Gorilla mind Rush

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Hello everyone I have been taking this for a couple weeks and I feel really great. I feel better and have been accomplishing a lot more things in life

I know you guys are pros and can tell me right away if this is good quality stuff or crap by looking at the ingredients


​Gorilla Mind Rush is made in a GMP FDA-certified facility in the United States and is packed with strong, high quality, clinically proven cognitive boosters.

DMAE (Dimethylaminoethanol): DMAE increases the levels of acetylcholine in the brain; resulting in increased levels of processing and transmitting of information, enhancement of mental concentration and focus [1], better memory and elevated mood [2].

N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine: The most bio-available form of Tyrosine, N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine is an amino acid that balances neurotransmitter levels in the brain resulting in increased energy and motivation, relief in the mind of stress and anxiety, and the improvement of mental focus and concentration [3,4,5].

L-Theanine: L-Theanine works by targeting four key neurotransmitters: GABA, Serotonin, Dopamine, and Norepinephrine.

These neurotransmitters are responsible for feelings of attention, stress, arousal, and pleasure.

By mitigating the over-activity of neurons, L-Theanine helps to calm down the brain, reduce stress, and get rid of anxiety [6].

This is why L-Theanine complements stimulants like caffeine so tremendously too, as it takes the edge off of stimulants that can cause jitters and over-stimulation.

L-Theanine also improves memory, focus, attention to detail, information retention, and motivation levels [7].

Alpha-GPC: Alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha-GPC) is the highest quality and most bioavailable form of choline, meaning it will work much better and much faster than standard choline.

After crossing the blood brain barrier Alpha-GPC provides the brain with a rapidly absorbed form of choline.

It also starts aiding in the synthesis and release of acetylcholine.

The surge of quickly absorbed choline in conjunction with the release of acetylcholine causes a substantial improvement in cognitive functioning, memory, HGH levels, physical performance, concentration, focus, and information absorption/recall [8,9,10].

Caffeine Anhydrous: The most well know central nervous system stimulant on earth, caffeine is well known for its’ variety of benefits in both mental and physical performance.

It improves reaction time, logical reasoning [11], focus, concentration [12], energy levels, mood, physical strength, recovery times [13], and body composition [14], among a variety of other benefits.

Di-Caffeine Malate: Di-Caffeine Malate is a precise combination of Caffeine and Malic Acid fused together using an ionic bond.

Comparing it to regular Caffeine Anhydrous, Di-Caffeine Malate is more mild, but it is also smoother, longer lasting, and doesn't result in excessive "jitters" or anxiety like you may experience from high doses of Caffeine Anhydrous. It is also more forgiving on the digestive system than regular Caffeine Anhydrous can be.

We split up Gorilla Mind Rush's Caffeine content into Caffeine Anhydrous and Di-Caffeine Malate to prevent the over-stimulated feeling that would typically occur as a result of excessive Caffeine Anhydrous consumption.

Bacopa Monnieri: Used as an anti-aging supplement that protects neurons in the brain from accumulative damage, Bacopa Monnieri acts as an antioxidant, cognitive enhancer, and neuroprotectant [15].

By increasing kinase activity in the brain, a faster rate of transmission is achieved which enhances mood, mental energy, information absorption/recall, memory, and reduces anxiety, as well as joint and muscle pain [16,17].

It may also produce mild amounts of euphoria.

N-phenethyl Dimethylamine Citrate/Eria Jarensis Extract: This fantastic stimulant supports a more uplifting feel than caffeine, and a euphoric level of sustained energy.

After crossing the blood brain barrier, Eria Jarensis Extract works by mimicking some of the brain’s own neurotransmitters, consequently activating those brain receptors and stimulating them to release more dopamine and norepinephrine.

This mechanism of action ultimately supports greatly enhanced focus, motivation, energy, concentration, mental acuity, mood, alertness, and even fat-burning potential.

2-Aminoisoheptane: Another fantastic stimulant, 2-Aminoisoheptane releases dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain through the activation of trace amine associated receptor 1 (which are trace metabolic derivatives of several popular psychostimulants) [18,19].

This mechanism of action ultimately supports greatly enhanced focus, motivation, energy, concentration, mental acuity, mood, alertness, and even fat-burning potential (much like Eria Jarensis Extract).

Eria Jarensis Extract and 2-Aminoisoheptane complement each other fantastically in this blend, and support a greatly increased drive to be productive.

Higenamine: This potent stimulant starts working extremely quickly (within 7 minutes of ingestion) and greatly increases fat loss, energy levels, focus and concentration [20,21,22].

Piperine(Black Pepper Fruit Extract): Allows the body to absorb and utilize all of the ingredients in this formula more effectively.

This ultimately results in greater bioavailability and benefit from each individual ingredient, as well as making the effects last longer [23,24,25].

Huperzine A: Huperzine A blocks the action of cholinesterase in the brain [26,27,28].

The result of this is increased levels of acetylcholine in the brain.

It also promotes neurogenesis (the birth of new neurons in the brain), protects neurons that are already in the brain from damage, and acts as a neuroprotective agent [29,30].

These high acetylcholine levels ultimately lead to greatly enhanced memory and cognitive function [29].

Huperzine A has been used in China as a herbal medicine for years, and it helps offset neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer’s via its ability to improve memory and acting as a neuroprotectant [30].

It also acts as a potent Somatostatin inhibitor in the body, resulting in greater HGH levels, which has a multitude of benefits for body composition and anti-aging
 
mad_canada

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Lol
Derek from one of the more popular sarm channels lost his enhanced athlete deal. He pimps the fuk out of this now.

I use modafinil, gorilla whatever is just another proprietary blend, and the lack of noopept and sublutamine make it just another ho-hum wanna be to me.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's the grand slam perfect synergy they claim.

Wouldn't ever pay $29.99 to roll the dice without knowing whats actually in it.

No nootropic should have a propriety blend. Ever.
 

MPMD

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Derek from one of the more popular sarm channels lost his enhanced athlete deal. He pimps the fuk out of this now.

I use modafinil, gorilla whatever is just another proprietary blend, and the lack of noopept and sublutamine make it just another ho-hum wanna be to me.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's the grand slam perfect synergy they claim.

Wouldn't ever pay $29.99 to roll the dice without knowing whats actually in it.

No nootropic should have a propriety blend. Ever.
Nobody lost any deal, my code still works perfectly fine on all available products brother.

In regards to Gorilla Mind Rush, yes I "pimp the fuk out of it" because I literally formulated it and have been promoting it since I launched it in 2017.

If you read some background info on the product, you would know that the reason there is a prop blend is because we didn't want anyone to rip off the formula. Most people who rely on a manufacturer or "supplement expert" to formulate their product are completely clueless when it comes to making a great formula as they don't actually use these products in their life at all, and are oblivious to the fact that manufacturers will run ingredients that aren't necessarily the best choices for an effective product (they will almost always suggest you use whichever ingredients give them the best margins and run the fastest on their production line as to not backup other orders they have to run).

In addition regarding the prop blend to protect the formula, this is not uncommon, and if you know what the efficacious dosages are of any of these ingredients as a vet Nootropics user and you look at the total mg amount on the label (3310 mg per 6 caps), it is quite easy to put 2 and 2 together and see that a full 6 cap serving is maxed out in every single ingredient in this product. Even half of that still blows all other mainstream Nootropic products out of the water.

As far as Noopept, that is not a DSHEA compliant ingredient, I actually had that in our original formula and had to remove it once I learned that anything that doesn't derive from nature and is blatantly synthetic is not a dietary supplement ingredient, and would no longer make your product FDA compliant. Anyone selling a formula with that in it is taking a gamble. Sulbutiamine is also synthetic, so that's a no go.

Trust me, if I could load up a Nootropic with things like racetams, I would.

If I could have, I would have kept the Noopept in there obviously, you have to understand there are ridiculous limitations in the industry. You can't just go down a list and pick out every ingredient you want and throw it in a bottle and say yep this is a dietary supplement.

If you are unable to put 2 and 2 together on the mg totals, feel free to shoot me an email and I would be happy to breakdown some more specifics on the formula side of things. I am not afraid to put our product beside any other Nootropic in the industry and confidently say that it completely smokes them.

