay away from BCAAs and Glutamine as well. Coffee could cause an issue but likely not. You can check with Keto stix, not totally accurate but can help to see where you're at.

So are you suggesting that one on a keto diet should also avoid protein then since it also will cause an insulin response?

 

[ssbackwards]

i find that epic fail a huge issue.

First of all if done right mTOR signaling and protein synthesis can be elevated even enough to grow. people inadvertantly drop cals to low on keto along with misinformed meal times.

3 meals a day high in protein with BCAAS (mainly leucine and lysine) inbetween will inhibit muscle loss. Andketones save muscle tissue, its actually an anti catabolic process the catabolic process is not enough calories.

 

[Gutterpump]

I don't know any bodybuilders who do straight keto. It's all about CKD for most..and if not that, then TKD.

 

[itzDodge]

i find that epic fail a huge issue.

First of all if done right mTOR signaling and protein synthesis can be elevated even enough to grow. people inadvertantly drop cals to low on keto along with misinformed meal times.

3 meals a day high in protein with BCAAS (mainly leucine and lysine) inbetween will inhibit muscle loss. Andketones save muscle tissue, its actually an anti catabolic process the catabolic process is not enough calories.

Keto=Ketarded

Ketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets have no Metabolic Advantage over Nonketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets – Research Review

Title and Abstract
Johnston CS et. al. Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. (2006) 83: 1055-1061
Background:Low-carbohydrate diets may promote greater weight loss than does the conventional low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. Objective:We compared weight loss and biomarker change in adults adhering to a ketogenic low-carbohydrate (KLC) diet or a nonketogenic low-carbohydrate (NLC) diet. Design:Twenty adults [body mass index (in kg/m2): 34.4 ± 1.0] were randomly assigned to the KLC (60% of energy as fat, beginning with 5% of energy as carbohydrate) or NLC (30% of energy as fat; 40% of energy as carbohydrate) diet. During the 6-wk trial, participants were sedentary, and 24-h intakes were strictly controlled. Results:Mean (±SE) weight losses (6.3 ± 0.6 and 7.2 ± 0.8 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.324) and fat losses (3.4 and 5.5 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.111) did not differ significantly by group after 6 wk. Blood ß-hydroxybutyrate in the KLC dieters was 3.6 times that in the NLC dieters at week 2 (P = 0.018), and LDL cholesterol was directly correlated with blood ß-hydroxybutyrate (r = 0.297, P = 0.025). Overall, insulin sensitivity and resting energy expenditure increased and serum -glutamyltransferase concentrations decreased in both diet groups during the 6-wk trial (P < 0.05). However, inflammatory risk (arachidonic acid:eicosapentaenoic acid ratios in plasma phospholipids) and perceptions of vigor were more adversely affected by the KLC than by the NLC diet. Conclusions:KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.
Introduction
Pretty much without fail, every decade seems to see the resurgence of the idea that extremely low-carbohydrate diets have a ‘metabolic advantage’ over carb-based diets; that is the claim is made that the very low-carbohydrate diet will generate more weight or fat loss at the same (or sometimes even a higher calorie level).
Now, before I continue let me say that I have nothing against low-carbohydrate diets. My first book The Ketogenic Diet was about nothing but and many of my dietary approaches often have low- or at least lowered carbohydrate phases to them as they tend to generate certain biological effects that I’m seeking.
As well, research clearly shows that, for some people, lowering carbohydrates can have profound health benefits and in some cases a near removal of dietary carbohydrates (except for things like fruits and vegetables) may be profoundly beneficial.
However, the weight and fat loss claims are a bit trickier. There is certainly an element of truth to the idea that low-carb diets generate more total weight loss but this issue is confounded by the issue of water loss. Between a drop in insulin (insulin causes the kidney to resorb water) and a dehydrating effect of ketones themselves, very-low carbohydrate diets can cause significant water loss.
As I discussed at length in The Ketogenic Diet, water loss can range from 1-15 pounds depending on size (even small individual may lose a rapid 3-4 pounds, of primarily water, in the first days of carbohydrate restriction). This tends to make comparisons of weight loss pretty meaningless. This is even more true when you consider that the difference in total weight loss between low- and high-carb diets is usually only a few pounds anyhow.
However, other recent studies have used more accurate methods of measuring body composition and several do seem to find a greater fat loss for the low-carbohydrate diet compared to the higher carbohydrate diet. Often with the low-carbohydrate diets reporting that they are eating the same (or occasionally) more calories. Aha, a metabolic advantage.
Well…maybe.
I have two primary issues with most of the studies that have been done, one of which I referred to above. That is the issue of caloric self-reporting. The grand majority of studies done to date have allowed people to self-report their food intake and this introduces a staggering number of issues. Because, simply, people really suck at it. Relying on them to tell you how much they are actually eating means not having any real idea as to what’s going on.
The other, potentially bigger issue, revolves around protein intake. In general, and this is especially true if you are comparing a typical very-low carbohydrate diet to a high-carbohydrate diet, the lower carbohydrate diet will contain significantly more protein.
This is simply a function of what foods can be eaten on the diet. Logically, when most of your diet revolves around meat, you will tend to eat more protein than when it doesn’t. But this tends to make comparing the diets problematic for reasons I discussed in the article Is a Calorie a Calorie.
Now, at this point there is little to no debate that higher protein diets have a number of inherent benefits to lower protein diets. Benefits to dieters include increased satiety, better maintenance of metabolic rate while dieting, better blood glucose maintenance, less lean body mass loss and others I’m sure I’m forgetting.
But now we’re not talking about ‘low-carbohydrate diets’ per se, we’re talking about ‘high-protein diets’; that is the comparison is no longer about the carbohydrate content of the diet but about the protein content. In fact, some researchers argue that the ‘benefit’ of supposed low-carbohydrate diets comes from the increased protein intake, rather than the carbohydrate content per se.

