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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    If a war is necessary, then why would you have any particular bias against it?
    Well war was necessary to stop Hitler so I don't have a bias against it between human affairs. War may be necessary at times between humans.

    But war being "necessary" between Gods affairs.... not a God I want to follow. Equivalent to me of the wolf dressed in the sheep's clothing like you said.

    The bible God comes off as a loving God, but what did he instruct the Israelites to do the Ameleks and all other nations once reaching the promised land? Kill every man, woman, babe, suckling, child, cattle, donkey, animal and utterly destroy them and show no mercy and make no covenants with them. So, Saul sets off to do this.

    On his way Saul meets the Canaanites and he doesn't kill them (he was supposed to rid all nations of the promised land). And when Saul reaches the Ameleks, he spares their king Agog, and brings back the cattle and animals to feed his people.

    Was God pleased about Sauls mercy to the Canaanites, Ameleks, and generosity to his people? No. He didn't get the blood shed he asked for. So God says to Saul, you have rejected me so I have rejected you.

    Are you kidding me? Heres the kicker:

    Samuel must make up for Sauls acts and he has to do this by hacking king Agog into pieces in front of the Lord. Disgusting.

    One of many cases of how "just" the Bible God really is.

    D... I believe you are following the wolf.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    War, disaster, whatever.. is not necessarily "bad" or "good". The results are what define it.
    Just because the results of going to war against Hitler were good (free the world), it does not mean that "going to war" in itself and shedding blood all of the sudden was ALSO a good thing.

    I state it was a BAD thing... for a GOOD result.

    You state it was a GOOD thing... because of GOOD results.

    I think my ideology has more ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    If a thief on the street cuts you with a knife and you die, that's "bad". If a doctor cuts you with a knife to help cure some illness, that's "good". Things should be defined based on the fruit they bear.
    Good example to prove your point. But it doesn't work with my WWII example where regardless of the outcome, it was still a bad thing we did. Kill, destroy, bomb, shed blood.... Never a good thing... but sometimes necessary within the human world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Well war was necessary to stop Hitler so I don't have a bias against it between human affairs. War may be necessary at times between humans.

    But war being "necessary" between Gods affairs.... not a God I want to follow. Equivalent to me of the wolf dressed in the sheep's clothing like you said.

    The bible God comes off as a loving God, but what did he instruct the Israelites to do the Ameleks and all other nations once reaching the promised land? Kill every man, woman, babe, suckling, child, cattle, donkey, animal and utterly destroy them and show no mercy and make no covenants with them. So, Saul sets off to do this.

    On his way Saul meets the Canaanites and he doesn't kill them (he was supposed to rid all nations of the promised land). And when Saul reaches the Ameleks, he spares their king Agog, and brings back the cattle and animals to feed his people.

    Was God pleased about Sauls mercy to the Canaanites, Ameleks, and generosity to his people? No. He didn't get the blood shed he asked for. So God says to Saul, you have rejected me so I have rejected you.

    Are you kidding me? Heres the kicker:

    Samuel must make up for Sauls acts and he has to do this by hacking king Agog into pieces in front of the Lord. Disgusting.

    One of many cases of how "just" the Bible God really is.

    D... I believe you are following the wolf. ...
    Yes, it would seem that God is quite hostile, when you see it from that angle. But your perspective is what determines your view. When you go to the pool and look at the 15ft diving board, it doesn't look that high from the ground. But when you climb up and look down, for some reason it looks much higher from the end of the board!

    Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions. It's like your mom telling you not to go in the street to get your ball. You do it anyway because it seems like a good idea to you, then your mom gets pissed and puts you on restriction for not listening to her instructions, lol. She knows best, though you do not understand her logic. God has a much greater perspective on things as a heavenly parent, so even if we don't understand or agree with His protocols, how foolish and futile is it to think our logic is better? He designed the whole system, we did not. That's why God attributed Saul's disobedience to the sin of Divination/witchcraft, because he must have been listening to some other spirit to pull such a bone head move. Any boss will fire you for that kind of insubordination, not just God.

    You have already made some big assumptions. Who's to say those tribes were even human? All those Canaanite derived tribes were the unsanctioned, genetically modified Nephilim hybrids (GMO) that were contaminating the human genome. They Bible talks about wheat and tares. They look like us, but they are not worthy of your sympathy, because they weren't even real humans according to the Bible. That's why God was so seemingly ruthless in His mandates to eradicate their DNA. That's why the world was flooded, and that's why Joshua was given a similar task as Saul, to clear the land of all the -ite tribes.

