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    The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log


    While I am in no way taking credit for bringing this diet to AnabolicmMinds, I am sure others have but I feel that this partitcular dietary strategy need more exposure here. It had expansive threads at other forums but I want to see one done Anabolic Minds style with the intelligent people and everyone willing to help each other more here than just saying "Got Search?"

    Trying to search for the two words Lean and Gains on a bodybuilding based forum is like searching for a red neck in Texas. You are gonna have to sift though a lot to find the one you want...

    SO with that being said let me give you a little background. Martin Berkhan designed this specific Intermittent Fasting protocal and has been able to remain around 5.5% since 2007 and has helped many acheive the same. His diet is about being able to gain lean muscle mass while simultaneously dropping bodyfat or gaining LBM without gaining bodyfat. The method is via intermittent fast in which the person does not eat for 165 hours out of the day and then gets in the required calories for acheiving their goal within an 8 hour feeding window. This allow a lotmore freedom in what you can eat because nutrient dense foods are a must to get in your caloric needs within that window. This dietary stategy aslo addresses insulin sensitivity and leptin issues that can drastically accellerate how quickly you can lose body fat.

    To find out more about the basic set up read this article copied from this link.
    The Leangains Guide | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health




    Share It's about time I compiled a comprehensive guide to my system, so here it is.

    Intermittent fasting and Leangains

    How does Leangains differentiate itself from some other intermittent fasting based diets? Here's a brief primer.


    The basics

    In-depth coverage of my approach, and the benefits of intermittent fasting, can be read about here.

    A much shorter summary can be found here.


    Fasting and feeding

    My general position on the fasted phase is that it should last through the night and during the morning hours. Ideally the fast should then be broken at noon or shortly thereafter if you arise at 6-7 AM like most people. Afternoons and evenings are usually spent in the fed state.

    However, the fast could also also be broken later in the day depending on your personal preferences and daily routine. I personally tend to break the fast as late as 4-6 PM since I work well into the night and rise later than most people with normal jobs.

    The recommendation for fasting through the earlier part of the day, as opposed to the latter part of the day, is for behavioral and social reasons. Most people simply find it easier to fast after awakening and prefer going to bed satiated. Afternoons and evenings are times to unwind and eat. For adherence reasons during dieting, I've also found that placing the feeding phase later in the day is ideal for most people.


    The protocols

    I work with four different protocols depending on when my clients train. Depending on setup, one, two, or three meals are eaten in the post-workout period.


    Fasted training

    Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase. Technically, training is not completely fasted - that would be detrimental. The pre-workout protein intake, with its stimulatory effect on protein synthesis and metabolism, is a crucial compromise to optimize results. The 8-hour feeding phase starts with the post-workout meal.

    Sample setup

    11.30-12 AM or 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA
    12-1 PM: Training
    1 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal of the day).
    4 PM: Second meal.
    9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

    Calories and carbs are tapered down throughout the day in the example above.


    Early morning fasted training

    Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later. Read this for details regarding this protocol.

    6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.
    6-7 AM: Training.
    8 AM: 10 g BCAA.
    10 AM: 10 g BCAA
    12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.
    8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

    For the sake of conveniency, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand recommendations.


    One pre-workout meal

    This is the most common setup for my younger clients that are still in college or have flexible working hours.

    Sample setup

    12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Pre-workout meal. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.
    3-4 PM: Training should happen a few hours after the pre-workout meal.
    4-5 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).
    8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.


    Two pre-workout meals

    This is the usual protocol for people with normal working hours.

    Sample setup

    12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Meal one. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.
    4-5 PM: Pre-workout meal. Roughly equal to the first meal.
    8-9 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).


    Key points

    * No calories are to be ingested during the fasted phase, though coffee, calorie free sweeteners, diet soda and sugar free gum are ok (even though they might contain trace amount of calories). A tiny splash of milk in your coffee wonít affect anything either (Ĺ-1 teaspoon of milk per cup at the most - use sparingly and sensibly if you drink a lot of coffee). Neither will sugar free gum in moderation (~20 g).

    * The fast is the perfect time to be productive and get things done. Donít sit around, get bored and brood about food.