In any case, that’s a brief look at the two main issues I have with a lot of the low-carbohydrate vs. other diet research that is out there. Between self-reported food intake (which tends to be all over the map) along with variable protein intake (with the low-carbohydrate diet group usually eating more protein), it’s hard to draw any solid conclusion about what’s actually going on.

The Study
Enter the study I want to look at today; while it’s a couple of years old it does a good job of addressing both of the issues I brought up above (in fact, their introduction and mine cover basically the same exact issues).
Researchers recruited 20 overweight subjects (which they admitted was a small sample size), both men and women and placed them on either a ketogenic low-carbohydrate diet (essentially an Atkins type of diet) or a moderate-carbohydrate non-ketogenic diet (like the Zone and it’s worth noting that Barry Sears is one of the authors on the paper) for 6 weeks. Exercise was not performed.
The researchers examined a number of different variables including fat loss, insulin sensitivity, blood lipid levels, inflammation and energy levels. Resting metabolic rate was also measured.
One nice thing about this study is that the researchers went out of their way to make sure that both diets were equal in both calories and protein (almost anyhow, the very low carb diet was a touch higher in protein). The composition of both diets appears in the table below:
Ketogenic Diet Non-Ketogenic Diet
Calories 1500 1500
Protein (Grams) 125 117
Carbohydrate (Grams) 33 157
Fat (Grams) 100 50
The ketogenic diet was also slightly higher in saturated fat than the non-ketogenic diet (21% vs. 9% of the total calories).

Keto elicits no greater metabolic advantages to the regular calorie restricted diet. It also comes along with a lot of unpleasant side effects...

 

[Gutterpump]

Keto=Ketarded



Keto elicits no greater metabolic advantages to the regular calorie restricted diet. It also comes along with a lot of unpleasant side effects...

Not when it's cycled. It helps a lot of people manager their insulin levels while cutting and really helps with insulin sensitivity. I find it strange how some people around here really don't know much about a cyclical ketogenic diet, the anabolic diet, and glycogen loading. The purpose of going keto for a few days is to super saturate your glycogen stores when carb loading and also become extremely insulin sensitive, while replenishing leptin on a cut.

Like I said before, I've never met one single bodybuilder in my life who does straight keto without carb cycling. I thought this is obvious and super straight forward for anyone with any dietary knowledge whatsoever in the bodybuilding world. I've had my best results recomping whilst on a CKD. Crazy how may people lately don't seem to know much about that diet. The anabolic diet was the biggest thing a while ago, cos it works. IF lean gains diet is the next big thing, but CKD still works well for many people.

There is and never was a place for a strictly ketogenic diet (without carb loading) in the bodybuilding world. Why would you even quote that?

 

[ssbackwards]

I'm going to review that. I kno I've read it befor. A lot of these diets are in untrained individuals which they are right carbs and low calorie is better off due to problems with GIP and leptin

In trained individuals its much diffreent.

Ill take a closer look but I do remember seeing some things in there. I'm pretty sure from what I rmember they didn't do lean body mass

But I'm on my blackberry.

And CKD can cause a rise in cortisol and drop in t levels if not done right. There was a study on low carb diets and hormones not to long back

 

[itzDodge]

Not when it's cycled. It helps a lot of people manager their insulin levels while cutting and really helps with insulin sensitivity. I find it strange how some people around here really don't know much about a cyclical ketogenic diet, the anabolic diet, and glycogen loading. The purpose of going keto for a few days is to super saturate your glycogen stores when carb loading and also become extremely insulin sensitive, while replenishing leptin on a cut.

Like I said before, I've never met one single bodybuilder in my life who does straight keto without carb cycling. I thought this is obvious and super straight forward for anyone with any dietary knowledge whatsoever in the bodybuilding world. I've had my best results recomping whilst on a CKD. Crazy how may people lately don't seem to know much about that diet. The anabolic diet was the biggest thing a while ago, cos it works. IF lean gains diet is the next big thing, but CKD still works well for many people.