    Do you feel sorry for the cancer that the doctor cuts out of you? It's alive, it's part of you, so don't you feel bad to remove it? Doesn't it have an equal right to life too? You can feel that way if you like, but if you don't destroy the contamination in your life, it will eventually destroy yours. Have you ever considered it that way? Necessary evil. Actions are defined by their results and to a lesser extent by their motives. If the results and motives are bad, then the war itself is bad.

    I highly recommend this book if you want to understand the alternate perspective I'm talking about. This author has a web site and tons of very interesting u-tube videos also. If she is correct, it changes everything. Read this book and it'll sharpen your understanding of the Bible by leaps and bounds...

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Eden-Knowledge-Good-Evil-666/dp/1598862537/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid =1213839259&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Eden: The Knowledge of Good and Evil 666 (9781598862539): Joye Jeffries Pugh: Books[/ame]
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions.
    I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

    This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    It's like your mom telling you not to go in the street to get your ball...Any boss will fire you for that kind of insubordination, not just God.
    My mom would never tell me to hack someone into pieces in front of her...

    And although my boss MAY fire me for not following his order to kill someone... in our society, we award whistle blowers, and I would win against my boss any day for not following a command that violates human freedom. Just like Saul should have been awarded for not following his boss. He was a whistle blower and a good man.

    This story reminds me so much of the Nazi's and how some officers would refuse to kill Jews for Hitler, and in turn they themselves would be punished for it.

    You put in the roles here... Who's who?

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    You have already made some big assumptions. Who's to say those tribes were even human? All those Canaanite derived tribes were the unsanctioned, genetically modified Nephilim hybrids (GMO) that were contaminating the human genome. They Bible talks about wheat and tares. They look like us, but they are not worthy of your sympathy, because they weren't even real humans according to the Bible. That's why God was so seemingly ruthless in His mandates to eradicate their DNA. That's why the world was flooded, and that's why Joshua was given a similar task as Saul, to clear the land of all the -ite tribes.
    I have not read much about this and am very interested in all this... if you could give me a quick run down about this history of these non-human species mentioned in the bible I would appreciate it D. Nothing elaborate just a quick run down.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    If the results and motives are bad, then the war itself is bad.
    The war is always bad. Nothing about it--it's motives, outcomes, necessity can ever make it a good thing. It's always a bad thing, but it CAN be for a good cause.

    D.. I will look into the book. It will frustrate me to read something like this with my tendency to argue to death about this topic lol but I'll try.

    And from me... youtube "God on trial" and watch the entire movie. Theres 9 parts I believe not too long. Beautiful philosophical movie we had to watch in my philosophy class about everything we're talking about. You will like it very much trust me. Please watch it on your free time.

    Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

    This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life.
    .
    this is a point I try to make frequently. The god of the OT is not a nice and kind god, it is a flawed, human like god with major personality issues. He would be a freudian nightmare
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I don't think the true God of our magnificent universe has this aspect about him.

    This is not a Godly aspect to have at all, but more of a power hungry dictator aspect where obedience is the number one priority over EVERYTHING, including human freedom and right to life. ...
    Yes, it could be a bunch of crap, that was instituted to control people with fear. At first, that's certainly what the Bible appears to be.

    But the whole point of my argument, is what if it's not? What if it is true (at least to some important degree), and what would be the pertinent implications of that?

    I won't speculate about what a "Godly aspect" should even be, how can I criticize? I'm not God. All I really expected from my parents was to be honest with me. As long as God's truthful with me, I can adapt to His will. If there really is a sovereign god, it would necessarily be futile to oppose him anyway.

    Read that book man! If nothing else, it may dispel some of your preconceptions and allow you an enhanced new perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Obedience is more important to God than human good intentions.
    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing.
    "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is a point I try to make frequently. The god of the OT is not a nice and kind god, it is a flawed, human like god with major personality issues. He would be a freudian nightmare
    I agree so much. And sometimes when I say this people try to separate the OT God from the NT God as if the OT does not count or something lol.

    Also, if Jesus is God, then we must accept that Jesus was also the OT God. Jesus sure changes his mind throughout history...

