Cant gain muscle weight, thinking about prohormones mabe?

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Cant gain muscle weight, thinking about prohormones mabe?


    Prohormones apparently work great for building muscle but im guessing there are side effect anybody take them that could tell me if I should take them and what to expect when taking them

  2. Board Supporter
    jimbuick's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    10,332
    Rep Power
    7367365
    Level
    98
    Lv. Percent
    47.41%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranActivity RoyaltyPosting Pro

    You shouldn't take them.

    If you can't gain weight your diet needs work. Eat more.
    Body Performance Solutions Representative

    Check out our products at www.bpsnutrition.net
    Check out our FaceBook page at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Body-Performance-Solutions/191322614238042
  3. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Man im trying it doesnt matter if I eat the hell out of protein or how many protein shakes I take or if I eat junk food. I gained 12 lbs in a month and a half when I started lifting again and then idk feeling bumbed out...... just cant gain, idk should start eating more meals in a day ?
    •   
       

  4. Diamond Member
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,732
    Rep Power
    3494582
    Level
    90
    Lv. Percent
    32.75%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Man im trying it doesnt matter if I eat the hell out of protein or how many protein shakes I take or if I eat junk food. I gained 12 lbs in a month and a half when I started lifting again and then idk feeling bumbed out...... just cant gain, idk should start eating more meals in a day ?
    That's your problem. You relate weight gain to how many protein shakes you drink. Protein powder is food, meant to supplement your diet when you can't achieve your protein intake by food alone. There's days I don't touch protein powder because I still get in enough via food. Even protein alone won't make you gain weight.

    You gained 12lbs, to maintain that and continue, you must eat more. The bigger you are, the more calories you need. Simple as that.

    Prohormones are steroids. Except that. They won't make you gain weight. The only thing in the entire world that will make you gain weight, is a caloric surplus. The ONLY THING!!

    If you don't gain weight naturally because you aren't eating enough, prohormones won't do it either. What are the prohormones going to use to build muscle? Food

    Do you know how many calories are needed to maintain your current body weight? How many carbs and fats are you taking in a day? From what sources? How many days per week are you training?

    There's numerous variables that you need to know for yourself and to answer before anyone can provide you with anymore help.

    Don't take any prohormones. Save those for when you have done everything humanly possible to gain weight via calories and and natural supplementation. Taking more protein shakes and not gaining doesn't mean you're maximizing your potential
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  5. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Monday-Chest
    Tuesday-triceps
    Wednesday-legs and back
    Thrusday- biceps and shoulders
    Friday-abs and traps

    Eating lots of deer steaks that i got from hunting and deer sausage
    Lots of turkey meat, peanut butter,and bannas every once in a while, brats, and a protein shake every morning and after workout
  6. Diamond Member
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,732
    Rep Power
    3494582
    Level
    90
    Lv. Percent
    32.75%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Monday-Chest
    Tuesday-triceps
    Wednesday-legs and back
    Thrusday- biceps and shoulders
    Friday-abs and traps

    Eating lots of deer steaks that i got from hunting and deer sausage
    Lots of turkey meat, peanut butter,and bannas every once in a while, brats, and a protein shake every morning and after workout
    A day dedicated to triceps is pointless. You hit them with chest the day before.

    Training legs and back together is a bad idea..the two largest muscles on your body.

    A day for traps is absolutely ridiculous. They're back muscles, train them with back. They'll actually grow more from rowing than from shrugging. That "peak" that everyone wants, is just 1/8 of the muscle. They travel down your upper back.

    Give yourself more rest days. I recommend a 4 day per week Upper/Lower/Upper/Lower plan.

    You gave your food list. The only carb source you listed was a banana. Why?

    Height? Weight? Exactly how many calories do you eat per day?
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  7. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    5' 6 135 lbs I just thought I need to pack a lot of protein into my diet to gain muscle so thats why I dont have other things in my food plan
  8. Diamond Member
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,732
    Rep Power
    3494582
    Level
    90
    Lv. Percent
    32.75%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    5' 6 135 lbs I just thought I need to pack a lot of protein into my diet to gain muscle so thats why I dont have other things in my food plan
    Nope. Protein only contains 4 calories per gram. It's not a lot. Excess protein is....excessive

    1-1.5g of protein per pound of body weight
    .5-1g of fat per pound
    The rest fill with carbs

    Protein will repair the muscle. You need fats and carbs to grow (in my opinion)

    You've got the protein sources down. Carbs-sweet potatoes, rice, whole grains. Fats-red meat, fish, nuts, avacado, coconut/olive oils ect

    You've gotta eat more than just protein. That's only one small peice of the puzzle.