    * Meal frequency during the feeding phase is irrelevant. However, most people, including me, prefer three meals.

    * The majority of your daily calorie intake is consumed in the post-workout period. Depending on setup, this means that approximately 95-99% (fasted training), 80% (one pre-workout meal) or 60% (two pre-workout meals) of your daily calorie intake is consumed after training.

    * The feeding window should be kept somewhat constant due to the hormonal entrainment of meal patterns. We tend to get hungry when we're used to eating and maintaining a regular pattern makes diet adherence easier. If you're used to breaking the fast at 12-2 PM and ending it at 8-10 PM, then try to maintain that pattern every day.

    * On rest days, meal one should ideally be the largest meal, as opposed to training days where the post-workout meal is the largest meal. A good rule of thumb is to make meal one on rest days at least 35-40% of your daily calorie intake. This meal should be very high in protein; some of my clients consume more than 100 g of protein in this meal.

    * When working with clients I am always open to compromising on the above rule. If your preference is to eat a larger meal in the evening instead of noon, or whenever you break the fast, it's no great harm. Some people prefer to save the largest meal on rest days for dinner with their family instead of having a large lunch and that's fine by me if it makes them enjoy and adhere to their diet better.

    * Macronutrients and calorie intakes are always cycled through the week. The specifics depends on the client's ultimate goal: fat loss, muscle gain or bodyrecomposition. The details will be revealed in the book. Generally speaking, carbs and total calorie intake is highest on training days. On rest days, carbs are lower and fat is higher. Protein is kept high on all days.

    * Here are the supplements I recommend everyone to take on a daily basis: a multivitamin, fish oil, vitamin D and extra calcium (unless dairy is consumed on a regular and daily basis).

    * For fasted training, BCAA or an essential amino acid mixture is highly recommended. However, if this feels like too much micromanaging or simply questionable from an economic standpoint, you could also make due with some whey protein. The importance of protein intake prior to fasted training is outlined in this and this post.

    * People sometimes ask me which protocol is best. I tend to look at things from a behavioral perspective first and foremost, so my reply to that is to choose the protocol best suited to your daily routine and training preferences. When dealing with clients I make the choice for them. If you work a 9-5 job and your only option is to train after work, training fasted is generally a bad idea and I always choose the one or two meals pre-workout protocol.

    * Even from a physiological perspective, each protocol has it's own strengths and theoretical benefits. With "physiological perspective" I mean in terms of nutrient partitioning, fat loss and muscle growth. This deserves an article on it's own. I have some interesting and compelling arguments that I think are very unique.

    Below I'll list some other resources that I think will give you an idea of what Leangains is all about.


    Diet methodology

    Calories, foods and macronutrient choices play an important role in the optimal diet. The following articles will give you an insight into my philosophy on this topic.

    Scorch Through Your Fat Loss Plateau

    Maintaining Low Body Fat

    Intermittent Fasting, Set-Point and Leptin


    Diet psychology

    The right mental attitude is a crucial factor for a successful diet and training routine. This is an area that is all too often overlooked. I've explored this subject through many different perspectives.
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    Useful links



    http://examine.com/leangains-faq/ Brand new Lean Gains FAQ -thanks for the link QUIL!!!

    http://doubleyourgains.com/musclebuildingmastermind/The_Leangains_Approach_Final.p df


    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/fas...le-growth.html

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top...-debunked.html

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/tru...nd-muscle.html

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/int...point-and.html

    Those are just a few of the many blogs he has posted on the subject. Anyone with any experience in Lean Gains, Warrior Diet, and or any other type of Intermittent Fasting Protocal get in here and let's talk about the benefits of these types of diets and what we are learning from them. I am having tremendous success in using them so far.
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    Great info Kleen... You the MAN!
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    Oh man, I love LG -- probably read every post on that blog three times!

    And you're right, there's not much exposure here. However, I suspect that might have something to do with the growing number of elitists who know absolutely everything there is to know about anything remotely related to nutrition, exercise, dieting, etc. and won't even consider any information that appears the slightest bit contradictory to their preconceptions.

    That being said, the LG concepts were revolutionary for me -- I've been really successful applying the information he's put forth.

    How long have you been on it Kleen?
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    Great post, Kleen.