Once this batch is done, we will more than likely open up the formula too on the next batch we manufacture just so we can avoid skepticism like yours. I didn't think we would have any push back from anyone to be honest, but there are still going to be individuals who want everything crystal clear despite the stated mg totals, which is obviously understandable.

We will be adding free samples to the site soon too so you don't need to roll the dice on your $29.99

And yes, you are wrong. I promise you that. I have had a script for pharma grade Modafinil for 6 years now, and I truly prefer Rush. Try it and tell me I'm wrong.
 

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Hello everyone I have been taking this for a couple weeks and I feel really great. I feel better and have been accomplishing a lot more things in life
Glad to hear you like the product man.
 
mad_canada

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Nobody lost any deal, my code still works perfectly fine on all available products brother.

In regards to Gorilla Mind Rush, yes I "pimp the fuk out of it" because I literally formulated it and have been promoting it since it launched in 2017.

If you read some background info on the product, you would know that the reason there is a prop blend is because we didn't want anyone to rip off the formula. Most people who rely on a manufacturer or "supplement expert" to formulate their product are completely clueless when it comes to making a great formula as they don't actually use these products in their life at all, and are oblivious to the fact that manufacturers will run ingredients that aren't necessarily the best choices for an effective product (they will almost always suggest you use whichever ingredients give them the best margins and run the fastest on their production line as to not backup other orders they have to run).

In addition regarding the prop blend to protect the formula, this is not uncommon, and if you know what the efficacious dosages are of any of these ingredients as a vet Nootropics user and you look at the total mg amount on the label (3310 mg per 6 caps), it is quite easy to put 2 and 2 together and see that a full 6 cap serving is maxed out in every single ingredient in this product. Even half of that still blows all other mainstream Nootropic products out of the water.

As far as Noopept, that is not a DSHEA compliant ingredient, I actually had that in our original formula and had to remove it once I learned that anything that doesn't derive from nature and is blatantly synthetic is not a dietary supplement ingredient, and would no longer make your product FDA compliant. Anyone selling a formula with that in it is taking a gamble. Sulbutiamine is also synthetic, so that's a no go.

Trust me, if I could load up a Nootropic with things like racetams, I would.

If I could have, I would have kept the Noopept in there obviously, you have to understand there are ridiculous limitations in the industry. You can't just go down a list and pick out every ingredient you want and throw it in a bottle and say yep this is a dietary supplement.

If you are unable to put 2 and 2 together on the mg totals, feel free to shoot me an email and I would be happy to breakdown some more specifics on the formula side of things. I am not afraid to put our product beside any other Nootropic in the industry and confidently say that it completely smokes them.

Once this batch is done, we will more than likely open up the formula too on the next batch we manufacture just so we can avoid skepticism like yours. I didn't think we would have any push back from anyone to be honest, but there are still going to be individuals who want everything crystal clear despite the stated mg totals, which is obviously understandable.

We will be adding free samples to the site soon too so you don't need to roll the dice on your $29.99

And yes, you are wrong. I promise you that. I have had a script for pharma grade Modafinil for 6 years now, and I truly prefer Rush. Try it and tell me I'm wrong.
OK, how about you hit me with a logging opportunity. I have pharma grade modafinil and wound like to compare.

I'll log it on my personal website as well as here.
 

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OK, how about you hit me with a logging opportunity. I have pharma grade modafinil and wound like to compare.

I'll log it on my personal website as well as here.
Sounds good, shoot me a PM with your website and email and we can discuss further.
 

kisaj

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I don't see why there is any comparison between modafinil and this product. Modafinil is not a nootropic by any stretch of the imagination.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Nobody lost any deal, my code still works perfectly fine on all available products brother.

In regards to Gorilla Mind Rush, yes I "pimp the fuk out of it" because I literally formulated it and have been promoting it since I launched it in 2017.

If you read some background info on the product, you would know that the reason there is a prop blend is because we didn't want anyone to rip off the formula. Most people who rely on a manufacturer or "supplement expert" to formulate their product are completely clueless when it comes to making a great formula as they don't actually use these products in their life at all, and are oblivious to the fact that manufacturers will run ingredients that aren't necessarily the best choices for an effective product (they will almost always suggest you use whichever ingredients give them the best margins and run the fastest on their production line as to not backup other orders they have to run).

In addition regarding the prop blend to protect the formula, this is not uncommon, and if you know what the efficacious dosages are of any of these ingredients as a vet Nootropics user and you look at the total mg amount on the label (3310 mg per 6 caps), it is quite easy to put 2 and 2 together and see that a full 6 cap serving is maxed out in every single ingredient in this product. Even half of that still blows all other mainstream Nootropic products out of the water.

As far as Noopept, that is not a DSHEA compliant ingredient, I actually had that in our original formula and had to remove it once I learned that anything that doesn't derive from nature and is blatantly synthetic is not a dietary supplement ingredient, and would no longer make your product FDA compliant. Anyone selling a formula with that in it is taking a gamble. Sulbutiamine is also synthetic, so that's a no go.

Trust me, if I could load up a Nootropic with things like racetams, I would.

If I could have, I would have kept the Noopept in there obviously, you have to understand there are ridiculous limitations in the industry. You can't just go down a list and pick out every ingredient you want and throw it in a bottle and say yep this is a dietary supplement.

If you are unable to put 2 and 2 together on the mg totals, feel free to shoot me an email and I would be happy to breakdown some more specifics on the formula side of things. I am not afraid to put our product beside any other Nootropic in the industry and confidently say that it completely smokes them.

Once this batch is done, we will more than likely open up the formula too on the next batch we manufacture just so we can avoid skepticism like yours. I didn't think we would have any push back from anyone to be honest, but there are still going to be individuals who want everything crystal clear despite the stated mg totals, which is obviously understandable.

We will be adding free samples to the site soon too so you don't need to roll the dice on your $29.99

And yes, you are wrong. I promise you that. I have had a script for pharma grade Modafinil for 6 years now, and I truly prefer Rush. Try it and tell me I'm wrong.
It's asinine to compare this product to Modafinil; it's not even similar.

So it's only a 15 day supply at 6 caps per day? Because at the standard 3 caps (30 day supply), it's 100% underdosed.

Also, what's the total caffeine content? It seems incredibly irresponsible to use a product with no idea how much caffeine is in it. I ask because two forms of caffeine are listed above the bacopa. Given that bacopa needs to be dosed at 300mg/day to be effective, that means that either your bacopa is underdosed, or you have an ungodly amount of caffeine (two forms with at least 300mg each).Can you clear this up?

Also, is this written by you? It's about the product and makes claims about the caffeine content, but I don't know who wrote it:
https://moreplatesmoredates.com/gorilla-mind-frequently-asked-questions/
 
muscleupcrohn

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I don't see why there is any comparison between modafinil and this product. Modafinil is not a nootropic by any stretch of the imagination.
This. And, in regards to the effects of Modafinil, this product does not, and cannot, compare.
 
mad_canada

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A lot of healthy skeptical thinking here. That's not a bad thing.

I've been sent a free bottle and will look at it as compared with other otc stuff available on Amazon and without pharma ingredients.

As for the modafinil comparisons, modafinil got a ton of publicity from the bulletproof exec and that film limitless, so obviously any nootropic will be held to that account.

Honestly, modafinil isn't even what people think it is. They're wring to assume it's a smart drug. It's a wakefulness agent and can help increase focus, on the rigjt or wrong things depending on a person's habits.

Regarding proprietary blends and under dosing I'm super skeptical when things aren't fully disclosed, and I won't change that, however if a company says "here's a free bottle. See how good it is," I pero my ears up a little.

I will say that sometimes a product can have a synergistic effect and that an ingredient that by itself should be dosed at 300mg can work at a lower dose if it has the proper base around it.

Going to be interesting to test and I'm giving it to a friend who's also a vet with nootropics.
 
muscleupcrohn

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A lot of healthy skeptical thinking here. That's not a bad thing.