There is and never was a place for a strictly ketogenic diet (without carb loading) in the bodybuilding world. Why would you even quote that?

Thats carb cycling bro dawg, not keto, or ckd whatever you want to call it. Carb cycling is fine, keto is not.

Ketogenic diets are maintained for weeks, not for days. They originally began to assist epileptic children with their seizures not for body composition purposes. Just putting that out there, I dislike straight keto diets

 

[Whacked]

One could just as easily argue that an increase in calorie consumption is observed (not a calorie reduction as you suggest) due to the high fat content. For many entering the world of "keto" diets and generally ignorant to any sound/healthy methodology to emply, (take the masses that adopted the Atkins cult-like craze years back), this surplus of calories is ''dismissed'' provided the food choices are derived from fats or proteins and carbs are kept in check.

Given the k/cal exchange alone, from the carbs to fat choices (4 grams to 9), a surplus would be realized in many not wise enough to choose wisely and opt for leaner cuts of meat and to avoid dietary fat overkill.

Sure, one principle argument made is that the satiety gleened from fostering a higher fat diet would work to reduce overall calorie consumption. Again, for the ignorant, this will not work as this merely serves as a license to eat pure fat-riddled filth.

I had a buddy blow up like a balloon in collge back in the day, from eating 3-4 double cheeseburgers NO BUN of course (LMAO) for lunch (as one example). Then, had the audacity to say "this Atkins diet is BS" LMAO

Additionally, let's not discount the deleterious acidic environment that can lead to bone mass leaching, kidney stones, and a host of other catabolic or perilous health issues.

people inadvertantly drop cals to low on keto along with misinformed meal times.

 

[ssbackwards]

N body building there are carb ups. Which seperates it from atkins as well as modificartions to make it more functional

Still a keto diet. Because you do hit ketosis.

Any high protein diet will have parathyroid hormone increase bone loss for calcium

The general keto guidlines are abandoned in bodybuilding to which you aren't grasping.

Leptin isn't decreased all that fast actually. In fact it is moderartly during a fast but even in times of bcaa supplementation its increased.

Leptin isn't all evil as well. You need leptin in the brain to increase whole body lipolysis. Its when its circulating its an issue

Acidic environment isn't an issue when taking calcium, whuich u should be, or when adding in carbs 1x a week. That carb up also reduces chances of NAFLD via reduction of FFA

 

[ssbackwards]

N body building there are carb ups. Which seperates it from atkins as well as modificartions to make it more functional

Still a keto diet. Because you do hit ketosis.

Any high protein diet will have parathyroid hormone increase bone loss for calcium

The general keto guidlines are abandoned in bodybuilding to which you aren't grasping.

Leptin isn't decreased all that fast actually. In fact it is moderartly during a fast but even in times of bcaa supplementation its increased.

Leptin isn't all evil as well. You need leptin in the brain to increase whole body lipolysis. Its when its circulating its an issue

Acidic environment isn't an issue when taking calcium, whuich u should be, or when adding in carbs 1x a week. That carb up also reduces chances of NAFLD via reduction of FFA

 

[Andrew12]

nice sharing

 

[Whacked]

Respectfully, that's blanket statement and not always true.

Here we are again where it largely depends on the bodybuilder. It is just as easy to over-indulge on carbs as it is fat (or protein for that matter which can ALSO become a problem for the true keto crowd, but that's a different issue than the one at hand); thereby disabling one's attempt to enter the coveted land of ketosis.

Compounded by the dynamic that a keto bb'er inarguably becomes more carb-sensitive over time from a cummulative effect of said practice, when muscle and liver glycogen levels are super-saturated from irresponsible carb refeeds/carb intake; lipogenic signaling commences no differently than for a non-keto subject as you know.

Hence, the circulating carbs (largely glucose at this juncture) will spill over and the ensuing glucagon-insulin balancing act persists for days, not hours. From this, ketosis is much harder to achieve. Atkins belabored the principle of Phase I (zero carbs) for WEEKS (not days) for the purpose of entering ketosis for this reason; by virtue of eradicating all "sugars" in the system. Manythat failed, did so b/c they could not get into ketosis largely b/c they were overconsuming protein sources (or of course, were simply too ignorant about macro choidces), but as discussed above, that's a dfifferent discussion for a different day.

Back on topic: While I concur that ketosis has its place, many bb;ers assume they are successfully reaching ketosis, but come up short. God forbid they purchase dirt cheap keto-sticks to assure this state of ketosis, but I digress.

Good point on the parathyroid, but I disagree that high protein diets will automatically lead to issues. No different that one bber's ability to consume 500 grams of carbs per day and (somehow) getting lean, others ingest copious amounts of protein daily without related stresses to their kidneys or parathyroid. You know the drill, genetic programming/dominance trumps most things. That said, I concede your point as I do about calcium and it's role in mitigating acidic responses, but would argue K+ or even citric acid based supps for that matter do well to favorably increase the alkaline/acid balance.

