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    I'm with AE... I don't understand the connections you're making Flaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    God's holy spirit is a interesting thing. It confirms the things you believe so you have proof of god's existence. Those without faith would never experience it therefore could never believe. I've seen God's hand in my life countless times. ...
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.
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    So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    This is exactly true!

    A. He was crazy, and actually believed he was god even though he wasn't.

    B. He was a con man, and said he was god even though he knew he wasn't.

    C. He actually was who he said he was, God.
    Exactly

    and history shows us Jesus was NOT a lunatic- people wouldnt have followed Him so closely! Lunatics where not treated with respect in those days

    Also if He was a lair people would not have risked their lives in following Him


    That leaves me with one conclusion

    He is the Messiah
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

    I have this also

    I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

    and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


    I believe it to be God
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

    I have this also

    I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

    and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


    I believe it to be God


    as for AE14

    I love science- absolutley love it!

    But science cannot explain everything
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Look at what is in bold AG. The only person of power that could put Jesus to death was Pontius Pilot. All other groups did not have the power to do it. They pushed for it, but they themselves could not do it.

    Pontius Pilot, the only man of power to kill Jesus, washed his Ohands from that decision. Pilot gave Jesus up to the people, and the people chose between Jesus and Barabbas to be condemned and killed.

    So his trial and condemnation did come from the people.
    good point CM, and welcome back my friend! But let us look at it as a time frame. The Sadducees, who where then in control of the San hedrin at the time, were those I was referring to as rulers. They arrested Jesus at night in the garden. He stood in illegal trial all night. Was taken to herod that night, and was finally before Pilot early the next morning. The choice between Barrabas and Jesus took place early Friday morning. The only people who knew Jesus had been arrested were those who in fact arrested him. This would be like holding a state election and only telling 1/20th of electorate it was taking place. So IMHO the people only found out about this as he was condemned as he walked carrying the cross.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me
    Well, I'm a man of science at least, yes. (it was very gracious of you to add the intelligent part though, lol)

    I'm still not sure how to explain it conventionally, AE. Back then, it was not possible for me to be anything more than an agnostic before my revelation, and I would argue with everybody who believed (even my wife!) I would make fun of them, just like many atheists here do to believers, never acknowledging many of the historical aspects but quickly pointing out the unlikelihood of a Christian god. Why would such a great God waste his time on the petty affairs of mankind? That was my bottom line and my major hang-up with religion. The universe was just too big for such a personal relationship to exist between an almighty God and a little man on a small planet in a medium solar system in an average galaxy, etc, etc.. I thought sure, maybe there is a singular omnipotent creator, but certainly not one like any religion presented. I thought I could learn the mind of God through standardized, quantitized, analytical science. I was a thinking man, I didn't need "belief" to poison that! I viewed religion as a primitive form of science to explain natural phenomena in the absence of the necessary scientific understanding.

    So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post

    as for AE14

    I love science- absolutley love it!

    But science cannot explain everything
    so that means god I assume......

    Or is it something, like Dr. D said, that still needs to be searched?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.
    the first bolded section is what gives me trouble to be honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    so that means god I assume......

    Or is it something, like Dr. D said, that still needs to be searched?
    One thing science cannot explain is God yes, but there are other things sir!


    Take for instance the phenomena of science- there are MANY things science cannot explain- they have theorys of it of course- but no concrete evidence of how or why it works!


    Same thing with God- you cannot disprove Gods existence- nor can you prove it- but there is SO much that SUGGESTS He IS!
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    and if we could understand or explain God- He wouldnt be God
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    Same thing with God- you cannot disprove Gods existence- nor can you prove it- but there is SO much that SUGGESTS He IS!
    I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

    What is there that suggests a God exists?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

    What is there that suggests a God exists?
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    One thing science cannot explain is God yes, but there are other things sir!


    Take for instance the phenomena of science- there are MANY things science cannot explain- they have theorys of it of course- but no concrete evidence of how or why it works!


    Same thing with God- you cannot disprove Gods existence- nor can you prove it- but there is SO much that SUGGESTS He IS!
    I respect what you are saying, however since the argument for a good portiono f this thread has pertained to jesus as messiah, there is substantial proof why he couldnt be, as I have explained before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Again, just based on interpretation. Nowhere in that quote is there a reference to anything about a second coming. Also bear in mind this is NT text and not OT which is what we were refering to previously
    At Genesis 3:15 where God says "he will crush your head" this is in the time frame of the 2nd coming of christ when the devil will be destroyed. The final blow. That is my interpretation anyway.