I've been sent a free bottle and will look at it as compared with other otc stuff available on Amazon and without pharma ingredients.

As for the modafinil comparisons, modafinil got a ton of publicity from the bulletproof exec and that film limitless, so obviously any nootropic will be held to that account.

Honestly, modafinil isn't even what people think it is. They're wring to assume it's a smart drug. It's a wakefulness agent and can help increase focus, on the rigjt or wrong things depending on a person's habits.

Regarding proprietary blends and under dosing I'm super skeptical when things aren't fully disclosed, and I won't change that, however if a company says "here's a free bottle. See how good it is," I pero my ears up a little.

I will say that sometimes a product can have a synergistic effect and that an ingredient that by itself should be dosed at 300mg can work at a lower dose if it has the proper base around it.

Going to be interesting to test and I'm giving it to a friend who's also a vet with nootropics.
If you're comparing it to other nootropics on Amazon, you're comparing it to junk. 95% + of the nootropics on Amazon are underdosed garbage. Compare it to some actual good nootropic formulas.

As for "synergy," the burden of proof is on the person making the claims. We know that there's synergy between things like caffeine and theanine, as studies have shown it, but too many people don't know what synergy actually is. It's more likely that if the bacopa is underdosed, the product may still "work" and have benefits besides, or independent of, the underdosed bacopa; without a proposed MoA/etc, it doesn't make sense to say that other ingredients are potentiating or synergistic with the bacopa; that would mean one of them makes the bacopa work better.

I want to know the approximate caffeine content. Is it equivalent to one cup of coffee per serving? Two? Three? Without knowing that, it seems beyond irresponsible to use or recommend it.
 
mad_canada

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If you're comparing it to other nootropics on Amazon, you're comparing it to junk. 95% + of the nootropics on Amazon are underdosed garbage. Compare it to some actual good nootropic formulas.

As for "synergy," the burden of proof is on the person making the claims. We know that there's synergy between things like caffeine and theanine, as studies have shown it, but too many people don't know what synergy actually is. It's more likely that if the bacopa is underdosed, the product may still "work" and have benefits besides, or independent of, the underdosed bacopa; without a proposed MoA/etc, it doesn't make sense to say that other ingredients are potentiating or synergistic with the bacopa; that would mean one of them makes the bacopa work better.

I want to know the approximate caffeine content. Is it equivalent to one cup of coffee per serving? Two? Three? Without knowing that, it seems beyond irresponsible to use or recommend it.
I wouldn't say irresponsible. Come Tuesday it'll replace my two rock stars in the morning.

Let me elaborate and say that there are plenty of products that don't disclose their caffeine count on the market so if it were a law and they were not in compliance that would be a bigger deal.

You are correct they should be showing how much but they're not so I'll deal with that
 
muscleupcrohn

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I wouldn't say irresponsible. Come Tuesday it'll replace my two rock stars in the morning.
You do what you want, it's your body, but I think it's irresponsible to recommend someone using a product with an unknown amount of caffeine. I'm not even going to get into my thoughts on not disclosing the caffeine content on the product at all from the standpoint of the seller. If it is listed somewhere on the bottle, then I apologize, but I couldn't find it anywhere from what I saw online.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Is this article correct? 30mg and 20.83mg of caffeine anhydrous and dicaffeine malate, respectively, per capsule? So a total of 305mg per 6 capsules (well, actually around 274mg once you factor in the percent of dicaffeine malate that is actually caffeine).
https://moreplatesmoredates.com/gorilla-mind-frequently-asked-questions/

Also, this means that everything that's below/after dicaffeine malate on the label has to be dosed at less than 125mg for the max dose of 6 caps. So we're looking at less than 125mg of bacopa per day max. That's pretty low; lower than the half-dose of 150mg even.
 
mad_canada

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Is this article correct? 30mg and 20.83mg of caffeine anhydrous and dicaffeine malate, respectively, per capsule? So a total of 305mg per 6 capsules (well, actually around 274mg once you factor in the percent of dicaffeine malate that is actually caffeine).
https://moreplatesmoredates.com/gorilla-mind-frequently-asked-questions/

Also, this means that everything that's below/after dicaffeine malate on the label has to be dosed at less than 125mg for the max dose of 6 caps. So we're looking at less than 125mg of bacopa per day max. That's pretty low; lower than the half-dose of 150mg even.
At this point I think safe to say you're over reacting.

Bros on this board are putting mystery chems into their bodies, you're incredibly upset over caffeine counts.

This isn't whole foods.
 
muscleupcrohn

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At this point I think safe to say you're over reacting.

Bros on this board are putting mystery chems into their bodies, you're incredibly upset over caffeine counts.

This isn't whole foods.
Or I just don't understand how someone can come here talking about "efficacious dosages" and other companies trying to "give them the bet margins" when his formula is clearly under-dosing ingredients as well. He repeatedly makes claims about the bad things other companies do while doing them himself. Even the studies he referenced in his write-up on bacopa used 300mg/day, but he's using no more than 125mg/day MAX (at 3 caps it's no more than 62.5mg/day).

This isn't "Whole Foods," but it's also not exactly, or even close to, the best cognitive supplement on the market as has been claimed. Also, is this guy even allowed to come here advertising/discussing his product out of the blue? New user whose only posts are talking about his product.
Let me elaborate and say that there are plenty of products that don't disclose their caffeine count on the market so if it were a law and they were not in compliance that would be a bigger deal.

You are correct they should be showing how much but they're not so I'll deal with that
Of course it's not illegal; it's just irresponsible. The two are not inherently synonymous. Just because plenty of companies do something doesn't mean it's right, and I'd opt to only support companies who do things right. I'm not saying disclose the whole formula, but not even an approximate mention of "equivalent to X cups of coffee" or something like that?

Anyway, I've made my thoughts clear by now, let's see if this guy will come back and defend his formula and decisions.

He's the one saying:
I am not afraid to put our product beside any other Nootropic in the industry and confidently say that it completely smokes them.
I find this to be a laughable claim.
 
mad_canada

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Or I just don't understand how someone can come here talking about "efficacious dosages" and other companies trying to "give them the bet margins" when his formula is clearly under-dosing ingredients as well. He repeatedly makes claims about the bad things other companies do while doing them himself. Even the studies he referenced in his write-up on bacopa used 300mg/day, but he's using no more than 125mg/day MAX (at 3 caps it's no more than 62.5mg/day).

This isn't "Whole Foods," but it's also not exactly, or even close to, the best cognitive supplement on the market as has been claimed. Also, is this guy even allowed to come here advertising/discussing his product out of the blue? New user whose only posts are talking about his product.
Let me elaborate and say that there are plenty of products that don't disclose their caffeine count on the market so if it were a law and they were not in compliance that would be a bigger deal.

You are correct they should be showing how much but they're not so I'll deal with that
Of course it's not illegal; it's just irresponsible. The two are not inherently synonymous. Just because plenty of companies do something doesn't mean it's right, and I'd opt to only support companies who do things right. I'm not saying disclose the whole formula, but not even an approximate mention of "equivalent to X cups of coffee" or something like that?

Anyway, I've made my thoughts clear by now, let's see if this guy will come back and defend his formula and decisions.

He's the one saying:

I find this to be a laughable claim.
Once again, good points on your behalf. I personally do not know the nuances of the law, but I feel that using real nootropics like a racetam should be ok, but that an overly cautious manufacturer might say no to that for fears of having something that gets very successful being suddenly taken off the market due to a change in laws.

Actually, recently youtube started banning videos that have mentions of nootropics, no one knows the reason why.

A user who made a video on the "Natural Calm" brand of magnesium had the video banned and the channel put on lockdown.

My opinion on nootropics isn't all roses anyhow, I feel they usually do not work, and could lead a user down a slippery slope of addiction when they do work.

Im currently experimenting with mini doses of DMAA, around 10mg a day for work purposes, and even that I am cautious on because it gets out of control easily.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Once again, good points on your behalf. I personally do not know the nuances of the law, but I feel that using real nootropics like a racetam should be ok, but that an overly cautious manufacturer might say no to that for fears of having something that gets very successful being suddenly taken off the market due to a change in laws.

