Post-Workout Carb Debate

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    Post-Workout Carb Debate


    Hey guys-

    It's a long-standing idea that post-workout carbs increase protein synthesis and should be ingested soon after your workout.

    I recently watched a seminar with Kai Greene and George Farah (I'm sure some of you have seen it) where George made a strong case for not taking any sort of carb post-workout because it kills your GH levels.

    Upon reading up on this, I've found (mainly inconclusive) support for both sides of this idea. Now, I thought I'd try to spark the debate with 3 questions-

    1.) Do you believe in post-workout carbs, and why or why not?

    2.) Has anyone read an actual study showing that post-workout carbs boost protein synthesis?

    3.) Should we stop the post-workout carb craze in order to maintain our GH peaks after lifting?

    I'd love some knowledgable input. Thanks in advance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iBulk View Post
    3.) Should we stop the post-workout carb craze in order to maintain our GH peaks after lifting?
    I get the idea, that even if there is a difference, it is not like it is a PED difference.
    I wonder if one could spot the difference, in a trainee who did and didn't?

    I liked what Dan Duchaine wrote about it years ago and with that said, I always have something within an hour of training.
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    Only reason carbs have been pushed post workout is to rise insulin. It's like the protein will get a piggy back ride on the insulin high. The only problem is that muscle cells needs to be receptive to this treatment otherwise you just get fat.
    THe other background info is that type 1 diabetics without any insulin can not process protein. So if you have a friend who was diagnosed with type 1, one of the symptoms is actually weight loss and muscle wasting. However, this may not be as important in someone who has a normal insulin secretion because protein itself will stimulate insulin secretion not as much as carb but enough to get into muscle cells.
    As a result a normal person do not need any sugars post workout to take advantage of the protein intake. On the other side, a diabetic or insulin impaired person may need help to get that protein into the muscle cell.
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    Post-Workout Carb Debate


    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-not-to-carb/

    The pertinent portion;

    "So in plain English, carbohydrates are not needed post-workout to initiate protein synthesis as long as protein intake is adequate. Insulin, however, is important because it prevents the breakdown of muscle. What level does insulin need to be at? A study by R. J. Louard and colleagues found that insulin levels of 15-20 mU/L are sufficient enough to elicit a decrease in protein degradation and that 25 mU/L is about as high as you would need to go before there would be no further benefits. [4] So even if you donít want to use whey protein, high levels of protein can still increase insulin to a high enough extent to reap the benefits. Even leucine alone generates a rather large spike in insulin"

    I'm coming to believe that a protocol of pre w/o meal with some carbs (1/2c oatmeal or similar), an intra with EAA's and up to 40g carbs, and a post of WPI or WPC with leucine is ideal. Wait 1.5h and have a nice carb'y whole food meal.

    Here's another REALLY good article as well on peri-workout nutrition;

    http://www.scottstevensonphd.com/Mea...cle2011Web.pdf
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    I really don't believe it's significant enough to garner any gamebreaking results. I think what really matters is daily/weekly macros and consistency in meeting said macros. You should have glycogen, protein, creatine, and other things stored in your muscles at all times in some amount if you are eating properly. Also If you are eating enough to get some gains or maintain a significant amount of gains you'll probably be eating carbs post workout anyway. Now if I was on a low carb diet I would eat some carbs after working out simply because I get nauseous after working out on low carb from being depleted, but that's another story.
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    Thats what I always understood about 30 grams of carbs such as two teaspoons of strwberry preserves right before your post workout shake as an insulin. This is an interesting thread.
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    It is my understanding that protein alone post workout can spike insulin just as much.
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    Yeah, a friend told me about the suger spike thing post workout. Its an interesting topic. I know one things for sure protein is king. Im not sure if the 30 gram thing is needed now or not. Thanks for giving me advice on what you understand to be the case. This is something that we need to study up on for sure.
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    Fructose is not a quality cho for a post wo shake. Dextrose is the best cho for post wo shake because it is absorbed the quickest. Fructose stays in the blood a lot longer. As stated above earlier, the cho is Necessary in the shake for insulin spike purposes and their Are tons of studies and science to back this. While pro does elicit a response from insulin it has to first enter the Krebs cycle. The whole point of wanting a insulin spike post wo is replenish glycogen to the used muscles ASAP to move the body from catabolic to anabolic and B. to shuttle pro and nutrients into muscle fibers. The reason some argue that cho/pro post wo shake will goto fat is often due to either the wrong type of cho being used or too much. For me, larger groups "back, legs" I use 25-35g pro, and not just whey, 30-45g cho depending on the intensity. It could make for a good debate, but cutting out cho just to avoid gaining fat in a post wo shake is not smart IMO. If you are having a problem with gaining fat, the rest of the daily eating plan should be looked at more carefully. Focus on more starches and veggies and lay off the grains, rice, and fruit
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    I love it when people rush to post without fully reading a thread.
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    Although carbs are not necessary post workout for MPS I don't understand why someone wouldn't use them unless on a ketogenic diet. There is still heightened insulin sensitivity following exercise.

