fruit and timing

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    fruit and timing


    so is post workout the only time that fruit is a good idea?
    looking at the fact that we all want to build muscle and burn fat?

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    My belief is fruit is fine any time except the last 4-6 hours of the day. 60-70% of the carbs in my diet come from fruit.
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    i hate how much it costs, i work at a grocery store and the raspberries are 250 for 60z which only provieds like 20g carbs, WTF 2.50 for 20g, thats more expensive than protein!!! wow
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    Fructose has a bad effect after about 1 serving of fruit a day. Post workout a carb and protein combo is best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    i hate how much it costs, i work at a grocery store and the raspberries are 250 for 60z which only provieds like 20g carbs, WTF 2.50 for 20g, thats more expensive than protein!!! wow
    true, that is the worst part about fruit. i eat a lot of bananas, canned pineapple, and grapes because they're less expensive. the cost of berries is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    so is post workout the only time that fruit is a good idea?
    looking at the fact that we all want to build muscle and burn fat?
    No. Fruit is fine throughout the day as well. Avoiding carbohydrates except post-training, regardless of your body goal, is not the smartest, nor the best or most effective way to manage your nutrition to achieve them.

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    well the problem is that i have seen studies in rats, yes i know its nt humans, that showed the body created a resistence to leptin, and also that fructose is the only sugar that needs to be converted to fat first then to glucose, so it is the most likely to be stored as fat...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    well the problem is that i have seen studies in rats, yes i know its nt humans, that showed the body created a resistence to leptin, and also that fructose is the only sugar that needs to be converted to fat first then to glucose, so it is the most likely to be stored as fat...
    Firstly, are you referring to the study where rats were fed a high-fructose corn syrup solution in addition to their regular food? If so it is really not relevant to an argument whether one should include fruit in his or her diet. One is a whole food with relatively low calorie density and high micronutrition, the other is a processed, high calorie density food totally devoid of any micronutrition.

    Secondly, fructose is not converted to fat first but it does have to be metabolized to glucose in the liver. This is a double edged sword. The benefit is that it takes longer to process (lower GI), the downside is that it can preferentially go into liver glycogen stores rather than muscle.

    Finally, anything with positive calories will make you fat if you eat enough of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    well the problem is that i have seen studies in rats, yes i know its nt humans, that showed the body created a resistence to leptin, and also that fructose is the only sugar that needs to be converted to fat first then to glucose, so it is the most likely to be stored as fat...
    Fructose is a MONOSACCHARIDE. It does NOT need to be converted to ANything for digestion, as it is ALREADY in the simplest form of glycogen molecule, which is moved through the cells of the small intestine lining via active transport and are washed away in the circulating blood, which then takes them to the liver to be converted into glucose. NO fat conversion anywhere (Wardlaw & Hampl, 2007).

    So, not sure what you are reading. There WAS a study done by Shapiro, et al. (2008) that indicated "that chronic fructose consumption induces leptin resistance prior to body weight, adiposity, serum leptin, insulin, or glucose increases, and this fructose-induced leptin resistance accelerates high-fat induced obesity." (Shapiro, et al., 2008, p. R1374), but this in in CONJUNCTION with a HIGH-FAT diet and other factors are involved, and it was specific to testing "the hypothesis that chronic fructose feeding induces leptin resistance, which in turn could predispose animals to increased weight gain in response to a high-fat diet." (Shapiro, et al., 2008, p. R1374). ANIMALS. IN CONJUNCTION WITH HIGH-FAT DIETS. You need to really READ research articles.

    On the subject of leptin resistance, yes, this can occur, but like almost everything, it IS reversible.


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    sorry rosie but it was over a year ago that i read the study, and yes as i recall it was a high fat diet, but when they through out terms like that its hard to narrow down what a HIGH fat diet is, i mean i take about 80g per day at 198lbs, would the DR consider that High moderate or low? and thats on about 2800 calorie diet so that would be 720/2800= ~26%fat in my diet.....

    and you and Nitrox have conflicting data, that fructose is converted to fat first, hes saying it is converted first but is preferentially converted to glucose in the liver, but there are many circumstances that need to be defined before you can say that the fructose that was converted to fat will then be stored as glycogen, I.E. timing, calorie expediture after ingestion and prior to ingestion.....
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    Hepatic fructolysis results primarily in liver glycogen replenishment. Once hepatic glycogen stores have been replenished then fructose metabolism is primarily directed towards triglyceride synthesis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Hepatic fructolysis results primarily in liver glycogen replenishment. Once hepatic glycogen stores have been replenished then fructose metabolism is primarily directed towards triglyceride synthesis.
    Source??

    adn wouldnt this be true of all carbohydrate sources??
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    you and Nitrox have conflicting data, that fructose is converted to fat first, hes saying it is converted first but is preferentially converted to glucose in the liver, but there are many circumstances that need to be defined before you can say that the fructose that was converted to fat will then be stored as glycogen, I.E. timing, calorie expediture after ingestion and prior to ingestion.....
    No, we are saying the same thing. Rosie was merely describing the digestion process as well. Fructose is directly absorbed into the bloodstream. As opposed to say, starches, which are broken down into glucose during the digestion process and then absorbed.

