I3C/DIM Caps: Input Required

[Steveoph]

In the http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/108266-you-choose-next.html thread, many of you showed your support for I3C/DIM caps, however there are varying opinions on which is best. The poll options represent the different ways the caps can be done. We may also be offering bulk powders, which would allow you to choose your own dosing protocol.

Let's turn this thread into a productive discussion on the merits of I3C vs. DIM. Feel free to quote from previous threads, and explain your poll choice. Also feel free to discuss dosing schemes. For those of you unaware, I3C is Indole-3-Carbinole, and DIM is diindolyl methane , which can be made from I3C. Google will provide a general description of these 2 compounds.

 

[hardknock]

Yeah, been waiting for this thread...I have quite a few pieces of info on both ...

Be back after the Alabama/auburn game...

 

[crazyfool405]

theres a study out there that uses GENISTEIN and I3C and using them together, lets the other work better, and at a lesser dose, the study is on my other computer, ill post it up here thouhg for you all to see when i can!!!

 

[Ev52]

Le Magazine, January 2002 - Report: I3c Vs Dim

 

[strategicmove]

I thought we had a similar discussion in a different thread before the poll for the next NutraPlanet product was started?

 

[strategicmove]

I3C+DIM in one formula.

Some useful input here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/102402-any-chance-stocking.html

 

[hardknock]

I3C+DIM in one formula.

Some useful input here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/102402-any-chance-stocking.html

sometimes I feel like stevie wonder or ray charles!

 

[Steveoph]

sometimes I feel like stevie wonder or ray charles!

Well NP is looking forward to being Santa Claus

 

[ShiftyCapone]

Well NP is looking forward to being Santa Claus

As am i.... Just don't cross-reference me with either of his lists....I'd prefer a little blind faith.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Just so Im clear, will this be an NP branded product, or will NP simply carry one of the more trusted brands that are already on the market?

 

[crazyfool405]

here you go steveoph

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/7/2470S

 

[Steveoph]

Just so Im clear, will this be an NP branded product, or will NP simply carry one of the more trusted brands that are already on the market?

This will be released as part of our NutraCap line , AFAIK.

 

[Ev52]

If it was a combo, what would the amount of each ingredient be?

 

[Steveoph]

If it was a combo, what would the amount of each ingredient be?

We would listen to your advice and take the most popular/well reasoned option. If this does become a NutraCap, we want as many people to be happy with our choice as possible hence the poll/discussion. We're working with you, the consumers, to design the best product :thumbsup:

 

[saludable24]

progress update?

 

[donny]

I would rather see pure I3C caps over DIM, I3C is better supported.

 

[ari4216]

DEFINATELY JUST GO WITH DIM

"it should also be noted that all of the responses to I3C in cell culture studies, actually reflect the actions of DIM, since I3C is almost quantitatively converted to DIM in cell culture media at 37[degrees]C in about 24 hours. Most importantly, the implication made by Life Extension that DIM promotes breast cancer is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, DIM has recently been shown by leading investigators in this field to inhibit the growth and potential spread of breast cancer in vivo."

 

[ari4216]

DIM versus I3C effect on estrogen metabolism - Letter to the Editor

full article-http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_May/ai_85131533

 

[ari4216]

Not just that article, i have read lots of articles saying DIM is much better than I3C.

I3C converts to DIM to exert its effects.

Also i see that I3C has the most votes at this time, at least go with the I3C/DIM combination if not DIM alone.

 

[itln stln]

This link says that DIM is stronger than I3C, so I would go for the DIM. I am no chemist so I am going off what this says.

http://youngagain.com/magento/supplements/dim.html

 

[haiz69]

I wouldn't both with it if it had DIM in it. Straight I3C please.

If anyone is interested: http://www.discountanabolics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2317&page=2&pp=10&highlight=Zeligs

 

[Ev52]

I3C only please...

 

[Ubiyca]

I3C only is the way to go. Tried, tested and true.

 

[ari4216]

I think this debate is a little complicated, it seems like there are people,research saying dim is better or I3C is better.

If you do I3C,maybe you should add vitamin C.
"The importance of co-factors in determining how these phytochemicals behave is illustrated by what vitamin C does to I3C. If vitamin C is not present when cruciferous vegetables are eaten, more I3C will naturally form. If vitamin C is added, less I3C will form, but more of a different product will result from digestion. It’s called ascorbigen, and it can produce 20 times more ICZ than I3C. No one knows the significance of this yet, although it’s been suggested that ICZ may be able to change estrogen metabolism better than I3C or DIM."

 

[Steveoph]

Vitamin C is pretty simple to supplement additionally; I think most users would prefer us to do simply I3C and/or DIM, and you can just take 1/4 tsp of Vit C like http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/now-foods/ascorbic-acid-8-oz.html

 

[corsaking]

I3C only is the way to go. Tried, tested and true.

