Carb Timing and overall importance of carbs.

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    Carb Timing and overall importance of carbs.


    So all these years its seems I have overlooked a very important part of bodybuilding and I think it possibly could be what inhibiting my gains. Post workout I NEVER consume carbs. I just take a protein shake. Then I heard about carb timing for Pro Hormones and it got me thinking maybe carbs are the reason i'm not gaining, so I decided to look into carbs when your not on PH's. From what I found it seems like carbs post workout and even Low Gylcemic Index carbs pre-workout are very important for making gains. I just wanted to come here to confirm this and get some advice on when and what carbs I should be taking in.


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    Quote Originally Posted by redline2101 View Post
    So all these years its seems I have overlooked a very important part of bodybuilding and I think it possibly could be what inhibiting my gains. Post workout I NEVER consume carbs. I just take a protein shake. Then I heard about carb timing for Pro Hormones and it got me thinking maybe carbs are the reason i'm not gaining, so I decided to look into carbs when your not on PH's. From what I found it seems like carbs post workout and even Low Gylcemic Index carbs pre-workout are very important for making gains. I just wanted to come here to confirm this and get some advice on when and what carbs I should be taking in.
    You'll get a very mixed response when it comes to timing carbohydrates (CHO) around training and even how much you should consume in general.

    If you're training is very high intensity and volume, in my personal opinion and from experience, I think CHO should be timed:

    Pre-Workout - mainly starchy/moderate glycaemic index (GI)/load (L) (oats, sweet potatoes, dairy products, brown rice, wholewheat pasta, wholemeal bread etc.), at least 1.5-3 hours before training to allow for digestion.

    Immediately Prior to (<30minutes) and sipped on during training - High GI/L CHOs waxy maize starch or glucose polymer drink (e.g. gatorade, lucozade sport, Perfect Carb, Carb Slam), with BCAAs/EAAs and Beta Alanine.

    Immediately Post Training - Whey protein shake (Isolate or Concentrate) with Waxy Maize Starch and glucose polymers, creatine monohydrate/ethyl ester, R-ALA or Banaba Extract (or another insulin mimicker such as Anabolic Pump, Neovar Recomped)

    1-1.5 hours post training - Full Meal, encompassing a high Biological Value protein source (meat, eggs, dairy or soy), a low GI source of CHO (certain fruits and dark green, leafy vegetables) and healthy fats (almonds, walnuts, fish oil, UDO's choice, Olive Oil, Coconut Oil).

    Hope this helps mate, you'll get other opinions on this topic so I'll let others chime in,

    - Rick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    You'll get a very mixed response when it comes to timing carbohydrates (CHO) around training and even how much you should consume in general.

    If you're training is very high intensity and volume, in my personal opinion and from experience, I think CHO should be timed:

    Pre-Workout - mainly starchy/moderate glycaemic index (GI)/load (L) (oats, sweet potatoes, dairy products, brown rice, wholewheat pasta, wholemeal bread etc.), at least 1.5-3 hours before training to allow for digestion.

    Immediately Prior to (<30minutes) and sipped on during training - High GI/L CHOs waxy maize starch or glucose polymer drink (e.g. gatorade, lucozade sport, Perfect Carb, Carb Slam), with BCAAs/EAAs and Beta Alanine.

    Immediately Post Training - Whey protein shake (Isolate or Concentrate) with Waxy Maize Starch and glucose polymers, creatine monohydrate/ethyl ester, R-ALA or Banaba Extract (or another insulin mimicker such as Anabolic Pump, Neovar Recomped)

    1-1.5 hours post training - Full Meal, encompassing a high Biological Value protein source (meat, eggs, dairy or soy), a low GI source of CHO (certain fruits and dark green, leafy vegetables) and healthy fats (almonds, walnuts, fish oil, UDO's choice, Olive Oil, Coconut Oil).

    Hope this helps mate, you'll get other opinions on this topic so I'll let others chime in,

    - Rick.
    Great post man!