    I've been doing this for a couple weeks, now. I unfortunately haven't seen much from it, but that's due to other issues. I really like the concept, though, because I can take my Synthroid first thing in the morning and not worry about eating breakfast too closely to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Oh man, I love LG -- probably read every post on that blog three times!

    And you're right, there's not much exposure here. However, I suspect that might have something to do with the growing number of elitists who know absolutely everything there is to know about anything remotely related to nutrition, exercise, dieting, etc. and won't even consider any information that appears the slightest bit contradictory to their preconceptions.

    That being said, the LG concepts were revolutionary for me -- I've been really successful applying the information he's put forth.

    How long have you been on it Kleen?
    I have been on for 3 months now and have made some sick changes to my physique. Although some muscle memory I turned a cut into a recomp then more aggressive recomp t a lean gain and not going to cut a little more all in that time and each change I made was seemless and evident with in 1 week of the changes. I am using as a lifestyle diet right now in otherwords estimating my needs and changing up my feeding based on the mirror and where my goals are. I love that you eat for whatever your goal is that moment. That day one day can be all cutting and the next all about bulk and it is so seemless and effective. The naysayers are welcome to this thread ONLY if they are willing to have an openminded discussion and not come in ready to flame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Great post, Kleen.

    I've been doing this for a couple weeks, now. I unfortunately haven't seen much from it, but that's due to other issues. I really like the concept, though, because I can take my Synthroid first thing in the morning and not worry about eating breakfast too closely to it.
    MB -- if you don't answering, I've always been a little concerned with hypothyroidism. Assuming you take Synthroid to treat hypothyroidism (correct?) how did you initially figure out that you had the disorder?
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    I am 9 days in and completely sold, I had just finished losing 32 lbs on a cut where I was down to 2000 cals a day. I decided to continue to recomp using lean gains so I went to 2800 cals wod's and 2500 nwd's and was loving the freedom. About 5 days in I say to myself I still seem to be getting leaner. 7 days in and I was pretty much convinced and now I am going go right out and say it, I am losing just as fast as I was at 2000 cals fat wise, and get this... I am doing 4 hours a week less cardio!!! Here's my log I not it's hard to swallow but .. it be!!

    Going to be a swole recovery.... with Lean Gains
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I have been on for 3 months now and have made some sick changes to my physique. Although some muscle memory I turned a cut into a recomp then more aggressive recomp t a lean gain and not going to cut a little more all in that time and each change I made was seemless and evident with in 1 week of the changes. I am using as a lifestyle diet right now in otherwords estimating my needs and changing up my feeding based on the mirror and where my goals are. I love that you eat for whatever your goal is that moment. That day one day can be all cutting and the next all about bulk and it is so seemless and effective. The naysayers are welcome to this thread ONLY if they are willing to have an openminded discussion and not come in ready to flame.
    Ah very nice; totally agree with you on regarding LG as a lifestyle diet. At times it seems too easy -- ya know? Maybe that's just because low-CHO and low-cal left so much to be desired.

    Prior to this, I used scheduled cheat days (which were actually successful) during cuts -- but now I never feel the need to eat like that given the range of foods you can consume and the frequency (roughly every other day) to get those delicious carbs in.

    Do you make the protein fluff he sort of pioneered? I make that sh*t once or twice a day on a cut and it's just perfect.
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    Good stuff
    NSCA - CSCS
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    I havent made it yet but I have every intention of it very soon. I can't wait for a bulk to do a cheesecake mastery or steak mastery day!!!! So How long have you been doing it Red Dog?

    I do agree sometimes it just feels too easy. My caloric ranges are about 1500-2000, and 2500-3300 really just depends on how I feel. I always get my protein in and a decent amount of fats. Keep carbs between 75 and 150 on cardio days and up to 300 on workout days. Very depending on how I feel or look that day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I havent made it yet but I have every intention of it very soon. I can't wait for a bulk to do a cheesecake mastery or steak mastery day!!!! So How long have you been doing it Red Dog?