Dont understand why some are opting for i3c . The conversion process to Diim in the body is solely reliant on how effecient the enzymes are that do the conversion process I feel this will vary from person to person.

My vote goes with Diim ,Im not saying if you ingest 150mg youll absorb 150 mg but at least your off the starting block

 

[ari4216]

which one will be more cost effective in terms of results?

I think both I3C and DIM work,but which one will deliver the same results at a cheaper price?

 

[corsaking]

BioDIM contains DIM (diindolylmethane), a phytonutrient found in broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage and brussel sprouts. Studies show it works indirectly by changing the way estrogen is metabolized, from the æbadÆ pathway to the ægoodÆ pathway.* Consequently, BioDIM may play a role in the way the body copes with estrogens.* Dosage varies depending upon desired results
DIRECTIONS:75 mg to 300 mg per day with meals.

UK PRICE IS £25.95 FOR 60 CAPS ; 150MG PER DAY LASTS 30 DAYS .

Indole-3-Carbinol 250mg BY Vitamin Research Products
costs £24.95 for 60 capsules
DIRECTIONS:Two capsules per day One in the morning and One at night.
Again 30 days supply but your getting 500 mg of i3c compared to 150 mg of Dim. The Dim dose can be adjusted upwards but wont last as long
I3C is a naturally occurring phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables. I3C initiates a series of reactions in the body that culminates in the elimination of estrogen.* Researchers have observed that metabolism of estrogen occurs via one of two pathways: The æharmfulÆ metabolic pathway, 16 alpha-hydroxylation, or the æbeneficialÆ metabolic pathway, 2-hydroxylation. I3C encourages estrogen to take the least harmful path, a process that transforms estrogen into an antiestrogen.* Because testosterone converts to estrogen even in the male body, I3C may support individuals who take testosterone precursors

So based on UK PRICES BY THE SAME MANUFACTURER theres not much to choose between them

 

[bioman]

I lean towards a pure DIM product or a product where DIM is the main ingredient.

You might want to consider something like 60%DIM, 30%I3C and the remainder bioprene and/or soy lecithin/phosphatidyl choline to improve absorption. I will be toying with a mix like this once the raws arrive.

 

[strategicmove]

I lean towards a pure DIM product or a product where DIM is the main ingredient.

You might want to consider something like 60%DIM, 30%I3C and the remainder bioprene and/or soy lecithin/phosphatidyl choline to improve absorption. I will be toying with a mix like this once the raws arrive.

Great suggestion! I have always argued for a blend of DIM and I3C. I definitely support your proposal of about 30% I3C in the blend. Well done! :thumbsup:

 

[saludable24]

I lean towards a pure DIM product or a product where DIM is the main ingredient.

You might want to consider something like 60%DIM, 30%I3C and the remainder bioprene and/or soy lecithin/phosphatidyl choline to improve absorption. I will be toying with a mix like this once the raws arrive.

I like this idea as well. I lean more towards DIM only, but this would be great, kind of a best of both worlds. Throw is some T-Rez and you would have some REAL nice E modulation.

 

[corsaking]

I like this idea as well. I lean more towards DIM only, but this would be great, kind of a best of both worlds. Throw is some T-Rez and you would have some REAL nice E modulation.

Dim is more powerful that T res and in my view would serve no purpose as an added ingredient Not only that the correct dosage to have an effect seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer -Stoked for example is 1200 mg per day , RES-V is 300 mg perday.
Also if this becomes a cocktail of ingredients its going to affect price.Lets keep it simple.

 

[pistonpump]

i went with i3c only on this one.
sure the goal is dim conversion but i have read in the past, posts from dinoii (the guy to ask on this) and you get added benefiets from i3c that you dont with straight dim. A dim/i3c combo sounds alot better but i dont think that will be more cost effective as just one straight up. one or the other, no combos. 200-250mg i3c caps is my vote.

 

[Ubiyca]

I think someone should ask a brilliant mind like Patrick Arnold which is better DIM or I3C, that would about clear things up wouldn't you say?

 

[corsaking]

I think someone should ask a brilliant mind like Patrick Arnold which is better DIM or I3C, that would about clear things up wouldn't you say?

This extract was taken from Patrick Arnolds write up about 6 oxo

After chrysin there was Indole-3-carbinol and Di-indoylmethane. These related compounsds work by shifting the metabolism of estrogens away from strong estrogen compounds (16-hydroxylated) and towards weaker estrogens (2-hydroxylated). This can have benefits for women prone to breast cancer as 16-hydroxylated estrogens are quite notorious for promoting estrogen dependent breast cancer. However, there has never been any benefit demonstrated in men for reducing estrogen related effects or for increasing androgen levels. In fact, these compounds may actually REDUCE androgen levels. So for males looking to reduce estrogen and raise testosterone, I-3-C and DIM are poor choices.

