12 good reasons a keto diet blows!!

[CoorsLight126]

For years and years I did what everyone else did when I tried to cut up. I cut out my carbs. And every year the exact same ****ing result!! Loss of size, sort of leaner but still not as hard as I wanted to be, total lack of energy and overall felt like **** and run down. Finally I got smart and on a real diet. So here are the reasons I think keto diets SUCK!!

1- Your normally eating xyz amount of carbs/cals all year. why would you want to cut out almost all of your carbs right away? The body does not like sudden change, and it never seems to react favorably.

2-Lets be honest, your normally eating 3,4,5 cheat meals/wk during a normal eating regimine, how many cals and extra fat do you think that is? Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the fat from your diet first and let the carbs continue to transport nutrients to the muscles and keep them strong and full?

3- When the carbs remain in the diet they make the muscles fuller and they push against your skin more, making your muscles "pop out" more.

4- Usually just eating clean and average daily carbs, if you knock out the fat, your body still goes outside the realm of whats immediately available to it and burns stored bodyfat. You dont need to go into ketosis or drop your carbs insanely low!! This is a last resort thing when pulling that final 2-3% bodyfat off matters, like for a competition or something.

5-If you stop getting "a pump" in the gym your carbs are too ****ing low. What, you think your going to go 10-12 wks in this condition and hold the same level of size and condition? Nope. Drop the carbs into ketosis and its a great way to look emaciated

6-Your brain operates on glycogen stores, I'm guessing most of you have a job? Good luck thinking at work when your in ketosis, or driving your car w/out wrecking it because your too stupid acting to stop at a red light. Sounds healthy huh?

7- Ketosis is the bodies survival mechanism, its not meant to be the first means of fat loss done deliberately

8- "You need fat to burn fat" ****ing overrated!! Try knocking out almost all of your fats for a month, and keeping your carbs at 300 grams/day, with 1-2 grams protein/lb. Come tell me how fast you get shredded in just 4 wks time!!!

9-Ok, you got it all figured out dont ya? 400 grams/day protein, 50 grams/day carbs, 100 grams/day fats right? ok, so your at 2700 calories a day. Perfect!! Now if you could be at 2700 calories/day and keep your blood sugar more stable, feel better, and be stronger, which do you think you would benefit from more? Also, which do you think you could stick to longer without having cheat meals?

10- If your doing everything right there is no reason to carb cycle. All this bull**** about "tricking your body" is nonsense. It's smarter than you are, you aren't tricking ****, actually your doing an excellent job at jacking up cortisol levels and giving yourself a softer look and losing weight at the same time.

11- Ever notice how you get to a point where you actually stop getting hungry on a carb depletion? Geez, maybe the metabolism is actually slowing down!!

12- I could take 2 people, give 1 of them only 100 grams/day protein, and 400 grams/day carbs, and give the other guy 400 grams/day protein, and only 100 grams/day carbs, and in 90% of scenarios that guy with only 100 grams/day of protein who kept his carbs will look better in the end. I could do this with 90% of anybody I train!! So no, the answer isn't always "just keep the protein super high" and you'll hold all of your muscle!! Actually, it gets to a point it binds your digestive tract and is actually worse for you.


So there is my argument. Keto diets ****ing blow. I understand everybody is different, but not everybody is so different that we all need to totally deplete carbohydrate intake to get fantastic results and get shredded. do we need to lower caloric intake? yes. Do we need to lower our carbs to some degree? Sure. But ketosis, and checking ourselves with keto sticks and all this nonsense? Retarded approach for 90% of people!!

 

[HondaV65]

I must say - you are on a tear tonight boss! Second myth-busting thread of the eve it appears.

I disagree about the carbs though ... I try to eat as primitively as I can and, since primitive man really didn't do a lot of farming - most of his sustenance came from animal meats and fats. Carbs are not "bad bad" - but they are a luxury of modern man that I think needs to be taken in moderation.

 

[RickRock13]

This is a good read and arguable to some. Effective or not, Carb cycling isn't for me anyways. Never sounded appealing to me

 

[schwellington]

wtf anyone who cheats 3, 4, or 5, times a week isnt dedicate-

i disagree whole heartedly im on low carbs (under 50) a day and my body loves it- if done properly its amazing, and if the body reacts well, everyones body is different dude, this is where you made your key mistake- your body might not react well, but mine sure as hell does- and if YOU are cheating that many times a week, well, either rededicate, or quit trying to be fit

 

[schwellington]

oh and fyi buddy, fatty acids etc, they can work just like glycogen, your arguement- does not have enough solid facts, alot of bro science


fail

 

[schwellington]

metabolic rate can be manipulated to by a simple change in diet

fail # 2


produce some studies- and i may reconsider, but uh, im loosing fat insanely fast, so

 

[soontobbeast]

i read all of your points .

I must say it's a great story.

none of it is based on fact, though.

these two are my favorite :


''6-Your brain operates on glycogen stores, I'm guessing most of you have a job? Good luck thinking at work when your in ketosis, or driving your car w/out wrecking it because your too stupid acting to stop at a red light. Sounds healthy huh?''

''8- "You need fat to burn fat" ****ing overrated!! Try knocking out almost all of your fats for a month, and keeping your carbs at 300 grams/day, with 1-2 grams protein/lb. Come tell me how fast you get shredded in just 4 wks time!!! ''

 

[schwellington]

FAIL

 

[JudoJosh]

WOW... so much misinformation in here.

I would suggest before you knock a keto diet actually go and read one of the keto books and not souce your info on the diets from various forum post.

1. Yes it does suck to cut them out all of a sudden but it is needed for the metabolic shift to occur

2. 3,4,5 cheat meals a week?? Are you kidding me. I think its safe to say this is the reason why it didnt work for you.

3. Keyword here is "LOOK" fuller. I think the ratio was for every gram of carb consumed you body holds onto 2.4-3g water. Not hard to see why you LOOK bigger.

4. Somewhat agree but it will depend on what you consider an "average" amount of carbs.

5. I have been keto several times and still had "pumps" but besides that getting "pumps" arent conclusive to growing or getting stronger.

6. Correct your brain and spinal cord use glucose and NEEDS glucose but carbs arent the only way to get glucose. Glucose can be obtained through protein and fat intake

7. Actually research is showing our bodies were meant to be in ketosis longer. Carbs are a luxury of civilization. Most carbs arent natural, in fact many grains contain ant-inutrients and are poisonous if consumed raw. Rice, oats, wheat, etc are all products of production. The only 2 essential ones are fat and protein. We NEED them to survive NOT carbs.