    What would yours be?
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

    What is there that suggests a God exists?
    Does science support the existence of God?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    YOUR REP POINTS !!!! HOLY COW 50017 !!! lol I change my mind on everythn now hehee
    I know, right! He has like 200x more reps than the rest of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

    What is there that suggests a God exists?
    Creation- not evolution my friend choco! But creation itself- i will speak of my own experience here

    Every single snowflake that ever falls- is different none are alike

    If the earth where any closer or further from the sun life couldnt exist


    Look at the mountins the ocean things like that

    sure this can attempt to be explained by science- but even scientist are starting to point to the idea of a creative intellegence!

    Big bang theroy is actually a theory of a creative intellegence
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I respect what you are saying, however since the argument for a good portiono f this thread has pertained to jesus as messiah, there is substantial proof why he couldnt be, as I have explained before.
    But there is also evedence He could be too
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    Love the points being made here my brothers! I love the mutual respect even more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    Creation- not evolution my friend choco! But creation itself- i will speak of my own experience here

    Every single snowflake that ever falls- is different none are alike

    If the earth where any closer or further from the sun life couldnt exist


    Look at the mountins the ocean things like that

    sure this can attempt to be explained by science- but even scientist are starting to point to the idea of a creative intellegence!

    Big bang theroy is actually a theory of a creative intellegence
    I can't remember the exact quote from Einstein, but I will summarize the words he gave before his death...
    The more and more I delve into the universe and all things there in, the more I come to the realization that this could not have happened by chance, and the more and more I recognize the existence of some all knowing being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm with you on this for my own reasons. But I'm curious in yours...

    What is there that suggests a God exists?
    Great question CM. For me the question answers itself. ALL things denote there is a God. Everything I see in the heavens and the earth point to Him who created all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    At Genesis 3:15 where God says "he will crush your head" this is in the time frame of the 2nd coming of christ when the devil will be destroyed. The final blow. That is my interpretation anyway.

    What would yours be?
    To be honest, I would need to get a look at the total quote. I find it very difficult to automatically turn something into meaning it. I agree, our interpretations will certainly vary

    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    But there is also evedence He could be too
    However, according to the OT, the messiah would have to fufill all characteristics, not some. That is the issue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    I can't remember the exact quote from Einstein, but I will summarize the words he gave before his death...
    The more and more I delve into the universe and all things there in, the more I come to the realization that this could not have happened by chance, and the more and more I recognize the existence of some all knowing being.
    It's interesting you bring up Einstein because I was going to do the same with what happend to me today.

    So anyway, I happend to go get my mail today and a friend of mine shows up out of nowhere on his bike. He didn't exactly know where I lived but he drove around my complex and just happens to run into me. We start talking and he starts asking me how I'm doing. I'm telling him not so well, I'm going through some hard times right now. He proceeds to tell me all the right words that I need to hear. The very things I complained about to my wife he understood and comforted me in a time when I needed it most. He told me the devil wants to see you fail but showing that you will continue to serve God despite your trials proves him a liar. We can serve God despite trials. He told me as long as your doing the best you can, it doesn't matter how little it looks to other people. It was just what I needed to hear at just the right time. I felt like God sent a angel to comfort me. Coincidence?? Impossible, things like this have happend to me too many times.

    Going back to Einstein he said, "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous"
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    To be honest, I would need to get a look at the total quote. I find it very difficult to automatically turn something into meaning it. I agree, our interpretations will certainly vary

    However, according to the OT, the messiah would have to fufill all characteristics, not some. That is the issue
    Christ did fulfill them- all look up the messianic prophecy
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    if you actually read the actual Mayan prophesy it states that the human race will undego evolution, and life AS WE KNOW IT will end, not that the world is destroyed
    Evolution...ET involvement perhaps?
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    "LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

    "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "So you believe in God?"

    "Absolutely."

    "Is God good?"

    "Sure! God's good."

    "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

    "Yes."

    " Are you good or evil?"