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, it could be a bunch of crap, that was instituted to control people with fear. At first, that's certainly what the Bible appears to be.

    But the whole point of my argument, is what if it's not? What if it is true (at least to some important degree), and what would be the pertinent implications of that?
    What are you trying to say? Theres a chance I can go to hell? I'm willing to put my life on the line because that's how confident I am that the creator of our universe would have never designed a "hell." Here is a passage from one of my works:

    Revelation 14: 10-11 says that the devil and all the wicked "...shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever.” Now, torture is a human invention. It is found nowhere in the animal kingdom. It is only prevalent in human society. Torture is used to achieve a purpose, whether it is a confession, a punishment, or a psychopath’s use of torture for sadistic stimulation. Now, we humans use jail as a form of torture just as God uses hell as a form of torture. However, there is a big difference between the Godly method and human method. We humans put people in jail to rehabilitate them with rehabilitation programs and such. There is no rehabilitation using God’s method of torture into infinity. So then, who would you say has devised a better method of dealing with offenders? It is clear that the human way is better. For if the human punishment and rehabilitation method turns even one person around, it has become superior to the method of hell which ultimately never turns one person around. What is the point of making people suffer if there is no redemption? Brutality for the sake of brutality is a characteristic of the Bible God.

    One of the many reasons I don't believe in hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."
    Dunn... I don't think we humans give ourselves enough credit.

    We follow a God blindly even when he asks us to do something WE KNOW in our heart and soul and every shred of our being that what he is telling us to do is wrong. And when one of us stands up and asks questions.. questions that aren't supposed to be asked...We are given what you just told me. Trust in the lord. It will work out.

    Diversions I say. We are smarter than this. We find solutions and answers to everything as humans but when we are dealing with the sensitive topic of our Bible God, we refuse to bury deep into the mystery. We just "trust" it. That is not in me to do as a human.

    I will never trust in any God we humans have come up with. We humans cannot comprehend the maker of our universe and he is not from any Religion man has designed.

    Every God from every Religion is man made. We don't know God.

    "Round in a circle we march and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and knows."
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    "Also, we can go on forever arguing like this lol... any third party want to weigh in on what we were talking about? Feel free to, I'd love to here others perspectives on this issue we are discussing."


    Well I tried , you can lead a horse to water but...

    so I will introduce some Atheist humor ...
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    gotta love the athiest humor

    the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

    Just my other 2 cents
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    gotta love the athiest humor

    the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

    Just my other 2 cents
    Agreed.

    In this forum now purely for entertainment.
    Next time some one posts another quote from the NT or OT I will post another athiest humor pic.
    Can not have a logical discussion if the other party will not even try to look outside his beliefs without constantly thinking " This Must be the Devils work "

    Allmost reminds me of The Water Boy lol
    " GIRLS ARE THE DEVIL !!! " etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Dunn... I don't think we humans give ourselves enough credit.

    We follow a God blindly even when he asks us to do something WE KNOW in our heart and soul and every shred of our being that what he is telling us to do is wrong. And when one of us stands up and asks questions.. questions that aren't supposed to be asked...We are given what you just told me. Trust in the lord. It will work out.

    Diversions I say. We are smarter than this. We find solutions and answers to everything as humans but when we are dealing with the sensitive topic of our Bible God, we refuse to bury deep into the mystery. We just "trust" it. That is not in me to do as a human.

    I will never trust in any God we humans have come up with. We humans cannot comprehend the maker of our universe and he is not from any Religion man has designed.

    Every God from every Religion is man made. We don't know God.

    "Round in a circle we march and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and knows."
    It did not say to simply trust and it will work out. It also stated to lean not on your own understanding and in all of your ways acknowledge him.

    Personalize your statement - When do YOU follow God blindly even when he asks YOU to do something YOU KNOW in YOUR heart and soul and every shred of YOUR being that what he is telling YOU to do is wrong?

    If you live by your nature you can expect it's fruit. When you are living supernaturally (outside of your natural human tendency) you begin to experience a supernatural life - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    You cannot walk and talk faithlessly and expect to reap the fruits of the faithful. It does not work like that.

    Human's give themselves plenty of credit. Just ask one - they'll tell you all they've accomplished on their own.

    Religion is a man made set of rules - Faith is a relationship. The religion god you refer to is not the God I have a personal relationship with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    ... Now, torture is a human invention. It is found nowhere in the animal kingdom. It is only prevalent in human society. ...
    So, we are not animals? You admit we are more than just animals?? You said it, brah.