8. Completely true while in ketosis you will need a steady intake of fat in order for your body to burn the fat it is stored. If you never ate fat and only ate protein you body will likely turn to its muscles to obtain energy and glucose since it sees no incoming fat. As for the knocking out all your fat.. your body NEEDS fat. Fat is a precursor to testosterone along with many other hormones! Not to mention you will look sick because your skin and hair need fat intake and cutting all fat will likely make your complexion look sickly and your hair start to wilt and fall out.

9. What give you the impression that the blood sugar wont be stable? Protein has a very small insulin response and the fat intake slows that response even more. Where are you getting this idea that blood sugar will be unstable?

10. Are you speaking about the carb refeeds here? Would be too much to address here but I would suggest picking up a book such as anabolic diet and reading to learn why that is recommended.

11. Metabolism is slowing down? How? Your body requires more energy to break down proteins and fats so a steady intake actually raises your metabolism. Most carbs are broken down almost effortlessly by the body.

12. There is not a single study that shows negative effects from high protein consumption in a healthy individual.

And for the record I am not a proponent of a keto diet. I dont think it is necessary unless a person has a real low body fat percent. When a person has a relatively high bodyfat percent the body will willingly burn that fat. It is when you get super low BF% where the body becomes resistant to letting it go and a keto diet works wonders to force the body to burn it. I wouldnt recommend a keto approach to most people either but eating 400g carbs a day is definitely not the answer. I usually hoover around 100-150g carbs.

So do you NEED keto? No you are correct

Does keto work.. absolutely when done correctly

 

[Rodja]

oh and fyi buddy, fatty acids etc, they can work just like glycogen, your arguement- does not have enough solid facts, alot of bro science


fail

Yes and no. Fats can work like glucose, but not like glycogen. There is a small amount of fats stored within the muscle cell (IMTG), but there is a much larger capacity for glycogen within the muscle cell.

There are pros and cons to every diet and there is not a universal answer to anyone. Plus, your particular results are heavily skewed due to anabolics.

 

[monsterbox]

I beg the differ.

Although keto sucks as far as side effects, its EXTREMELY effective as restoring insane insulin sensitity. When utilized as a secret weapon/tool for a short burst during a certain time period, you will reset your cellular sensitivity, then when you return to your normal diet you will BLOW UP with strength/mass.

I think keto is amazing to implement randomly in the middle of huge bulks. Taking 10 days off and doing a no carb course is hell, but if we were all able to stick it out in the middle of a bulk, it would bring back sensitivty to the +xxxx amount of surplus carbs that you are eating, making your bulking that much more effective when you return.

Summary:
As a primary diet, keto blows:

however, keto is an amazing primer/reset button for the metabolism.



What you guys are missing is the fact that eating your set number of calories and carbs is going to cause A DROP IN RESPONSE...meaning less "pump" to your muscles and "less strength" glycogen storage will become stagnant...ESPECIALLY if you are bulking.

READ UP ON INSULIN SENSITIVITY ASAP!!!

 

[CoorsLight126]

It's ok guys, thanks for giving my thread a read anyways. Just in case you guys are ever curious, just give it a try sometime before you knock it. Dedicate 4 wks to doing this!! Make your fat intake almost non existent(no flax, no omega caps, no peanut butter or almonds) keep your carbs moderate around 250-350 grams/day depending on your size, and protein at 1-2 grams/lb of lean mass. Try it before you knock it, you may find that low carb isn't for you as I did. I've competed for the past 10 years now, and damn if i wished I had not figured this out sooner!!

 

[JudoJosh]

It's ok guys, thanks for giving my thread a read anyways. Just in case you guys are ever curious, just give it a try sometime before you knock it. Dedicate 4 wks to doing this!! Make your fat intake almost non existent(no flax, no omega caps, no peanut butter or almonds) keep your carbs moderate around 250-350 grams/day depending on your size, and protein at 1-2 grams/lb of lean mass. Try it before you knock it, you may find that low carb isn't for you as I did. I've competed for the past 10 years now, and damn if i wished I had not figured this out sooner!!

That is a recipe for a myraid of health problems... Good luck to you with that

 

[CoorsLight126]

That is a recipe for a myraid of health problems... Good luck to you with that

I said "the first 4 wks without fats" as you progress further along with the diet the whole goal is to add things back in as you get in better condition. I'm simply speaking of going the opposite route and taking your fats away instead of your carbs INITIALLY. My bloodwork looked pretty good last time I did this, I didnt see any health problems. But I appreciate your concern bro

 

[BigBen89]

I beg the differ.

Although keto sucks as far as side effects, its EXTREMELY effective as restoring insane insulin sensitity. When utilized as a secret weapon/tool for a short burst during a certain time period, you will reset your cellular sensitivity, then when you return to your normal diet you will BLOW UP with strength/mass.

I think keto is amazing to implement randomly in the middle of huge bulks. Taking 10 days off and doing a no carb course is hell, but if we were all able to stick it out in the middle of a bulk, it would bring back sensitivty to the +xxxx amount of surplus carbs that you are eating, making your bulking that much more effective when you return.

Summary:
As a primary diet, keto blows:

however, keto is an amazing primer/reset button for the metabolism.



What you guys are missing is the fact that eating your set number of calories and carbs is going to cause A DROP IN RESPONSE...meaning less "pump" to your muscles and "less strength" glycogen storage will become stagnant...ESPECIALLY if you are bulking.

READ UP ON INSULIN SENSITIVITY ASAP!!!

wow, ive never even thought of that. That is such a ****ing good idea, im def giving that a try.

 

[Rodja]

I said "the first 4 wks without fats" as you progress further along with the diet the whole goal is to add things back in as you get in better condition. I'm simply speaking of going the opposite route and taking your fats away instead of your carbs INITIALLY. My bloodwork looked pretty good last time I did this, I didnt see any health problems. But I appreciate your concern bro

4 weeks is a very long time to be willingly deficient in EFAs and to put yourself at risk for malabsorption of Vitamin A, D, E, and K. God knows how much hormonal damage that will do to you for months.

You're partially being a tad hypocritical on this as your main point should be to take a more moderate approach when it comes to dieting, yet you spew about the greatness of cutting out fats for an extended period of time. For most people, a lowered carb appoach will be much better for them as opposed to cutting out fats.