Your statements about leptin are correct to a degree, but somewhat misleading. While it is not the villain, it is arguably one of these most adversely manipulated pathways from (improper) dieting and leading causes for long term metabolic slow down and recalibration of one's daily caloric needs (especially noted in "chronic" dieters). It also plays a role in the release of other potentially helpful metabolic hormones (thyroid and GH to name a few), and as such, only further substantiates its role and one's needs to to best-attempt fat loss methods.

(Carbohydrate-specific) refeeds on keto diets are crucial to ameliorating problematic leptin levels in that they reset leptin levels and one's long term success is related of course. All the while avoiding permanently lower thresholds of maintennance calories. Keeping in mind that universally speaking, no matter the diet employed, the more bodyfat, the more leptin. Conversely, the less bodyfat, the less leptin. That said, acute bursts and decreases are also observed and these can be manipulated to gain an advantage in one's overall success with triggering lipolytic pathways.

I'd be remiss if I did't include information for females followjng this thread. As a rule, women have higher leptin levels due to their naturally higher bodyfat levels but to base any dietary strategies on this would not be prudent as this becomes a strategy of relevance, not just numbers.

With respect to your comment about my ability to grasp, nothing could be further from the truth. LOL

Thank for adding to this discussion; but let's keep it respectful.

N body building there are carb ups. Which seperates it from atkins as well as modificartions to make it more functional

Still a keto diet. Because you do hit ketosis.

Any high protein diet will have parathyroid hormone increase bone loss for calcium

The general keto guidlines are abandoned in bodybuilding to which you aren't grasping.

 

[Whacked]

Again, sound information but painted with too broad of a brush IMHO.

Not trying to split hairs but I think it would be fair to said that this is predicated upon the individual's stress levels. As you correctly stated, excessive cortisol from periods of stress (of any variety), will lead to concomitant releases of both glucagon and blood glucose. Where we disagree is that these elevations consequently do have the ability to throw one out of ketosis, if the levels of stress are high or moreover, chronic.

Nice input on the holy basil.

FWIW: There is a plethora of info on this site and related effective supps for cortisol modulation; many of which are more effective BUT also more drastic in nature. So I am always in favor of more subtle strategies at first.

PS: I appreciate the intellect you bring to these threads. Good stuff.

increases in stress hormones raise cortisol and glucagon and can increase BG. however i dont see it to be an issue. Take some holy basil which can help the glucocorticoid rise in blood glucose and keep you inketosis while maintaining optimum heath

 

[ssbackwards]

Respectfully, that's blanket statement and not always true.

Here we are again where it largely depends on the bodybuilder. It is just as easy to over-indulge on carbs as it is fat (or protein for that matter which can ALSO become a problem for the true keto crowd, but that's a different issue than the one at hand); thereby disabling one's attempt to enter the coveted land of ketosis.

Compounded by the dynamic that a keto bb'er inarguably becomes more carb-sensitive over time from a cummulative effect of said practice, when muscle and liver glycogen levels are super-saturated from irresponsible carb refeeds/carb intake; lipogenic signaling commences no differently than for a non-keto subject as you know.

Hence, the circulating carbs (largely glucose at this juncture) will spill over and the ensuing glucagon-insulin balancing act persists for days, not hours. From this, ketosis is much harder to achieve. Atkins belabored the principle of Phase I (zero carbs) for WEEKS (not days) for the purpose of entering ketosis for this reason; by virtue of eradicating all "sugars" in the system. Manythat failed, did so b/c they could not get into ketosis largely b/c they were overconsuming protein sources (or of course, were simply too ignorant about macro choidces), but as discussed above, that's a dfifferent discussion for a different day.

Back on topic: While I concur that ketosis has its place, many bb;ers assume they are successfully reaching ketosis, but come up short. God forbid they purchase dirt cheap keto-sticks to assure this state of ketosis, but I digress.

Good point on the parathyroid, but I disagree that high protein diets will automatically lead to issues. No different that one bber's ability to consume 500 grams of carbs per day and (somehow) getting lean, others ingest copious amounts of protein daily without related stresses to their kidneys or parathyroid. You know the drill, genetic programming/dominance trumps most things. That said, I concede your point as I do about calcium and it's role in mitigating acidic responses, but would argue K+ or even citric acid based supps for that matter do well to favorably increase the alkaline/acid balance.

Your statements about leptin are correct to a degree, but somewhat misleading. While it is not the villain, it is arguably one of these most adversely manipulated pathways from (improper) dieting and leading causes for long term metabolic slow down and recalibration of one's daily caloric needs (especially noted in "chronic" dieters). It also plays a role in the release of other potentially helpful metabolic hormones (thyroid and GH to name a few), and as such, only further substantiates its role and one's needs to to best-attempt fat loss methods.

