Any chance of stocking Diindolylmethane (DIM)?

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    Any chance of stocking Diindolylmethane (DIM)?


    Just wondering if there were/could be any plans to stock this stuff in some form?

    The good quality stuff is ridiculously expensive over here in the uk but i noticed it's a bit more reasonable state side. Would be handy to be able to pop a tub or two into my regular nutraplanet orders!

    Thanks

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    I think a few boys on here know a site which has 25grams for $25US...

    Check some sex drive threads.
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    cheers dude, i'll look into it...

    Still hoping you might stock some though nutra!
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    We are aware of the interest for DIM/I3C and last I heard we were looking into it
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    Awesome...

    Why would i ever shop anywhere else
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    More interested in I3C....just throwing that out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    More interested in I3C....just throwing that out there.
    Hopefully we will offer both of them as there may be added benefit in using them in conjunction with each other.
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    just curious about IC3, I previously saw this

    " As shown in Figure 1B and C, I3C treatment strongly downregulated the production of AR protein. In contrast, DIM or TRYP had no effect on AR levels."

    from Screening of synthetic and plant-derived compounds...[Anal Bioanal Chem. 2008] - PubMed Result (you'll need access to article)

    sure downregulation of AR proteins would be.... undesirable... when one was looking to build muscle? Any info on this?
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    Im pretty sure DIM is stronger than IC3.

    DIM comes from IC3 I think!
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    Yes, I would much rather IC3 than DIM any day
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    If I had to choose between the two of them, I'd strongly prefer I3C to DIM. Fortunately, though, one does not have to make this choice. So, the best option would be to stack them!
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    A compelling study favoring the use of diindolylmethane over I3C demonstrated the fact that following an oral dose of I3C in humans, only diindolylmethane (and no I3C) was found circulating in the bloodstream of test subjects (12). This study used a highly sensitive detection method, thus confirming that I3C disappears after entry into our stomachs, with no direct benefits being attributable to absorbed I3C.

    This study also documented that over 90% of an oral dose of I3C is converted into non-diindolylmethane "condensation products" of uncertain structure, uptake and activity.

    http://www.dimfaq.com/site/cruchoice.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    A compelling study favoring the use of diindolylmethane over I3C demonstrated the fact that following an oral dose of I3C in humans, only diindolylmethane (and no I3C) was found circulating in the bloodstream of test subjects (12). This study used a highly sensitive detection method, thus confirming that I3C disappears after entry into our stomachs, with no direct benefits being attributable to absorbed I3C.

    This study also documented that over 90% of an oral dose of I3C is converted into non-diindolylmethane "condensation products" of uncertain structure, uptake and activity...
    I do not understand the message here! DIM is one of the metabolites of I3C, so it should not be surprising that once ingested, I3C would be degraded into its metabolites, including DIM. Consequently, high concentrations of DIM, and other I3C metabolites, but not I3C itself, should be detectable!
    I3C is a more balanced compound. While DIM is its most active metabolite, the other metabolites also have unique biological functions. This is why I prefer to take both I3C and DIM to obtain the full spectrum of benefits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    I do not understand the message here! DIM is one of the metabolites of I3C, so it should not be surprising that once ingested, I3C would be degraded into its metabolites, including DIM. Consequently, high concentrations of DIM, and other I3C metabolites, but not I3C itself, should be detectable!
    I3C is a more balanced compound. While DIM is its most active metabolite, the other metabolites also have unique biological functions. This is why I prefer to take both I3C and DIM to obtain the full spectrum of benefits.

    Some studies said not much of IC3 even gets broken down into DIM... just been googling..

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    strategic - I know you're a smart chappy, have you got anything to say about my question above re AR proteins? Would appreciate your input!
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    Interesting post by Dr. Houser about I3C


    Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
    (2) Estrogenic Channeling Agents

    Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)

    EVIDENCE-BASED EFFICACY: I have written extensively in various posts on my support of this compound versus its DIM metabolite as well as any other compound in the post-cycle realm from the category of “dietary supplement.” Perhaps the single-most important mechanism of action of I3C is modulating estrogen metabolism. That’s right, tell your friends – ALL ESTROGEN IS NOT CREATED EQUAL. Estrogen receptors are located on the surface of virtually every type of tissue in the human body. Guys, you too, are not off the hook as this applies to you as well.