    Once fructose is absorbed, it goes to the liver and converted to glucose, not fat. If you are hypercaloric then the resulting glucose MAY be stored as fat depending on the circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Hepatic fructolysis results primarily in liver glycogen replenishment. Once hepatic glycogen stores have been replenished then fructose metabolism is primarily directed towards triglyceride synthesis.
    This is a generalization. It is dependent on overall energy balance.

    If hypocaloric then insulin levels will be lower and glucagon will be increased which triggers glucose release. As in, as fructose is converted to glucose it will go to fueling immediate energy needs.

    On the other hand, if hypercaloric then glucagon will be lower and insulin will be elevated which down regulates stored glucose release.
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    Source??
    Best I can find at the moment... I'm trying to do you better justice than simply linking to wikipedia, although IMO their science articles are more or less on point.

    [1] Enhancement of glycogen concentrations in primary cultures of rat hepatocytes exposed to glucose and fructose. M A Parniak and N Kalant
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

    [2] THE EFFECT OF FRUCTOSE ON HEPATIC SYNTHESIS OF FATTY ACIDS
    David Zakim
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

    adn wouldnt this be true of all carbohydrate sources??
    Not necessarily. Glucose has a different metabolic pathway. I want to say that galactose is similiar to fructose... although I don't have the time or the citations to back that up that statement at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Not necessarily. Glucose has a different metabolic pathway. I want to say that galactose is similiar to fructose... although I don't have the time or the citations to back that up that statement at the moment.
    You're correct bro.
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    here may be one, my comp wont open it though.... so dont quote me on any of it or the reliability of it, my "session keeps timing out"

    http://medheadlines.com/2008/07/28/f...-other-sugars/
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    sorry rosie but it was over a year ago that i read the study, and yes as i recall it was a high fat diet, but when they through out terms like that its hard to narrow down what a HIGH fat diet is, i mean i take about 80g per day at 198lbs, would the DR consider that High moderate or low? and thats on about 2800 calorie diet so that would be 720/2800= ~26%fat in my diet.....

    and you and Nitrox have conflicting data, that fructose is converted to fat first, hes saying it is converted first but is preferentially converted to glucose in the liver, but there are many circumstances that need to be defined before you can say that the fructose that was converted to fat will then be stored as glycogen, I.E. timing, calorie expediture after ingestion and prior to ingestion.....
    I would consider "high" fat anything over 40% of your daily caloric intake, but that's just me. Everyone has their own opinions on what is high or not.

    No, the data was not conflicting. As said, fructose does not convert to fat - it is converted to glucose (simply put). And note that glycogen and glucose are not the same thing; glycogen is made up of glucose molecule (i.e. it breaks down to glucose).

    I recommend that you actually get a physiology and nutrition textbook, to see how each macronutrient is digested and absorbed and then oxidized in the body (i.e. the metabolic pathways that it goes through, etc.).


    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Not necessarily. Glucose has a different metabolic pathway. I want to say that galactose is similiar to fructose... although I don't have the time or the citations to back that up that statement at the moment.
    Galactose and fructose are both monosaccharides and are digested the same way, absorbed through the lining in the small intestine and transported to the liver, where they are mainly converted to glucose (Wardlaw & Hampl, 2007), yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Scott View Post
    I would consider "high" fat anything over 40% of your daily caloric intake, but that's just me. Everyone has their own opinions on what is high or not.

    No, the data was not conflicting. As said, fructose does not convert to fat - it is converted to glucose (simply put). And note that glycogen and glucose are not the same thing; glycogen is made up of glucose molecule (i.e. it breaks down to glucose).

    I recommend that you actually get a physiology and nutrition textbook, to see how each macronutrient is digested and absorbed and then oxidized in the body (i.e. the metabolic pathways that it goes through, etc.).




    Galactose and fructose are both monosaccharides and are digested the same way, absorbed through the lining in the small intestine and transported to the liver, where they are mainly converted to glucose (Wardlaw & Hampl, 2007), yes.

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    i actually have a Bachelors in nutrition but we never covered this topic specifically, we covered carb digestion in general never fructose specifically....

    and when i approached the teacher about it she blew me off because the study was not fruit friendly, (nice to have open minded professors huh...)

    either way i was reaching for an answer, and thank you very much for the info rosie, it makes sense and i forgot that all to important detail that the rats were fed high fat and high fructose corn syrup..... makes a LARGE difference.....

    great info guys thank you very much....

