Protein powder vs Meat

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by theOCdude View Post
    Bro
    Well put.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Yes, you can. If calories in the meat are increasing muscle mass moreso than the WPI alone - then there's your answer, meat is more effective. However if the calories are only adding to the fat/overall mass as compared to WPI, then it's not relevant.
    What are you on about? You're coming off as ignorant. This study you hope to have could not exist; not without major limitations and it doesn't replicate at al real world conditions. Ergo, there is no reason to have this study.

    Also, meat contains a vast amount of fats and proteins; not mere protein alone. Therefore comparing protein shakes with meat would have to be balanced by adding something like EVOO into the mix to account for the saturated fats in meat.

    This is not even accounting for the amino acid profile of have WPI continually as your only protein source. You need a diverse range of aminos...

    If you have one group consuming more calories than the other (which will happen when ONLY comparing protein content of meat and WPI without accounting for total caloric intake) then the study is flawed. More calories = more potential for growth..
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What are you on about? You're coming off as ignorant. This study you hope to have could not exist; not without major limitations and it doesn't replicate at al real world conditions. Ergo, there is no reason to have this study.

    Also, meat contains a vast amount of fats and proteins; not mere protein alone. Therefore comparing protein shakes with meat would have to be balanced by adding something like EVOO into the mix to account for the saturated fats in meat.

    This is not even accounting for the amino acid profile of have WPI continually as your only protein source. You need a diverse range of aminos...

    If you have one group consuming more calories than the other (which will happen when ONLY comparing protein content of meat and WPI without accounting for total caloric intake) then the study is flawed. More calories = more potential for growth..
    That's rational

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Hi Jim, you are saying more calories = more growth. I'm asking for a study that proves that. Obviously more calories will give you more mass, but will it be more muscle mass or just more fat mass than WPI of the same protein levels. You're saying "more likely" - that's been my whole point. There are a lot of guys on here saying "more likely" - but none of them have been able to point to a scientific study. That is the whole reason for this thread is to separate conjecture from scientific fact backed by evidence.
    How about you provide a study which demonstrates greater muscle growth with less calories.

    And not just people gained mass on the 'velocity diet', I want a study that compares the velocity diet with a caloric excess at a minimum of 1.7-1.8g/kg/BW for protein.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What are you on about? You're coming off as ignorant. This study you hope to have could not exist; not without major limitations and it doesn't replicate at al real world conditions. Ergo, there is no reason to have this study.

    Also, meat contains a vast amount of fats and proteins; not mere protein alone. Therefore comparing protein shakes with meat would have to be balanced by adding something like EVOO into the mix to account for the saturated fats in meat.

    This is not even accounting for the amino acid profile of have WPI continually as your only protein source. You need a diverse range of aminos...

    If you have one group consuming more calories than the other (which will happen when ONLY comparing protein content of meat and WPI without accounting for total caloric intake) then the study is flawed. More calories = more potential for growth..
    Those are words you are saying - show me a study that proves that or it's not accepted as fact. If you have the same exact amount of protein, but meat gives you more calories, show me something that proves you will gain more MUSCLE mass as opposed to just taking the same amount of protein through WPI. Need to see a study, otherwise you're just repeating everyone else.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    How about you provide a study which demonstrates greater muscle growth with less calories.

    And not just people gained mass on the 'velocity diet', I want a study that compares the velocity diet with a caloric excess at a minimum of 1.7-1.8g/kg/BW for protein.
    Yes, I too would like to see a study like that - that's what I'm asking if someone has seen, because I haven't.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Also, meat contains a vast amount of fats and proteins; not mere protein alone. Therefore comparing protein shakes with meat would have to be balanced by adding something like EVOO into the mix to account for the saturated fats in meat.
    This is not even accounting for the amino acid profile of have WPI continually as your only protein source. You need a diverse range of aminos...
    No, it wouldn't. You haven't read the full thread so you're missing information as to what we're discussing. I KNOW meat has fats. I want to know if that matters for muscle growth/size. So I don't want to add EVOO to the protein shake, I want the protein shake to be low fat and see how the MUSCLE gains compare, not mass gains, muscle gains only.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Those are words you are saying - show me a study that proves that or it's not accepted as fact. If you have the same exact amount of protein, but meat gives you more calories, show me something that proves you will gain more MUSCLE mass as opposed to just taking the same amount of protein through WPI. Need to see a study, otherwise you're just repeating everyone else.
    You show me something that proves the opposite.

    Eating in excess to gain muscle (think: Bodybuilder) is a given; as you appear to opposing it or doubting it, you find a study that shows that eating in excess is not needed (which it is) to gain muscle mass (not merely developing muscle, but accumulating a large volume of muscle.

    You're the one challenging the 'status quo' here, you provide a study that contradicts that status quo .