    The body modifies (metabolizes) estrogens through two mutually exclusive pathways, which lead to compounds with dramatically different biological activities. Estradiol is the primary estrogen in circulation (as the example used above in Diversification Model) and one of the most active. It is metabolized to a number of other chemicals, all with some degree of estrogenic activity.

    Key here, are the enzymes 2-hydroxylase and 16-alpha-hydroxylase. Several years ago, scientists hypothesized that a preference towards the 2-hydroxylase pathway and the subsequent generation of 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1), results in less toxic metabolites in the circulation, which was subsequently gone on to support a decreased number of breast cancer outcomes if this were the dominant pathway (later, this proved true for prostate cancer as well). It was also around that same time that the hypothesis of greater estrogenic metabolism via the 16-alpha-hydroxylase enzyme would yield greater amounts of the more potent 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1) and a larger number of estrogen-dependent cancers would likely be the result.

    Summary of ORDET study of 2000 (always nice fancy acronyms)
    Participants: 10,000 Italian women
    Duration: > 5 years
    Measured Items: Diet, other breast cancer risks
    Findings: Increased level 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1 at beginning of study associated with less risk of breast cancer development.

    This simply set precedent, mind you – although there is a 1% risk for men to develop breast cancer, posting this study is merely the landmark to establish the importance of greater 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1 ratios being desired for decreased estrogen-sensitive cancer risk. This is very important information to someone embarking on post-cycle supplementation.

    Summary of Prostate Cancer Study
    Although there was a failure to achieve statistically significant results in this study, elevated 2-OHE1 urinary levels indicated a decreased risk of prostate cancer, whereas an increased 16alpha-OHE1 urinary level showed an increase of prostate cancer 2-times that of men with the highest levels of 2-OHE1.

    I3C modulates these pathways shifting the conversion of estradiol metabolism to favor the 2-hydroxylase pathway and the subsequent 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1 ratio is INCREASED, which correlates with a decreased risk of various estrogen-sensitive cancers. A potential caveat worth further exploration is the increase in production of yet another estrogen exhibited by some studies (4-hydroxyestrone – this is very potent). These increases were NOT significant, however, and as you will see and have seen in my various posts, are put out by people with vested interest in other products. There are multitudes of studies that actually show a concurrent DECREASE in 4-OHE1, so the mixed results tend to leave me questioning those trying to prove their various products superior. Catch my drift?

    In addition, and certainly not something studied, but the data seems to suggest shifts from the more potent (2-OHE1) to less potent (16alpha-OHE1) in a time when there is the potential for increased conversion (and this goes out to all of my aromatase-inhibitor-loving friends) – namely, during the post-cycle period would also contribute to a shift in dose-response curves to the right (and that is for my pharmacologically-inclined friends). We’ll see in the pharmaceutic exploration (parts IV + V) that this is NOT the entire picture – unfortunately, I can only address these items one by one in a certain time allotment.

    FORMS & DOSAGES: 200mg to as high as 400mg has been studied and based on available evidence, this is what I would be hard-pressed not to suggest at this time. There is no upper-limit established, but even while in the post-cycle realm, I would beg you to adhere to a max of 400mg per day as this is simply what has been supported to date.

    POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS / INTERACTIONS: Although it may seem obvious that a substance consumed over 1000s of years by millions worldwide is inherently safe, it has been challenged recently by those with vested interest in its metabolite DIM. I have expressed my concern at the challenges DIM supporters have offered and it is just plain bad science. Numerous cell culture, animal, and human studies have demonstrated I3C’s safety and tolerability, along with its targeted ability to SUPPRESS estrogen-receptor-sensitive (breast, cervical, and important for this discussion – prostate) cancer growth (sorry Dr. Z), and induce programmed cell death in a variety of tumors, including those associated with breast, prostate, endometrial, leukemia, and colon cancers.

    As an aside, the cytochrome P450 enzymatic system discussed above in the AT / ATD section within both the liver and intestinal track is actually STRENGTHENED by use of I3C – something that could prove especially beneficial to C17 alkylated users.