    This IS your time to repent, while you still live. Hell is not about torment for the sadistic pleasure of your judge, eternal torment is the most potent motive and deterrent for not living your life in ignorance and denial. Hell is a negative incentive. It's designed to inspire you to obey God's will, and heaven is God's reward of appreciation for those who do. Don't you get fired if you screw the boss over at work, but don't you get a bonus or promotion if you excel? Even Earthly jobs and tests follow this same criteria. Plus, there won't be any jails in heaven. You won't be allowed to enter the gate and spoil it for everybody else if you don't demonstrate here on Earth that you're willing to behave in God's will. So if not hell, where would the others go? There must be a hell. Basically, you'll get in wherever you fit in, and the only people in hell are the ones that wanted to be there.

    Just like any test (yes, life is a test) when the class bell rings you put down your pencil and turn in your test. It is going to receive a grade whether you answered all the questions on not. There are no retests next week if you slept in late for class and didn't finish all the questions. There is no "everybody is a winner" like the libtard's Utopian dream we live in today. In reality, there will be winners that met the criteria and losers like you that want their cake and eat it too. It's your decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    gotta love the athiest humor

    the counter that would be used is that we must have faith in gods will. My question of course is why? At the end of the day, when I die, if I go to meet some divine being who banishes me for not believing, then it is not all love and all good. It is petty and childish. My hope would be that this being would see me and know that I worked hard for my family, raised my daughter right, and lived the right way.

    Just my other 2 cents
    What about your own conscience? It's not God you have to worry about AE, it's your own conscience that will testify against you after death. Any guilt in your life? Just eliminate it, because you'll get what you gave in the end.
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    The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    What about your own conscience? It's not God you have to worry about AE, it's your own conscience that will testify against you after death. Any guilt in your life? Just eliminate it, because you'll get what you gave in the end.
    Ahh the Buddhist/Hindu concept of Kharma. Which predates Christian theology by centuries.

    All seriousness, I cannot imagine that there is something deep down in my mind that would send me in the wrong direction (assuming there is a wrong direction).
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Ahh the Buddhist/Hindu concept of Kharma. Which predates Christian theology by centuries.
    Yes, a very similar concept. But this applies only to guys like you (agnostics) that are unaware of God. For believers and atheists there will be direct judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    All seriousness, I cannot imagine that there is something deep down in my mind that would send me in the wrong direction (assuming there is a wrong direction).
    Sounds like you're not in a bad spot then. Life can still be quite rewarding from your position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, a very similar concept. But this applies only to guys like you (agnostics) that are unaware of God. For believers and atheists there will be direct judgment.



    Sounds like you're not in a bad spot then. Life can still be quite rewarding from your position.
    We will all find out eventually
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsexy74 View Post
    The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.
    This is true! "Hell" is not the second death, just the grave (1'st death.)
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    Dr D -

    With you 100%.

    Good to see your still around, as well!

    -Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Personalize your statement - When do YOU follow God blindly even when he asks YOU to do something YOU KNOW in YOUR heart and soul and every shred of YOUR being that what he is telling YOU to do is wrong?
    I'll tell you what he is asking me to do right now that's wrong...

    He is asking me to follow a book (the Bible), in which the God of the book, brings nations to war, kills, and asks of others to kill in his name.

    It goes against my deep morals to follow such a book, morals that I will admit were installed in me from the same book to begin with! Love all things and people REGARDLESS of ANYTHING.

    He is asking me to follow him, and he is wrong in what he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    If you live by your nature you can expect it's fruit. When you are living supernaturally (outside of your natural human tendency) you begin to experience a supernatural life - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    You cannot walk and talk faithlessly and expect to reap the fruits of the faithful. It does not work like that.
    I don't have to believe in the Bible God to live a spiritual life. I live a very spiritually fulfilling life... more satisfying then you think.

    I talk of faith, I believe in a "Higher Form of Intelligence" that surpasses human capability... because let's face it, we are the most special thing walking the earth as know it. We are intelligent life.