There is a lot of opinion and very little science in this post and you have yet to cite any evidence for this. If anything, your whole stance is nothing but broscience.

 

[EasyEJL]

I must say - you are on a tear tonight boss! Second myth-busting thread of the eve it appears.

I disagree about the carbs though ... I try to eat as primitively as I can and, since primitive man really didn't do a lot of farming - most of his sustenance came from animal meats and fats. Carbs are not "bad bad" - but they are a luxury of modern man that I think needs to be taken in moderation.

And primitive man grew to just over 5 feet tall and had a 35 year lifespan. Evolution doesn't lead to the optimization of the individual, but overall species survival.

 

[Rodja]

And primitive man grew to just over 5 feet tall and had a 35 year lifespan. Evolution doesn't lead to the optimization of the individual, but overall species survival.

There's a bit of a caveat with the average life span and that is a high rate of infant mortality. Take that away from the equation and the life span is roughly the same as our current rates.

 

[EasyEJL]

Does keto work.. absolutely when done correctly

Can you point to any scientific studies that compare keto vs non keto diets at same calories showing the keto diet having better body composition effect than the non keto ? I never found any.

 

[JudoJosh]

Can you point to any scientific studies that compare keto vs non keto diets at same calories showing the keto diet having better body composition effect than the non keto ? I never found any.

I don't believe that is what I put so why are you asking for those specific studies to be presented?

My statement was.. Does keto work? Absolutely

I even agreed with him to some extent stating that one does not need a keto diet to loose weight.

But anyway I may just have one for you though , I believe one is cited in a book I read. I will post up if I find it

 

[EasyEJL]

Really it was an open invitation to anyone. I've never been able to find a study showing positive body comp difference vs same caloric restriction on non keto. If anything I've found some evidence the reverse is true, particularly starting over 15 % bf. That's part of why I gave up on using keto myself. I very likely will use it pre contest but only for lowered water retention and likely just last 4 weeks.

 

[MM11]

I have never had luck with lo carb diets. I cut carbs a few hours before bed but lose Fat much faster eating balanced meals and counting calories. Everyones different good to hear others are getting away from keto diets

 

[CoorsLight126]

4 weeks is a very long time to be willingly deficient in EFAs and to put yourself at risk for malabsorption of Vitamin A, D, E, and K. God knows how much hormonal damage that will do to you for months.

You're partially being a tad hypocritical on this as your main point should be to take a more moderate approach when it comes to dieting, yet you spew about the greatness of cutting out fats for an extended period of time. For most people, a lowered carb appoach will be much better for them as opposed to cutting out fats.

There is a lot of opinion and very little science in this post and you have yet to cite any evidence for this. If anything, your whole stance is nothing but broscience.

Say what you want, it works. You drop almost all fats for the first 4 wks, possibly longer depending on how your coming around. After that, you slowly lower your carbs while slowly adding back in your fats. When you begin to add the fats back in you get even tighter and tighter. By the 10th or 12th week, your diced like you wouldn't believe

 

[monsterbox]

The trick to loosing FAT and building muscle, is simply insulin sensitivity. The higher the better....do what works for you to set up the most primed glycogen retention and you will make gains in muscle if protein is present, and major fat loss. Overall calories, balanced diet, carb cycle, keto whatever the f*ck...choose what is most managable for your lifestyle but remember its all about insulin. It has nothing to do with cutting dietary healhty fat from your diet...this is the worst route to loosing weight.

In fact what is working best for me these days is not to bulk or cut...its to do both in the same day

cario in the morning fasted, followed by large doses of R-ALA and sometimes metformin to rapidly increase insulin response, it gets so bad Ill pass out if i don't eat immediately. Then i pound a good deal of protein and huge carbs.

zero carbs, high protein rest of the day with plenty of fats.

Pre-workout, 1 hr before, more R-ala and metformin and another serving of carbs/protein, same post workout R-ala.

No carbs and only protein until the next morning. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


The goal is getting the carbs stored ONLY as glycogen in the skeletal muscle tissue which only works if you are manipulating the times that you are intaking carbs. If you are sitting on the couch eating carbs during a stagnant period of the day...those carbs are pretty much being wasted and are DOWN REGULATING your sensitivity.

You can eat a crap ton of carbs if you do them at the right time.


This whole picture can be expanded into larger blocks...

Rather than high carb/low carb all in one day.. you can do high carb days, and low carb days...or low carb weeks (keto)


Conclusively, the keto diet is highly effective if incorperated into a carb sensitizing regiment. Pure bulking with tons of calories is effective, but definitely not the most effecient IF you have the time and discipline to plan out a glycogen manipulation diet. But for majority of people a Bulk phase + a cut phase is easiest and the most sane process. If you are a huge bodybuilder with a huge maintenance it gets very difficult to manage 1000's of calories and carb usage, which is why alot of guys are using Insulin, IGF, etc...

Im beginning to think of carbs with a new philosophy "what goes up must come down" the energy you recieve from carbs one day, will not be the same the next. You must "post-cycle" from the carbs to a degree in order to restore the effectiveness and keto is amazing at this...

 

[Rodja]

Say what you want, it works. You drop almost all fats for the first 4 wks, possibly longer depending on how your coming around. After that, you slowly lower your carbs while slowly adding back in your fats. When you begin to add the fats back in you get even tighter and tighter. By the 10th or 12th week, your diced like you wouldn't believe

Conversely, I could easily have the retort of say what you want. Like others have said, your whole post is based on your opinion and experience and trying to apply to everyone.

There is no way, shape, or form that having an extremely low fat intake (>5% total kcals) is healthy for anyone. Perhaps you should do more reading on insulin, GI, hormone conversion, GH/IGF levels, and thyroid metabolism before you make such broad claims.

Consider this: there are essential fatty acids, essential amino acids, but there is not an essential source of glucose. The reason is that the body is adept at finding glucose in time of "starvation." BB'ers, as a whole, take things to extremes (which is retarded, IMO). Stay closer to moderation and you'll find yourself with better long-term results ass opposed to playing the bulk/cut cycly over and over and over and over....

 

[schwellington]

I agree with monster- insulin sensitivity is so often overlooked it's such a key component.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

I like the "eating fat doesn't mean you'll burn fat" idea. Nothing in the literature I've read shows that eating fat will stimulate the body to burn fat.