    CAUTION: Be careful of “research” supporting concurrent use of DIM – usual vested interest is a hand-in-hand with the funding of such studies.
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    Great post Dave.
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    should both products DIM and I3C be cycled?

    I assume that I3C is taken not just in pct as it has numerous cancer health benefits and hence such as green tea is a general good support supp to take all of the time.
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    Hmmmm...didn't know anything from me actually got posted over here.

    Understand that DIM suffers poor quality oral bioavailability. That said, this is NOT the only pertinent offering, but the thought process out there is that ICZ (another I3C metabolite) possesses most of the E-modulating activity.

    The DIM offering you usually are citing was from a very vested interest party and is VERY confounding. Try not looking at one study or one particular study group's offering in vaccum. That's not good research!


    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by small_guy View Post
    should both products DIM and I3C be cycled?

    I assume that I3C is taken not just in pct as it has numerous cancer health benefits and hence such as green tea is a general good support supp to take all of the time.

    ALL hormonal items should be cycled to some degree and this includes pharmaceutic offerings for chronic disease (i.e. - thyroid disease states, et al...). For anyone (inclusive of doctors) who suggest the contrary, this merely displays a dearth of understanding of the endocrine system at large and it is a sure-fire reason why we suffer as a society at large from a state of endocinologic disarray.


    The issue with green tea is that it also harbors pro-estrogenic (albeit phytoestrogenic) properties, so this should be used with caution as well. Again, anything possessing any level of endocrine disruption should be used with some thought design. Its not as easy a profession as many profess (albeit incorrectly too often).

    I encourage complete endocrine profiles yearly - and do not care the hefty price tag that comes with them. As many are very willing to spill all these extra dollars into so many other things, with the quick and dramatic changes that occur with hormones, this should be an investment everyone acknowledges for their health.

    Of course, people should play the odds. Many of my patients, I encourage as frequent as quarterly evaluations if not even more frequently like bi-monthly.

    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Hmmmm...didn't know anything from me actually got posted over here.
    Hope you don't mind D...I enjoy reading a lot of your posts on the various boards Some of the best stuff out their imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    ALL hormonal items should be cycled to some degree and this includes pharmaceutic offerings for chronic disease (i.e. - thyroid disease states, et al...). For anyone (inclusive of doctors) who suggest the contrary, this merely displays a dearth of understanding of the endocrine system at large and it is a sure-fire reason why we suffer as a society at large from a state of endocinologic disarray.


    The issue with green tea is that it also harbors pro-estrogenic (albeit phytoestrogenic) properties, so this should be used with caution as well. Again, anything possessing any level of endocrine disruption should be used with some thought design. Its not as easy a profession as many profess (albeit incorrectly too often).

    I encourage complete endocrine profiles yearly - and do not care the hefty price tag that comes with them. As many are very willing to spill all these extra dollars into so many other things, with the quick and dramatic changes that occur with hormones, this should be an investment everyone acknowledges for their health.

    Of course, people should play the odds. Many of my patients, I encourage as frequent as quarterly evaluations if not even more frequently like bi-monthly.

    D_
    Thanks very much for the info! Question- What does a complete endocrine profile have in terms of tests(or at least the most important parts) as I am doing a fairly comprehensive blood test in Oct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
    Just wondering if there were/could be any plans to stock this stuff in some form?

    The good quality stuff is ridiculously expensive over here in the uk but i noticed it's a bit more reasonable state side. Would be handy to be able to pop a tub or two into my regular nutraplanet orders!

    Thanks
    check out www.nuticentre.com a UK website.

    they can supply a VITAMIN RESEARCH PRODUCTS BIODIM 75MG PER CAPSULE.2 per day will last 30 days and priced at 25.95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    We are aware of the interest for DIM/I3C and last I heard we were looking into it

    thats what we talked about in my thread!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    We are aware of the interest for DIM/I3C and last I heard we were looking into it

    Yes we are! There are just a lot of logs in the fire right now for NP, so for Sam to pull the trigger on something new, there has to be a lot of demand.