    I do agree sometimes it just feels too easy. My caloric ranges are about 1500-2000, and 2500-3300 really just depends on how I feel. I always get my protein in and a decent amount of fats. Keep carbs between 75 and 150 on cardio days and up to 300 on workout days. Very depending on how I feel or look that day.
    I don't vary as much with the Macros, I think you just have to find your range and stick with it, adjust it based on goals...
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    Subbed in for an epic thread! I'm on LG now, been on for a few weeks, and it's great! A lot of freedom in eating during my window, and staying lean!

    I workout in the morning (6AM), so it was a concern that I wouldn't get a post-workout shake in until 4-6 hours later, but that doesn't seem to be a problem yet! BCAA are a must though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Subbed in for an epic thread! I'm on LG now, been on for a few weeks, and it's great! A lot of freedom in eating during my window, and staying lean!

    I workout in the morning (6AM), so it was a concern that I wouldn't get a post-workout shake in until 4-6 hours later, but that doesn't seem to be a problem yet! BCAA are a must though!
    Amen, I do my training between 4:30-5:45AM so no time for anything but some aminos about 4:00 and some every 2 hours beyond until I break my fast. I also find that s shorter eating window is not a problem anymore for me. I can get my cals in 6 hours if needed. On cardio days if I am feeling a low day I may only have 2 meals getting me to 1500-1700 cals and be done. If I am not hungry I just don't add the last meal in or just have some cottage cheese.
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    I more or less do this naturally, but I do feed through the morning rather than starting at noon. I may give it a shot changing the eat hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Amen, I do my training between 4:30-5:45AM so no time for anything but some aminos about 4:00 and some every 2 hours beyond until I break my fast. I also find that s shorter eating window is not a problem anymore for me. I can get my cals in 6 hours if needed. On cardio days if I am feeling a low day I may only have 2 meals getting me to 1500-1700 cals and be done. If I am not hungry I just don't add the last meal in or just have some cottage cheese.
    LOL, I just had 2k calories for lunch! Easy to get those dense nutrients in!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I more or less do this naturally, but I do feed through the morning rather than starting at noon. I may give it a shot changing the eat hours.
    So do you typically eat in the morning for about 8 hours then fast at night? Is it due to training or job schedule or just preference? I thought about just doing my eating in the morning after my training but that would leave a lot of waking hours for hunger to kick in plus would not allow me to eat any kind of dinner with the family.
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    It just sort of works out that way. I work out first thing in the morning fasted, have my first meal after at 9am or so, and dinner is usually by 6 (so 9 hours really) and I generally don't eat anything after that. But I haven't been religious about it, so sometimes have a snack. But I may give the not eating PWO and just waiting till noonish to start eating. Cant hurt
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    No definitely not. Just add in the aminos post workout. I bet you will see some recomp from changing the feeding time.
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    In for the info
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    Subbed for some good info
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    I'm a LeanGains follower as well. I typically train in the morning around 8-9 am, fasted with BCAA's then eat until 3-5 pm, depending on the day. Sometimes I have things going on in the evening that interrupt when I'd like to be eating, so I try to get the calories in earlier. I notice the most pronounced changes when cutting weight. While trying to hold or gain, it's difficult to see changes happening for me, but I still feel like it's better than a typical eating setup. Also, I could be wrong because I don't always keep an accurate calorie count, but I feel like it's taking a lot more calories to hold my weight or bulk now, which is good and bad, I suppose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRock View Post
    I'm a LeanGains follower as well. I typically train in the morning around 8-9 am, fasted with BCAA's then eat until 3-5 pm, depending on the day. Sometimes I have things going on in the evening that interrupt when I'd like to be eating, so I try to get the calories in earlier. I notice the most pronounced changes when cutting weight. While trying to hold or gain, it's difficult to see changes happening for me, but I still feel like it's better than a typical eating setup. Also, I could be wrong because I don't always keep an accurate calorie count, but I feel like it's taking a lot more calories to hold my weight or bulk now, which is good and bad, I suppose.
    I think you're right, I am losing more than I have any business to lose based on the caloiries I take in, and I am meticulous right now... It's really good news for guys like me. God knows how much I will have to eat to maintain...