  9. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    No, it wouldn't. You haven't read the full thread so you're missing information as to what we're discussing. I KNOW meat has fats. I want to know if that matters for muscle growth/size. So I don't want to add EVOO to the protein shake, I want the protein shake to be low fat and see how the MUSCLE gains compare, not mass gains, muscle gains only.
    Of course it does. Saturated fats are known to increase testosterone levels and lipids are NEEDED for the development of steroidal hormones (i.e. testosterone): more test = more muscle. Not to mention the other basic functions of fat.

    Read a text book about basic physiology then come back and see if that changes your mind.

    While you're at it, find me a study that validates that an Orange is indeed Orange and not blue.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Of course it does. Saturated fats are KNOWN to increase testosterone levels and fats are NEEDED for the transport of steroidal hormones (i.e. testosterone)

    Read a bloody text book about basic physiology.
    Blimes
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You show me something that proves the opposite.

    Eating in excess to gain muscle (think: Bodybuilder) is a given; as you appear to opposing it or doubting it, you find a study that shows that eating in excess is not needed (which it is) to gain muscle mass (not merely developing muscle, but accumulating a large volume of muscle.

    You're the one challenging the 'status quo' here, you provide a study that contradicts that status quo .
    Hi, you're incorrect - You are the one proposing you know an answer that meat creates more gains as a fact. The only thing I have said from the beginning is that I do NOT know which is better. That's why I want to see proof. So if you're claiming to know something as fact, then substantiate it with a scientific study, and not words. If meat is better, I won't care, I'll just know that it's better. If WPI is just as effective, then I'll know that. But until someone shows me a study, no matter how wildly insistent you are - it's irrelavent.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Of course it does. Saturated fats are known to increase testosterone levels and lipids are NEEDED for the development of steroidal hormones (i.e. testosterone): more test = more muscle. Not to mention the other basic functions of fat.

    Read a text book about basic physiology then come back and see if that changes your mind.

    While you're at it, find me a study that validates that an Orange is indeed Orange and not blue.
    I know more about basic physiology than you would care to know. As for your logic, again, it's flawed and unsubstantiated. Just because fat can increase it doesn't mean it's signifigantly so or would even register as a calculatable gain - leaving the counter argument, if it doesn't increase muscle growth measurably, than again the argument stands that WPI can be a replacement and not a supplement, keeping fat/calories down and still maintaining equivalent muscle growth.

    Guy, it's very simple - there's a study proving it, or there's not. And by all this back and forth, it's quickly becoming apparent that there is not a study. (that we know of) Therefore - no one knows the answer to this question. Regardless of how vehement they are.

  13. I'm not going to do research for you. If you are merely going to try undermine everything everyone has said, then we are not going to go out of our way for you.

    I guess you'll never know which is better.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    I know more about basic physiology than you would care to know. As for your logic, again, it's flawed and unsubstantiated. Just because fat can increase it doesn't mean it's signifigantly so or would even register as a calculatable gain - leaving the counter argument, if it doesn't increase muscle growth measurably, than again the argument stands that WPI can be a replacement and not a supplement, keeping fat/calories down and still maintaining equivalent muscle growth.

    Guy, it's very simple - there's a study proving it, or there's not. And by all this back and forth, it's quickly becoming apparent that there is not a study. (that we know of) Therefore - no one knows the answer to this question. Regardless of how vehement they are.
    There is no study that shows intakes of exclusive whey and exclusive meat; simple. End of. Noone would undertake it such a study as Rodja as already stated.

    If you want one, you are more than welcome to conduct one yourself, although I suspect that won't end well.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    I know more about basic physiology than you would care to know. As for your logic, again, it's flawed and unsubstantiated. Just because fat can increase it doesn't mean it's signifigantly so or would even register as a calculatable gain - leaving the counter argument, if it doesn't increase muscle growth measurably, than again the argument stands that WPI can be a replacement and not a supplement, keeping fat/calories down and still maintaining equivalent muscle growth.

    Guy, it's very simple - there's a study proving it, or there's not. And by all this back and forth, it's quickly becoming apparent that there is not a study. (that we know of) Therefore - no one knows the answer to this question. Regardless of how vehement they are.
    These are just words; show me a study that an increase in fat won't equate to an increase in muscle.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I'm not going to do research for you. If you are merely going to try undermine everything everyone has said, then we are not going to go out of our way for you.