    NOW WHO HAS THE GI FOR BROWN RICE SYRUP??
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    Quote Originally Posted by JN230 View Post
    i actually have a Bachelors in nutrition but we never covered this topic specifically, we covered carb digestion in general never fructose specifically....

    and when i approached the teacher about it she blew me off because the study was not fruit friendly, (nice to have open minded professors huh...)

    either way i was reaching for an answer, and thank you very much for the info rosie, it makes sense and i forgot that all to important detail that the rats were fed high fat and high fructose corn syrup..... makes a LARGE difference.....

    great info guys thank you very much....

    NOW WHO HAS THE GI FOR BROWN RICE SYRUP??
    Interesting professor . . .

    No worries. And yes, fructose from fruit and fructose from high fructose corn syrup are two VERY different animals - no way can you make any comparisons!

    Re brown rice syrup GI, it's ~25 (this should be in a table in the back of one of your nutrition textbooks).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post

    I recommend that you actually get a physiology and nutrition textbook, to see how each macronutrient is digested and absorbed and then oxidized in the body (i.e. the metabolic pathways that it goes through, etc.).
    Do you have any texts that you recommend. I have a few cell and physiology books from school. But are there any that like in particular?
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    The same rule applies to fruits with high GI....?
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    **** i wish my books had a complete GI listing.... none of the ones i had have it
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    The same rule applies to fruits with high GI....?
    What rule?
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    Quote Originally Posted by crush22 View Post
    Do you have any texts that you recommend. I have a few cell and physiology books from school. But are there any that like in particular?
    There are a few I refer back to all the time (you may have something different here in the US):

    Burke, L. & Deakin, V. (Eds.). Clinical sports nutrition (3rd ed.). (p. 175-199). NSW, Australia: McGraw Hill.

    Marieb, E. N. (2004). Human anatomy and physiology (6th ed.). San Francisco: Pearson Benjamin Cummings.

    McArdle, W. D., Katch, F. I. & Katch, V. L. (1991). Exercise physiology: Energy, nutrition and human performance (3rd ed.). United States of America: Lea & Febiger.

    Wardlaw, G. M. & Hampl, J. S. (2007). Perspectives in nutrition (7th ed.). Mc-Graw Hill: New York, New York, USA.

    Any decent textbook will cover this.


    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    The same rule applies to fruits with high GI....?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    What rule?
    ^^^??? There is no "rule" re fruit . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    Fructose is a MONOSACCHARIDE. It does NOT need to be converted to ANything for digestion, as it is ALREADY in the simplest form of glycogen molecule, which is moved through the cells of the small intestine lining via active transport and are washed away in the circulating blood, which then takes them to the liver to be converted into glucose. NO fat conversion anywhere (Wardlaw & Hampl, 2007).

    So, not sure what you are reading. There WAS a study done by Shapiro, et al. (2008) that indicated "that chronic fructose consumption induces leptin resistance prior to body weight, adiposity, serum leptin, insulin, or glucose increases, and this fructose-induced leptin resistance accelerates high-fat induced obesity." (Shapiro, et al., 2008, p. R1374), but this in in CONJUNCTION with a HIGH-FAT diet and other factors are involved, and it was specific to testing "the hypothesis that chronic fructose feeding induces leptin resistance, which in turn could predispose animals to increased weight gain in response to a high-fat diet." (Shapiro, et al., 2008, p. R1374). ANIMALS. IN CONJUNCTION WITH HIGH-FAT DIETS. You need to really READ research articles.

    On the subject of leptin resistance, yes, this can occur, but like almost everything, it IS reversible.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    What rule?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    this man
    There was no rule mentioned there - it was just about the digestion of monosachharides and discussion on a study. If you are talking re digestion of fruit, since all fruit is fructose, then yes, regardless of GI, then it is going to be digested the SAME way.

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    So the ideal post-workout carb would be something with lots of fructose since it goes directly to the liver to be converted to glucose?

    On that note wouldn't ANY type of monosaccharide be a good post-workout carb?

    I take 20 oz of gatorade with my creatine and beta alanine after I workout. It has sucrose and dextrose, a DISACCHARIDE and MONOSACCHARIDE. I know the DI takes longer to digest so would I be better off making my own blend of say... water and table sugar instead?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILL DA BEAST View Post
    So the ideal post-workout carb would be something with lots of fructose since it goes directly to the liver to be converted to glucose?

    On that note wouldn't ANY type of monosaccharide be a good post-workout carb?

    I take 20 oz of gatorade with my creatine and beta alanine after I workout. It has sucrose and dextrose, a DISACCHARIDE and MONOSACCHARIDE. I know the DI takes longer to digest so would I be better off making my own blend of say... water and table sugar instead?
    There is no ideal carb (or food for that matter). IMO it is possible to argue that one might be better but it would really depend on the context.

    The time difference between when carbs from gatorade and something like fruit juice start being absorbed into your blood stream is a matter of minutes. However gatorade has refined carbs and empty calories. Is the sake of a few minutes worth consuming junk food? Your call.
  

  
 

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