    I don't reap any fruits I have not planted.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Religion is a man made set of rules - Faith is a relationship. The religion god you refer to is not the God I have a personal relationship with.
    I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    You won't be allowed to enter the gate and spoil it for everybody else if you don't demonstrate here on Earth that you're willing to behave in God's will. So if not hell, where would the others go?
    You know what's flawed about what you said right here D... Ok, you agree that bad people cannot be put in heaven. Now, we are all sinners. We sin constantly. It's impossible to live a perfect life.

    What happens all of the sudden when we get to heaven? Is it sinless in there? Do we change forms so we cannot sin? What is gonna stop us from sinning in heaven?

    There must be something.

    So then, why don't bad people just be put through this spiritual cleansing that is needed to enter heaven. Why put anyone in hell? You know a process must be undergone anyways that transforms us humans into perfect beings that qualify for heaven. Why not make the bad people perfect beings when you CAN. What kind of a sick God wouldn't do this to all of his creations if he COULD. And he can, and does, and will.... to some. Not all loving as he proclaims IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Just like any test (yes, life is a test) when the class bell rings you put down your pencil and turn in your test. It is going to receive a grade whether you answered all the questions on not. There are no retests next week if you slept in late for class and didn't finish all the questions.
    I have had many a times where the teacher has allowed me to re-test. There is no re-tests with God is what you're saying. My goodness are humans showing more compassion than Almighty God? It appears so the more I move through life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'll tell you what he is asking me to do right now that's wrong...

    He is asking me to follow a book (the Bible), in which the God of the book, brings nations to war, kills, and asks of others to kill in his name.

    It goes against my deep morals to follow such a book, morals that I will admit were installed in me from the same book to begin with! Love all things and people REGARDLESS of ANYTHING.

    He is asking me to follow him, and he is wrong in what he does.



    I don't have to believe in the Bible God to live a spiritual life. I live a very spiritually fulfilling life... more satisfying then you think.

    I talk of faith, I believe in a "Higher Form of Intelligence" that surpasses human capability... because let's face it, we are the most special thing walking the earth as know it. We are intelligent life.

    I don't reap any fruits I have not planted.



    I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?
    You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

    If you read further in that same book, in the New Testament, you will find a New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ.

    Christ is asking you to follow Him and He is not wrong it what He did or does. Get to know Him and you may find you have a different understanding of God, His ways and His will all together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

    If you read further in that same book, in the New Testament, you will find a New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ.

    Christ is asking you to follow Him and He is not wrong it what He did or does. Get to know Him and you may find you have a different understanding of God, His ways and His will all together.
    Excellent point. The OT God of wrath and destruction sent his son Jesus, as a sinless sacrifice to create a new contract or covenant. Where did Jesus inflict death and destruction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    This is very true D. However, with this ideology, a court ruling would always be considered an erroneous conclusion. So would many other things.

    There are numerous things that we can NEVER prove. It's just impossible to know for a sure fact that the Genesis story was borrowed from the Sumerian tablets logically speaking, however, I do believe we have smoking gun evidence for this.



    Oh but it does. Believing in a God could surely lead to destruction.

    I will be 100% honest with you... when I was a deep Christian, I would hope everyday that some world disaster occurred. I wanted a big war to happen. And I think MANY believers in Christ WANT bad things to happen. Why? So that Jesus can come again.

    Can you believe that? I lived my life hoping for war, famine, destruction, all so that my "savior" would come.

    Horrible mode of thinking. Planting a seed like that in your mind where you welcome destruction is a disgusting seed to plant in yourself and leads to a mentally retarded person incapable of being truly compassionate.

    And for me... and many of you (I know many of you want the same things I did), it was my belief in God that fully welcomed destruction with open arms.
    You never really stated why you felt this way. Wanting war and destruction so the savior will come seems a bit twisted. There are very specific things listed in the Bible that will happen before Jesus will return. Just creating war and famine isn't going to make it happen. One thing that must happen is the Temple must be rebuilt. Last I checked it hasn't yet. Israel has to be attacked and their attackers Will be destroyed in such a way that only God could do to protect his chosen people. All nations will turn against Israel, which is slowly happening. So if you followed Christ and know what will happen before his return, you would have known it is still a ways off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.

    Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

    God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
    9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

    God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
    1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

    Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
    "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



    "The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



    "Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

    So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

    The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

    The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

    Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

    I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

    God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
    9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

    God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
    1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

    Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
    "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



    "The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



    "Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

    So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

    The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

    The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

    Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

    I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.
    You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

    God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
    9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead

    God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value
    1 Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." 3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them--the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city--men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

    Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead
    "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



    "The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



    "Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

    So many examples such as the three above. If you wish I will provide more. Just dont wanna lose anyone with A.D.D.