    "The Bible says I'm evil."

    The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"

    "Yes sir, I would."

    "So you're good...!"

    "I wouldn't say that."

    "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.]

    "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

    [No answer]

    The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, son."

    "Is God good?"

    "Er... Yes."

    "Is Satan good?"

    "No."

    "Where does Satan come from?"

    The student falters. "From... God..."

    "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

    "Yes."

    "Who created evil?

    [No answer]

    "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All those terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

    The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

    "Who created them? "

    [No answer]

    The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

    [No answer]

    The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

    "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

    [No answer]

    "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.

    "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

    [No answer]

    "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

    The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

    The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Him? "

    "No, sir. I've never seen Him."

    "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

    "No, sir. I have not."

    "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

    [No answer]

    "Answer me, please."

    "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

    "You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

    "No, sir."

    "Yet you still believe in him?"

    "...yes..."

    "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

    [The student doesn't answer]

    "Sit down, please."

    The Christian sits...Defeated(?).

    Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

    The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

    The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you if that's okay. Is there such thing as heat?"

    "Yes," the professor replies, frowning. "There's heat."

    "Is there such a thing as cold?"

    "Yes, son, there's cold too."

    "No, sir, there isn't."

    The professor's grin freezes.

    The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.

    We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.

    We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.

    Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

    "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

    "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

    "Yes..."

    "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.

    If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

    Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

    "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

    The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

    "Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

    The class is all ears.

    "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

    "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains; "that for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.

    Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

    Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

    The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids you can buy, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

    "Of course there is, now look..."

    "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.

    "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

    The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

    The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?

    The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

    The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

    "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"

    "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

    "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

    "Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

    "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

    "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

    "I believe in what is - that's observable science!"

    "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. What you call "science" too is a premise which is flawed..."

    "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.

    The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "No sir, I mean-Your view of science is flawed. To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

    The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.

    Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life and that animals gave birth to children of other kinds!.

    Young man, the professor began tersely, I believe that science will eventually....

    "That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

    Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."

    There follows a long pause as the Professor stares the young Christian down without a word.

    "And sir!, the student went on. Don't You create failure?! I mean, you set a standard for passing this class, sir and those who don't meet it, fail! Isn't that right? So by setting a standard and utilizing your previously expressed philosophy--you create failure! Professor, I mean has anybody ever flunked this class"?

    "I may well be looking at such a someone right now", the Professor snarled!

    "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"

    No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.

    1 Peter 3:14

    But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear ; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post

    "Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"



    "That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

    Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."


    1 Peter 3:14

    But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear ; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    Amen, very nice illustration!

    The interesting thing about the theory of evolution is by definition, it's not even scientific. The belief of evolution can be compared to a religious belief. It sure is a matter of faith, no physical evidence yet so many have just accepted it as "science".

    "Science is simply a term man made when he discovered what GOD created"
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    I simply say bravo DD!!!! That was a perfect illustration of what I myself have tried so poorly to express... I think when not on my Droid I would like to post the history behind the word science itself.... fascinating reading!!!
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    Dunn, great story to open up a nice discussion. I laugh when someone says "I'm a man of Science," as if presenting Science as a bullet proof belief, founded on an immovable rock. Ha...

    Science is not complete. It is nowhere near complete. We do not understand everything about our universe. We don't understand spontanous generation from quantum fluctuations of the "Big Bang THEORY." Let's not forget the big bang is simply a theory. Even the big bang theory lies on 2 assumptions: that on large scales, the Universe is homogenous and isotropic. I won't get into detail because that's not the point here... The point is that something NEEDS to be true (something we can never prove), in order for the "Big Bang theory" to be plausible. Oh how much faith a man of Science rests on without even knowing it.

    Put your speakers up and check this out:

    A fellow member showed me this, Jasen.
    http://htwins.net/scale/

    Play with this a bit, it will give you an idea of how small we are. It hurts my heart sometimes to know how insignificant we are, and that with all our knowledge, it just looks impossible to understand everything that is happening from our small vantage point of Earth.

    We built ridiculous telescopes like the Hubble, send them into the far reaches of our solar system, just to take a snapshot of this:



    Maybe 0.00000001% of our Universe. And this is as far as we've gotten to even see with our own eyes. Some things seem impossible to see, for instance, one can never see the whole Universe, never. Our eyes just cannot grasp the entire detail into focus. It is too large. I think God is this large. We could be living on God but he is just too large to see.