    I notice you break your fast late, it might be easier to fit more calls in if you broke it earlier... I break mine at 12 noon and the results are very good still...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRock View Post
    I'm a LeanGains follower as well. I typically train in the morning around 8-9 am, fasted with BCAA's then eat until 3-5 pm, depending on the day. Sometimes I have things going on in the evening that interrupt when I'd like to be eating, so I try to get the calories in earlier. I notice the most pronounced changes when cutting weight. While trying to hold or gain, it's difficult to see changes happening for me, but I still feel like it's better than a typical eating setup. Also, I could be wrong because I don't always keep an accurate calorie count, but I feel like it's taking a lot more calories to hold my weight or bulk now, which is good and bad, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I think you're right, I am losing more than I have any business to lose based on the caloiries I take in, and I am meticulous right now... It's really good news for guys like me. God knows how much I will have to eat to maintain...

    I notice you break your fast late, it might be easier to fit more calls in if you broke it earlier... I break mine at 12 noon and the results are very good still...
    Going from what he wrote I think he is eating from post training all the way up until between 3 and 5:00 PM. Not waiting to get the food in until then.

    I have definitely noticed I can eat more but not a ton more than before. However I feel optimized at about 500 cals over my normal intakes in a lot of ways. I do well eating big on lifting days and much lighter on off days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    MB -- if you don't answering, I've always been a little concerned with hypothyroidism. Assuming you take Synthroid to treat hypothyroidism (correct?) how did you initially figure out that you had the disorder?
    Well, to be honest, I always had trouble losing weight despite eating pretty good (most of the time) and being incredibly active. I heard the "that's just your frame" etc. comments my whole life and pretty much just accepted it for a while. In June of 2009, I started specifically bodybuilding (after almost 10 years of lifting - 4 for baseball and then 6 on my own after ball was over). Since that time, I've spent TONS of time learning/understanding nutrition and living an overall cleaner lifestyle as well as working out like a bodybuilder.

    It was still like pulling teeth just to lose a pound. I was at my best around May of last year and after my first cheat meal in over a month, I couldn't seem to shed that weight back down. My friend suggested I try to bulk for a while as I'd tried to cut for essentially my whole life while lifting. So, I bulked for about 6-7 weeks and put on about 24 lbs (some decent muscle, but obviously a lot of fat). That was at about 3500 cals/day, clean and working out a lot, btw. Since then, I couldn't seem to drop down at all.

    In January, I started a keto diet and calorie cycling. 2-a-day workouts each day, double cardio twice, lifting the other 5 (cardio in AM). After the first 6 lbs or so I lost due to glycogen, I slowly started adding a pound or so every couple days, steadily. I finally gave up because I'd tried everything and I went and had blood tests ran. While researching for them, I thought elevated TSH sounded right and sure enough, that was it.

    So, that's how I found out. I've likely had this my whole life, but just dealt with it (working out, weighing 200+ lbs and eating like 2000 calories/day regularly and not even losing weight).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Going from what he wrote I think he is eating from post training all the way up until between 3 and 5:00 PM. Not waiting to get the food in until then.

    I have definitely noticed I can eat more but not a ton more than before. However I feel optimized at about 500 cals over my normal intakes in a lot of ways. I do well eating big on lifting days and much lighter on off days.
    yah and I believe that is because you lift in the AM, makes sense. I lift late afternoon so I still need cals the next day so my difference is not as pronounced. Plus you like to experiment Things are going so well for me right now and like still having arournd 2400 to 2500 on off days or just cardio days...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I havent made it yet but I have every intention of it very soon. I can't wait for a bulk to do a cheesecake mastery or steak mastery day!!!! So How long have you been doing it Red Dog?

    I do agree sometimes it just feels too easy. My caloric ranges are about 1500-2000, and 2500-3300 really just depends on how I feel. I always get my protein in and a decent amount of fats. Keep carbs between 75 and 150 on cardio days and up to 300 on workout days. Very depending on how I feel or look that day.
    haha I haven't done cheesecake mastery yet either! But the fluff is so much more filling than a shake; I never wait long enough to let it fluff up properly though because I only have a hand mixer to utilize which blows.

    I've been using the concepts for about 8 weeks but had been tending to eat way more at night than I did during the morning and day for quite awhile before stumbling across LG.