Actually, recently youtube started banning videos that have mentions of nootropics, no one knows the reason why.

A user who made a video on the "Natural Calm" brand of magnesium had the video banned and the channel put on lockdown.

My opinion on nootropics isn't all roses anyhow, I feel they usually do not work, and could lead a user down a slippery slope of addiction when they do work.

Im currently experimenting with mini doses of DMAA, around 10mg a day for work purposes, and even that I am cautious on because it gets out of control easily.
I haven't heard of videos being banned/removed, but if I had to guess, it may be people making illegal claims regarding what a product/ingredient can do. There are a lot of things that dietary supplements aren't allowed to claim to do/help with/cure/treat, etc, so if a product/supplement claims to, say, treat/help/cure/etc ADD/ADHD, that's a no-no. Again, I'm not sure if this is what happened, but it's my first guess.
 
mad_canada

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I haven't heard of videos being banned/removed, but if I had to guess, it may be people making illegal claims regarding what a product/ingredient can do. There are a lot of things that dietary supplements aren't allowed to claim to do/help with/cure/treat, etc, so if a product/supplement claims to, say, treat/help/cure/etc ADD/ADHD, that's a no-no. Again, I'm not sure if this is what happened, but it's my first guess.
Unfortunately no, not really

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kgpk5/youtube-is-removing-nootropics-channels

The user that had the video about natural calm had it removed because it said it promotes restful sleep which magnesium does.

If people better understood YouTube they'd understand that it's a money game, anything that talks about substances that change your mind YouTube gets nervous about because their advertisers get nervous

YouTube revolves almost entirely around a completely automated an arbitrary system of transcribing videos, using artificial intelligence to guess their contents and then deciding whether or not they ban them.

Human beings are seldom involved

So if a video has something that might appear taboo and the artificial intelligence algorithm picks it up you can expect it to be banned even if the video says something as simple as magnesium helps you sleep better and it's good for every single cell in your body and can make your mind better.

For what it's worth, natural, is available at all across North America has not been banned or restricted for sale anywhere, is completely 100% legal to.

It's not like some of the hormonal things like DHEA or pregnenolone which can actually change your hormones...
 
muscleupcrohn

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Edit: Looks like some videos were taken down by mistake:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/paxjvv/youtube-says-some-nootropics-channels-were-removed-mistakenl
One of the guys/channels that was mentioned was Ballow’s; I've had discussions/debates with him before, and he had incredibly underdosed products and makes silly claims about them and dosing. I wonder if he ended up making some claims that crossed the line, which wouldn't surprise me if I'm being honest? Not sure really though. Of course Ballow claimed it's a big-pharma conspiracy lol.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Unfortunately no, not really

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kgpk5/youtube-is-removing-nootropics-channels

The user that had the video about natural calm had it removed because it said it promotes restful sleep which magnesium does.

If people better understood YouTube they'd understand that it's a money game, anything that talks about substances that change your mind YouTube gets nervous about because their advertisers get nervous

YouTube revolves almost entirely around a completely automated an arbitrary system of transcribing videos, using artificial intelligence to guess their contents and then deciding whether or not they ban them.

Human beings are seldom involved

So if a video has something that might appear taboo and the artificial intelligence algorithm picks it up you can expect it to be banned even if the video says something as simple as magnesium helps you sleep better and it's good for every single cell in your body and can make your mind better.

For what it's worth, natural, is available at all across North America has not been banned or restricted for sale anywhere, is completely 100% legal to.

It's not like some of the hormonal things like DHEA or pregnenolone which can actually change your hormones...
I wasn't saying that magnesium is bad or a banned substance, I was suggesting that perhaps someone made an "illegal" claim about it? For example, theanine is completely legal, and is calming, but the second a theanine-containing product claims it can treat/help/cure/etc. ADHD, it made an "illegal" claim.

It looks like YouTube made some mistakes in their process. I said I didn't know exactly what was the cause, and that that was just my first thought on a potential explanation.
 

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Or I just don't understand how someone can come here talking about "efficacious dosages" and other companies trying to "give them the bet margins" when his formula is clearly under-dosing ingredients as well. He repeatedly makes claims about the bad things other companies do while doing them himself. Even the studies he referenced in his write-up on bacopa used 300mg/day, but he's using no more than 125mg/day MAX (at 3 caps it's no more than 62.5mg/day).

This isn't "Whole Foods," but it's also not exactly, or even close to, the best cognitive supplement on the market as has been claimed. Also, is this guy even allowed to come here advertising/discussing his product out of the blue? New user whose only posts are talking about his product.
Let me elaborate and say that there are plenty of products that don't disclose their caffeine count on the market so if it were a law and they were not in compliance that would be a bigger deal.

You are correct they should be showing how much but they're not so I'll deal with that
Of course it's not illegal; it's just irresponsible. The two are not inherently synonymous. Just because plenty of companies do something doesn't mean it's right, and I'd opt to only support companies who do things right. I'm not saying disclose the whole formula, but not even an approximate mention of "equivalent to X cups of coffee" or something like that?

Anyway, I've made my thoughts clear by now, let's see if this guy will come back and defend his formula and decisions.

He's the one saying:

I find this to be a laughable claim.
It's fine that you're skeptical, however, the only reason I'm on here is because I saw a thread pop up on Google with our product name, I clicked it, and mad_canada said some things that irked me enough to get on here and defend myself, and he convinced me to send him a free product.

Hopefully this clears things up:

1) I'm not advertising a thing, I came on here to clarify what I felt was a blatant misjudgment, and ended up giving away a free product for him to decide for himself. He's not bound by anything whatsoever to review it on here, and if he decides not to then that's completely his call. You can't even review a product on our site without a verified purchase, and even if he decided he did like it after trying it and wanted to push it on this forum (or if I did), you definitely can't shill products on boards like this as an affiliate without paying sponsor fees. If I was trying to drop a sponsor ad on here, I'd pay for it. I'm a prominent member and vetted on many other boards just like this. Keep in mind, I didn't ask for this thread to be made, I simply came on here to clarify a couple things that I felt were unfair to say without giving it a chance, or understanding that a product with the compounds he mentioned are not legal to sell as dietary supplements. If you happened to make and sell a (insert any product here) and you Googled it and saw someone speaking unfavorably about it without having used it, I'm sure you would be compelled to create an account to clarify what you felt was a baseless claim.

2) I didn't ask to compare it to Modafinil either, he said he uses Modafinil, so I touched on how it compares to Modafinil in my opinion, especially seeing as I have over 6 years of experience with it. However, like he mentioned, Modafinil is commonly used for focus and productivity (despite it being a wakefulness agent it has gained notoriety in the Nootropic world). And at the end of the day, the product isn't just supposed to be a "Nootropic" or else there wouldn't be exotic stims in there at all.

3) You are trying to calculate a Bacopa dosage based on numbers you can't determine. With all due respect, there are several components in this formula you couldn't possibly guess what the exact dosage is (e.g. 2-aminoisoheptane, Eria Jarensis Extract, Higenamine) and you are trying to assert you know for a fact there is less than a sufficient dosage of Bacopa in there with no possible way of determining that. There is well over 300mg in this formula. 400+ actually. How you are arriving at 125mg per day is beyond me. Regardless, we will open up the formula on the next batch and then you can rip me apart then if you want to. Or just get a free sample when they go up on the website and then rip me apart after you try it.

4) Yes that caffeine outline is correct you asked about from that article, and yes that is my article.