(Carbohydrate-specific) refeeds on keto diets are crucial to ameliorating problematic leptin levels in that they reset leptin levels and one's long term success is related of course. All the while avoiding permanently lower thresholds of maintennance calories. Keeping in mind that universally speaking, no matter the diet employed, the more bodyfat, the more leptin. Conversely, the less bodyfat, the less leptin. That said, acute bursts and decreases are also observed and these can be manipulated to gain an advantage in one's overall success with triggering lipolytic pathways.

I'd be remiss if I did't include information for females followjng this thread. As a rule, women have higher leptin levels due to their naturally higher bodyfat levels but to base any dietary strategies on this would not be prudent as this becomes a strategy of relevance, not just numbers.

With respect to your comment about my ability to grasp, nothing could be further from the truth. LOL

Thank for adding to this discussion; but let's keep it respectful.

didnt mean to be offensive.didnt think it was an inability to grasp.

Leptin is a tremendous endocrine hormone but brain levels of it are in the ARC nucleus effect how the body produces NPY and AgRP. Those are the ones causing the hormone problems. With Kidney excreting about 80% leptin leptin causes the high BP, and the sensitivity in adrenal glands causing adrenal resistance. so yes its got its pros and cons. however 500g carbs is a ridiculous amount lol. your pancrease will be working such overtime its crazy especially when eating it in numerous meals.

 

[ssbackwards]

Again, sound information but painted with too broad of a brush IMHO.

Not trying to split hairs but I think it would be fair to said that this is predicated upon the individual's stress levels. As you correctly stated, excessive cortisol from periods of stress (of any variety), will lead to concomitant releases of both glucagon and blood glucose. Where we disagree is that these elevations consequently do have the ability to throw one out of ketosis, if the levels of stress are high or moreover, chronic.

Nice input on the holy basil.

FWIW: There is a plethora of info on this site and related effective supps for cortisol modulation; many of which are more effective BUT also more drastic in nature. So I am always in favor of more subtle strategies at first.

PS: I appreciate the intellect you bring to these threads. Good stuff.

Thanks bro, however holy basil (reason why i used it as an example) strictly lowevers blood sugar by rise in glucocorticoids albeit the ursolic acid in it, but the leaves have hypoglycemic activity.

not the best supplement id rather use something else but it works.

what i was saying is if you can modulate cortisol and sugars during those stressful times then you can stay in ketosis.

Basically ketosis or not, steady blood glucose levels and lower insulin are important. i run keto very diff. i do about 47% fat 47% protein 4-5% carbs.

strict yes. carbs always under 34g (including fiber) and GDAs every meal.

 

[Whacked]

You're a wealth of knowledge but i'm still going to battle you ......

I enjoy your very DEEP and informative posts!

What's your background?

Leptin is a tremendous endocrine hormone but brain levels of it are in the ARC nucleus effect how the body produces NPY and AgRP. Those are the ones causing the hormone problems. With Kidney excreting about 80% leptin leptin causes the high BP, and the sensitivity in adrenal glands causing adrenal resistance. so yes its got its pros and cons. however 500g carbs is a ridiculous amount lol. your pancrease will be working such overtime its crazy especially when eating it in numerous meals.

 

[Whacked]

Ahhh good point on your rationale for utilizing holy basil.

I'm a low carber and it blows. That said, you're a more rigid desciple than me.

God bless ya - those days are long gone for my old behind

Thanks bro, however holy basil (reason why i used it as an example) strictly lowevers blood sugar by rise in glucocorticoids albeit the ursolic acid in it, but the leaves have hypoglycemic activity.

not the best supplement id rather use something else but it works.

what i was saying is if you can modulate cortisol and sugars during those stressful times then you can stay in ketosis.

Basically ketosis or not, steady blood glucose levels and lower insulin are important. i run keto very diff. i do about 47% fat 47% protein 4-5% carbs.

strict yes. carbs always under 34g (including fiber) and GDAs every meal.

 

[ssbackwards]

You're a wealth of knowledge but i'm still going to battle you ......

I enjoy your very DEEP and informative posts!

What's your background?

Nutrition LOL, Graduated from private university. however reading basically got me my knowledge. which is unfortunate bc i spent like 100k on school.

i like actually chatting with someone who knows ****.

there are other factors though that do mediate the rise in leptin. So those cheat meals may not be all that necessary, Just overfeeding in general which is shown to increase t3 after fasting. however overfeeding with fats increased it more then with carbs.

 

[JudoJosh]

Looks like I missed all the fun in here

 

[ssbackwards]

Looks like I missed all the fun in here

still join.

Its fun

 

[Whacked]

Judo's a wise mofo. I hope he joins the thread as well as it's become rather enlightening.

still join.

Its fun

 

[JudoJosh]

still join.

Its fun

Ehh I an too far back.. If I were to go back I would end up with prolly the biggest longest multi quote post ever!

I will try and keep up to date with it from here on though

Judo's a wise mofo. I hope he joins the thread as well as it's become rather enlightening.