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    Exercise also upregulates glut1 (non insulin dependant pathway) so high sugar PWO isnt really even needed.. you can get your aminos/nutrients into the muscle cell which a high quality whey some oats and leucine

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Exercise also upregulates glut1 (non insulin dependant pathway) so high sugar PWO isnt really even needed.. you can get your aminos/nutrients into the muscle cell which a high quality whey some oats and leucine
    I agree mate, oats, leucine and AAs postworkout would also be a great combo, but in terms of speed of nutrient delivery to the muscle I think the protocol I posted above would be faster as it requires little to no digestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    I agree mate, oats, leucine and AAs postworkout would also be a great combo, but in terms of speed of nutrient delivery to the muscle I think the protocol I posted above would be faster as it requires little to no digestion.
    but replenishing glycogen super fast is not even needed, youll replenish allll day long, plus the intra stuff if you us it is just something you dont need. unless its no more then 10g carbs its not something id reccommend. ive tried it never did much for me.

    but remember with waxymaize for every like 60g it can only handle another 10g of supps otherwise it can throw off the weight and wont digest as fast, i remember reading that from PA a while back.

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    I agree with both UKStrength as well as crazyfool405. Now let me give you might insight...

    I too found out the hardway of how important carbohydrate timing is, specifically for insulin and blood sugar. If you're like me, then controlling insulin and blood sugar is the most vital part of my training next to keeping a high nitrogen balance (Protein and AAs). If you can do this, you can reach you're goals faster than ever. There are relatively 4 main times when I ingest carbs. Meal 1, Pre-Workout, Post-Workout, and the meal following Post-Workout.

    For Meal 1 it's always Oats, Wheat Bran, cinammon and fruit (usually bananas and berries, sometimes green apples). For me there is no better CHO than Oats, nothing beats it. A bodybuilder can use oats for his primary need of carbs and can almost garauntee he/she will be successful.

    For Pre-Workout it consists of WMS and Whey. I'll usually pull about 50g of WMS and 25-40g of whey. I take this about 1.5-2 hours before I workout to let it settle.

    Now Intra-Workout, I don't use any carbs, I use EAAs (PW at the moment). The only carbs I take in during Intra are the trace amounts in Purple Wraath, if any.

    Post-Workout, here's where I agree with crazyfool405. To be honest, it really isn't necessary to shoot yourself up with HI-GLY carbs, sure it might speed up the delivery but you're carbs are going to get to your muscles either way. What I do is take in 50g of WMS along with 40-50g of Whey. The reason being is, simple sugars just make me bloat and leave a crash-like effect afterwards. WMS is the best carb next to oats IMHO. Every positive note you might hear about it, believe it. For me there is absolutely no gastrointestinal issues and it goes down instantly. I seriously can take in like 60g in one session and have it feel like water, it's amazing.

    Finally, the meal following Post-Workout. Just like UKStrength advised, take in a high protein source along with any and every type of green vegetable you can get. I prefer brocolli, green beans, spinach, celery, and/or spring mix salad. Have yourself some quality fats like almonds, olive oil, or fish oil and you're good to go.

    Like I said, it's all about insulin control for me and by the looks of it, I rarely ever take in HI-GLY carbs unless it's strictly Intra or Post-Workout. I never take in HI-GLY Pre-workout, never. It makes me sluggish and blown everytime, which is why WMS is a God send. Carbohydrate timing is pretty simple and effective, you just have to figure out how you're body works. For some people taking in HI-GLY Pre, Intra, and Post works; hell, some even take it in all day long, pretty nuts. Also top this off with some quality insulin-mimickers and you'll be amazed.

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    Ive read that dietary fats shouldnt be taken in with post post workout meal because they slow down the gastric emptying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    Ive read that dietary fats shouldnt be taken in with post post workout meal because they slow down the gastric emptying.
    yes thats why you dont see them in PWO shakes

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    If your glycogen stores are full preworkout, then you likely aren't taking them down below 80-85% during your workout with no other nutrition added. Keeping in mind that the rise in body temp from intense workout also helps release fatty acids into bloodstream to be be burned in place of or along with glycogen. So worrying about putting down excessive carbs to refill stores is silly. Getting an insulin response PWO is nice for anabolism, but the smart way to do it is with 20g of dextrose and 5g of leucine, rather than trying to get it from all simple carbs. that will give roughly the same insulin spike as 100g of dextrose so it will make cell walls be more permeable and transport other nutrients WITHOUT there being excessive carbs to be transported into fat cells. At this point I actually avoid carbs for 3-4 hours PWO purposefully as your body going into "store glycogen" mode to some extent takes away from "store aminos" mode. I'm continuing to add mass slowly and cleanly with no fat gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    yes thats why you dont see them in PWO shakes
    Look into it, Im pretty sure the same was said about the post post workout meal. Ive seen quite a few people mention it just on this board alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    Ive read that dietary fats shouldnt be taken in with post post workout meal because they slow down the gastric emptying.
    That meal is generally when people have a true "bodybuilding" meal.