5) Yes I believe it is fair to compare to Amazon Nootropics, because frankly, those are the ones who run the industry we are in. The products are sawdust, but their marketing is on point, and those are the brands we compete against. If I could throw Fluorinated Modafinil, Noopept, Phenylpiracetam etc. into a dietary supplement and legally sell it, I would, however, as mentioned we cannot, so we are in the same battlefield as these Amazon brands and the Optiminds and Alpha Brains of the world. Fortunately, our formula completely smokes them (as I mentioned as well). Just need to nail the marketing. Again, this isn't an ad, you guys are inviting me to come on here to defend the product, so I am. None of you need to buy it or should feel inclined to buy it, this is simply me trying to clarify misunderstandings that just so happen to be on the second page of Google searches when you look up my product. There is the GMP Certified + FDA compliant side of the Nootropic industry, and then there is the other side that you would find in the sponsor sections on the likes of hardcore bodybuilding forums (the more exciting and more effective one in almost all cases, but cannot be classified as a dietary supplement). We are on the G rated side, as dealing with offshore merchants, horrible credit card processors that charge 30%+ per transaction and shut down bi-weekly once you start moving volume, among the myriad of other backend issues is not something we are willing to risk, or deal with. Fortunately, I know how to make something very effective even while maintaining compliance. If you want to compare a product on Amazon to research chems, analogues, or derivatives of Rx drugs, that's fine, although I don't think it should be done as they are in two different dimensions in regards to compliance and formulation options. For what it's worth, and what I'm trying to drive home, is I do think I have created something that is formidable in effectiveness to the edgy and non-compliant formulas sold by individuals who have significantly more freedom with what they use, but when compared to something else G rated (the industry we are actually in and compete directly with), we will blow anything you can find out of the water, and at a better price point.

Edit: 6) I just realized you're a Performax sales rep. Your Nootropic formula has 50mg of Theacrine and 100mg of L-Theanine and you're trying to give me a hard time over my formula... Come on man. Our non-stim formula has 200mg of Theacrine, 400mg of L-Theanine, and 400mg of Bacopa (your favorite ingredient which is only at 300 in your formula), and our product costs $29.99 and will soon be slashed to even less. I do like the addition of Kanna though by the way, alongside the Noopept (although that is a low dose of Noopept too imo). Not a bad formula, although underdosed, and coming from someone who's trying to shred my formula who is repping something that is dosed worse and sells it for $44.99 is a bit baffling. If you didn't make that formula or you don't endorse it, then my apologies, but if you did make it/endorse it, then you're way out of line trying to critique my formula which frankly is far superior to yours.
 
muscleupcrohn

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It's fine that you're skeptical, however, the only reason I'm on here is because I saw a thread pop up on Google with our product name, I clicked it, and mad_canada said some things that irked me enough to get on here and defend myself, and he convinced me to send him a free product.

Hopefully this clears things up:

1) I'm not advertising a thing, I came on here to clarify what I felt was a blatant misjudgment, and ended up giving away a free product for him to decide for himself. He's not bound by anything whatsoever to review it on here, and if he decides not to then that's completely his call. You can't even review a product on our site without a verified purchase, and even if he decided he did like it after trying it and wanted to push it on this forum (or if I did), you definitely can't shill products on boards like this as an affiliate without paying sponsor fees. If I was trying to drop a sponsor ad on here, I'd pay for it. I'm a prominent member and vetted on many other boards just like this. Keep in mind, I didn't ask for this thread to be made, I simply came on here to clarify a couple things that I felt were unfair to say without giving it a chance, or understanding that a product with the compounds he mentioned are not legal to sell as dietary supplements. If you happened to make and sell a (insert any product here) and you Googled it and saw someone speaking unfavorably about it without having used it, I'm sure you would be compelled to create an account to clarify what you felt was a baseless claim.

2) I didn't ask to compare it to Modafinil either, he said he uses Modafinil, so I touched on how it compares to Modafinil in my opinion, especially seeing as I have over 6 years of experience with it. However, like he mentioned, Modafinil is commonly used for focus and productivity (despite it being a wakefulness agent it has gained notoriety in the Nootropic world). And at the end of the day, the product isn't just supposed to be a "Nootropic" or else there wouldn't be exotic stims in there at all.

3) You are trying to calculate a Bacopa dosage based on numbers you can't determine. With all due respect, there are several components in this formula you couldn't possibly guess what the exact dosage is (e.g. 2-aminoisoheptane, Eria Jarensis Extract, Higenamine) and you are trying to assert you know for a fact there is less than a sufficient dosage of Bacopa in there with no possible way of determining that. There is well over 300mg in this formula. 400+ actually. How you are arriving at 125mg per day is beyond me. Regardless, we will open up the formula on the next batch and then you can rip me apart then if you want to. Or just get a free sample when they go up on the website and then rip me apart after you try it.

4) Yes that caffeine outline is correct you asked about from that article, and yes that is my article.

5) Yes I believe it is fair to compare to Amazon Nootropics, because frankly, those are the ones who run the industry we are in. The products are sawdust, but their marketing is on point, and those are the brands we compete against. If I could throw Fluorinated Modafinil, Noopept, Phenylpiracetam etc. into a dietary supplement and legally sell it, I would, however, as mentioned we cannot, so we are in the same battlefield as these Amazon brands and the Optiminds and Alpha Brains of the world. Fortunately, our formula completely smokes them (as I mentioned as well). Just need to nail the marketing. Again, this isn't an ad, you guys are inviting me to come on here to defend the product, so I am. None of you need to buy it or should feel inclined to buy it, this is simply me trying to clarify misunderstandings that just so happen to be on the second page of Google searches when you look up my product. There is the GMP Certified + FDA compliant side of the Nootropic industry, and then there is the other side that you would find in the sponsor sections on the likes of hardcore bodybuilding forums (the more exciting and more effective one in almost all cases, but cannot be classified as a dietary supplement). We are on the G rated side, as dealing with offshore merchants, horrible credit card processors that charge 30%+ per transaction and shut down bi-weekly once you start moving volume, among the myriad of other backend issues is not something we are willing to risk, or deal with. Fortunately, I know how to make something very effective even while maintaining compliance. If you want to compare a product on Amazon to research chems, analogues, or derivatives of Rx drugs, that's fine, although I don't think it should be done as they are in two different dimensions in regards to compliance and formulation options. For what it's worth, and what I'm trying to drive home, is I do think I have created something that is formidable in effectiveness to the edgy and non-compliant formulas sold by individuals who have significantly more freedom with what they use, but when compared to something else G rated (the industry we are actually in and compete directly with), we will blow anything you can find out of the water, and at a better price point.

Edit: 6) I just realized you're a Performax sales rep. Your Nootropic formula has 50mg of Theacrine and 100mg of L-Theanine and you're trying to give me a hard time over my formula... Come on man. Our non-stim formula has 200mg of Theacrine, 400mg of L-Theanine, and 400mg of Bacopa (your favorite ingredient which is only at 300 in your formula), and our product costs $29.99 and will soon be slashed to even less. I do like the addition of Kanna though by the way, alongside the Noopept (although that is a low dose of Noopept too imo). Not a bad formula, although underdosed, and coming from someone who's trying to shred my formula who is repping something that is dosed worse and sells it for $44.99 is a bit baffling. If you didn't make that formula or you don't endorse it, then my apologies, but if you did make it/endorse it, then you're way out of line trying to critique my formula which frankly is far superior to yours.
You’re wrong on so many levels my friend. Given the nature of how ingredients must be listed in proprietary blends, that is in descending order of dose, and bacopa being listed after dicaffeine malate in the blend, there has to be less bacopa than dicaffeine malate. Given that you explicitly stated that 6 caps contains 125mg of dicaffeine malate, bacopa HAS TO BE dosed at no more than 125mg. Unless your label is not compliant...

As for Theacrine, it’s goal is to potentiate the caffeine, and the goal of theanine is to calm/smooth the caffeine. So they’re ancillary ingredients, and the synergy between them has been demonstrated at a range of doses. Unlike bacopa, which has a well established minimum dose and has effects and a MoA that are more of a stand-alone than intended to potentiate other ingredients.

I’d also say that NootropiMax is much better than your product.

Of course, if you’re claiming to have 400+mg bacopa listed AFTER 125mg dicaffeine malate, then your label is entirely non-compliant, and buying a non-compliant prop-blend is asinine.