So far you guys gave been way over my head in here.. I am not too well versed on leptin that much.. I am the one reading and learning up in here

 

[Whacked]

Neh, 100k well spend buddy. Props.

Same here, reading nerd as well. LOL

Back on topic: I am not a big fan of studies on rats as the results do not always translate to the human model. However, the data can still be extrapolated and utilized with "some" degree of certainty. I tend to subscribe more readily than you that carb ingestion/refeeds (especially noted when in a carb-deprived state like ketosis) demonstrates an adequate acute bump in leptin levels, thus effectively driving leptin in the right direction again. That said, I also recall seeing a study whereby the type of carb source, affects Leptin in significantly different ways. Fructose tends to aggravate the Leptin pathways and can lead to leptin resistance. Not many things worse when trying to diet. LOL

You wisely discussed the elevations in NPY (also directly related to obesity). For conversations sake, should we be surpised that estrogen levels become implicated as well as antagonistic to leptin? Leptin rises can also occur with estrogen deficiency as I briefly hit on in an earlier post. Taking a step back and attempting to unravel this much maligned and misunderdstood hormone, and given the input on Thyoid down-regulation associated with rises on Leptin, only further substantiates the theme here that optimal leptin can play a central role in one's fat loss objectives.

Why the mention of estrogen? I am from the school of thought that modulating excessive levels of estrogen in men is the healthy way to go. Nothing extreme of course. When fat loss is the goal, this only lends itself as one more reason I conistently suggest men who diet to investigate their estrogen levels or supplement with a a safe conservative dose of an AI like "Erase from PES". One more weapon in the arsenal for fat loss.

Nutrition LOL, Graduated from private university. however reading basically got me my knowledge. which is unfortunate bc i spent like 100k on school.

i like actually chatting with someone who knows ****.

there are other factors though that do mediate the rise in leptin. So those cheat meals may not be all that necessary, Just overfeeding in general which is shown to increase t3 after fasting. however overfeeding with fats increased it more then with carbs.

 

[Whacked]

Another very basic yet signigficant argument for playing the leptin game when dieting that has not yet been discussed: your appetite!

Your appetite rises and falls inversely to leptin levels. When leptin levels are low, you’re hungry, and vice versa.

 

[OrganicShadow]

Sweeteners can possibly spike insulin levels. I'd stay away from BCAAs and Glutamine as well. Coffee could cause an issue but likely not. You can check with Keto stix, not totally accurate but can help to see where you're at.

Your body still recognizes it as sugar. I cut em out eventually, and i become picky with supplements with flavors as to how much they contain as well.

In Lyle McDonalds works he mentions coffee being alright but you better take it straight. Obviously the dark roasts are better choices.

"Although caffeine is discussed in more detail in the supplement chapter, its potential effects on ketosis are addressed here. A popular idea floating around states that caffeine raises insulin levels which might possibly disrupt ketosis. As well many individuals find that some caffeine containing drinks, such as diet sodas, can interrupt ketosis.
However, this is contradictory to the known efforts of caffeine ingestion, which are to raise levels of adrenaline and noadrenaline and raise FFA levels. The only way that ceffeine could cause raise insulin would be indirectly. By raising adrenaline and noradrenline levels, caffeine might cause liver glycogen to be broken down into glucose and released into the bloodtsream, raising insulin. This whould only occur prior to ketosis being established, such as after the carb-load phase of the CKD, and would help a dieter to establish ketosis."
The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald, Pg116

 

[MidwestBeast]

Incredibly informative thread.

 

[JudoJosh]

Incredibly informative thread.

Yes it is!!

These guys got me googling leptin now just so I can understand and follow along with the convo

 

[Gutterpump]

Thats carb cycling bro dawg, not keto, or ckd whatever you want to call it. Carb cycling is fine, keto is not.

Ketogenic diets are maintained for weeks, not for days. They originally began to assist epileptic children with their seizures not for body composition purposes. Just putting that out there, I dislike straight keto diets

As do I. A straight keto diet should only be used in extreme medical cases when necessary. Definitely not by choice. Not without refeeds and carb-ups.

Btw, CKD = cyclical ketogenic diet

I have minor blood sugar issues, so bulking, cutting, or recomping on a CKD works really well for me. I'm really carb sensitive. I find it easy to get enough cals on it, without having to eat dirty. Olive oil + coconut oil for extra cals when necessary.

I'm transitioning to a paleo diet though, which is moderate to low carb (without hitting keto).

 

[itzDodge]

As do I. A straight keto diet should only be used in extreme medical cases when necessary. Definitely not by choice. Not without refeeds and carb-ups.

Btw, CKD = cyclical ketogenic diet

I have minor blood sugar issues, so bulking, cutting, or recomping on a CKD works really well for me. I'm really carb sensitive. I find it easy to get enough cals on it, without having to eat dirty. Olive oil + coconut oil for extra cals when necessary.