    Your carbohydrate intake is really similar to mine as well and your calories are just a little higher, but you're also carrying more mass than I am in addition to me being on a cut -- very interesting! Being able to enjoy this level of carbohydrate intake every other day and still lose fat is ideal.

    This is actually kind of cool because yourself and some others here (JohnRock, Easy) lift early in the AM while I lift quite late in the PM (almost always begin between 7PM and 8PM) and take in all my calories in the hours immediately before sleeping; but even in this scenario the fat is coming off nicely while strength is slowly (but definitively) increasing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Well, to be honest, I always had trouble losing weight despite eating pretty good (most of the time) and being incredibly active. I heard the "that's just your frame" etc. comments my whole life and pretty much just accepted it for a while. In June of 2009, I started specifically bodybuilding (after almost 10 years of lifting - 4 for baseball and then 6 on my own after ball was over). Since that time, I've spent TONS of time learning/understanding nutrition and living an overall cleaner lifestyle as well as working out like a bodybuilder.

    It was still like pulling teeth just to lose a pound. I was at my best around May of last year and after my first cheat meal in over a month, I couldn't seem to shed that weight back down. My friend suggested I try to bulk for a while as I'd tried to cut for essentially my whole life while lifting. So, I bulked for about 6-7 weeks and put on about 24 lbs (some decent muscle, but obviously a lot of fat). That was at about 3500 cals/day, clean and working out a lot, btw. Since then, I couldn't seem to drop down at all.

    In January, I started a keto diet and calorie cycling. 2-a-day workouts each day, double cardio twice, lifting the other 5 (cardio in AM). After the first 6 lbs or so I lost due to glycogen, I slowly started adding a pound or so every couple days, steadily. I finally gave up because I'd tried everything and I went and had blood tests ran. While researching for them, I thought elevated TSH sounded right and sure enough, that was it.

    So, that's how I found out. I've likely had this my whole life, but just dealt with it (working out, weighing 200+ lbs and eating like 2000 calories/day regularly and not even losing weight).
    Basically exhausted every avenue, it's tough for me too and you know the extremes I have undergone to shed weight, but it does come off.. This is much easier so far though...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Well, to be honest, I always had trouble losing weight despite eating pretty good (most of the time) and being incredibly active. I heard the "that's just your frame" etc. comments my whole life and pretty much just accepted it for a while. In June of 2009, I started specifically bodybuilding (after almost 10 years of lifting - 4 for baseball and then 6 on my own after ball was over). Since that time, I've spent TONS of time learning/understanding nutrition and living an overall cleaner lifestyle as well as working out like a bodybuilder.

    It was still like pulling teeth just to lose a pound. I was at my best around May of last year and after my first cheat meal in over a month, I couldn't seem to shed that weight back down. My friend suggested I try to bulk for a while as I'd tried to cut for essentially my whole life while lifting. So, I bulked for about 6-7 weeks and put on about 24 lbs (some decent muscle, but obviously a lot of fat). That was at about 3500 cals/day, clean and working out a lot, btw. Since then, I couldn't seem to drop down at all.

    In January, I started a keto diet and calorie cycling. 2-a-day workouts each day, double cardio twice, lifting the other 5 (cardio in AM). After the first 6 lbs or so I lost due to glycogen, I slowly started adding a pound or so every couple days, steadily. I finally gave up because I'd tried everything and I went and had blood tests ran. While researching for them, I thought elevated TSH sounded right and sure enough, that was it.

    So, that's how I found out. I've likely had this my whole life, but just dealt with it (working out, weighing 200+ lbs and eating like 2000 calories/day regularly and not even losing weight).
    Wow, that sounds tremendously frustrating. Thanks for explaining; I just wanted a firsthand account cause Wiki and WebMD are only so useful in identifying the actual experience someone endures that leads to something like hypothyroidism being diagnosed.

    I originally asked because occasionally I'll hear people who have plateaued or incorporated some ****ty methodologies into their routine talk about how they are concerned with hypothyroidism because their fat loss has stalled. It seemed like a knee-jerk reaction on their part to blame the thyroid for lack of progress, but sure enough, most of them were just ****ing up either in diet or training! Thanks again for sharing -- reps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Wow, that sounds tremendously frustrating. Thanks for explaining; I just wanted a firsthand account cause Wiki and WebMD are only so useful in identifying the actual experience someone endures that leads to something like hypothyroidism being diagnosed.