    The point is WHY would any Moral man choose to follow a god such as this ?

    The New Testament does not erase the old. If you would like proof of this I will be glad to provide it.

    Jesus - Yaweh - The holy ghost - the burning bush- Whatever you want to call him he is still the Christian God.

    I hate quoting anything out of the OT or NT but since this is your god I will.
    You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a relationship with God. In the OT you couldn't have a personal relationship with him, you just went to the temple and the Priest interacted with God on your behalf. When Christ died on the cross, the old rules where changed. You can't argue how bad the God od the OT is without finishing the story and seeing how God changed things.

    Jesus never sinned. Never had anyone killed. He transformed one of the greatest persecutors of Christians, Saul, into the greatest apostle, Paul. He transformed a murderer from the inside out. You can't just ignore the rest of the book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You still haven't addressed the NT and the new covenant created when Jesus Christ came to the earth. You keep quoting OT but haven't found a NT scripture where Jesus Christ inflicted or directed death and destruction. The new covenant with Jesus Christ is vitally important in having a
    This is a popular scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and crazy laws commanded by their god.
    The NT Demands that the old laws be adhered :

    Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament

    God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell.

    Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die"

    “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..."

    "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." 2 Peter 20-21

    Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Matthew 5:17

    All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17

    This is YOUR god not mine.

    You can not call yourself a Christian and IGNORE the OT.
    But in any case I gave you some examples.
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    By the way I am not ignoring the book , YOU are my friend.

    Same God Same Beliefs Same Laws
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Ok lets look at this so called JUST and RIGHTEOUS judgment by the Chrstian god.

    God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people :
    9 The LORD said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' " 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD--days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me." 13 David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men." 14 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead
    Lets do this one at a time. You seem to selectively quote scripture that skews the observer to see it the way you would like. The previous portion of that chapter is very telling:

    1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, "Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are."

    3 But Joab replied, "May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord's subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?"

    4 The king's word, however, overruled Joab; so Joab left and went throughout Israel and then came back to Jerusalem. 5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.

    6 But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king's command was repulsive to him. 7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel.

    8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

    I stand on my statement that He is just and righteous in His judgment of man's disobedience. You seem to think you can judge what is right and wrong in the site of God and then judge what is just in recompense for your disobedience. God does not need your approval.
    Why did God punish King David
    for taking a CENSUS?

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    Q. The books of 1Samuel and 1Chronicles discuss King David and his taking of a census. Why was David punished by God for doing this? Is taking a census a SIN?

    (Submitted by: Zozo)

    A. The taking of census is not a sin – but the REASON for doing it could be:

    "And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chronicles 21:1, KJV, emphasis throughout)

    Satan moved in spiritual warfare against the whole nation of Israel – not just the king. With his cunning ways the devil set out to entice David to sin by numbering his army – which David did!

    "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (2Samuel 24:1, KJV)

    The above verse in the King James Version Bible tends to give a WRONG understanding to the reader. The 1Chronicles 21:1 KJV verse quoted earlier and the below scripture quote from the Young's Literal Translation Bible (YLT) offers a more accurate explanation of what transpired.

    "And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and an adversary [Satan] moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.' " (2Samuel 24:1, YLT)

    It was SATAN that moved David to disobey God. David seems to have been prompted by a feeling of pride and ambitious curiosity. Because he did this to determine HIS power and to trust in it, it offended God. Of itself, taking a census is not unlawful.

    Looking at the above verses we can know that there is an evil intent by their content. Anytime Satan is involved you can be sure he intends to get someone to sin! He put the thought in David’s mind that if he knew the number of young men under his rule (meaning those fit for war) he could brag or boast how great a king he was – by the size of his army!

    "And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why then doth my lord require this thing? WHY WILL HE BE A CAUSE OF TRESPASS TO ISRAEL?" (1Chronicles 21:2-3, emphasis added)

    Joab was warning David NOT to number Israel and bring an occasion of punishment to the nation. In Hebrew, the word "sin" is often used synonymously with the punishment of sin. In the course of Providence, the people frequently suffer for the misconduct of their rulers.

    The primary reason in the Old Testament for taking a census was to know the size of a nation's army and its ability to win wars against other people!