Edit: Also, you’re always talking about your 6 cap dose. That means you only have 15 servings per bottle. $30 for $15 servings is $2/serving. Even if NootropiMax is $45 for 30 servings, that’s only $1.50/serving.
 
muscleupcrohn

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FDA:

Dietary Supplement Labeling Guide: Chapter IV. Nutrition Labeling

How must I list proprietary blends?
You must identify proprietary blends by use of the term "Proprietary Blend" or an appropriately descriptive term or fanciful name. On the same line, you must list the total weight of all "other dietary ingredients" contained in the blend. Indented underneath the name of the blend, you must list the "other dietary ingredients" in the blend, either in a column or linear fashion, in descending order of predominance by weight. These ingredients should be followed by a symbol referring to the footnote "Daily Value Not Established." Dietary ingredients having RDIs or DRVs must be listed separately and the individual weights declared.

21 CFR 101.36(b)(2) and (c)
Given each serving you have had 1665mg, and each capsules has 30mg caffeine anhydrous and 20.83mg dicaffeine malate per capsule (which means 3 capsules has 90mg and 62.5mg dicaffeine malate). According to FDA regulations, that means every ingredient coming after dicaffeine malate must have no higher (equal or less than) of s dose than it, which means that bacopa, coming below it, cannot contain more than 62.5mg per 3 capsules (1 serving).
https://www.fda.gov/food/guidanceregulation/guidancedocumentsregulatoryinformation/dietarysupplements/ucm070597.htm

It also means that, and this is a “best case scenario” you don’t have more than 189mg per serving of actual Alpha-GPC (50% means only half of each mg is actually Alpha-GPC). Also note that this scenario maximizes the Alpha-GPC content, but means that there’s literally 0mg if everything after/below dicaffeine malate, and all the ingredients above the GPC are dosed the same (not higher) as it, which would mean that the NALT is also severely underdosed.

(1665-90-62.5)/4, which is assuming 0mg of all ingredients below dicaffeine malate and equal amounts of the four ingredients above caffeine anhydrous, which would maximize the Alpha-GPC content. That gives you 378.125mg of 50% Alpha-GPC, which yields 189.06mg Alpha-GPC per 3 capsule serving, but that dose would only be possible assuming 0mg bacopa and everything below it, and also 378.125mg of every ingredient above Alpha-GPC, which would make some of them, like NALT, underdosed as well.

Basic math clears up a lot of your proprietary blend, assuming compliant labeling.
 

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I'm just a regular guy know one asked me to post anything on here I'm only taking 3 a day

I'm just a 53-year old guy that was stuck
Not accomplishing much after I started taking this my garage is clean.. my yard work is done ..my truck that's been sitting in the driveway is back on the road

I'm a janitor at an elementary school and my principal has even said I'm doing a good job

I just do light exercising and try to eat right I'm not hardcore

I never even heard of modafinil till this topic

This is the first nootropics I've taken I did not even know what a nootropic was until last week

Now after doing a little research I think this is good value

I remember in 2009 when AX had Slim Extreme they spiked it and this form caught it. This form is great for info
proline analog (Phenyl-pyrrolidinyltoluene) aka 2-Diphenylmethylpyrrolidine


I actually wish they didn't catch it I love that stuff
 

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If you're comparing it to other nootropics on Amazon, you're comparing it to junk. 95% + of the nootropics on Amazon are underdosed garbage. Compare it to some actual good nootropic formulas.

As for "synergy," the burden of proof is on the person making the claims. We know that there's synergy between things like caffeine and theanine, as studies have shown it, but too many people don't know what synergy actually is. It's more likely that if the bacopa is underdosed, the product may still "work" and have benefits besides, or independent of, the underdosed bacopa; without a proposed MoA/etc, it doesn't make sense to say that other ingredients are potentiating or synergistic with the bacopa; that would mean one of them makes the bacopa work better.

I want to know the approximate caffeine content. Is it equivalent to one cup of coffee per serving? Two? Three? Without knowing that, it seems beyond irresponsible to use or recommend it.
Send Mad Canada a free bottle you sound like a hater
 
muscleupcrohn

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Send Mad Canada a free bottle you sound like a hater
I’m taking issue with some bad math and silly claims about the product. It may well be a decent product, there’s just some things that don’t add up.
 
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I’m taking issue with some bad math and silly claims about the product. It may well be a decent product, there’s just some things that don’t add up.
So that is a no?
LOL kidding.

Either way, I guess this discussion ends without people seeing eye to eye, but I'll he logging gorilla mind starting tomorrow, and I would be a fool to not be open to other logging opportunities, but companies that have limited stock or existing history and reviews don't usually do logging opportunities.
 

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FDA:

Dietary Supplement Labeling Guide: Chapter IV. Nutrition Labeling


Given each serving you have had 1665mg, and each capsules has 30mg caffeine anhydrous and 20.83mg dicaffeine malate per capsule (which means 3 capsules has 90mg and 62.5mg dicaffeine malate). According to FDA regulations, that means every ingredient coming after dicaffeine malate must have no higher (equal or less than) of s dose than it, which means that bacopa, coming below it, cannot contain more than 62.5mg per 3 capsules (1 serving).

It also means that, and this is a “best case scenario” you don’t have more than 189mg per serving of actual Alpha-GPC (50% means only half of each mg is actually Alpha-GPC). Also note that this scenario maximizes the Alpha-GPC content, but means that there’s literally 0mg if everything after/below dicaffeine malate, and all the ingredients above the GPC are dosed the same (not higher) as it, which would mean that the NALT is also severely underdosed.

(1665-90-62.5)/4, which is assuming 0mg of all ingredients below dicaffeine malate and equal amounts of the four ingredients above caffeine anhydrous, which would maximize the Alpha-GPC content. That gives you 378.125mg of 50% Alpha-GPC, which yields 189.06mg Alpha-GPC per 3 capsule serving, but that dose would only be possible assuming 0mg bacopa and everything below it, and also 378.125mg of every ingredient above Alpha-GPC, which would make some of them, like NALT, underdosed as well.

Basic math clears up a lot of your proprietary blend, assuming compliant labeling.
The effort you're going through to sh*t on my product is unreal lol

1) Please do not lecture me about FDA compliance when you're selling a dietary supplement with Noopept in it. That part of your argument is already out the window.

2) Listing ingredients in descending order is correct, and that is where this confusion is coming from. Our original formula had a fat dose of straight anhydrous in it, it was only in a reformulation that I split it into Anhydrous and Dicaffeine Malate. Evidently our label designer just placed it right under the anhydrous, when Bacopa should have been bumped up a couple spots after the split. I'll get that rectified on the site right now actually.

3) Our product has 600mg of Alpha-GPC per full serving. There is literally nothing in this formula that is underdosed, and the fact that you keep trying to poke holes in it with your $45 300mg Bacopa fueled mediocre product is insane.

4) If you'd say your Noot is better than mine, you have no idea what you're talking about. Even using half of a full dose of our product ($1 per serving at the current price, and we've had several sales where it was as low as $0.66 per serving, and we will be slashing pricing even more soon to get more people to try it), still has over double many of your ingredients (the ones that matter anyways), not to mention everything else in it that make these two products not even comparable. Even when we had Noopept in it we had more than you. Unfortunately we had no choice but to take it out.
I do like Kanna though like I said.

- We have several other potent exotic stimulants that are far better than caffeine that you have none of (and we have enough Caffeine in the product anyways coupled with those other stims if you really wanted to go tit for tat on Caffeine for some reason)
- We have 4x your dose of L-Theanine to complement our Caffeine
- Your 50mg of Theacrine in your formula does next to nothing, our stim-free version of the product has 4x that dosage
- We have 100mg more Bacopa than you
- We have 600mg of the best choline source you can use (Alpha GPC) and you have the bare minimum of an inferior choline source (250mg CDP Choline). You can argue which is a better Choline source, but at the end of the day ours is maxed, yours is bare minimum.
- I haven't even mentioned the other ingredients because there is nothing left in your formula to even bother comparing to
 
muscleupcrohn

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So that is a no?
LOL kidding.