    I originally asked because occasionally I'll hear people who have plateaued or incorporated some ****ty methodologies into their routine talk about how they are concerned with hypothyroidism because their fat loss has stalled. It seemed like a knee-jerk reaction on their part to blame the thyroid for lack of progress, but sure enough, most of them were just ****ing up either in diet or training! Thanks again for sharing -- reps.
    Happy to help.

    I've always been one to say that I was still doing something wrong or not doing something hard enough - so I never wanted to assume this or blame it until I seriously ran out of all ideas and hope.

    I will do annual bloodwork on all of my levels from here on out, though. I advise everyone else does the same. For all the money I poured into supplements, hoping those would help since diet was on point, etc., I could have paid for a ton of tests that would have brought me to the real culprit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Happy to help.

    I've always been one to say that I was still doing something wrong or not doing something hard enough - so I never wanted to assume this or blame it until I seriously ran out of all ideas and hope.

    I will do annual bloodwork on all of my levels from here on out, though. I advise everyone else does the same. For all the money I poured into supplements, hoping those would help since diet was on point, etc., I could have paid for a ton of tests that would have brought me to the real culprit.
    Well you look like a beast even with the pitfalls you have had to overcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    This is actually kind of cool because yourself and some others here (JohnRock, Easy) lift early in the AM while I lift quite late in the PM (almost always begin between 7PM and 8PM) and take in all my calories in the hours immediately before sleeping; but even in this scenario the fat is coming off nicely while strength is slowly (but definitively) increasing.
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxp1997 View Post
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.
    Definitely as a matter of fact that would be pretty close to ideal. If you look at the section in the first post where it says 2 meals pre workout, that is the one you would want to follow it is basically like 25% and 25% of your caloric intake the first 2 meals and then 50% of your caloric requirements post training. I think on non training days you would simply put more on your fast breaking meal instead of the post workout meal. However you could easily take 65-70% of your calories post workout. The fact it is close to bed time is not a problem with the intermittent fasting.
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    about 3 years on IF now. Wouldn't change it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    about 3 years on IF now. Wouldn't change it.
    SO Resolve what would you note the biggest differences are between the ADF fasting protocal and the Lean Gains seeing as you have a good bit of experience in both? I see you have migrated to the ADF recently do you foresee you sticking with this or moving back towards the Lean Gains type of IF.

    I know recently you added 4 lbs to your frame without any obvious fat gain how has that held up since going off of the AA product?
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    Kleen thanks bud. Been trying a bunch of differnt things. But everytime I get aboiut 2-3 weeks eating real clean, my body lunges out in rage for some unhealthy choices(LOL).
    But this may be a new tool in my arsenal. Ive lost roughly 20 pounds in the last 2 months but seemed to have stalled out a bit. No biggy though. Going to give this a try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rxp1997 View Post
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.
    I fast from 2-3AM to 8-9PM with about an hour of variance in there from day to day, but it's always at least a 16-hour fast. But my situation might be unique in that I don't start working until after 12PM so I can still get ~8 hours of sleep while staying awake relatively late.

    I usually eat 45% of my calories PostWO, 35% a few hours later, and then enough to satiate me (almost always less than the remaining 15%) before I fall asleep.

    I mean, from what I've experienced this seems to work pretty well for keeping strength and retaining lean mass on a cut; I essentially lift, eat a bunch of food, and then fall asleep!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I fast from 2-3AM to 8-9PM with about an hour of variance in there from day to day, but it's always at least a 16-hour fast. But my situation might be unique in that I don't start working until after 12PM so I can still get ~8 hours of sleep while staying awake relatively late.

    I usually eat 45% of my calories PostWO, 35% a few hours later, and then enough to satiate me (almost always less than the remaining 15%) before I fall asleep.

    I mean, from what I've experienced this seems to work pretty well for keeping strength and retaining lean mass on a cut; I essentially lift, eat a bunch of food, and then fall asleep!
    It is a beautiful thing isn't it.
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