    So...anyone else?? Bueller?
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    trust me i will buy my fair share!
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    I'd be very interested in I3C, not DIM so much. Just bought some NOW, but would obviously prefer buying from you NP guys directly
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    I'd be very interested in I3C, not DIM so much. Just bought some NOW, but would obviously prefer buying from you NP guys directly
    Anyone considering I3C over DIM should read the following link then make your own mind up how you want to proceed further

    http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/dimsafin.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    check out www.nuticentre.com a UK website.

    they can supply a VITAMIN RESEARCH PRODUCTS BIODIM 75MG PER CAPSULE.2 per day will last 30 days and priced at 25.95

    cheers, i don't know why but when i click that link it takes me somewhere else - i googled nutricentre and it works. go figure.

    Still pretty expensive though, especially considering the low dose... a bulk Nutraplanet bioavailable DIM would be just the ticket, but i may pick up some of this in the meantime as that's still the cheapest i've seen in the uk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    Anyone considering I3C over DIM should read the following link then make your own mind up how you want to proceed further

    DIM/I3C Safety Information
    ...I already posted a quote from Dinoiii explaining why I3C > DIM. Assuming you know who he is, I think that should be enough.

    Edit: To each their own though
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    ...

    Edit: To each their own though
    Yep!
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Yep!
    What's your thoughts on I3C vs DIM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    What's your thoughts on I3C vs DIM?
    I actually prefer both of them in one formula, or stacked. Together, they provide a more complete set of benefits than either alone, in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    I actually prefer both of them in one formula, or stacked. Together, they provide a more complete set of benefits than either alone, in my opinion.
    so the link to the safety information on I3C hasnt put you off then

    just how do both compounds together give a more complete set of benefits, please explain
    Last edited by corsaking; 09-19-2008 at 05:29 AM. Reason: word wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    so the link to the safety information on I3C hasnt put you off then

    just how do both compounds together give a more complete set of benefits, please explain
    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove
    I do not understand the message here! DIM is one of the metabolites of I3C, so it should not be surprising that once ingested, I3C would be degraded into its metabolites, including DIM. Consequently, high concentrations of DIM, and other I3C metabolites, but not I3C itself, should be detectable!
    I3C is a more balanced compound. While DIM is its most active metabolite, the other metabolites also have unique biological functions. This is why I prefer to take both I3C and DIM to obtain the full spectrum of benefits.
    See also Dinoii's post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    so the link to the safety information on I3C hasnt put you off then...

    just how do both compounds together give a more complete set of benefits, please explain
    There are so many safety warnings circulating around that, if one were to take them all at face value, once would not touch any supplements. Probably a bit exaggerated, but I can show you so-called studies that claim more than 2gr of vitamin C daily is hazardous. Dr. Linus Pauling, double Nobel-Laureate, did more than 10gr daily for decades and lived well past 90 years.

    Anyway, as we all know, apart from helping neutralize harmful estrogen metabolites by triggering so-called Phase I and Phase II detoxifying enzymes, indole-3-carbinol (I3C) also favourably improves the ratio of "good" estrogens to "bad". In particular, it raises the levels of the beneficial 2-hydroxyestrone compared to that of the harmful 16-hydroxyestrone. On its part, Di-indolyl-methane (DIM), the I3C metabolite, specifically addresses the potentially harmful estrogen metabolite called 4-hydroxyestrone. Both I3C and DIM may induce deceased-cell apoptosis and trigger DNA repair. This is why I prefer to take them both to get balanced, rather than lopsided, support.
    In the end, though, it all boils down to: "to each his own"!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    See also Dinoii's post.
    What exactly should I see there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    What exactly should I see there?
    Oh not you, I meant the other guy. It seemed like he hadn't read the previous posts in the thread.



    Off topic, but I see you are now the USPLabs Product Educator. Trusting your knowledge, it would be awesome if you could help us all figure out Prime, what exactly is in it and how it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    Oh not you, I meant the other guy. It seemed like he hadn't read the previous posts in the thread.



    Off topic, but I see you are now the USPLabs Product Educator. Trusting your knowledge, it would be awesome if you could help us all figure out Prime, what exactly is in it and how it works.
    I'm sure Ike's got the brain gears in motion. By watching the feedback from testers, we may be able to get a better understanding of how it works. For example, I've noticed quite a few people mentioning an Alpha-Male feeling (Even my person friend), despite the bloodwork done by USP on their 12 athletes that showed no increase in T levels. I think it might affect certain people differently, depending on their physical state/training experience.
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