I'm transitioning to a paleo diet though, which is moderate to low carb (without hitting keto).

Yah I've read a bit into the varying diets especially when I was cutting down last spring but now I just try to make sure I get my proteins and seem to be holding up just fine lol

 

[JudoJosh]

As do I. A straight keto diet should only be used in extreme medical cases when necessary. Definitely not by choice. Not without refeeds and carb-ups.

Btw, CKD = cyclical ketogenic diet

I have minor blood sugar issues, so bulking, cutting, or recomping on a CKD works really well for me. I'm really carb sensitive. I find it easy to get enough cals on it, without having to eat dirty. Olive oil + coconut oil for extra cals when necessary.

I'm transitioning to a paleo diet though, which is moderate to low carb (without hitting keto).

I thought MCTs (such as EVCO) was a no-no on a keto diet?

BTW, Paleo is where it's at bud!

 

[Gutterpump]

Your body still recognizes it as sugar. I cut em out eventually, and i become picky with supplements with flavors as to how much they contain as well.

In Lyle McDonalds works he mentions coffee being alright but you better take it straight. Obviously the dark roasts are better choices.

"Although caffeine is discussed in more detail in the supplement chapter, its potential effects on ketosis are addressed here. A popular idea floating around states that caffeine raises insulin levels which might possibly disrupt ketosis. As well many individuals find that some caffeine containing drinks, such as diet sodas, can interrupt ketosis.
However, this is contradictory to the known efforts of caffeine ingestion, which are to raise levels of adrenaline and noadrenaline and raise FFA levels. The only way that ceffeine could cause raise insulin would be indirectly. By raising adrenaline and noradrenline levels, caffeine might cause liver glycogen to be broken down into glucose and released into the bloodtsream, raising insulin. This whould only occur prior to ketosis being established, such as after the carb-load phase of the CKD, and would help a dieter to establish ketosis."
The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald, Pg116

Good post. For me, using Stevia has been fine in the past, and I've remained in ketosis while using it daily. I'm the same with my supps. I don't like overdoing sweeteners, in fact I'd rather use cane sugar than sweetener in something. I try to only use supps that have stevia when possible too.

 

[Gutterpump]

I thought MCTs (such as EVCO) was a no-no on a keto diet?

BTW, Paleo is where it's at bud!

You're right, I forgot about that! It won't likely kick you out of ketosis, but it will slow down the process of your body choosing which fat to burn over another (somehow slows the process of your body freeing up and burning it's own stored fat). Definitely is possible to bulk on the diet though, just never drain fat when cooking. I don't worry about choosing lean cuts of meat on it either. But now on Paleo, I won't need to worry about ketosis.

 

[JudoJosh]

You're right, I forgot about that! It won't likely kick you out of ketosis, but it will slow down the process of your body choosing which fat to burn over another (somehow slows the process of your body freeing up and burning it's own stored fat). Definitely is possible to bulk on the diet though, just never drain fat when cooking. I don't worry about choosing lean cuts of meat on it either. But now on Paleo, I won't need to worry about ketosis.

I was big on keto diets about a year ago, I swore by them! But now, ever since I went Paleo I will never go back to keto. It just isn't worth it IMO, the rate that I was loosing weight on keto isn't that different than how much I do on a Paleo

 

[Whacked]

We all know BCAAs to some appreciable level can cause an insulin spike, and that Leucine is the main culprit here. So, out of curiousity, I was attempting to research the precise leucine amount needed to elicit a an insulin blood serum rise (mg/dl) that would effectively kick someone out of ketosis and stumbled across this.

Dr Eades (Author of Protein Power), discusses Leucine in this thread.
Not overly uselful but figured I'd pass it along:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/

Here's Mauro DiPasquale's views (Anabolic Diet)
http://books.google.com/books?id=nbR80wOZGz8C&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=leucine+causes+insulin+rise&source=bl&ots=CRejyBQ_9l&sig=UW40zi4teuPyVRZzb7cGfhAEqJM&hl=en&ei=NG2HTuiULoe2tgeep8gz&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=leucine causes insulin rise&f=false

Both authors seem to dance around the issue, or avoid a definitive answer entirely. LOL

More ambiguity:
http://jimmysmithtraining.com/six-pack-diet/ketogenic-diet-for-weight-loss-and-ketogenic-diet-for-bodybuilding

 

[OrganicShadow]

I was big on keto diets about a year ago, I swore by them! But now, ever since I went Paleo I will never go back to keto. It just isn't worth it IMO, the rate that I was loosing weight on keto isn't that different than how much I do on a Paleo

Same. Mentally and physically I respond better to paleo. For me, it just makes more sense- but to each their own.

 

[JudoJosh]

We all know BCAAs to some appreciable level can cause an insulin spike, and that Leucine is the main culprit here. So, out of curiousity, I was attempting to research the precise leucine amount needed to elicit a concomitant insulin blood serum rise (mg/dl) that would effectively kick someone out of ketosis and stumbled across this.