    I like T-Bones recommendation. Find a basic book on eating for strength training. On top of that, look up the book Starting Strength.
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  9. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    I do triceps on a differnt day cause when I do it on chest day I cant do as much weight and reps (have to drop 20 lb on skull cruchers) cause there tired from the other exercises, and I do traps on friday with abs just to kinda give me another rest days cause I thought I might have been over exercising and thats why I wasnt gaining weight but il start working traps on back day then. Really been messing with my routine to try to figure something out why I ain gaining muscle thats why its all messed up right now
  10. Board Supporter
    jimbuick's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    10,332
    Rep Power
    7367365
    Level
    98
    Lv. Percent
    47.41%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranActivity RoyaltyPosting Pro
    Body Performance Solutions Representative

    Check out our products at www.bpsnutrition.net
    Check out our FaceBook page at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Body-Performance-Solutions/191322614238042
  11. Professional Member
    drewsicle3210's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Age
    32
    Posts
    3,932
    Rep Power
    2870706
    Level
    75
    Lv. Percent
    2.19%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting Pro

    You have a ways to go with your diet and WORKOUT PLAN. Stay away from PH's for a bit, you don't need them right now. Lots of good advice in this thread, execute what has been suggested and you will be impressed with the results.
  12. Senior Member
    PaulBlack's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,816
    Rep Power
    115626
    Level
    38
    Lv. Percent
    47.87%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Agree with Sean.

    Most of your focus on gaining overall mass and B weight revolves around or puts the most emphasis on, the smallest muscles!?!?
    You comment on not having enough gas for the tris after BP's day, but put legs and back (the 2 largest groups) on only one day a week training!?

    Also, personally, the whole idea with supplements and or especially more dangerous PH's etc., being the difference between you gaining or not, is not a good or healthy approach or outlook at all. They will not make that difference.
    80%-90% of anyone's best gains, will be from a focus on good compound exercises and good solid natural food.


    IMO, look into proven 5x5's and or more large body muscle group work, if you want to gain overall size and strength and worry about triceps or biceps only after hard work is put in on the big compounds.
  13. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Thanks everyone glad u guys know what ur talking about im gonna start doing all this advice uv been telling me a try it out and see what happens
  14. Board Sponsor
    Rodja's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Age
    30
    Posts
    23,265
    Rep Power
    963225
    Level
    92
    Lv. Percent
    39.93%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Thanks everyone glad u guys know what ur talking about im gonna start doing all this advice uv been telling me a try it out and see what happens
    Don't just see what happens; you have to make it happen.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
  15. Professional Member
    drewsicle3210's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Age
    32
    Posts
    3,932
    Rep Power
    2870706
    Level
    75
    Lv. Percent
    2.19%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Don't just see what happens; you have to make it happen.
    Damn right, cause if you build it...gains will come!!
  16. Professional Member
    drewsicle3210's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Age
    32
    Posts
    3,932
    Rep Power
    2870706
    Level
    75
    Lv. Percent
    2.19%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting Pro