    'If' meal timing has any importance whatsoever it still makes sense to utilise carbs post workout if you are ingesting them throughout the day anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanson52 View Post
    I love it when people rush to post without fully reading a thread.
    The thread is titled Debate....
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    Not debating Muscle Pro Synthesis, The Cho are needed to replenish Glycogen in the muscles so that the body moves from cata to ana state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stri8ted25 View Post
    Not debating Muscle Pro Synthesis, The Cho are needed to replenish Glycogen in the muscles so that the body moves from cata to ana state.
    Which is why many are gravitating to pre & intra carbs.

    As is mentioned in the above articles, along with the reasoning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stri8ted25 View Post
    Not debating Muscle Pro Synthesis, The Cho are needed to replenish Glycogen in the muscles so that the body moves from cata to ana state.
    it was asked in the original post

    Quote Originally Posted by iBulk View Post

    2.) Has anyone read an actual study showing that post-workout carbs boost protein synthesis?
    And to address you glycogen comment and this post

    Quote Originally Posted by Stri8ted25 View Post
    As stated above earlier, the cho is Necessary in the shake for insulin spike purposes and their Are tons of studies and science to back this.... The whole point of wanting a insulin spike post wo is replenish glycogen to the used muscles ASAP to move the body from catabolic to anabolic
    See -
    Do high GI (fast) carbs PWO equate to a faster rate in lbm gains?
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    when insulin is present in the blood stream, lypolisis stops. when I asked pa about this, he felt it'd be more beneficial to go for post w/o carbs and not worry about fat loss, vs no carbs, and keeping lypolisis going. Though this doesn't answer you're question.
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    Loving the discussion, and that thread related to the high/low GI carbs was awesome. ^^

    One thing that was in my original post that I don't think has been discussed here is the fact that post-workout carbs destroys your GH levels on impact. Anyone know of a study and/or thread on this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    it was asked in the original post



    And to address you glycogen comment and this post



    See -
    Do high GI (fast) carbs PWO equate to a faster rate in lbm gains?

    I was waiting for some free time to grab my "goto" book. We all know that pro is made up of...amino acids. That being a given they are able to enter into the blood stream to produce an anbolic response quicker that just pro b/c they don't have to enter to the krebs cycle (already broken down). Study carried out of by University of texas medical branch (Galveston) compared post drinks: Cho/amino drinks demonstrated a 38% more efficiency in pro synthesis than just amino group. Source Anabolic Primer Gerard Thorne

    Also.... During exercise insulin levels decrease, and the hormone itself becomes hypersensitive in response. therefore, if you consume a high pro/cho immediately after workout, the increased sensitivity will IMPROVE glucose uptake to promote protein synthesis and faster recovery. Source Anabolic Primer Gerard Thorne

    BTW "Most hGH is released at night. Peak spikes of hGH release occur around 10 P.M., midnight, and 2 A.M. The logic behind this night-time release is that most of hGH's effects are controlled by other hormones, including the somatomedins, IGH-I and IGH-II. As a result, the effects of hGH are spread out more evenly during the day."Weight-loss Hormone." Better Nutrition (May 2004): 32.
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    You can create an insulin spike with leucine, no carbs necessary if that meets your goals
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    There are studies that show that post workout carbs and protein increase performance, not necessarily size. And protein doesn't boost insulin...insulin is a hormone released to reduce blood sugar (blood glucose/carbs), not to regulate protein.
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    Quote Originally Posted by liftinglifted View Post
    There are studies that show that post workout carbs and protein increase performance, not necessarily size. And protein doesn't boost insulin...insulin is a hormone released to reduce blood sugar (blood glucose/carbs), not to regulate protein.
    Protein doesn't "boost" insulin? So wait, an insulin response is solely based on the reduction of blood sugar and serves no other purpose in the entire human body? Posting this garbage is one thing, trying to correct a guy who stated a very well studied fact regarding Leucine (among a list of other neat things that prompt an insulin "boost") is plain idiotic and a gross oversimplification of an extremely complicated hormone. You should apologize to him, me, the rest of the board members, and humanity in general. May God have mercy on your soul.
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    Insulin Crushes Cortisol, Increases Nitric Oxide, and causes water storage within the Muscle via Glycogen storage, and im sure plenty more I cant bring up off the top of my head

    There is a reason Natural Bodybuilders inject Insulin
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    I think there are a lot of myths regarding insulin. It takes super-physiological levels of insulin to get the anabolic effect it has on the body.


    BioLayne Video Log 18 - Carbohydrate Metabolism: What Intake is Right for You? - YouTube
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    From my experience spiking insulin post workout just makes me bloated and fat... Take your whey protein and then 1h after eat a good meal with carbs and protein like rice with chicken
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudioAnimal View Post
    From my experience spiking insulin post workout just makes me bloated and fat... Take your whey protein and then 1h after eat a good meal with carbs and protein like rice with chicken
    Or hot pockets and italian ice
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