    I guess you'll never know which is better.
    You don't have to, I was just curious if anyone has seen a study or just follows the masses blindly.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    There is no study that shows intakes of exclusive whey and exclusive meat; simple. End of. Noone would undertake it such a study as Rodja as already stated. If you want one, you are more than welcome to conduct one yourself, although I suspect that won't end well.
    You saying no one would undertake it is conjecture, not fact. It's not torture, it's just eating only meat or only WPI for a month. People do much more intense experiments - that's tame.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    These are just words; show me a study that an increase in fat won't equate to an increase in muscle.
    Correct, I too would like to see that study - I never claimed it as a fact, just a possibility.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    You saying no one would undertake it is conjecture, not fact. It's not torture, it's just eating only meat or only WPI for a month. People do much more intense experiments - that's tame.
    Ok, you prove me wrong by suggesting this study protocol to a group of researchers and see how they respond.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Ok, you prove me wrong by suggesting this study protocol to a group of researchers and see how they respond.
    My goal here isn't to prove you wrong, nor is it to go out and create a study, it's just to see if there have been studies done. It seems not. So when people say "get most of your protein from food and only use shakes as supplements", remember, they're basing that on absolutely nothing. I say do whatever the hell you want until someone shows you a scientific study - absurd watching one meathead say something and everyone else follows like ducks. It's one big game of telephone. No one cares to look at scientific data. As is evident by the amount of juice the community uses - seems like rational went out the window a long time ago.

  21. Cliff notes anyone?
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  22. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    My goal here isn't to prove you wrong, nor is it to go out and create a study, it's just to see if there have been studies done. It seems not. So when people say "get most of your protein from food and only use shakes as supplements", remember, they're basing that on absolutely nothing. I say do whatever the hell you want until someone shows you a scientific study - absurd watching one meathead say something and everyone else follows like ducks. It's one big game of telephone. No one cares to look at scientific data. As is evident by the amount of juice the community uses - seems like rational went out the window a long time ago.
    Ok, i'll go back to your original statement

    But my question is, can anyone link me to any "scientific data" that shows eating meat increases muscle growth more/faster than the equivalent amount of protein taken via WPI.
    Now; protein is not the sole determinant factor of muscle growth, you know this I assume? Had the statement read, "can anyone link me to any "scientific data" that shows eating meat increases muscle growth more/faster than the equivalent calorie amount taken via WPI" then thats a whole other point.

    Then you went on about how atkins doesn't promote the use of vegetables and then further onto the point that, for some reason, you seem to assume that a calorie excess is not needed for muscle growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Let me try this again: what would you propose to make up for the caloric difference? You can't make comparisons amongst groups with different caloric consumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Yes, you can. If calories in the meat are increasing muscle mass moreso than the WPI alone - then there's your answer, meat is more effective. However if the calories are only adding to the fat/overall mass as compared to WPI, then it's not relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yeah....if you have one group consuming more calories than the other group, then the study design is completely flawed and irrelevant. You would need to have equal caloric intakes for the results to be valid.
    You cannot compare data and draw conclusions that one is better than the other when calorie intake is not the same. Thats like comparing a high carb diet at 700 kcals per day against a low carb diet at 1800 kcals per day and, even if they are both in deficit, making the assumption that high carb is better because it yielded better weight loss. That is illogical.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Cliff notes anyone?
    -Don't eat veges in aktins
    -Eating in excess is not needed for muscle growth
    -Studies that compare different calorie intakes should be used to compare meat and whey and total muscle growth (read my post above)
    -Protein is the sole determinant of muscle mass gain and not overall calorie intake
    -We are meatheads and juicers

    Oh and i'm waiting for a scientific study that Oranges are indeed orange and not blue.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Ok, i'll go back to your original statement Now; protein is not the sole determinant factor of muscle growth, you know this I assume? Had the statement read, "can anyone link me to any "scientific data" that shows eating meat increases muscle growth more/faster than the equivalent calorie amount taken via WPI" then thats a whole other point. Then you went on about how atkins doesn't promote the use of vegetables and then further onto the point that, for some reason, you seem to assume that a calorie excess is not needed for muscle growthYou cannot compare data and draw conclusions that one is better than the other when calorie intake is not the same. Thats like comparing a high carb diet at 700 kcals per day against a low carb diet at 1800 kcals per day and, even if they are both in deficit, making the assumption that high carb is better because it yielded better weight loss. That is illogical.
    That was a mouthful. Still back where we started. Will repeat succinctly. Does whey protein isolate produce the same, less or more muscle growth than eating meat/egg proteins of the same protein value, regardless of fat content. That's the question. Show me a study or everything else is nonsense.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    That was a mouthful. Still back where we started. Will repeat succinctly. Does whey protein isolate produce the same, less or more muscle growth than eating meat/egg proteins of the same protein value, regardless of fat content. That's the question. Show me a study or everything else is nonsense.
    You're such a tool I don't know where to begin. All this energy spent on banter and you could have spent it on cross checking research and comparing information in studies and fitness articles all over the Internet. Argumentative lil prick that I'm willing to bet is about 165lbs at best and soft as a bitch and I'd say in the age group of 18-21 with that attitude . How do I know this? Well, your complete lack of experience is evident based upon your complete lack of knowledge that would have been gained through experience which in turn shows how dumb and immature you are with your senseless carrying on. Do us a favor. Post a pic of yourself that's real and show us where your at physically. Post some stats and change your attitude alil bit and you may get some respect on here otherwise go back to that other BB site and troll there. Kick rocks dip shlt!