    "And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers." (Numbers 1:1-4)

    "As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai." (Numbers 1:19)

    I'll close with a quote from Easton's Illustrated Bible Dictionary:

    "Besides the numbering of the tribes mentioned in the history of the wanderings in the wilderness, we have an account of a general census of the whole nation from Dan to Beersheba, which David gave directions to Joab to make (1Chronicles 21:1). Joab very reluctantly began to carry out the king's command. This act of David in ordering a numbering of the people arose from pride and a self-glorifying spirit. It indicated a reliance on his part on an arm of flesh, an estimating of his power not by the divine favor but by the material resources of his kingdom. He thought of military achievement and of conquest, and forgot that he was God's vice-regent. In all this he sinned against God.

    "While Joab was engaged in the census, David's heart smote him, and he became deeply conscious of his fault; and in profound humiliation he confessed, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done." The prophet Gad was sent to him to put before him three dreadful alternatives (2Samuel 24:13; for "seven years" in this verse, the LXX. and 1Chronicles 21:12 have "three years"), three of Jehovah's four sore judgments (Ezekiel 14:21). Two of these David had already experienced. He had fled for some months before Absalom, and had suffered three years' famine on account of the slaughter of the Gibeonites. In his "strait" David said, 'Let me fall into the hands of the Lord.'

    "A pestilence broke out among the people, and in three days swept away 70,000. At David's intercession the plague was stayed, and at the threshing-floor of Araunah (q.v.), where the destroying angel was arrested in his progress, David erected an altar, and there offered up sacrifices to God (2Chronicles 3:1).The census, so far as completed, showed that there were at least 1,300,000 fighting men in the kingdom, indicating at that time a population of about six or seven millions in all."
    We can pick apart the others later.
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    Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

    And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

    Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Lets do this one at a time. You seem to selectively quote scripture that skews the observer to see it the way you would like. The previous portion of that chapter is very telling:
    isnt that the same technique used by theists all the time? At the end of the day, any excerpt from the OT or NT can be taken and made to seem one way or the other.

    My major concern with OT and NT is the countless mistranslations based on years of retranslating. Right there we see where major messages of the stories would be lost or completely confused, and in essence, seem to not have the same meaning as intended.

    This of course is regardless of the fact that both books gently "borrow" most of their information and stories from much earlier sources.
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    gently "borrow"

    lol your just being kind....er Gentle
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?
    I'm not sure you know the God of the Bible. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Perhaps you know a game called "church". And your preconceptions of the Bible are how they trained you to understand it? That's not a good substitute for a real relationship with God. Once you develop that personal relationship, the Spirit guides your understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    You know what's flawed about what you said right here D... Ok, you agree that bad people cannot be put in heaven. Now, we are all sinners. We sin constantly. It's impossible to live a perfect life.

    What happens all of the sudden when we get to heaven? Is it sinless in there? Do we change forms so we cannot sin? What is gonna stop us from sinning in heaven?

    There must be something.

    So then, why don't bad people just be put through this spiritual cleansing that is needed to enter heaven. Why put anyone in hell? You know a process must be undergone anyways that transforms us humans into perfect beings that qualify for heaven. Why not make the bad people perfect beings when you CAN. What kind of a sick God wouldn't do this to all of his creations if he COULD. And he can, and does, and will.... to some. Not all loving as he proclaims IMO.
    This is a solid question, and it's important to grasp. God has the capacity to perfect everything right now. In fact that was the plan from the start, a perfect species living an amazing existence! So why doesn't He fix it? Because free will is an imperative. The potential for evil is necessary. Bad is needed in order to define good. So why is free will so essential, especially if it allows for the possibility of sin? Because it also allows for the possibility of love, and without love, nothing else would matter. We can make bad choices if we choose. We can abuse our free will to do evil things. But freedom is nonetheless necessary, even though some choose bad. If we didn't have the freedom to choose, we couldn't choose love either, and we'd have no personal involvement or potential to evolve into anything more.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I have had many a times where the teacher has allowed me to re-test. There is no re-tests with God is what you're saying. My goodness are humans showing more compassion than Almighty God? It appears so the more I move through life.
    Has any teacher ever given you a 20 year test?! God gives you a whole lifetime of second chances and do-overs. Choose you this day while you still can, because you've had plenty of second chances and extensions bro. There will be no excuses when you turn your test in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You never really stated why you felt this way. Wanting war and destruction so the savior will come seems a bit twisted. There are very specific things listed in the Bible that will happen before Jesus will return. Just creating war and famine isn't going to make it happen. One thing that must happen is the Temple must be rebuilt. Last I checked it hasn't yet. Israel has to be attacked and their attackers Will be destroyed in such a way that only God could do to protect his chosen people. All nations will turn against Israel, which is slowly happening. So if you followed Christ and know what will happen before his return, you would have known it is still a ways off.
    Well said!