    ^^^Field of Dreams reference
  17. Elite Member
    Piston Honda's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5,095
    Rep Power
    7469455
    Level
    91
    Lv. Percent
    0.82%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Train to failure every set, every workout. Then watch your hunger increase, and your weight/muscle concordantly.
    BOARD TYRANT
  18. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Iv been doing a lot of drop sets when I do my sets I do my max (4-6 reps) for 4 sets and as soon as im done with my 4th I drop 10lb every 30 sec and I get a great burn and pump when I do this way
  19. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    I get real hungry about every 2 - 2 1\2 hours but dont get to eat that often cause of work
  20. Diamond Member
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,732
    Rep Power
    3494582
    Level
    90
    Lv. Percent
    32.75%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Doesn't matter. What matters is your total calories at the end of the day. I have the worst job ever in terms of eating, and I make out fine
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  21. Senior Member
    PaulBlack's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,816
    Rep Power
    115626
    Level
    38
    Lv. Percent
    47.87%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Iv been doing a lot of drop sets when I do my sets I do my max (4-6 reps) for 4 sets and as soon as im done with my 4th I drop 10lb every 30 sec and I get a great burn and pump when I do this way
    To reiterate my post above, what you are doing here, works okay for the smaller groups, since they will not beat down your system. However, I am guessing you're not doing this with the large groups!?
    A burn and pump is okay I suppose, but to me, does not always prove growth in mass and strength. You are going to be better off with simple progression (adding weight and or reps/sets) and straight forward multi set/rep execution, over say a month or 2 or 3. ie; Starting say squats, deads, rows, BP's, standing OHP's with x amount of weight and add #5-#10 per week for a cycle while taking in enough food. At the end of the cycle, regroup with lower weights again and take another run. Adding weight to these biggest exercises, without having to use all the fancy drop sets, intensities, forced reps etc. etc. is where you are going to transform the largest musculature of the body, into accepting heavier and heavier loads and growing the entire body larger and of course stronger.
    Then worry about the small stuff and however you want to program it. My guess is, if you are hitting the big stuff hard enough, with multi sets and reps (adding weight weekly) you will not be that interested in doing drop sets afterwards on say arms. A few sets of heavy straight weight will most likely be plenty.
    I used to train my arms until I could hardly move them with tons of volume and intensity, it did very little after a point for size, compared to heavy rows, chins BP's etc. along with eating enough.
  22. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    How many carbs should I be eating a day?
  23. Senior Member
    PaulBlack's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,816
    Rep Power
    115626
    Level
    38
    Lv. Percent
    47.87%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Personally, I have never worried about all that. (But I am not a lean cut bodybuilder either) I just ate a balanced diet, and ate enough. If the scale was going up, I was eating enough and adjusted accordingly.
    If you are interested in gaining some weight and strength, then put the effort and focus on the big stuff and the little stuff takes care of itself. If however you are interested in a very lean BBer body and cuts, you have to make all the adjustments necessary. Limiting the diet in this way however, will find it harder to gain all over muscular BW.
  24. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Not interested in being really cut, right now thats how my body is, now I want to gain about another 15 - 20 lbs in muscle I can cut later cause loosing weight easy for me
  25. Diamond Member
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,732
    Rep Power
    3494582
    Level
    90
    Lv. Percent
    32.75%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Not interested in being really cut, right now thats how my body is, now I want to gain about another 15 - 20 lbs in muscle I can cut later cause loosing weight easy for me
    Calculate your TDEE using an online calculator. Add 500 on that. Eat that or more. 1-1.5g protein per lb of BW. .5g+ of fat per lb of BW. The rest, will up with carbs. Figure the math out.

    Eat eat eat eat and don't stop eating. If you think you are enough, you're wrong-go eat more.

    Look up carb cycling articles on T-Nation and see if that interests you
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  26. Banned
    absurd's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    149
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    14.84%

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    How many carbs should I be eating a day?
    That guy was right the end calories matter most but if your 1000 calories shy at the end of the day it will be tough cramming that many down so a weight gainer shake will help while your at work 750 calories easy. Carbs I'd do 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat or you could do 50/40/10 it's all up to you.
  27. New Member
    DrDeca's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  160 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    119
    Rep Power
    1984
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    94.01%

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_The_Boss View Post
    Prohormones apparently work great for building muscle but im guessing there are side effect anybody take them that could tell me if I should take them and what to expect when taking them
    Do your research buddy. Whats your age? weight. height. weight lifting experience? and hows your diet. They wont do **** without your diet being spot on. And side effects are hefty. Get a solid PCT before you go buying prohormones. id buy a pct first. incase u get gyno or some **** during cycle.
  28. New Member
    kp2012's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  100 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    124
    Rep Power
    245
    Level
    10
    Lv. Percent
    58.61%

    dude you're no way ready for PH..no hate, but you have NO idea on training or nutrition yet. stay away from them, do more research via these threads etc and you'll grow heaps, i promise. how old are you man?
  29. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    .....24
  30. New Member
    kp2012's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  100 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    124
    Rep Power
    245
    Level
    10
    Lv. Percent
    58.61%

    yeah man, definitely plenty of room for growth without the pH. i suggest you hire a coach, i coach bodybuilders here in NZ and online for comps etc, i'll be happy to help you
  31. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Just wondering, im not on any ph but why not, wont it make me gain a lot of muscle mass fast? My friends like 36 years old hes done 2 cycles and he gains 20 +lbs everytime. Just needing a reason why ur all against the ph. Please give me ur opinions
  32. New Member
    kp2012's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  100 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    124
    Rep Power
    245
    Level
    10
    Lv. Percent
    58.61%

    not against them as such, but its the fact that currently you're looking for an easy way out bro. going from 135-150lbs naturally isn't hard at all if you have your diet and training in check. what we're trying to say, is do them in the future if you want, but for now its a waste of time, as you'll only get to levels that you would have got to naturally anyway, then you'll end up losing them if you cant eat and train properly. its all a full circle kind of situation here man, gotta make sure you do it right or its a waste of time, money and health
  33. New Member
    ecto84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    67
    Rep Power
    183
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    94.37%