In addition to these aforementioned compounds there have been a slew of other compounds sold for estrogen control purposes. These include bioflavonoids such as quercitin, herbs such as Vitex Agnus Castus, and phytochemicals such as resveratrol (3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene). None of these has ever been substantiated by any research to reduce estrogen levels or to increase testosterone levels
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/6-oxo.htm for
full text
However you could be synical and say " well he would say that since he was promoting 6 oxo"

 

[Ubiyca]

This extract was taken from Patrick Arnolds write up about 6 oxo

After chrysin there was Indole-3-carbinol and Di-indoylmethane. These related compounsds work by shifting the metabolism of estrogens away from strong estrogen compounds (16-hydroxylated) and towards weaker estrogens (2-hydroxylated). This can have benefits for women prone to breast cancer as 16-hydroxylated estrogens are quite notorious for promoting estrogen dependent breast cancer. However, there has never been any benefit demonstrated in men for reducing estrogen related effects or for increasing androgen levels. In fact, these compounds may actually REDUCE androgen levels. So for males looking to reduce estrogen and raise testosterone, I-3-C and DIM are poor choices.

In addition to these aforementioned compounds there have been a slew of other compounds sold for estrogen control purposes. These include bioflavonoids such as quercitin, herbs such as Vitex Agnus Castus, and phytochemicals such as resveratrol (3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene). None of these has ever been substantiated by any research to reduce estrogen levels or to increase testosterone levels
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/6-oxo.htm for
full text
However you could be synical and say " well he would say that since he was promoting 6 oxo"

well he would say that since he was promoting 6 oxo

 

[corsaking]

well he would say that since he was promoting 6 oxo

I said that -are you copying?

 

[corsaking]

I think someone should ask a brilliant mind like Patrick Arnold which is better DIM or I3C, that would about clear things up wouldn't you say?

You did ask for input from P A -are you now disputing his information You seem to think highly of him ="brilliant mind"

Dont you like what youve read?

 

[Flyboy]

I think he was joking mate, in response to your "you could say...."

bit like "call me an ambulance!" "you're an ambulance..."

 

[hardknock]

I would rather not read from someone who has a vested interest in their own product; of course, he's going to down play the other regardless of effectiveness or non-effectiveness....he's done that quite a few times in the past.

 

[Ubiyca]

I think he was joking mate, in response to your "you could say...."

bit like "call me an ambulance!" "you're an ambulance..."

:box:

 

[corsaking]

im a firm believer in Diim others in 6 oxo -each to their own i guess
but 6 oxo is a popular supplement and some says its effective in what it does

 

[saludable24]

Dim is more powerful that T res and in my view would serve no purpose as an added ingredient Not only that the correct dosage to have an effect seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer -Stoked for example is 1200 mg per day , RES-V is 300 mg perday.
Also if this becomes a cocktail of ingredients its going to affect price.Lets keep it simple.

I wasn't suggesting a cocktail, just concomitant use of 2 separate products. IC3/DIM for changing E metabolism and Resveratrol for it's SERM-like properties. 2 distinct actions that complement each other.

 

[pistonpump]

dinoii is very knowledgable his posts carry weight in my book. PA is usually on an agenda to make other companies look bad imo.

 

[Ev52]

any eta or decision?

 

[stxnas]

This extract was taken from Patrick Arnolds write up about 6 oxo

After chrysin there was Indole-3-carbinol and Di-indoylmethane. These related compounsds work by shifting the metabolism of estrogens away from strong estrogen compounds (16-hydroxylated) and towards weaker estrogens (2-hydroxylated). This can have benefits for women prone to breast cancer as 16-hydroxylated estrogens are quite notorious for promoting estrogen dependent breast cancer. However, there has never been any benefit demonstrated in men for reducing estrogen related effects or for increasing androgen levels. In fact, these compounds may actually REDUCE androgen levels. So for males looking to reduce estrogen and raise testosterone, I-3-C and DIM are poor choices.

In addition to these aforementioned compounds there have been a slew of other compounds sold for estrogen control purposes. These include bioflavonoids such as quercitin, herbs such as Vitex Agnus Castus, and phytochemicals such as resveratrol (3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene). None of these has ever been substantiated by any research to reduce estrogen levels or to increase testosterone levels
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/6-oxo.htm for
full text
However you could be synical and say " well he would say that since he was promoting 6 oxo"

PA obviously changed his mind about Trans-Res and, to an extent, quercetin. 6-Oxo Extreme anybody?

Bump for an update!!!

 

[corsaking]

PA obviously changed his mind about Trans-Res and, to an extent, quercetin. 6-Oxo Extreme anybody?

Bump for an update!!!

Could have been added to keep up with trends and to be seen as an attractive alternative to similar supplements , thereby keeping up with the competition -just a thought

 

[stxnas]

I see what you are saying, but they were the first big company that I can remember using Trans Res

 

[scott72]

Seems like a lot of differing opinions on this. Why not just make both powders available and let people mix their own based on preference?

 

[crazyfool405]

http://www.integratedhealth.com/infoabstract/i3cab.html