    I think guys like CM that abandoned their Christianity were like the seeds that fell on rocky ground. Their faith never took root, so of course they fell away in time. Prophecy is just stating the future before it happens, so that it's accuracy can be validated 1000's of years later. Watch though, even as it unfolds, I bet many of these same guys will be in total denial and making every excuse possible to ignore it away! That's the only reason I still waste my breath on this, so that maybe a few of my friends here might come to their senses when they finally realize it's true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

    And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

    Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.
    Really, then who are you following right now? Why are you away from your family, fighting in a foreign land? Fighting people that never did a dam thing to you or yours. And oh yes, you'd rape and kill women. You'd kill babies too if you haven't already, if they told you to do it. And the one's you follow aren't even gods, but you follow them anyway for a paycheck!

    I suggest you think real hard about what YOU are putting YOUR faith in, and the hypocrisy of your opinions, soldier boy. Then if you find yourself innocent, you can pick those stones back up and keep throwing them at God and everybody else, from that glass house of yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm not sure you know the God of the Bible. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Perhaps you know a game called "church". And your preconceptions of the Bible are how they trained you to understand it? That's not a good substitute for a real relationship with God. Once you develop that personal relationship, the Spirit guides your understanding.



    This is a solid question, and it's important to grasp. God has the capacity to perfect everything right now. In fact that was the plan from the start, a perfect species living an amazing existence! So why doesn't He fix it? Because free will is an imperative. The potential for evil is necessary. Bad is needed in order to define good. So why is free will so essential, especially if it allows for the possibility of sin? Because it also allows for the possibility of love, and without love, nothing else would matter. We can make bad choices if we choose. We can abuse our free will to do evil things. But freedom is nonetheless necessary, even though some choose bad. If we didn't have the freedom to choose, we couldn't choose love either, and we'd have no personal involvement or potential to evolve into anything more.



    Has any teacher ever given you a 20 year test?! God gives you a whole lifetime of second chances and do-overs. Choose you this day while you still can, because you've had plenty of second chances and extensions bro. There will be no excuses when you turn your test in.
    Allright DR.D

    Freewill
    They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God....

    Well no. Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible. To put it in a nice way.


    Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

    Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

    This god you say you have a personal relationship with, he is all knowing, all powerfull....omniscient ??? Yes ?
    When god created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Really, then who are you following right now? Why are you away from your family, fighting in a foreign land? Fighting people that never did a dam thing to you or yours. And oh yes, you'd rape and kill women. You'd kill babies too if you haven't already, if they told you to do it. And the one's you follow aren't even gods, but you follow them anyway for a paycheck!

    I suggest you think real hard about what YOU are putting YOUR faith in, and the hypocrisy of your opinions, soldier boy. Then if you find yourself innocent, you can pick those stones back up and keep throwing them at God and everybody else, from that glass house of yours.
    I do what I am GOOD AT and a make a pretty penny doing it too.
    Have you not figured out by now I have no belief in a supernatural god ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

    And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

    Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.
    I certainly do not ignore them. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    isnt that the same technique used by theists all the time? At the end of the day, any excerpt from the OT or NT can be taken and made to seem one way or the other.

    My major concern with OT and NT is the countless mistranslations based on years of retranslating. Right there we see where major messages of the stories would be lost or completely confused, and in essence, seem to not have the same meaning as intended.

    This of course is regardless of the fact that both books gently "borrow" most of their information and stories from much earlier sources.
    I do completely agree with the potential for this to cause misinterpretations.

    You and are are smart enough to know the inherent risk at taking the text as translated on simple face value. When I study the word of God as is presented in the Bible I do origin interpretation. IOW our pastor has a doctorate in bible theology and presents it as originally penned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I certainly do not ignore them. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
    sure

    God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is...
  

  
 

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