I'd appreciate if anyone can comment on this, proving it false or otherwise.

 

[JudoJosh]

I like the "eating fat doesn't mean you'll burn fat" idea. Nothing in the literature I've read shows that eating fat will stimulate the body to burn fat.

I'd appreciate if anyone can comment on this, proving it false or otherwise.

It really depends on the rest of your macros.

To my understanding of it:

If your body isnt seeing any carbs coming in it will have to look for other sources of energy. By eating a high fat diet the body will then use that incoming fat as energy along with the bodies stored fat. If you cut both carbs and fat intake then the body will look to muscle to get the energy it needs. Keto is a way to FORCE your body to burn fat when it doesnt want to but again a keto diet isnt needed to burn fat. You can burn fat while still eating carbs and it is the most optimal way for many people but for those who have a low bodyfat percent the body isnt always as willing to give up that fat storage, this is the only time a keto diet is really appropriate I believe.

At least this is my understanding of it :dunno:

 

[SweetLou321]

The trick to loosing FAT and building muscle, is simply insulin sensitivity. The higher the better....do what works for you to set up the most primed glycogen retention and you will make gains in muscle if protein is present, and major fat loss. Overall calories, balanced diet, carb cycle, keto whatever the f*ck...choose what is most managable for your lifestyle but remember its all about insulin. It has nothing to do with cutting dietary healhty fat from your diet...this is the worst route to loosing weight.

In fact what is working best for me these days is not to bulk or cut...its to do both in the same day

cario in the morning fasted, followed by large doses of R-ALA and sometimes metformin to rapidly increase insulin response, it gets so bad Ill pass out if i don't eat immediately. Then i pound a good deal of protein and huge carbs.

zero carbs, high protein rest of the day with plenty of fats.

Pre-workout, 1 hr before, more R-ala and metformin and another serving of carbs/protein, same post workout R-ala.

No carbs and only protein until the next morning. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


The goal is getting the carbs stored ONLY as glycogen in the skeletal muscle tissue which only works if you are manipulating the times that you are intaking carbs. If you are sitting on the couch eating carbs during a stagnant period of the day...those carbs are pretty much being wasted and are DOWN REGULATING your sensitivity.

You can eat a crap ton of carbs if you do them at the right time.


This whole picture can be expanded into larger blocks...

Rather than high carb/low carb all in one day.. you can do high carb days, and low carb days...or low carb weeks (keto)


Conclusively, the keto diet is highly effective if incorperated into a carb sensitizing regiment. Pure bulking with tons of calories is effective, but definitely not the most effecient IF you have the time and discipline to plan out a glycogen manipulation diet. But for majority of people a Bulk phase + a cut phase is easiest and the most sane process. If you are a huge bodybuilder with a huge maintenance it gets very difficult to manage 1000's of calories and carb usage, which is why alot of guys are using Insulin, IGF, etc...

Im beginning to think of carbs with a new philosophy "what goes up must come down" the energy you recieve from carbs one day, will not be the same the next. You must "post-cycle" from the carbs to a degree in order to restore the effectiveness and keto is amazing at this...

Now im gonna have to try something along these lines, thanks for the ideas. So question, since im doing 5/3/1, can i just keto for 10 days during my deload or no?

 

[OrganicShadow]

One word: gluconeogenesis. Done.

 

[jlinteris]

I did not even read any of the other responses. I only read the original topic and I can tell you that you should educate yourself a little bit. There is so much misinformation on what you think that it is not even funny. I am 30 days into a CKD and not only am I leaning out fast, but I have actually gained strength as I go.

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong

1) You don't feel hungry because in ketosis your body uses fat as an energy source instead of carbs. You eat high fats and your bodyfat are used for energy. Fat has 9 calories per gram, carbs have 4. I feel easily as energized 1 month in as when I was eating carbs and I never have crashed blood sugar.

2)5 cheat meals a week?? LOL. Must I explain anything here?

3)Yes your brain runs on glycogen stores. When the glycogen expires, your brain runs on ketones in a 'survival' mode.

Haha, honestly I dont even know why I put the effort in to even explain this. You obviously have NEVER read anything about this diet.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=ephedrine+on+keto+diet&source=bl&ots=dMRRa1zRBA&sig=DNockV5vy0z6I307i6BPXsz82ag&hl=en&ei=S01hTeb1IIG4sAPe2JHOCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

There is the book for free. This is in no way a dig at you personally, but your thread is trash and spreads false information.

 

[tubbednova]

I know for a fact that when (I)cut my carbs to 30g a day and upped my fat i lost about 1%bf in two weeks doing nothing.I was recovering from overreaching or overtraing and eating a low fat and low carb diet got me there.Not only did it lower my t-levels i had no energy but i didn't have it with a high fat diet too but the overtraing has alot to do with that.I learned that what works for 1 doesn't always work for another.Knowing your own body and how to fuel it for your goals is key.I know easier said then done but why rush it unless your 80yrs.

 

[bla55]

So much BS from the original poster...

I've never been happier ever since I went Keto... I haven't been "hardcore" keto in a while, will allow myself a couple of cheat days per week now sometimes and I still have been leaning pretty well. I feel great, have made strength gains even in deficit, and everything has been going great.

Not to mention, my personal favorite: I get to eat WHATEVER I WANT, much rather eat bacon and burguers than bread and pasta.

 

[tubbednova]

Think i'll stick to the bacon,burgers,eggs but have with pancakes, rolls and yams!!No just kidding my body works better with a mix of carbs,pro,fat i cut down on carbs on sunday no trainng that day but with doing kickboxing,cardio and lifting i'd never make it without eating like this.To one his own:yumyum:

 

[T50]

Holy broscience. Crash my car from keto? :wtf:

 

[spimp187]

1 Good Reason This Thread Blows...

...its based on the poster's anecdotal evidence and perceived notions about nutrition.

I think its been touched on in a previous post but OP is not even considering the positive hormonal aspects of a ketogenic diet. And that is what makes the diet truly unique and effective.

 

[MAxximal]

WOW... so much misinformation in here.

I would suggest before you knock a keto diet actually go and read one of the keto books and not souce your info on the diets from various forum post.

1. Yes it does suck to cut them out all of a sudden but it is needed for the metabolic shift to occur

2. 3,4,5 cheat meals a week?? Are you kidding me. I think its safe to say this is the reason why it didnt work for you.