For you strict keto guys. Dr Eades (Author of Protein Power), discusses Leucine in this thread.

Not overly uselful but figured I'd pass it along http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/

Here's Mauro DiPasquale's views (Anabiloc Diet)
http://books.google.com/books?id=nbR80wOZGz8C&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=leucine+causes+insulin+rise&source=bl&ots=CRejyBQ_9l&sig=UW40zi4teuPyVRZzb7cGfhAEqJM&hl=en&ei=NG2HTuiULoe2tgeep8gz&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=leucine causes insulin rise&f=false

Both authors seem to dance around the issue, or avoid a definitive answer entirely. LOL

More ambiguity: http://jimmysmithtraining.com/six-pack-diet/ketogenic-diet-for-weight-loss-and-ketogenic-diet-for-bodybuilding

They give no definitive answer because there isn't one. The whole idea about proteins cause a "spike" in insulin isn't concrete and more of a theory.

BTW have you ever read protein power? If not I suggest you to give it a read. It is by far my favorite nutrition book that I ever read

 

[ssbackwards]

Neh, 100k well spend buddy. Props.

Same here, reading nerd as well. LOL

Back on topic: I am not a big fan of studies on rats as the results do not always translate to the human model. However, the data can still be extrapolated and utilized with "some" degree of certainty. I tend to subscribe more readily than you that carb ingestion/refeeds (especially noted when in a carb-deprived state like ketosis) demonstrates an adequate acute bump in leptin levels, thus effectively driving leptin in the right direction again. That said, I also recall seeing a study whereby the type of carb source, affects Leptin in significantly different ways. Fructose tends to aggravate the Leptin pathways and can lead to leptin resistance. Not many things worse when trying to diet. LOL

You wisely discussed the elevations in NPY (also directly related to obesity). For conversations sake, should we be surpised that estrogen levels become implicated as well as antagonistic to leptin? Leptin rises can also occur with estrogen deficiency as I briefly hit on in an earlier post. Taking a step back and attempting to unravel this much maligned and misunderdstood hormone, and given the input on Thyoid down-regulation associated with rises on Leptin, only further substantiates the theme here that optimal leptin can play a central role in one's fat loss objectives.

Why the mention of estrogen? I am from the school of thought that modulating excessive levels of estrogen in men is the healthy way to go. Nothing extreme of course. When fat loss is the goal, this only lends itself as one more reason I conistently suggest men who diet to investigate their estrogen levels or supplement with a a safe conservative dose of an AI like "Erase from PES". One more weapon in the arsenal for fat loss.

Leptin is higher in women due to estrogen.
Fructose doesn't effects leptin levels
Brain leptin levels determine lipolysis lipogenesis
Agouti related protein ****s with metavoilism which is why calcium supplementation helps due to lowering agouti related protein
Gastric inhibitory polypeptide increases insulin in presence of fat or glucose. Which is why high fat can still increease leptin levels

 

[ssbackwards]

Leucone only increases insulin in presence of carbs just like insulin mimetics

 

[itzDodge]

You're right, I forgot about that! It won't likely kick you out of ketosis, but it will slow down the process of your body choosing which fat to burn over another (somehow slows the process of your body freeing up and burning it's own stored fat). Definitely is possible to bulk on the diet though, just never drain fat when cooking. I don't worry about choosing lean cuts of meat on it either. But now on Paleo, I won't need to worry about ketosis.

They get burned up first and are more rapidly used up as they can bypass a large part of the GI tract long chain fatty acids can not.

 

[ssbackwards]

They get burned up first and are more rapidly used up as they can bypass a large part of the GI tract long chain fatty acids can not.

Its digested as a carb/protein thru portal circulation opposed to lymph which long chain fats go through.

It ****s with metabolism as recognized as a different energy sustrate. and can thus throw you out of ketosis if not planned carefully like preworkout with some long chain fats or after a cheat meal to help create ketones faster before shifting to longer chain fats.

 

[dirty321]

Wow! I have done a low carb diet a few times and I didn't find it very hard to loose weight. I don't lift much and I haven't ever really attempted to build mass I simply wanted to loose weight. Is there a more effective way I should be going about loosing weight? Could it have been faster based on what I have read here or does this stuff just relate mostly to building mass while on a Keto diet? I am a student that also works full time so I do have a stressful life but It seamed like I lost an average of about 15 lbs in about 2-3 weeks while on a Keto diet. The only thing I hate about the Atkins plan is that the food you get to eat is so boring.

 

[Gutterpump]

Alot of that weight is only water weight that people lose in the initial week(s) on a keto diet.

Carbo(hydrate)s, glycogen stores water in your body.

 

[MAxximal]

Keto=Ketarded


Keto elicits no greater metabolic advantages to the regular calorie restricted diet. It also comes along with a lot of unpleasant side effects...

Ketones are the fuel fetal development if you not know this fact so thanks to this now you are here