    I have the same problem dude. Cant get enough calories, but I struggle. One other thing you could try is to get some probiotics (healthy gut bacteria) in your system, this would help you to better digest the food and get more nutrients into the blood stream.
  34. New Member
    Ross_The_Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    24
    Level
    3
    Lv. Percent
    69.25%

    Alright thanks guys.... iv actually gained 6lbs since I started this post and you all told me how to eat better up to 141
  35. Senior Member
    thegodfather's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  213 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,045
    Rep Power
    113183
    Level
    29
    Lv. Percent
    19.22%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Do yourself a favor and REALLY research a good lifting plan and diet to match. You can't build a house without a foundation, if you do you will fail.
    Remember why you started.
  36. Advanced Member
    BigKrabbe's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  244 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Age
    28
    Posts
    517
    Rep Power
    75992
    Level
    22
    Lv. Percent
    33.98%

    If I could go back now I would have stayed natural far longer than I did. There are TONS of other options to gain more muscle before you start anabolics, supplementation wise non-hormonal anabolics are always an option. Squat, squat, squat, buffet, buffet, buffet, and repeat. You'll gain weight and muscle my man.
  37. New Member
    rush808's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  150 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    203
    Rep Power
    172
    Level
    12
    Lv. Percent
    47.23%

    I concur with everyone here when they say; revamp your training regiment. Should be more like; Legs (squats) - Upper body (Bench; Bar/DB) - Back (Deadlifts, rows).

    But i also believe you shouldnt ignore your isolation excercises. some people wont get awesome calves and defined arms with all body workouts. and it's okay to isolate AFTER your big lifts.

    No one here seem to Hate on PH's, your just not ready to reap the rewards of a PH, so why take the Risk?
  38. New Member
    jmiyamoto's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  171 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    92
    Rep Power
    21753
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    65.25%

    Basically: if you're not able to gain muscle weight, it means you're not eating enough (either not enough calories, not enough protein, or both) and/or not hitting the right rep range/lifts on your workouts. But it's probably "not eating enough." And if you don't do that right, prohormones won't help you. They help you after you can get that right.
  39. New Member
    ecto84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    67
    Rep Power
    183
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    94.37%

    Quote Originally Posted by jmiyamoto View Post
    Basically: if you're not able to gain muscle weight, it means you're not eating enough (either not enough calories, not enough protein, or both) and/or not hitting the right rep range/lifts on your workouts. But it's probably "not eating enough." And if you don't do that right, prohormones won't help you. They help you after you can get that right.
    But one can gain muscle while on gear even if eating under maintainance level. It all depends on dosage.
  40. Senior Member
    PaulBlack's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,816
    Rep Power
    115626
    Level
    38
    Lv. Percent
    47.87%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    It is far safer and most likely will be longer term gains, if done naturally over some time. That way you learn your body's natural responses, don't have to worry about PCT's and jumps up and down in hormone spikes, losing gains easy etc.

    I am not here to preach against them, as I know more advanced guys who have used them and paid their dues, know more or less what they are doing etc., but to just jump in at the start of lifting, because you hear buddies using, or you don't feel you have gotten any gains, needs to be looked at a little more closely naturally, than just popping some chemicals and trying to short cut long term safe natural gains.
    How do you know what you are capable of naturally, if you have not even pushed up against that wall of hard work yet???
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Gaining muscle weight
    By cabes92 in forum Bulking
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 05:35 AM
  2. 7'1, new here, looking to gain muscle/weight
    By stretch in forum Bulking
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 05-03-2009, 07:49 PM
  3. Gaining muscle weight
    By kenwood91 in forum Bulking
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-18-2008, 04:59 PM
  4. please help with losing weight and gaining muscle mass
    By aintfrreshazi in forum Bulking
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-20-2007, 08:21 PM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-29-2007, 08:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in