3. Keyword here is "LOOK" fuller. I think the ratio was for every gram of carb consumed you body holds onto 2.4-3g water. Not hard to see why you LOOK bigger.

4. Somewhat agree but it will depend on what you consider an "average" amount of carbs.

5. I have been keto several times and still had "pumps" but besides that getting "pumps" arent conclusive to growing or getting stronger.

6. Correct your brain and spinal cord use glucose and NEEDS glucose but carbs arent the only way to get glucose. Glucose can be obtained through protein and fat intake

7. Actually research is showing our bodies were meant to be in ketosis longer. Carbs are a luxury of civilization. Most carbs arent natural, in fact many grains contain ant-inutrients and are poisonous if consumed raw. Rice, oats, wheat, etc are all products of production. The only 2 essential ones are fat and protein. We NEED them to survive NOT carbs.

8. Completely true while in ketosis you will need a steady intake of fat in order for your body to burn the fat it is stored. If you never ate fat and only ate protein you body will likely turn to its muscles to obtain energy and glucose since it sees no incoming fat. As for the knocking out all your fat.. your body NEEDS fat. Fat is a precursor to testosterone along with many other hormones! Not to mention you will look sick because your skin and hair need fat intake and cutting all fat will likely make your complexion look sickly and your hair start to wilt and fall out.

9. What give you the impression that the blood sugar wont be stable? Protein has a very small insulin response and the fat intake slows that response even more. Where are you getting this idea that blood sugar will be unstable?

10. Are you speaking about the carb refeeds here? Would be too much to address here but I would suggest picking up a book such as anabolic diet and reading to learn why that is recommended.

11. Metabolism is slowing down? How? Your body requires more energy to break down proteins and fats so a steady intake actually raises your metabolism. Most carbs are broken down almost effortlessly by the body.

12. There is not a single study that shows negative effects from high protein consumption in a healthy individual.

And for the record I am not a proponent of a keto diet. I dont think it is necessary unless a person has a real low body fat percent. When a person has a relatively high bodyfat percent the body will willingly burn that fat. It is when you get super low BF% where the body becomes resistant to letting it go and a keto diet works wonders to force the body to burn it. I wouldnt recommend a keto approach to most people either but eating 400g carbs a day is definitely not the answer. I usually hoover around 100-150g carbs.

So do you NEED keto? No you are correct

Does keto work.. absolutely when done correctly

Totally Correct!!!!!! :arms:

 

[EasyEJL]

1 Good Reason This Thread Blows...

...its based on the poster's anecdotal evidence and perceived notions about nutrition.

I think its been touched on in a previous post but OP is not even considering the positive hormonal aspects of a ketogenic diet. And that is what makes the diet truly unique and effective.

Please a study showing those hormonal effects. The only studies I've found that show significant hormonal effects have to do with brain chemistry, which is why they use a ketogenic diet on epilieptic children

 

[CoorsLight126]

1 Good Reason This Thread Blows...

...its based on the poster's anecdotal evidence and perceived notions about nutrition.

I think its been touched on in a previous post but OP is not even considering the positive hormonal aspects of a ketogenic diet. And that is what makes the diet truly unique and effective.

Positive hormonal aspects of carb deprivation? Lets talk about negative aspects of depriving your muscles of glycogen for months at a time. When you take out the carbs you go flat, end of story. Your muscles are made up of mostly water, without carbs nutrients do not get properly transported and the muscle atrophies to more of a degree than it should. I'm sure some of you get very fast results doing this, I'm talking about going months at a time and when you show off the finished product your wondering WTF happened and the other guy standing next to you is harder, more vascular, and bigger.

Thats right, I said crash your car. If you think your brain operates just as sharp and efficiently in ketosis as it does normally you've never low carbed longer than a few days and your full of ****. No frikken way, I've never once been around someone in ketosis with an already average to low bodyfat who "felt good" Your at the point your a walking zombie, crawling out of bed is a chore in itself. Its not "broscience" as you little talking parrots like to call it, its being in the game and around the **** long enough to know WTF is up. And guess what else? 90% of top bodybuilders are not dieting with ketosis, I know this for a fact because they all run Growth and they physically cannot do it. So Broscience me all you want, WTF me all you want. My stance stays the same, keto sucks and there are better ways to come down and stay strong, shredded, and sane. Go to an amateur competition, open your frikken eyes. Its always the same ****, 90% of them look emaciated, sucked up, downright frikken terrible. Its a best abs contest because most of their other bodyparts got ****ed up in the dieting process because they did everything WRONG. Then you have the couple individuals who knew what they were doing and look fantastic, have energy to pose well, and muscles look big and healthy.

I said 4-5 cheats/wk on a NORMAL EATING REGIMINE. I think some of you misunderstood me, I actually go wks and wks at a time w/out cheat meals on a serious diet. Which is much easier to do for me on moderate carb/low fat diet.

Everybody feel free to go ahead and jump on the talking parrot bandwagon. If ketosis works for you then fantastic, PERSONALLY I think it sucks though. But I'm definitely no idiot in this sport, that I will take up for myself about. So many of you are throwing your hard earned money away using way more protein than necessary, way too many supplements, and following this stupid Atkins diet type trend. Sometime if your ever bored or just feel like trying something new I strongly encourage you to try something for me. Lower your protein intake to just 100 grams/day, and raise your carbs to replace the calories you lost from lowering your protein intake. 300-500 grams/carbs is a good place to start. Now knock out almost all of your fats EXCEPT FOR 1 lean steak/day. Just try this for 4-6 wks. You will soon see the ****ed up downward spiral the supplement and bodybuilding industry have become by brainwashing everybody into this same damn mindframe. Try it, then come tell me I'm a moron when your strong as ****, getting lean very quickly, and feel great. Then you can come call me an idiot

 

[Rodja]

Positive hormonal aspects of carb deprivation? Lets talk about negative aspects of depriving your muscles of glycogen for months at a time. When you take out the carbs you go flat, end of story. Your muscles are made up of mostly water, without carbs nutrients do not get properly transported and the muscle atrophies to more of a degree than it should. I'm sure some of you get very fast results doing this, I'm talking about going months at a time and when you show off the finished product your wondering WTF happened and the other guy standing next to you is harder, more vascular, and bigger.