    Remember that there is also a huge difference in nutrition for performance and aesthetics.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    If your glycogen stores are full preworkout, then you likely aren't taking them down below 80-85% during your workout with no other nutrition added. Keeping in mind that the rise in body temp from intense workout also helps release fatty acids into bloodstream to be be burned in place of or along with glycogen. So worrying about putting down excessive carbs to refill stores is silly. Getting an insulin response PWO is nice for anabolism, but the smart way to do it is with 20g of dextrose and 5g of leucine, rather than trying to get it from all simple carbs. that will give roughly the same insulin spike as 100g of dextrose so it will make cell walls be more permeable and transport other nutrients WITHOUT there being excessive carbs to be transported into fat cells. At this point I actually avoid carbs for 3-4 hours PWO purposefully as your body going into "store glycogen" mode to some extent takes away from "store aminos" mode. I'm continuing to add mass slowly and cleanly with no fat gains.
    That's really interesting mate! I didn't know you could get the same insulin response from only 5g of Leucine and 20g of CHO!

    Any chance of a ref? Is the CHO amount LBM-dependent?

    Cheers for the great post

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    That's really interesting mate! I didn't know you could get the same insulin response from only 5g of Leucine and 20g of CHO!

    Any chance of a ref? Is the CHO amount LBM-dependent?

    Cheers for the great post
    Leucine is the anabolic trigger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    That meal is generally when people have a true "bodybuilding" meal.

    Remember that there is also a huge difference in nutrition for performance and aesthetics.
    very true~~~

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    That's really interesting mate! I didn't know you could get the same insulin response from only 5g of Leucine and 20g of CHO!

    Any chance of a ref? Is the CHO amount LBM-dependent?

    Cheers for the great post
    if I remember later i'll look for one of the studies on it. The amount may be slightly LBM tied, but roughly 20-25g dextrose and 4-6g leucine seems to do the trick from all that i've read
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    if I remember later i'll look for one of the studies on it. The amount may be slightly LBM tied, but roughly 20-25g dextrose and 4-6g leucine seems to do the trick from all that i've read
    i have a study on my laptop however its royally ****ed right now.

    its in a study that has to do with protein and ketosis,

    it basically states that leucine on its OWN WILL NOT increase insulin levels, but in conjunction with carbohydrates it greatly increases the insulin response.

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    Originally Posted by AntonG42O
    Ive read that dietary fats shouldnt be taken in with post post workout meal because they slow down the gastric emptying.
    Originally Posted by crazyfool405
    yes thats why you dont see them in PWO shakes
    I'm curious then as to why Muscle Milk contains dietary fats in their shakes, whether one chooses to take a shake down anytime during the day or PWO.

    And what's a post post workout meal? Is this the meal after Post-Workout shake? Probably be a lot easier to understand if worded, "meal following post-workout shake" but I'm curious to know why it would be beneficial NOT to ingest fats during that meal? I always cook my chicken with olive oil or sesame oil and even drizzle some on my salad and never have any problems with digestion. Hell, sometimes I even pop some fish oil with that meal if I need to up my fat intake.

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    yes thats what i meant, the meal after post workout shake. its a common belief that fats will slow the gastric process and will slow down the absorption of proteins and carbs. since your body is so extremely anabolic hours following the workout, some believe in avoiding fats during that meal to ensure quick digestion of p + c i guess.

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    So lately i've been having a large meal say 2 hours before my workout, whole wheat pasta, chicken/beef of some sort then 30-45mins pre workout a WMS shake. During my workout sipping BCAA's and directly after my workout WMS again.

    For my post workout its been pasta and meat again with veggies. but should i drop the pasta in my post workout meal and just make it meat and tons of veggies plus good fats?
    “We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is not an act, but a habit.”

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    what you should do is try it both ways and see which feels better, which helps you more with recovery, which has strength and mass go up more
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    what you should do is try it both ways and see which feels better, which helps you more with recovery, which has strength and mass go up more
    I've had my WMS sitting in a tub for ages and started it up again, already i've noticed that i feel much better after my workouts. kinda like a pick me up lol. and thats with a balanced meal 1 hour 1.5 hours post shake.
    “We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is not an act, but a habit.”

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