Either way, I guess this discussion ends without people seeing eye to eye, but I'll he logging gorilla mind starting tomorrow, and I would be a fool to not be open to other logging opportunities, but companies that have limited stock or existing history and reviews don't usually do logging opportunities.
It’s not “not seeing eye to eye,” it’s his claims are mathematically impossible given FDA labeling guidelines and the doses of caffeine he explicitly stated. Each 3 capsule serving cannot possibly have more than 62.5mg bacopa if his label is compliant. It’s simple math. That means 6 caps (max dose) can’t be more than 125mg bacopa. So if it has 400+mg, his label is not compliant as the ingredients in the proprietary blend are not listed in descending order of weight.
 
muscleupcrohn

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The effort you're going through to sh*t on my product is unreal lol

1) Please do not lecture me about FDA compliance when you're selling a dietary supplement with Noopept in it. That part of your argument is already out the window.

2) Listing ingredients in descending order is correct, and that is where this confusion is coming from. Our original formula had a fat dose of straight anhydrous in it, it was only in a reformulation that I split it into Anhydrous and Dicaffeine Malate. Evidently our label designer just placed it right under the anhydrous, when Bacopa should have been bumped up a couple spots after the split. I'll get that rectified on the site right now actually.

3) Our product has 600mg of Alpha-GPC per full serving. There is literally nothing in this formula that is underdosed, and the fact that you keep trying to poke holes in it with your $45 300mg Bacopa fueled mediocre product is insane.

4) If you'd say your Noot is better than mine, you have no idea what you're talking about. Even using half of a full dose of our product ($1 per serving at the current price, and we've had several sales where it was as low as $0.66 per serving, and we will be slashing pricing even more soon to get more people to try it), still has over double many of your ingredients (the ones that matter anyways), not to mention everything else in it that make these two products not even comparable. Even when we had Noopept in it we had more than you. Unfortunately we had no choice but to take it out.
I do like Kanna though like I said.

- We have several other potent exotic stimulants that are far better than caffeine that you have none of (and we have enough Caffeine in the product anyways coupled with those other stims if you really wanted to go tit for tat on Caffeine for some reason)
- We have 4x your dose of L-Theanine to complement our Caffeine
- Your 50mg of Theacrine in your formula does next to nothing, our stim-free version of the product has 4x that dosage
- We have 100mg more Bacopa than you
- We have 600mg of the best choline source you can use (Alpha GPC) and you have the bare minimum of an inferior choline source (250mg CDP Choline). You can argue which is a better Choline source, but at the end of the day ours is maxed, yours is bare minimum.
- I haven't even mentioned the other ingredients because there is nothing left in your formula to even bother comparing to
If the confusion is just due to the error in splitting the caffeine, then that changes a lot of my statements. The formula may be a lot better than it would have been based on the label I saw. I’ll withhold comments until then. I still stand by NootropiMax, but your formula may also be very good if the caffeine thing is just out of order.


600mg of 50% Alpha-GPC is 300mg, which is pretty much the minimum dose of Alpha-GPC. Solid, but also a “minimum” dose. You are talking 600mg of 50%, right? I also argue that with the addition of huperzine-A, the two together are more than sufficient.

You’re also comparing two different products of yours to one of mine. When you talk about your high dose of Theacrine, it’s in your caffeine free version, but when you talk about your exotic stims, that’s the caffeine containing formula. You have to compare only one.

No hard feelings though; this seems like it was all based on a misunderstanding, and I unintentionally helped you find a labeling mistake.
 
mad_canada

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n phenethyl dimethylamine.

Reading on this, very interesting to see how it compares to PEA.
 

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If the confusion is just due to the error in splitting the caffeine, then that changes a lot of my statements. The formula may be a lot better than it would have been based on the label I saw. I’ll withhold comments until then. I still stand by NootropiMax, but your formula may also be very good if the caffeine thing is just out of order.


600mg of 50% Alpha-GPC is 300mg, which is pretty much the minimum dose of Alpha-GPC. Solid, but also a “minimum” dose. You are talking 600mg of 50%, right?

You’re also comparing two different products of yours to one of mine. When you talk about your high dose of Theacrine, it’s in your caffeine free version, but when you talk about your exotic stims, that’s the caffeine containing formula. You have to compare only one.

No hard feelings though; this seems like it was all based on a misunderstanding, and I unintentionally helped you find a labeling mistake. :)
The standard in the industry is to use 50% Alpha GPC in almost all cases due to how it sucks in moisture and clumps. It is near impossible to even combine 50% with most of these ingredients if you are using an effective dosage because it creates a viscous gooey texture that doesn't cap well, and we've backed up entire manufacturing lines just to run our product in caps at the dosages I required. We've been refused to run our product a couple times now because it takes so long and it backs up their entire facility.

Nobody is selling turnkey formula products with 600mg of 100% Alpha GPC, just like when you use 300 mg of Bacognize® in your product nobody is going to take a dump on you for it being standardized to 45% Bacosides when the effective dosage is 300mg daily at 55% of the extract, by weight, because the standard in our industry has been established as what Bacognize is doing and hitting that 300mg threshold.

And ya well we have a stim formula and a non-stim one. Even if I threw a fat dose of Theacrine into our stim formula it would be pissing in the wind with everything else we have in there you wouldn't even notice it, and all the Noots in the stim product are in the non-stim product one anyways, plus some (big dose of PEA + Hordenine).

And ya, no hard feelings. Thanks for not just reporting me to a mod or something off the bat and actually engaging me in an intelligent debate.
 
muscleupcrohn

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The standard in the industry is to use 50% Alpha GPC in almost all cases due to how it sucks in moisture and clumps. It is near impossible to even combine 50% with most of these ingredients if you are using an effective dosage because it creates a viscous gooey texture that doesn't cap well, and we've backed up entire manufacturing lines just to run our product in caps at the dosages I required. We've been refused to run our product a couple times now because it takes so long and it backs up their entire facility.

Nobody is selling turnkey formula products with 600mg of 100% Alpha GPC, just like when you use 300 mg of Bacognize in your product nobody is going to take a dump on you for it being standardized to 45% Bacosides when the effective dosage is 300mg daily at 55% of the extract, by weight, because the standard in our industry has been established as what Bacognize is doing and hitting that 300mg threshold.

And ya well we have a stim formula and a non-stim one. Even if I threw a fat dose of Theacrine into our stim formula it would be pissing in the wind with everything else we have in there you wouldn't even notice it.

And ya, no hard feelings. Thanks for not just reporting me to a mod or something off the bat and actually engaging me in an intelligent debate.
There are actually studies showing benefits with 300mg/day Bacognize. ;)

My point regarding Alpha-GPC is that your 600mg of 50% is equivalent to a 300mg dose in studies, as they base their dose on absolute yield, not the 50%. Either way, it’s a solid dose, but not close to the “max” dose.
 
JAS51

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MPMD can you post the ingredient profile to you product or products?
 

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There are actually studies showing benefits with 300mg/day Bacognize. ;)

My point regarding Alpha-GPC is that your 600mg of 50% is equivalent to a 300mg dose in studies, as they base their dose on absolute yield, not the 50%. Either way, it’s a solid dose, but not close to the “max” dose.
I feel like I explained the Alpha-GPC portion sufficiently. I never said there aren't studies showing that, there are also studies showing the other ingredients in your product work a negligible amount at the dosages you included and work much better (optimally actually) at the dosages that I have used. But I'm not going to debate it further, I feel I have defended the product more than enough.

For what it's worth, from what I've seen in the non-grey area Noot industry (I'll just throw yours in there too because Noopept probably won't be targeted anytime soon), your formula is better than all of the main players and you can actually justify selling it for what you are when you see what some of these mainstream companies are doing. Many of these other companies are straight up robbing people with good marketing.
 
mad_canada

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Pea doesn't impress me
It's got a super short half life.
 

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MPMD can you post the ingredient profile to you product or products?
I'll open up the label on the next batch and post it on our site, I'm not going to post it for the first time on a forum I'm some unknown random 8 post nobody on.

If you skim the thread you can pretty much piece together most of it though tbh, I disclosed much more than I wanted to, but when I'm called out I tend to do things I wouldn't normally do (like send a guy I exchanged one message with a full bottle for free and ate the shipping fee too).
 

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Pea doesn't impress me
It's got a super short half life.
Hence why there is a fat dose of Hordenine in it too.