Thats right, I said crash your car. If you think your brain operates just as sharp and efficiently in ketosis as it does normally you've never low carbed longer than a few days and your full of ****. No frikken way, I've never once been around someone in ketosis with an already average to low bodyfat who "felt good" Your at the point your a walking zombie, crawling out of bed is a chore in itself. Its not "broscience" as you little talking parrots like to call it, its being in the game and around the **** long enough to know WTF is up. And guess what else? 90% of top bodybuilders are not dieting with ketosis, I know this for a fact because they all run Growth and they physically cannot do it. So Broscience me all you want, WTF me all you want. My stance stays the same, keto sucks and there are better ways to come down and stay strong, shredded, and sane. Go to an amateur competition, open your frikken eyes. Its always the same ****, 90% of them look emaciated, sucked up, downright frikken terrible. Its a best abs contest because most of their other bodyparts got ****ed up in the dieting process because they did everything WRONG. Then you have the couple individuals who knew what they were doing and look fantastic, have energy to pose well, and muscles look big and healthy.

I said 4-5 cheats/wk on a NORMAL EATING REGIMINE. I think some of you misunderstood me, I actually go wks and wks at a time w/out cheat meals on a serious diet. Which is much easier to do for me on moderate carb/low fat diet.

Everybody feel free to go ahead and jump on the talking parrot bandwagon. If ketosis works for you then fantastic, PERSONALLY I think it sucks though. But I'm definitely no idiot in this sport, that I will take up for myself about. So many of you are throwing your hard earned money away using way more protein than necessary, way too many supplements, and following this stupid Atkins diet type trend. Sometime if your ever bored or just feel like trying something new I strongly encourage you to try something for me. Lower your protein intake to just 100 grams/day, and raise your carbs to replace the calories you lost from lowering your protein intake. 300-500 grams/carbs is a good place to start. Now knock out almost all of your fats EXCEPT FOR 1 lean steak/day. Just try this for 4-6 wks. You will soon see the ****ed up downward spiral the supplement and bodybuilding industry have become by brainwashing everybody into this same damn mindframe. Try it, then come tell me I'm a moron when your strong as ****, getting lean very quickly, and feel great. Then you can come call me an idiot

1. Use a citation every now and then and not an opinion-based rant
2. Bodybuilding is not a sport
3. Your thread is still awful

 

[jlinteris]

Positive hormonal aspects of carb deprivation? Lets talk about negative aspects of depriving your muscles of glycogen for months at a time. When you take out the carbs you go flat, end of story. Your muscles are made up of mostly water, without carbs nutrients do not get properly transported and the muscle atrophies to more of a degree than it should. I'm sure some of you get very fast results doing this, I'm talking about going months at a time and when you show off the finished product your wondering WTF happened and the other guy standing next to you is harder, more vascular, and bigger.

Thats right, I said crash your car. If you think your brain operates just as sharp and efficiently in ketosis as it does normally you've never low carbed longer than a few days and your full of ****. No frikken way, I've never once been around someone in ketosis with an already average to low bodyfat who "felt good" Your at the point your a walking zombie, crawling out of bed is a chore in itself. Its not "broscience" as you little talking parrots like to call it, its being in the game and around the **** long enough to know WTF is up. And guess what else? 90% of top bodybuilders are not dieting with ketosis, I know this for a fact because they all run Growth and they physically cannot do it. So Broscience me all you want, WTF me all you want. My stance stays the same, keto sucks and there are better ways to come down and stay strong, shredded, and sane. Go to an amateur competition, open your frikken eyes. Its always the same ****, 90% of them look emaciated, sucked up, downright frikken terrible. Its a best abs contest because most of their other bodyparts got ****ed up in the dieting process because they did everything WRONG. Then you have the couple individuals who knew what they were doing and look fantastic, have energy to pose well, and muscles look big and healthy.

I said 4-5 cheats/wk on a NORMAL EATING REGIMINE. I think some of you misunderstood me, I actually go wks and wks at a time w/out cheat meals on a serious diet. Which is much easier to do for me on moderate carb/low fat diet.

Everybody feel free to go ahead and jump on the talking parrot bandwagon. If ketosis works for you then fantastic, PERSONALLY I think it sucks though. But I'm definitely no idiot in this sport, that I will take up for myself about. So many of you are throwing your hard earned money away using way more protein than necessary, way too many supplements, and following this stupid Atkins diet type trend. Sometime if your ever bored or just feel like trying something new I strongly encourage you to try something for me. Lower your protein intake to just 100 grams/day, and raise your carbs to replace the calories you lost from lowering your protein intake. 300-500 grams/carbs is a good place to start. Now knock out almost all of your fats EXCEPT FOR 1 lean steak/day. Just try this for 4-6 wks. You will soon see the ****ed up downward spiral the supplement and bodybuilding industry have become by brainwashing everybody into this same damn mindframe. Try it, then come tell me I'm a moron when your strong as ****, getting lean very quickly, and feel great. Then you can come call me an idiot

LOL, I had my protein low and carbs high for a while and put on an insane ammount of fat. I have low carb dieted before and burned off just as much muscle and fat... right now I am 35 days into a keto diet, started at 257, under 240 now. I started with 19 inch arms, still have 19 inch arms. My legs have grown, I deadlifted 405x16 today, I have been getting stronger by the day and feel great and energized. Your diet ideas are great if you are using gear. Some of us natural lifters who cut use a keto diet to maintain as much muscle as possible and as a first timer it is more than noticable that this works better than a low carb approach. I am doing a cyclical keto where you refeed on the weekends (i eat up to 2000g carbs over 2 days) and have never felt better. Maybe the guy you saw that was a zombie wasnt doing it right? Everyones body responds differently to different things. You need to be a little more open minded as to what works and what doesnt. My log is in the workout section if you doubt anything of what I have said. I dont even use any supps.

 

[ZiR RED]

I try to eat as primitively as I can and, since primitive man really didn't do a lot of farming - most of his sustenance came from animal meats and fats.

This is a common misperception that the very low carb diet (VLCD) proponents often cite "eat like we did during paleolithic times..."

Well, the reason we as a species are so damn successful and outlived the other species of humans that were around 50k years ago is because we are resourceful. If nothing else, our species is resourceful.

Remember, we were hunter gatherers. And, that should actually be reversed. Gather hunters. Do you think men just walked outside the cave or lodge, threw a spear, and had bison for the next few days?