    I believe we are still too early in the advancement of the human species to begin to accept what a "God" is, and where our Universe came from. The hearts and minds of men are still like babies in their evolution into intelligence. Make no mistake about it, if we don't kill ourselves, we will advance, and maybe, just maybe, we might come to understand our physical reality and at that moment, will God be revealed to us.
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    I would rep u david- but i cant well said brother!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    the first thirty seconds sums it up- God is TOO BIG to understand- but that does not mean one cannot experience Him!
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    Christ did fulfill them- all look up the messianic prophecy
    If you go back a few posts, I mention specifically the ones he doesnt fufill, which is why he was never recognized by the jews as a messiah
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    the first thirty seconds sums it up- God is TOO BIG to understand- but that does not mean one cannot experience Him!
    In essence then, if god is too big to understand, all of our discussion revolve (as we knew) around the argument of blind faith. I think for many that is something that is very hard to swallow (blind faith). I know for me it is as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Make no mistake about it, if we don't kill ourselves, we will advance, and maybe, just maybe, we might come to understand our physical reality and at that moment, will God be revealed to us.
    I think we are certaintly on the path of destruction. Have you ever thought about it like this? Many people say man is destroying the earth, which they are but have you ever thought that earth is actually fighting back? I firmly believe that we were ment to live here and no where else. Before we ruin the earth the earth itself would make sure we stop. Built in survival tactics. That's what I believe would happen if life went on without God's divine intervention.
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I think we are certaintly on the path of destruction. Have you ever thought about it like this? Many people say man is destroying the earth, which they are but have you ever thought that earth is actually fighting back? I firmly believe that we were ment to live here and no where else. Before we ruin the earth the earth itself would make sure we stop. Built in survival tactics. That's what I believe would happen if life went on without God's divine intervention.
    I agree Flaw. Very interesting concept. I do believe we are headed down the path of destruction. I believe we are destructive by nature...

    You know, there is a species of monkeys that get into territory warfare with other groups of monkeys of their own species. When one groups wins by killing all the males, they take all the females and bring them back to their territory. The females are then awarded as sex slaves to the monkey who killed the most males.

    We humans have no doubt practiced this throughout history. It seems the more intelligent a species becomes, the more destructive they become also. We are becoming more destructive! Where do you see God's divine intervention that is stopping us from our path to destruction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    ... Where do you see God's divine intervention that is stopping us from our path to destruction?
    The more I think about it and study society, the more it seems something powerful and benevolent must be at work in the sublime (Holy Spirit?), constantly intervening to avert cataclysmic destruction. We probably don't even know the half CM, because it never gets publicized! In fact, it really blows my mind that we've lasted this long with all the reckless things man does to the planet and to one another. I don't know if it's gonna be 2012 exactly, but it seems almost certain that it's just a matter of time. The hearts of men grow colder and colder, and greed flourishes as whole nation's economies are poised to pop. I'm not a doom and gloom kinda guy, but something has got to give man, or it's an inevitable result of this gross imbalance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    The more I think about it and study society, the more it seems something powerful and benevolent must be at work in the sublime (Holy Spirit?), constantly intervening to avert cataclysmic destruction. We probably don't even know the half CM, because it never gets publicized! In fact, it really blows my mind that we've lasted this long with all the reckless things man does to the planet and to one another. I don't know if it's gonna be 2012 exactly, but it seems almost certain that it's just a matter of time. The hearts of men grow colder and colder, and greed flourishes as whole nation's economies are poised to pop. I'm not a doom and gloom kinda guy, but something has got to give man, or it's an inevitable result of this gross imbalance.
    Agree with the both of you, and CM I don't believe its God's job to save us from ourselves.... where would the justice be in that. Just like we ourselves let our own children, and in my case my seven children with number eight on the way, just suffer from the reckless decisions they some times make...
    Regardless though... we humans are destroying our own humanity one bit at a time... and believe me when I tell you... war is an ugly thing. For me, actually being hunted by the enemy is a feeling I never want to feel again, nor is it one I wish upon anyone... perhaps that is how the believers felt under the reign of Nero????
  

  
 

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