  26. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    You're such a tool I don't know where to begin. All this energy spent on banter and you could have spent it on cross checking research and comparing information in studies and fitness articles all over the Internet. Argumentative lil prick that I'm willing to bet is about 165lbs at best and soft as a bitch and I'd say in the age group of 18-21 with that attitude . How do I know this? Well, your complete lack of experience is evident based upon your complete lack of knowledge that would have been gained through experience which in turn shows how dumb and immature you are with your senseless carrying on. Do us a favor. Post a pic of yourself that's real and show us where your at physically. Post some stats and change your attitude alil bit and you may get some respect on here otherwise go back to that other BB site and troll there. Kick rocks dip shlt!
    Aww you're cute Mike. Bet your girlfriends love when you rage incoherently. Sorry I'm just someone online so you can't flex your inexhaustible absurdities at me. It's so adorable that you've literally conceded the argument so primitively to the point, that you literally said "show me your muscles" Ooh ooh, me caveman, only way to know someone smart is if have muscle big ooh ooh! You're a treat for the academic world. How about this as an alternative plan. How about you go find your tweezers, so you can then find your remnant of a "member". Once that's done, say, "Juice no good for Mikey. maybe me work on brains instead ooh!"

    Your target demo of me is completely wrong, sorry you like thinking about about skinny young boys as your default - might want to look into that. In response to your opening statement, that's what this whole conversation has been about - there are no studies comparing the two. So, what do we take away from this? Rage and muscle is worthless and has no value on the Internet, so you trying to play that card is laughable. Two, write intelligently, don't embarrass yourself.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    That was a mouthful. Still back where we started. Will repeat succinctly. Does whey protein isolate produce the same, less or more muscle growth than eating meat/egg proteins of the same protein value, regardless of fat content. That's the question. Show me a study or everything else is nonsense.
    Now I understand where you are coming from; I think that message got jumbled up. Ok, from a purely protein standpoint, no. I doubt you will notice any difference WRT muscle gains.

    FWIW, I do think it is a good thing you are challenging people by asking where they obtained that information, but some of the things you posted earlier do not make sense from a research point of view. I get where you are coming from now but that wasn't so clear earlier, it was made to seem as though simply getting enough protein was more important than calories however I don't think this point was your intention.

    I will say that, although I doubt this is how you approach things, that it is important to mix up protein sources. Yes, animal derived proteins are complete in that they contain all aminos but they contain varying amounts with products being more dominant in certain aminos and others being more dominant in others.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post

    Aww you're cute Mike. Bet your girlfriends love when you rage incoherently. Sorry I'm just someone online so you can't flex your inexhaustible absurdities at me. It's so adorable that you've literally conceded the argument so primitively to the point, that you literally said "show me your muscles" Ooh ooh, me caveman, only way to know someone smart is if have muscle big ooh ooh! You're a treat for the academic world. How about this as an alternative plan. How about you go find your tweezers, so you can then find your remnant of a "member". Once that's done, say, "Juice no good for Mikey. maybe me work on brains instead ooh!"

    Your target demo of me is completely wrong, sorry you like thinking about about skinny young boys as your default - might want to look into that. In response to your opening statement, that's what this whole conversation has been about - there are no studies comparing the two. So, what do we take away from this? Rage and muscle is worthless and has no value on the Internet, so you trying to play that card is laughable. Two, write intelligently, don't embarrass yourself.
    Spin it any way you like douche bag. Won't be long before you're banned.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Spin it any way you like douche bag. Won't be long before you're banned.
    Look at the language you used and look at the language I used - who do you really think is more likely to get banned.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post

    You're such a tool I don't know where to begin. All this energy spent on banter and you could have spent it on cross checking research and comparing information in studies and fitness articles all over the Internet. Argumentative lil prick that I'm willing to bet is about 165lbs at best and soft as a bitch and I'd say in the age group of 18-21 with that attitude . How do I know this? Well, your complete lack of experience is evident based upon your complete lack of knowledge that would have been gained through experience which in turn shows how dumb and immature you are with your senseless carrying on. Do us a favor. Post a pic of yourself that's real and show us where your at physically. Post some stats and change your attitude alil bit and you may get some respect on here otherwise go back to that other BB site and troll there. Kick rocks dip shlt!


    What does his size, bench, weight, age, or anything else about him personally matter in regards to his questions or comments?
  

  
 

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