Meat was a premium food, and difficult to store unless dried and smoked. Why do you think hunters were held in such high esteem in non-farming societies. Hunting large game was not an easy nor always successful task. Furthermore, lets not forget man was the beast of burden. Man had to transport his kill back to camp, sometimes in distances as great 50+ miles. lets also not forget that man was not the supreme predator at this time. Large and dangerous competition was also about: cave lions, saber tooth tigers, large wolves, etc. So, what did man eat while he was out on the hunt? Mostly high energy starch and fat cakes. He certainly was not carrying a haunch of roast mammoth in his pocket.


Humans living in more temperate climates had access to a plentiful supply of fruits and tubers. In fact, tubers (ie: yams, starchy roots, etc.) made up a large proportion of the diets of temperate early man. And, lets not forget...it is much easier to store a cache of tubers than meat.

So you may say: Well, what about those living in Europe during the ice age? Well, while short, summers and springs existed just below the glacial line, where man lived.
During the spring fruits were in abundance...and, during the late summer and fall wild grains were in abundance on the steppes. Early man gathered these wild grains, which were very easy to store, and made all sorts of porriges and cakes.
Winters right below the glacial line were very harsh (unpredictable, high winds, very cold), and its not likely that during this time man went very far, or even left the enclosure.

So, before we all go about touting the paleo diet as free of grains and predominantly meat, read a damn anthropology book.

Br

 

[JudoJosh]

This is a common misperception that the very low carb diet (VLCD) proponents often cite "eat like we did during paleolithic times..."

Well, the reason we as a species are so damn successful and outlived the other species of humans that were around 50k years ago is because we are resourceful. If nothing else, our species is resourceful.

Remember, we were hunter gatherers. And, that should actually be reversed. Gather hunters. Do you think men just walked outside the cave or lodge, threw a spear, and had bison for the next few days?

Meat was a premium food, and difficult to store unless dried and smoked. Why do you think hunters were held in such high esteem in non-farming societies. Hunting large game was not an easy nor always successful task. Furthermore, lets not forget man was the beast of burden. Man had to transport his kill back to camp, sometimes in distances as great 50+ miles. lets also not forget that man was not the supreme predator at this time. Large and dangerous competition was also about: cave lions, saber tooth tigers, large wolves, etc. So, what did man eat while he was out on the hunt? Mostly high energy starch and fat cakes. He certainly was not carrying a haunch of roast mammoth in his pocket.


Humans living in more temperate climates had access to a plentiful supply of fruits and tubers. In fact, tubers (ie: yams, starchy roots, etc.) made up a large proportion of the diets of temperate early man. And, lets not forget...it is much easier to store a cache of tubers than meat.

So you may say: Well, what about those living in Europe during the ice age? Well, while short, summers and springs existed just below the glacial line, where man lived.
During the spring fruits were in abundance...and, during the late summer and fall wild grains were in abundance on the steppes. Early man gathered these wild grains, which were very easy to store, and made all sorts of porriges and cakes.
Winters right below the glacial line were very harsh (unpredictable, high winds, very cold), and its not likely that during this time man went very far, or even left the enclosure.

So, before we all go about touting the paleo diet as free of grains and predominantly meat, read a damn anthropology book.

Br

There is a difference between the VLCD crowd and paleo people. For example a VLCD person would be fine eating a burger from mcdonalds without the bun while a paleo person wouldn't even consider this. Paleo principles are more about the micronutrient content of the food you eat rather than the macro nutrient ratio (although macros do play a part in the diet)

Potatoes are in that gray area for the paleo/primal crowd. There is a forever ending debate of weather or not it should be consumed. You are absolutely correct that the primitive man did eat tubers. This is even acknowledged by Cordain (author of the paleo diet)

There are studies that show evidence of tuber consumption that they were done of the fossils of teeth...

Dr Nathanial Dominy further investigated this dilemma using stable isotope analysis, which tests the chemical signature on tooth enamel and is able to inform the researcher what type of food that chemical originally came from. He tested the tooth enamel of early hominins, todays mole rats which feed exclusively on bulbs and tubers (underground storage organs such as onions and potatoes) and fossils of mole rats, which were taken from sites where hominins were also discovered. The enamel of both rat samples matched that of the human sample providing strong evidence that early humans consumed tubers and bulbs. His research published in Nature further tested this hypothesis using molecular genetics. In this research they focused on the gene for salivary amylase, an enzyme in saliva that digests starch. Plants use starch to protect their fuel stores making them difficult to digest. He found through his research that chimpanzees, which subside mainly on fruit, had only two copies of this gene whereas humans have several copies of this gene. Having several copies allows more salivary amylaze to be made thus more easily breaking down starches. Thus, at some stage between the evolution of humans and chimpanzees, the duplication of these genes occurred, allowing humans to more easily subsist on tubers.

I believe the reason some paleo/primal people are against tubers are from the content of them not off the idea the primitive man didn't eat them. As my mcdonalds example above paleo/primalisnt just about high fat and protein with low carb it is more about the quality and content of the food you eat. For example why eat pasta or bread? There is next to little nutrients in them and if you argue the fiber benefit then compare that fiber source next to a fruit or veggie and the fruit or veggie will provide fiber as well as tons of other nutrients. So why eat it? Its just not needed. Anyway back to the tubers, some concerns with tubers are over things like glycoalkaloids, intestinal permeability (saponins and lectins), and accounts of joint irritation.

Weather a paleo/primal person eat a potato or not its going to have to be a personal decision for them. Those who may be insulin-resistant and lost the ability to handle glucose, potatoes might not be the best food to eat but for a lean and active person I dont see an issue with having a couple potatoes.

The majority of my eating is based on paleo/primal principles and I still eat my red/sweet potatoes.

 

[ZiR RED]

There is a difference between the VLCD crowd and paleo people. For example a VLCD person would be fine eating a burger from mcdonalds without the bun while a paleo person wouldn't even consider this. Paleo principles are more about the micronutrient content of the food you eat rather than the macro nutrient ratio (although macros do play a part in the diet)


I believe the reason some paleo/primal people are against tubers are from the content of them not off the idea the primitive man didn't eat them. As my mcdonalds example above paleo/primalisnt just about high fat and protein with low carb it is more about the quality and content of the food you eat. For example why eat pasta or bread? There is next to little nutrients in them and if you argue the fiber benefit then compare that fiber source next to a fruit or veggie and the fruit or veggie will provide fiber as well as tons of other nutrients. So why eat it? Its just not needed. Anyway back to the tubers, some concerns with tubers are over things like glycoalkaloids, intestinal permeability (saponins and lectins), and accounts of joint irritation.