Go look up what Hordenine does for PEA and then let me know if you think it's useless.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I feel like I explained the Alpha-GPC portion sufficiently. I never said there aren't studies showing that, there are also studies showing the other ingredients in your product work a negligible amount at the dosages you included and work much better (optimally actually) at the dosages that I have used. But I'm not going to debate it further, I feel I have defended the product more than enough.

For what it's worth, from what I've seen in the non-grey area Noot industry (I'll just throw yours in there too because Noopept probably won't be targeted anytime soon), your formula is better than all of the main players and you can actually justify selling it for what you are when you see what some of these mainstream companies are doing. Many of these other companies are straight up robbing people with good marketing.
You explained it fine, and 300mg A-GPC (600mg of 50%) is 100% an effective dose, but it is in no way the MAX dose of Alpha-GPC. That would be at least 600mg yield, or 1200mg of 50%. This is a fact.

As for what ingredients in my product work negligibly, I’ll break it down.

Bacopa: 300mg Bacognize (studies confirm this exact dose)
CDP-Choline: 250mg (effective dose; see below)
Huperzine-A: 100mcg (effective if not optimal dose, but more than enough paired with CDP; both work to increase AChE, max dosing both is overkill, as both are effective alone anyway)
Noopept: 20mg (limited human research; this is the studied dose, albeit the study was not in healthy subjects)
Caffeine(s): Dosed fine
Theanine: 100mg (perhaps sub-optimal, but the purpose of the theanine is just to calm the caffeine, and we achieve that more than well enough between the theanine, bacopa (which can also reduce anxiety), and the kanna; more theanine in the formula made the effect too little-energizing/stimulating). It’s plenty balanced as is
Theacrine: 50mg (perhaps suboptimal alone, but again, it’s a boost to the caffeine, not a stand-alone, and research suggests that coingestion with caffeine enhances the effects of Theacrine; we’re boosting the caffeine, not relying on the Theacrine)
Sceletium: 25mg (the studied dose)

We do have a version for other markets that replaces the Noopept with longan and the huperzine with sage (which I actually love; sage has a ton of studies showing acute benefits in healthy subjects).
 
mad_canada

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You explained it fine, and 300mg A-GPC (600mg of 50%) is 100% an effective dose, but it is in no way the MAX dose of Alpha-GPC. That would be at least 600mg yield, or 1200mg of 50%. This is a fact.

As for what ingredients in my product work negligibly, I’ll break it down.

Bacopa: 300mg Bacognize (studies confirm this exact dose)
CDP-Choline: 250mg (effective dose; se below)
Huperzine-A: 100mcg (effective if not optimal dose, but more than enough paired with CDP; both work to increase AChE, max dosing both is overkill, as both are effective alone anyway)
Noopept: 20mg (limited human research; this is the studied dose, albeit the study was not in healthy subjects)
Caffeine(s): Dosed fine
Theanine: 100mg (perhaps sub-optimal, but the purpose of the theanine is just to calm the caffeine, and we achieve that more than well enough between the theanine, bacopa (which can also reduce anxiety), and the kanna; more theanine in the formula made the effect too little-energizing/stimulating). It’s plenty balanced as is
Theacrine: 50mg (perhaps suboptimal alone, but again, it’s a boost to the caffeine, not a stand-alone, and research suggests that coingestion with caffeine enhances the effects of Theacrine; we’re boosting the caffeine, not relying on the Theacrine)
Sceletium: 25mg (the studied dose)

We do have a version for other markets that replaces the Noopept with longan and the huperzine with sage (which I actually love; sage has a ton of studies showing acute benefits in healthy subjects).
I was under the impression the theanine:caffeine ratio was 2:1 in most cases, correct?
 
muscleupcrohn

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I was under the impression the theanine:caffeine ratio was 2:1 in most cases, correct?
“Most.” It’s personal preference really, with some people preferring 1:2, 1:1, etc. It really depends on the individual, application/intended effect, and doses. And also other ingredients. A huge dose of theanine with bacopa and kanna would likely result in too much of a calm and relaxed feeling, which could take away from the intended Kent’s energy.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I also forgot to mention the l-ornithine HCL, dosed at 250mg, which is the exact dose found to potentiate the duration of caffeine’s effects. It’s not so much trying to get the benefits of ornithine supplementation as it is using ornithine to maximize caffeine’s effects, and we used the studied dose.

So we have caffeine, in two forms, which is potentiated and synergistic with (actual synergy) theanine, ornithine, and Theacrine. The caffeine is the main player in the energy blend; the other ingredients maximize the benefits of caffeine (energy and focus) while minimizing the negatives (balancing it and extending the duration of its effects), as supported by studies.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I am interested in seeing the label either in the correct order or fully disclosed. Without either of those, it’s a huge crapshoot trying to figure out the doses.

Also, when you claim 600mg 50% GPC and 400mg bacopa, that has to be per 6 caps, right? If it’s per 3, then those three plus your caffeine(s) leaves almost no room for all the other ingredients?
 
muscleupcrohn

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Also, you claim to have 600mg of Alpha GPC per full serving and 400mg theanine (4x 100mg), but list theanine above Alpha-GPC; if you have 600mg of Alpha-GPC, shouldn't it be above/before theanine in the blend? I'm very confused about the order of the ingredients; is that a mistake as well?
 

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Also, you claim to have 600mg of Alpha GPC per full serving and 400mg theanine (4x 100mg), but list theanine above Alpha-GPC; if you have 600mg of Alpha-GPC, shouldn't it be above/before theanine in the blend? I'm very confused about the order of the ingredients; is that a mistake as well?
Yes you are correct. The order of ingredients is off, will be rectified asap. Our label designer has a history of making incorrect changes sometimes for no reason (e.g. changing font styles or changing the order of ingredients) that we didn't even ask for that go overlooked. Will be hiring someone new to ensure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again. Sometimes we will get a typo fixed, and then we get the .AI file back and there is a typo added somewhere else that wasn't even there to begin with.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Yes you are correct. The order of ingredients is off, will be rectified asap. Our label designer has a history of making incorrect changes sometimes for no reason (e.g. changing font styles or changing the order of ingredients) that we didn't even ask for that go overlooked. Will be hiring someone new to ensure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again. Sometimes we will get a typo fixed, and then we get the .AI file back and there is a typo added somewhere else that wasn't even there to begin with.
Understood. I can only base my views on the information I'm given, so I'll withhold further comments until you let us know that the label is accurate. I do enjoy the conversation and anyone who enjoys and knows about nootropics, even if I'm critical at times.
 

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Yes you are correct. The order of ingredients is off, will be rectified asap. Our label designer has a history of making incorrect changes sometimes for no reason (e.g. changing font styles or changing the order of ingredients) that we didn't even ask for that go overlooked. Will be hiring someone new to ensure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again. Sometimes we will get a typo fixed, and then we get the .AI file back and there is a typo added somewhere else that wasn't even there to begin with.
Good lord, how is this person in business and why would you continue using them after you know they have a history of this. I'd be quadruple checking everything before releasing.
 

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Good lord, how is this person in business and why would you continue using them after you know they have a history of this. I'd be quadruple checking everything before releasing.
We do. It's very common for there to be a random typo here and there on labels. Even the big names have this issue (I've seen many Redcon 1 products with brutal typos). When you have looked over your label a million times, and implement a bunch of tiny little changes, sometimes it becomes easy to overlook little things. And honestly, when you send someone a typo to fix, would you really even consider that they would go create a typo or font change somewhere else on the label that was not even related to what you asked them to fix. E.G. you ask them to fix a font, and then they go into some obscure corner and change a different font that's not supposed to be changed. When you've seen your label a billion times, and you're paying someone to do a job, it doesn't really cross your mind that they are going to go screw something up that was already correct to begin with that had nothing to do with what you paid them to fix. As much as you think that quadruple checking would be good enough, it's near impossible to catch things in a situation like this when you have people doing this kind of stuff from foreign countries who don't speak English as their first language and accidentally screw something up that was correct to begin with. We stuck with them because their graphic design work is excellent. We will get it resolved and work with someone else. Not really a crucial error at the end of the day fortunately for us having a couple ingredients slightly out of order on a prop blend. Regardless, being fixed.
 

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