Weather a paleo/primal person eat a potato or not its going to have to be a personal decision for them. Those who may be insulin-resistant and lost the ability to handle glucose, potatoes might not be the best food to eat but for a lean and active person I dont see an issue with having a couple potatoes.

The majority of my eating is based on paleo/primal principles and I still eat my red/sweet potatoes.

Good distinction between VLCD and primal diets.

I think a major factor in health and macro/micro nutrient prescription/recommendation is activity level between the modern era and that of our ancestors. During the warm seasons early man was constantly moving - whether it was gathering or tracking.

The substrate release that accompanies exercise would be better viewed by our society as essential nutrients, rather than a task to promote health, and we are still just breaking the surface WRT the positive physiological functions of these chemicals that are released during exercise.

Br

 

[waynaferd]

I did low carb for 2 weeks and lost so much strength, size, and energy....F**K THAT!!!!

But on a different note, fat doesn't make you fat, either. I just shy away from the "worse" forms of both when it comes time to "unchubbyerize"

 

[jlinteris]

I did low carb for 2 weeks and lost so much strength, size, and energy....F**K THAT!!!!

But on a different note, fat doesn't make you fat, either. I just shy away from the "worse" forms of both when it comes time to "unchubbyerize"

When you are low carb your body runs off of the minimal glycogen stores you have. When you are ZERO carb, your body uses fat as an energy source. I hate low carbs and get weak and small at a fast face. Using ketosis this is not the case at all. Try eliminating all carbs...

 

[Rodja]

When you are low carb your body runs off of the minimal glycogen stores you have. When you are ZERO carb, your body uses fat as an energy source. I hate low carbs and get weak and small at a fast face. Using ketosis this is not the case at all. Try eliminating all carbs...

How exactly do you go zero carb without having an excessively acidic and inflammatory diet?

 

[jlinteris]

How exactly do you go zero carb without having an excessively acidic and inflammatory diet?

From what I have read prior to starting this diet, eating large ammount of vegetables, especially spinich which is extremely alkaline will balance out the issue. Individuals that do not consume large ammounts of alkaline foods (veggies) have a blood reading on a keto diet which is more acidic in pH. Even the olive oil used as a regular fat is a mild alkaline and helps. I consume LARGE ammounts of green vegetables daily to offset this.

http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/acid_alkaline_food_chart.html

 

[ZiR RED]

From what I have read prior to starting this diet, eating large ammount of vegetables, especially spinich which is extremely alkaline will balance out the issue. Individuals that do not consume large ammounts of alkaline foods (veggies) have a blood reading on a keto diet which is more acidic in pH. Even the olive oil used as a regular fat is a mild alkaline and helps. I consume LARGE ammounts of green vegetables daily to offset this.

http://www.balance-ph-diet.com/acid_alkaline_food_chart.html

My favorite part of that site is that its only references are wikipedia.

Acidosis is the root of all pathologies plaguing modern society?
Acidosis is the major cause of osteroporosis? Really? It has nothing to do with inadequate minimal essential strains or vit D deficiency, and everything to do with eating acidic foods?

The kidneys keep the blood pH stable over the course of the day, while the respiratory system works to quickly increase pH during times when pH drop is dramatic (ie: exercise). If the kidneys are not working correctly, acidosis will ensue. However, if the kidneys are working, it is going to take more than a few bags of spinach to induce metabolic alkalosis.

And if you really want to induce alkalosis, you don't need to spend 50 bucks on some capsules. For a dollar at the grocery store you can pick up some sodium bicarbonate and take 3g/kg of body weight and induce alkalosis. And even then, the kidneys will quickly filter out the base excess and you'll be left with alkaline urine.

Br

 

[CoorsLight126]

This is a common misperception that the very low carb diet (VLCD) proponents often cite "eat like we did during paleolithic times..."

Well, the reason we as a species are so damn successful and outlived the other species of humans that were around 50k years ago is because we are resourceful. If nothing else, our species is resourceful.

Remember, we were hunter gatherers. And, that should actually be reversed. Gather hunters. Do you think men just walked outside the cave or lodge, threw a spear, and had bison for the next few days?

Meat was a premium food, and difficult to store unless dried and smoked. Why do you think hunters were held in such high esteem in non-farming societies. Hunting large game was not an easy nor always successful task. Furthermore, lets not forget man was the beast of burden. Man had to transport his kill back to camp, sometimes in distances as great 50+ miles. lets also not forget that man was not the supreme predator at this time. Large and dangerous competition was also about: cave lions, saber tooth tigers, large wolves, etc. So, what did man eat while he was out on the hunt? Mostly high energy starch and fat cakes. He certainly was not carrying a haunch of roast mammoth in his pocket.


Humans living in more temperate climates had access to a plentiful supply of fruits and tubers. In fact, tubers (ie: yams, starchy roots, etc.) made up a large proportion of the diets of temperate early man. And, lets not forget...it is much easier to store a cache of tubers than meat.

So you may say: Well, what about those living in Europe during the ice age? Well, while short, summers and springs existed just below the glacial line, where man lived.
During the spring fruits were in abundance...and, during the late summer and fall wild grains were in abundance on the steppes. Early man gathered these wild grains, which were very easy to store, and made all sorts of porriges and cakes.
Winters right below the glacial line were very harsh (unpredictable, high winds, very cold), and its not likely that during this time man went very far, or even left the enclosure.

So, before we all go about touting the paleo diet as free of grains and predominantly meat, read a damn anthropology book.

Br

Right on, thank you for this info. Such a huge misconception!! I've found another misconception to be "Avoid all white carb sources" Now I'm not exactly sure why this is (probably because I'm naturally hypoglycemic in nature), but I look killer eating white carb sources. I will actually eat 8-10 ounces of white potatoes at a time roughly 4-5x/day while dieting and look grainy and hard as a rock!! I look better eating white rice and potatoes over yams and brown rice, I've actually switched off before for a couple wks at a time to see if I noticed a difference and I looked better on the white carbs hands down. I've also found I do much better on steak and fish over chicken, which doesnt bother me at all because I ate so much chicken over the years I made myself sick to death of it. But thanks for that response, that is some very useful information and now I want to study anthropology more.